Palestinian Lives Don't Matter*

[Loren Pechtel]

*Unless Israel is to blame

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/opinion/palestinian-protests-gaza-strip-hamas.html

Again, what I've been saying for ages. It's not about protecting the Palestinians, it's about bashing Israel. However, they got it a bit wrong after the asterisk--it should be "unless some way can be found to blame Israel". Whether Israel is actually to blame or not is irrelevant. (For example, shortfalling Hamas rockets.)

 

[Ford]

Again, what I've been saying for ages.

That Israel is infallible and can do nothing wrong?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Am I allowed to see Israel as in the wrong here, and also Palestinian leaders who hate and attack Israeli civilians?

 

[Ford]

Am I allowed to see Israel as in the wrong here...

To hear Loren tell it, no.

 

[steve_bank]

People bash Isreal for several e reasons. One is their treatment of Pa;estinins in seizing land. Netanyahu said explicitly Israel will take whatever land it wants.

Yes terrorism is an issue, but you can not separate the terrorism from the issue of land seizure and what amounts to a cultural ethnic cleansing of Palestinians from areas wanted by Israel. It is despicable.

It does not get covered over here, there is opposition to settlements in Israel. All we hear is the Netanyahu lackeys.

Support over here is generally tied in with conservative Christian prophesy and the second coming. Netanyahu plays them skillfully.

Christian conservatives are Israel right or wrong. If you criticize you are an anti semite.

 

[laughing dog]

Again, what I've been saying for ages.

That Israel is infallible and can do nothing wrong?

No, that Palestinian lives don't matter.

 

[steve_bank]

Israel is not Nazi Germany, but I'd think the WWII Warsaw ghetto Jewish experience would be a source of reflection.


While Israel is not Nazi Germany, the underlying principle is the same. The Nazis beloved they had an historical manifest destiny to conquer. What we hear is Netanyahu claiming Israel because a god gave it to them. The same kind of religious basis for Iran and Saudi Arabia. Religious justification is the cause of the conflict.

Jews lost Jerusalem 200yeras ago, but it is their god given right to seize land and displace Palestinians who trace back to the time.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Did anyone actually read the article?

 

[laughing dog]

Did anyone actually read the article?

Do you mean the opinion piece by a neo-conservative supporter of Israel?

 

[steve_bank]

Did anyone actually read the article?

No need, we know that for whatever reason you are an Israel right or wrong shill. You would never reference anything to the contrary.

A few years back I looked at the available English language media in Israel, the Palestinians, Egypt and other places.

The Palestinian outlets are essentially anti Israel hate speech. Egypt surprisingly has a diversity of political thought.

Sane with Israel. Much lie here there are multiple factions in Israel not all supporting the conservative Netanyahu position on settlements and Palestinians. I watched an interview with several past Israeli political and military leaders. They think abandoning the Palestinians after the wars is a main reason for the terrorism and anti Israel sentiment. They also thought overt aggression against Iran could be disastrous for Israel. You will not hear these views in the American media.

 

[Arctish]

Did anyone actually read the article?

I did.

Then I went looking for independent verification. And guess what I found?

Show

PLO President Abbas, Amnesty International, and the UN have all condemned the use of violence by Hamas' security forces against protesters. Abbas even said that Hamas' leaders belong in "the garbage bin of history". But for some reason the author of the article Loren posted never mentioned that, probably because it doesn't fit in with his belief that people only care when it's Israel being the ruthless oppressor.

 

[steve_bank]

t is not a secret Abbas is a player getting money from different sources. His words are worthless. Hamas and Fatah fought a civil war unrelated to Israel.

There are issues with Israel. That being said the main obstacle to peace as I see it is that the Palestinians are continually shitting on each other. They are unable to stabilize into a working govt and democratic process. Neither side accepts the other.

Jordan annexed the West Bank before Israeli occupation leading to a civil war.

Even without Israel the region would be a shit hole. Centuries of monarchy, ethnic, tribal, and sectarian conflict having nothing to do with Israel.

Whatever criticisms there are of Isreal it is a tiny island of stability in a sea of shit.

The area is riddled with instability, violence, and devastation. Don't forget the Lebanese Civil War. Beirut was destroyed. A brother was in the Marine peacekeeping force. He left just before the barracks was bombed. When you look at Israel you have to look at the entire region and the last centuries. After WWII warder Europe developed NATO and the EU. No such thing is possible in the region. They have no leadership. Anyone brokering peace and compromise risks life.

The Arab sates is an archaic set of monarchies, dictatorships. Iran is an archaic theocracy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September

Black September (Arabic: أيلول الأسود‎; Aylūl Al-Aswad) was a conflict fought in Jordan between the Jordanian Armed Forces (JAF), under the leadership of King Hussein, and the Palestine Liberation Organisation (PLO), under the leadership of Yasser Arafat, primarily between 16 and 27 September 1970, with certain actions continuing until 17 July 1971.

After Jordan lost control of the West Bank to Israel in 1967, Palestinian fighters known as fedayeen moved their bases to Jordan and stepped up their attacks on Israel and Israeli-occupied territories. One Israeli retaliation on a PLO camp based in Karameh, a Jordanian town along the border with the West Bank, developed into a full-scale battle. The perceived joint Jordanian-Palestinian victory in the 1968 Battle of Karameh led to an upsurge in Arab support for the Palestinian fighters in Jordan. The PLO's strength in Jordan grew, and by the beginning of 1970, groups within the PLO had started to openly call for the overthrow of the Hashemite monarchy.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatah–Hamas_conflict

Political deadlock

The semi-constitutional and semi-presidential Basic Law gave President and Government a shared political power.[44][45] Fatah refused to cooperate with Hamas.[44][46] The powerful Fatah-backed President Abbas was supported by the international community and more or less tolerated by Israel. The Hamas-dominated Palestinian Authority and the parliament on the other hand were boycotted, and international financial aid was rendered via Abbas, bypassing the Palestinian Government.[45] Because Fatah and Hamas did not co-operate, the parliament became dysfunctional and the PA suffered financial distress.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Even without Israel the region would be a shit hole. Centuries of monarchy, ethnic, tribal, and sectarian conflict having nothing to do with Israel.

This is true. But it is also true that Israel plays a key role in the misery of every day Palestinians.

I really don't think Israel has any claim of the moral high ground here so long as they keep Palestinians restricted and refuse to grant Palestinians either freedom as an independent state or Israeli citizenship with full and equal rights.

 

[steve_bank]

Even without Israel the region would be a shit hole. Centuries of monarchy, ethnic, tribal, and sectarian conflict having nothing to do with Israel.

This is true. But it is also true that Israel plays a key role in the misery of every day Palestinians.

I really don't think Israel has any claim of the moral high ground here so long as they keep Palestinians restricted and refuse to grant Palestinians either freedom as an independent state or Israeli citizenship with full and equal rights.

Agreed. It is a compex issue and I try to take a balnced view.

Yet today Hamas is launching missiles on Israel which serves no purpose, funded by Iran. Israel retaliates and the cyle repeats. Iran taunts Israel periodically into responses keeping alive the hatred against Israel.

Terrorism in Gaza is now a paying profession. While Arafat liked to wear drab military fatigues and present himself a s a simple man, he died rich never holding a job.

I believe the Palestinians are suffering far more from the extremists who actually control Gaza. A stasis quo or a peace with Israel means they are out of a jib, They get money from both Iran and anti Israel Arabs.

A Palestinian Gandhi or Martin Luther King would not last long in Gaza or the West Bank.

While there are issues on both sides, I put most of it on Iran and the terrorist who are stoking conflict they know is not winnable. Israel gave up Gaza and instead of pursuing prosperity they radicalized. Before the Intifada and Israel tightening the border there was trade between Gaza and Israel.

 

[Arctish]

Even without Israel the region would be a shit hole. Centuries of monarchy, ethnic, tribal, and sectarian conflict having nothing to do with Israel.

This is true. But it is also true that Israel plays a key role in the misery of every day Palestinians.

I really don't think Israel has any claim of the moral high ground here so long as they keep Palestinians restricted and refuse to grant Palestinians either freedom as an independent state or Israeli citizenship with full and equal rights.

Agreed. It is a compex issue and I try to take a balnced view.

Yet today Hamas is launching missiles on Israel which serves no purpose, funded by Iran.

The purpose of having missiles to be able to strike deep into someone else's territory. The purpose of firing one off every now and then is to prove you aren't bluffing.

Israel retaliates and the cyle repeats. Iran taunts Israel periodically into responses keeping alive the hatred against Israel.

Terrorism in Gaza is now a paying profession. While Arafat liked to wear drab military fatigues and present himself a s a simple man, he died rich never holding a job.

I believe the Palestinians are suffering far more from the extremists who actually control Gaza. A stasis quo or a peace with Israel means they are out of a jib, They get money from both Iran and anti Israel Arabs.

A Palestinian Gandhi or Martin Luther King would not last long in Gaza or the West Bank.

While there are issues on both sides, I put most of it on Iran and the terrorist who are stoking conflict they know is not winnable. Israel gave up Gaza and instead of pursuing prosperity they radicalized. Before the Intifada and Israel tightening the border there was trade between Gaza and Israel.

If you use Google to search for a Palestinian Gandhi you'll find there have been several. One was forced into exile in the US by Israel. One has spent years in Israeli prisons, much like Gandhi himself was imprisoned by the British. Another one is currently living in Gaza but his situation is precarious.

The thing about Gandhi is that he was successful in forcing the British out of India. Palestinian Gandhis are working to force the Zionists out of Palestine, or at least out of the parts they were promised would become a Palestinian State when the Oslo Accords were negotiated, and to force the opening of the containment wall around Gaza. That's not an activity the current Israeli government tolerates. So all those potential Gandhis are labeled criminals and the threat they pose to Zionism is neutralized.

 

[steve_bank]

You need to look at the geopolitics.

Iran's regional street creds are based on calling for the destruction of Israel. After the last Arab Israel war the Arabs were emasculated. The Arabs leaders promised that Israel would be destroyed, It was a Muslim and Arab humiliation.

They gave up on war and turned to funding terrorism. The the propaganda campaign began.

Periodically a few missiles are lunched and Israel retaliates. It keeps the image of Israeli aggression alive. Once in a while they go too far and Israeli invades Gaza. Yeterdat the terrorists used newr long rabge missles and it looked like Israel would again go to war.

Maybe you do not understand the reginal street lvel haterd of Israel. I saw some of it on Iranian media. An anti Jew animation reminiscent of Nazi priopagabda.

It is touched on our news once in a while. Saudi money funds terrorism along with Iran.

Lebanon's govt is not really in control. There is a large Hamas contingent in Lebanon well armed by Iran. Political kidnappings and kilings are common.

No one in the region wants peacemakers. As pointed out yesterday the recent attack strengthens Netanyahu's position as a defender. Both sides are playing rational politics.

Israel at one point did trade and for peace, and in return got more terrorism.

If it was not for Israel I'd say let them all go on killing until they get sick of it. Syria is gone with millions of refugees. Yemen has been described as a graveyard. Lebanon was decoyed but recovered somewhat, dominated by extremist factions. Iran and Saudi Arabia are dictatorships. We handed Iraq democracy and freedom and factions turned on each other.

With the Arab and Persian oil the region could be a showplace for the world. They are choosing conflict over peace and prosperity. To hell with them.

 

[Derec]

The purpose of having missiles to be able to strike deep into someone else's territory. The purpose of firing one off every now and then is to prove you aren't bluffing.

And Israel proved they are not bluffing by bombing Gaza. I wish they would really take the kid gloves off and resume the policy of targeting terrorist leaders like Haniyeh and Sinwar.

If you use Google to search for a Palestinian Gandhi you'll find there have been several. One was forced into exile in the US by Israel. One has spent years in Israeli prisons, much like Gandhi himself was imprisoned by the British. Another one is currently living in Gaza but his situation is precarious.

Why these riddles? Who are the people you have in mind?

The thing about Gandhi is that he was successful in forcing the British out of India. Palestinian Gandhis are working to force the Zionists out of Palestine,

By which these "Gandhis" mean abolishing Israel and replacing it with an Islamic "Palestine". Gandhi did not seek to destroy Britain.

or at least out of the parts they were promised would become a Palestinian State when the Oslo Accords were negotiated, and to force the opening of the containment wall around Gaza. That's not an activity the current Israeli government tolerates. So all those potential Gandhis are labeled criminals and the threat they pose to Zionism is neutralized.

You forgot demanding that millions of descendants of 1948 refugees be allowed to settle in Israel. That is an absolute non-starter. And these "Gandhis" are labelled criminals when they commit crimes. Again, a bit difficult to comment more specifically if you shroud the identity of these supposed "Gandhis" in riddles.

 

[Derec]

This is true. But it is also true that Israel plays a key role in the misery of every day Palestinians.

It is actually the Palestinian leadership who plays the key role in suffering of everyday Palestinians.
Take Hamas. An outright Islamofascist terrorist group, they misappropriate funds to enrich their upper echelons and to fund terrorism. The Gaza infrastructure and economy are in shambles, while the Hamas elites enjoy luxury shops, restaurants etc. They also spend unholy amounts of money on rockets, tunnels etc.
When the people of Gaza started protesting against Hamas, they not only brutally put down the protests, but they also shot rockets at Tel Aviv as a diversion from internal problems.

PA is only better by comparison. Mahmoud Abbas is in 15th year of his 4 year term. PA funds families of dead and imprisoned terrorists using funding from US and EU (that prompted Trump administration to cut funding), they name things for murderous terrorists, and the major party in the PA, Fatah has not one but two terrorist wings: Tanzim and Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades.

I really don't think Israel has any claim of the moral high ground here so long as they keep Palestinians restricted and refuse to grant Palestinians either freedom as an independent state or Israeli citizenship with full and equal rights.

Palestinians had plenty of opportunities for their own state ever since 1948. But they never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity. Instead of seeking a negotiated peace that would lead to a Palestinian state (for the first time in history, btw), Arabs in general and Palestinians in particular choose war and terror in futile and self-destructive attempts to destroy Israel.

 

[Derec]

While Israel is not Nazi Germany, the underlying principle is the same.

Actually if anybody in this conflict is like Nazis, it would be the Palestinians, especially Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

Jews lost Jerusalem 200yeras ago, but it is their god given right to seize land and displace Palestinians who trace back to the time.

200 years ago? Btw, Palestinians never had Jerusalem as a capital. There never was a State of Palestine and Jerusalem was never a capital of any Arab state. Muslims are like toddlers that want a toy because another child is playing with it. Jerusalem is a city of central importance to Judaism. So what do Muslims do? They build a mosque atop the Temple Mound, deny that there ever was a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem and invent some cockamamie story of Mo flying to Jerusalem on Pegasus or something. They then demand that they should control Jerusalem because of these things.

 

[Arctish]

You need to look at the geopolitics.

Iran's regional street creds are based on calling for the destruction of Israel. After the last Arab Israel war the Arabs were emasculated. The Arabs leaders promised that Israel would be destroyed, It was a Muslim and Arab humiliation.

They gave up on war and turned to funding terrorism. The the propaganda campaign began.

Periodically a few missiles are lunched and Israel retaliates. It keeps the image of Israeli aggression alive. Once in a while they go too far and Israeli invades Gaza. Yeterdat the terrorists used newr long rabge missles and it looked like Israel would again go to war.

I do look at the geopolitics. And I know if you aren't looking at American, European, Russian, and Asian interests in the region, you're missing a huge part of the picture.

Where did Israel get its military might? How can it afford to keep building settlements and maintain security around them while also providing universal health care and free education to its citizens? How does it keep its critics in the international community at bay? Why do Republican candidates for President travel to Israel and meet with Netanyahu? The answers to all those questions and more are found in the geopolitics of the region, which is why I pay attention to it.

Maybe you do not understand the reginal street lvel haterd of Israel. I saw some of it on Iranian media. An anti Jew animation reminiscent of Nazi priopagabda.

It is touched on our news once in a while. Saudi money funds terrorism along with Iran.

I've never been to the Middle East. I'll take your word for it wrt Iranian media. But I'm pretty sure the view from the street changes depending which street you're on.

Palestinians in Jerusalem are being forcibly evicted from their homes so those places can be given to Jews. Gazans protesting their imprisonment are being shot, even when they are hundreds of yards away from the separation barrier, as are the medics who come to evacuate the wounded. Palestinian farmers in the West Bank are being harassed, their olive trees burned, and their water supplies cut off. Israeli citizens who aren't Jews are relocated to slums so nice new housing can be built for other Israelis of the preferred ethnic/religious group. The view from those streets shows Israel fueling the fires as much as anyone else, if not moreso.

Lebanon's govt is not really in control. There is a large Hamas contingent in Lebanon well armed by Iran. Political kidnappings and kilings are common.

No one in the region wants peacemakers. As pointed out yesterday the recent attack strengthens Netanyahu's position as a defender. Both sides are playing rational politics.

Israel at one point did trade and for peace, and in return got more terrorism.

Are you talking about Gaza?

Gaza was never part of Israel, so Israel couldn't have traded it for anything. And any peace deal that actually surrendered the Zionist claim to Gaza would have required a huge shift in Israeli policy. That never happened. Israel has never conceded any part of the Zionist claim to historic Israel to anyone at any time.

What Israel traded was maintaining a handful of illegal settlements in Gaza for keeping IDF soldiers safer by stationing them in hardened bunkers and sniper posts on the Separation Barrier rather than exposed on the ground inside Gaza.

If it was not for Israel I'd say let them all go on killing until they get sick of it. Syria is gone with millions of refugees. Yemen has been described as a graveyard. Lebanon was decoyed but recovered somewhat, dominated by extremist factions. Iran and Saudi Arabia are dictatorships. We handed Iraq democracy and freedom and factions turned on each other.

With the Arab and Persian oil the region could be a showplace for the world. They are choosing conflict over peace and prosperity. To hell with them.

If it was not for Israel you wouldn't care about the killings? That's interesting, especially given the title of this thread.

Somewhat off topic:

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I don't agree with your opinion that we handed Iraq democracy and freedom. It was pretty clear right from the start that we wanted a puppet regime in Baghdad. When our first pick, Chalabi, turned out to be *ahem* increasingly unreliable, we were stuck with either allowing the Iraqis genuine democracy and freedom (totally unacceptable to the neo-cons since they would most likely have voted for someone who would demand American forces be withdrawn and not allowed Iraq's oil money to be used to pay for the invasion) or going with a different figurehead taking orders from our guy in Baghdad, Paul Bremer. We chose the figurehead. As United Nations special envoy to Iraq Lakhdar Brahimi put it, "I sometimes say, I'm sure he doesn't mind me saying that, Bremer is the dictator of Iraq. He has the money. He has the signature. Nothing happens without his agreement in this country."