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Opinions on Affirmative Action

What is your opinion of Affirmative Action as it is configured in the United States?


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Honestly, while there is nothing in principle stopping state schools from offering Ivy League educations, in reality, the Ivy's gobble up the best students. Fundamentally, especially nowadays with the internet, the quality of the education comes down to the make-up of the rest of your class. Anyway, most students at the top don't really need in-depth instruction and professors are merely there to guide them along their journey.

I think the real answer is to change the nature of education.

Take the job of "teacher" and split it into two separate roles: class material design and question answering. You don't need all that many of the former, most teachers would become the latter. Groups design the class materials (which completely replaces textbooks--the textbook industry would scream!), students view the stuff on the web and if they have questions they sign onto the class chatroom which is watched by the teacher type that can answer questions if the other students can't.

The class material would not be linear like classes currently are. Instead, you would have multiple explanations for concepts and any time an explanation referred to other concepts it would also link to them (in many cases that would mean linking to other course material.) There would also be a feedback process from the question answerers--if they found a way of getting a point across that wasn't in the class material they would tell the authors who would incorporate it. The result would be as time went on the materials would become more and more comprehensive. Everyone could have Harvard-level classes, we would change from a system where all students must go at the same speed (inherent in a classroom) and the difficulty varies to a system where everyone gets the same material, the speed varies.
 
Faculty are generally judged on quality of research and awards from research, not on teaching.

And there is no magic knowledge taught at Ivy League institutions.

It is the same knowledge taught everywhere.

What these schools do offer students is the exposure to other gifted students.

While it's the same knowledge there's more of it. They put more material in a class and they expect more of the students. 4 years at an Ivy League institution will cram more in than 4 years at State U. That's not to say that you couldn't learn just as much at State U if it were set up to teach for more than 4 years. It's not, though--while you might take more than 4 years to get your degree it doesn't have classes beyond the 400 level other than for graduate students.
 
Poll to follow

Feel free to elaborate on your choice

I wavered between one and two. I finally picked two.which not too surprisingly is the most often selected at 47% when I voted.

The "you can't cure racism by using racism" and "no one alive today was a slave" crowd can't face up to two simple facts, there is still a lot of structural, institutional racism in the US today and that the twin outrages of slavery and then Jim Crow echo through the generations and still negatively impact people today.

Since the problems manifest themselves by race so too must the solutions be applied by race.

My objection to affirmatives action is the obvious one. It is not very effective. It is not accomplishing what it needs to accomplish and the little bit that it does it does at a glacial pace.

And I might add it is obviously, and for me inexplicably, divisive.

I can understand the desire to keep this bread crumb of justice. But if it was up to me, and believe me I don't for one minute think that it is, (Justice Scalia apparently feels that it is his place to do it,) I would give it up and instead I would fight to eliminate poverty completely, for all of the poor.

My now compulsory derail hidden below.


This is an obtainable, realistic goal. It doesn't require an infinite pool of profits to accomplish. Depending on how you define poverty it requires only about $400 billion dollars a year redistributed from profits to wages to do it. An almost trivial sum in this, the richest country on earth. And now, thanks to the more than three decade long, neoliberal economic experiment in income redistribution to enrich the already rich, we know the best way to eliminate poverty. Not with some massive government program like the war on poverty or the reverse income tax, but by simply raising the wages of the working poor, slowly, over time. Raising the minimum wage might be enough to do it, no one knows right now. But if it is not then we would have to work on improving workers bargaining position with their employers.

Conservatively the neoliberal economic policies of the last thirty five years shifted about twenty trillion dollars in total income from the poor and the middle class to the wealthy, with no massive disruptions in the economy, except for appearance every few years of different asset bubbles caused by the huge amount of money involved. But most of the twenty trillion dollars or so is locked into US Treasury Bills, debt that ironically was caused by the main feature of those neoliberal policies, tax cuts for the rich.

We will never have a better time to do this. The main problem with raising the wages of the poor and in turn of the middle class isn't the massive debt caused by the neoliberal policies, it is inflation. Transferring money from profits to wages will increase demand in the economy, because the people who spend much more of their incomes buying things will have more money.

But inflation is currently at historic lows.

Sorry for the derail. Back on track.


We still have a battle to end racism, to wring it out of our justice system. A system that stops a disproportionate number, shoots a disproportionate number, arrests a disproportionate number, convicts a disproportionate number, imprisons a disproportionate number and executes a disproportionate number of blacks. We need to fight the neo-Jim Crow laws that threaten voting rights, to fight zoning laws that exclude and increase the cost of housing, and many more.

It would help massively if the Republican party would stop providing a political home that supports racism and helps to keep it alive.

But none of these are helped by or dependent on Affirmative Action.
 
The problems of racial inequality are created by society. Affirmative action is one tool which can be judiciously used to correct these inequalities, which will raise the standard of living for all.

I don't recall anyone objecting when veterans are given extra points on civil service exams, which gives them an advantage when applying for a job at the post office.

An argument can be made for war veterans to be treated as a special and privileged class, with benefits other people shouldn't have, since they by definition put themselves at risk for the benefit of society. Same reason nobody really freaks out when a police officer gets a free donut. Races are not like that. Being black does not by definition mean you've done something laudable.
 
The problems of racial inequality are created by society. Affirmative action is one tool which can be judiciously used to correct these inequalities, which will raise the standard of living for all.

I don't recall anyone objecting when veterans are given extra points on civil service exams, which gives them an advantage when applying for a job at the post office.

An argument can be made for war veterans to be treated as a special and privileged class, with benefits other people shouldn't have, since they by definition put themselves at risk for the benefit of society. Same reason nobody really freaks out when a police officer gets a free donut. Races are not like that. Being black does not by definition mean you've done something laudable.

I freak out when a police officer gets a free doughnut. Cholesterol is the silent killer and some of us actuallly give a shit when cops' lives are unecessarily put at risk. :mad:
 
Discrimination of any kind is wrong. That is why all college and job applications should have nothing in which to be able to identify the applicant, including name and address. This could lead to a couple hard ships, but any kind of discrimination is wrong, whether it be about race, ideology, color, experience, who procreated and gave you life, favorite sports teams, geography, whether you arrived at the interview on time (or not) - which could be a problem due to not having a name on the application, etc...
 
The problems of racial inequality are created by society. Affirmative action is one tool which can be judiciously used to correct these inequalities, which will raise the standard of living for all.

I don't recall anyone objecting when veterans are given extra points on civil service exams, which gives them an advantage when applying for a job at the post office.

An argument can be made for war veterans to be treated as a special and privileged class, with benefits other people shouldn't have, since they by definition put themselves at risk for the benefit of society. Same reason nobody really freaks out when a police officer gets a free donut. Races are not like that. Being black does not by definition mean you've done something laudable.
I could see special treatment for those who were involved with actual combat missions. I have an in-law that was in the navy for 6 years, and the most dangerous thing he faced was STDs in Asia (and he was wounded). The garbage collectors probably face more hazards than most military people....
 
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