• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Parenting Megathread

Rhea

Cyborg with a Tiara
Staff member
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
13,138
Location
Recluse
Basic Beliefs
Humanist
My daughter (6) is driving us nuts at school. Her behavior is all over the place. We have a run of decent days... or a run of bad days... or a run of mostly good days with a but. Go to pick her up and the teacher tells us that our daughter rescued a baby from a burning car in the morning, but then tried to collaborate with ISIS in the afternoon during music class. This kid is the queen of drama queens.


Something we often forget (and in contrast to Toni’s comments where she was asked a lot and didn’t know the answer, which is also true and perhaps related to this but worth asking nevertheless) is to ask the child what they were thinking. When my son got into all kinds of pickles, I learned to stop asking “why did you disrupt them, or, why did you break that thing, or why did you almost hurt so and so” and instead ask
- what were you doing?
- what were you thinking while you were doing that?
- what did it feel like to you?
- What did you expect to happen?

The answers were profoundly useful. And gave a much better communication between us as to what was actually wrong instead of my assumption of what was wrong. And SOOO much more productive to correcting his behavior instrad of saying, “you can’t hurt people,” with him just thinking (accurately when it comes right down to it,) “I wasn’t” and ignoring the correction. Instead I could say, “you have to think through whether that action could end up breaking/hurting/disrupting because if it ends up doing that, even if you didn’t mean it, you will be responsible.” Now he knows to think things through which is reasonable, instead of “not being bad” whih is perplexing and opaque to him. He never actually wanted to break anything or hurt anyone, so once he gained an ear from an adult on what to do to avoid it (in 4-year old terms) he was happy to oblige.

Not perfect, of course, while he did get significantly better at not causing harm, there were still those talks even up through middle school that included, “It doesn’t actually matter how curious you were about what the older boy’s sweat might taste like, it was not acceptable to walk up an lick his arm from wrist to bicep, and he is understandably a little freaked out by the experience. Instead you need to ask an adult and we can arrange for a way for you to taste sweat. (Ew!)”


Anyway, I learned so very much by pausing and asking with no leading questions. Things I never expected were on his mind. And he learned that someone cared about his point of view and, to him, “the truth”. It gave me a lot of insight that was necessary to find a solution.
 

Tharmas

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2001
Messages
1,495
Location
Texas
Basic Beliefs
Pantheist
I am awestruck by some of the stories and thoughtfulness in these posts, mostly because I don't consider myself to have been a very good parent, and in some ways was no doubt a very bad parent. Of my two kids one turned out fairly well in spite of her childhood. The other has had persistent problems. He seems to be getting on an even keel now finally, at age fifty two.
 

crazyfingers

Supermagnon
Staff member
Joined
Mar 15, 2001
Messages
3,884
Location
Massachusetts USA
Basic Beliefs
Secular Humanism
Today was and still is horrible. My daughter was and is fuming all day sending the negativity through the home. Rage in her voice. Talking back. Calling us stupid. Refusing to follow the rules of the home. Her brothers are trying to sleep and she's purposely making threatening sounding noises in her room to scare them. I told her to quiet down. She gets louder. She is outside now at 10:20pm.

She tried to slam her door and I stopped it slamming shut. I told her that's not how to shut a door. She says there is no other way and fumes.

Worst she's scaring her younger brothers. The youngest has PTSD because of her. I'm sure that I would be diagnosed with PTSD from her and them all if I had someone to give me a diagnosis. My wife too.

She is incapable of taking care of herself in this world but if this keeps up we can't have an 18 year old continuing to traumatize us and the boys. She can't be abusive to us and live in our home.

Right now I believe she needs a group home. She actually does too. I hope DMH can arrange it. We can't take this escalation.

I hope tomorrow is better.
 

crazyfingers

Supermagnon
Staff member
Joined
Mar 15, 2001
Messages
3,884
Location
Massachusetts USA
Basic Beliefs
Secular Humanism
She is finally in bed. Her sensor on her door is on to wake me up if she comes out of her room. Our youngest boy is sleeping on the bed in the porch. My wife is the second line of defense, sleeping on the couch downstairs.

I had hoped we were done with this. But we have had to spend the night like this for over 10 years.
 

crazyfingers

Supermagnon
Staff member
Joined
Mar 15, 2001
Messages
3,884
Location
Massachusetts USA
Basic Beliefs
Secular Humanism
She hates being 18 years old with responsibilities. She wants all privileges of being 18 but won't follow the rules of our home. She is messed up and becomes abusive towards all of us. By psychological definition, when she turned 18 her diagnosis of Reactive Attachment Disorder is redefined simply as sociopath. Emotionally she is more like 7 years old.

Sorry it's been a very hard day dealing with her while trying to keep her younger brothers safe
 

Rhea

Cyborg with a Tiara
Staff member
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
13,138
Location
Recluse
Basic Beliefs
Humanist
That’s brutal. I am so sorry you have to struggle with that - and know your younger children suffer from its effects. I hope she can get a space in the group home for her sake as well as the sake of others. My sympathies. :(
 

crazyfingers

Supermagnon
Staff member
Joined
Mar 15, 2001
Messages
3,884
Location
Massachusetts USA
Basic Beliefs
Secular Humanism
Another rage tonight by our daughter. Yelling, banging, swearing at us. I called mental health crisis line to talk to her.she refused to talk. Crisis suggested calling 911 since daughter is 18 they don't come here any more.

Txted her therapeutic mentor even though sunday evening. She called her. She yelled and raged on the phone. Mentor came over and they went out.

She came home and had dinner then she got her blankets saying she was sleeping outside. (In the slush. Still winter in massachusetts) wife talked her out of it and finally she cried and apologized.

The rest of us can't continue to take this.
 

Rhea

Cyborg with a Tiara
Staff member
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
13,138
Location
Recluse
Basic Beliefs
Humanist
Listening, hearing. Just - here for you.
 

Toni

Contributor
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
14,694
Location
NOT laying back and thinking of England
Basic Beliefs
Peace on Earth, goodwill towards all
That sounds really brutal for all of you. I hope things settle down and you are able to help her transition to a different environment.

And mostly that you and the rest of you get the support you need.
 

southernhybrid

Contributor
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
6,449
Location
Georgia, US
Basic Beliefs
atheist
I too am very sorry for all that your family is dealing with CF, and if it helps you to share your frustrations with others, I hope you will keep venting to us. I can't imagine how I would cope if I were in your situation, but it does sound as if your daughter needs to be in a group home at the very least or some type of facility that could better deal with her behavior. When I worked as a nurse in a personal care home, we had a couple of very emotionally disturbed young folks who lived there for a few years. I don't know what eventually happened to them once they moved out, but they also had a lot of behavior problems that made it difficult for the staff. But, in a facility, at least there are always staff members available 24/7, which must be better than what this young woman's behavior is doing to your family.

I think our mental health system in the US is greatly in need of more resources, I'm sad to say. I hope you can get your daughter placed somewhere soon before her behavior continues to damage the integrity of your family. :(
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
35,638
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
That is a terribly exhausting strain everyone is dealing with. I hope you can get the support from outside that is needed, to apparently just hold things together. Wish things would improve.
 

crazyfingers

Supermagnon
Staff member
Joined
Mar 15, 2001
Messages
3,884
Location
Massachusetts USA
Basic Beliefs
Secular Humanism
Daughter 18 and son 16 ride the same SPED van to their out of district school. Because of the history involved we insisted they they could only ride together if there was a bus monitor. But the kids claim the monitor can't hear and sleeps through the ride.

Last friday daughter claims son was pounding his pud in the seat in back and that she got a peek which grossed her out. She told people at her school about it and that the monitor was sleeping. She says it happened again this week while the monitor was sleeping. She also told her theraputic mentor all about it.

She says her school reported it to the school district and her theraputic mentor told us today that because she's a mandated reported she has filed a 51A abuse and neglect report with DCF against the bus monitor.

Our trouble is how to avoid this whole thing not traumatizing both kids. And while 16 year old boys will pound their puds, it has to be in private!

And of course daughter and son are both ripshit mad at each other.
 

rousseau

Contributor
Joined
Jun 23, 2010
Messages
12,172
So one of the things I hear over and over again from peers is the problem of sleep deprivation when they're raising newborns and infants. Wondering, what things have people done to mitigate that problem? Or do you just need to power through it?
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
35,638
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
So one of the things I hear over and over again from peers is the problem of sleep deprivation when they're raising newborns and infants. Wondering, what things have people done to mitigate that problem? Or do you just need to power through it?
In general, you march through it. Needs to be done, so it gets done.

Men, this is a good argument for breast feeding, it could save you waking up to feed the infant if there isn't pre-pumped milk.
Women, this is a good argument for using just formula. Kick the husband in the shins and tell him it is his turn to feed the baby.
 

Toni

Contributor
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
14,694
Location
NOT laying back and thinking of England
Basic Beliefs
Peace on Earth, goodwill towards all
So one of the things I hear over and over again from peers is the problem of sleep deprivation when they're raising newborns and infants. Wondering, what things have people done to mitigate that problem? Or do you just need to power through it?

It's so variable and depends very much on the baby you have and your own sleep habits.

Some of my kids were good sleepers from the beginning. As in: sleeping through the night by 6-8 weeks. I made a real point of up at night was just to feed, change diapers, soothe back to sleep. I know that I don't do well when I am sleep deprived and so it was important for everybody that baby slept decently well. One of the kids was not a good sleeper and did not nap until he was nearly 3 years old. By 'didn't nap' I mean: he slept while I was pushing him in the stroller home from dropping off his sibling at nursery school but the moment the stroller stopped he was awake and unhappy. And nope, pushing the stroller back and forth to sooth him did not help. This coincided with my husband being extremely overwhelmed with his work obligations. So, the first year was rough and then it did get progressively better/more predictable as time went on. But this was the kid who also got repeated ear infections as a toddler, had teething issues and basically, any upset to his schedule was an upset in his sleeping. Yes, I was sleep deprived. Husband was sleep deprived the first year after which his work situation changed and hours were basically much more normal. That kid had colic which is terrible and the pediatricians were not terribly helpful with the issue. Partly because he was truly a beautiful baby: plump and rosy and gorgeous, gained weight like a champ and slept beatifically at the doctor's appointments so they just thought I was exaggerating, I think. I ended up doing what I was sure I never would do and gave him a pacifier. It saved the lives of everyone in the family. Yes, he held onto it much longer than I thought was ideal but we survived and he is a happy, healthy, productive adult and nobody died. And we had other kids after so there's that.

My kids were breastfed, with supplements from formula (first one--I worked long hours). The deal was that unless he was sick or extra tired, husband brought baby to me to feed at night and I put the baby back to bed.

Here's the thing: my husband likes babies. I mean: he really likes babies. I saw right away that some of our male friends looked horrified or scared at the idea of even touching a young baby. The first time my husband held our firstborn, I remember thinking it was like watching a child at Christmas/allthebestbirthdays rolled into one--my husband, that is. Baby was sleeping. But hubby was in love and that love did not wane as we got into the mundane diapers/diaper rash/feeding/cleaning oatmeal off of the floor (DO NOT LET IT STAND more than ONE SECOND--It turns to CEMENT and I am not even kidding), teething. When we went out, he always wanted to be the one pushing the stroller, or carrying the baby or whatever. When we were grocery shopping in our poor student days and looking continually grubby and scruffy, I would pop down another aisle to get something quick and come back to see some random woman practically drooling over my husband who was obviously having the time of his life, pushing a baby in a grocery cart, picking out apples or cereal or whatever. I'm not even kidding.

That he loved babies and young children was not a surprise. I knew that before we were even dating seriously. In fact, it was a requirement on my part that I didn't even realize I had until I saw him with someone's toddler brother and realized he wasn't kidding: he likes kids and is a natural with them. Anyway, he really enjoyed playing with kids and was a hit at every single birthday party. He still does play with other people's kids and babies and enjoys it thoroughly.

We saw child rearing as a group activity: aside from breastfeeding, it was as much his job as mine, although by the time the second one came along, I wasn't being paid for work. But when he was home, he was the parent and he was no stranger to laundry or changing diapers or dishes or cooking. It was not 'my job' any more than it was 'his job' except when he was at work.

We had a group of friends who had kids the same age and we all had a lot in common, lived in the same apartments and so there was a lot of comradery and sharing of baby clothes, and recipes, and tips and meals and all of that.

I won't lie: there were times when I sat with a baby thinking to myself "What was I thinking???? Who thought this was a good idea?????" and at least one 3 day period that baby and I spent in a rocking chair, each of us crying. But hey, let's be real: haven't we all done that sometime as adults, even without a baby???

Having babies who grow up to be kids is daunting, and exhausting and challenging and the most fun I think it is possible to have with most of your clothes on. I mean: when's the last time you went down a slide at the playground? Played in a sand box? Played with a train or cars? Read Good Night Moon? Blown a dandelion's fluff? Counted piggies? You get to learn fairy tales all over again. You learn new ones. You get to see the world through new eyes and you learn to live in the moment--because it can all go to hell in a handbasket in a New York minute--

Wait--sorry: you were asking about sleep deprivation. With the first child, it is important to nap whenever the baby does. In the beginning, don't worry about the mess because there will be mess and you will not believe how the tiny tiny baby with all its tiny tiny clothes have taken over your entire home in a matter of seconds it seems, but really, at least 3 days.

Sleeping is most important for the mother whose body is recovering from pregnancy and childbirth. This cannot be emphasized enough. She needs sleep, she needs to shower, she needs good food and a lot of liquid. Also, if she is breasfeeding (includes pumping), her body is consuming a lot of calories for milk production. Her sleep and nutrition needs must be met in order for her to be able to recover as well and as fully and as quickly as possible and for her to be able to feed the baby.

Babies are not that rewarding in the beginning. They sleep, eat, mess their diapers and cry. This is the first few weeks. That smile may be a gas bubble but go ahead and believe it is a smile. It will help you.

Dads need to suck it up and take on more of the household chores such as cooking, dishes, laundry. She may be restricted from driving for a while if she's had a c-section so you get to do the errands and also take baby to its first appointments with mom, too. This passes and you will forget all about it soon enough. But it is much, much, much better if she gets the rest and sleep and showers and nutrition and liquids she needs to recover well and feed baby.

You can sleep at work. Probably. Honestly, adrenaline does kick in and while you are sleep deprived for a while, it is quickly forgotten.

Don't be afraid to limit visitors. Stand up for your wife. Period. Even if it's her best friend or her mother or sister or especially your mom or sister. Even if you think she's a little crazy for caring that the baby isn't dressed in the perfect out fit or that she or the house looks a mess or whatever. Suck it up. Your contribution to the creation of this little being took maybe 10 minutes. Hers took the better part of a year. Squirting out some sperm was pleasurable. Pushing out a baby is not. She had it much, much, much harder than you did, no matter how hard she squeezes your hand during the birth or how much she swears at you. There is NO comparison.

When she's up to walking to the corner store for bread or visiting a friend or whatever: suck it up, stay home with baby and deal.

Change diapers, even the stinky ones. Without being asked and without expecting applause or even mild recognition. Feed the baby when it's not breastfeeding. Rock, walk, soothe the baby. Bathe the baby. First of all, the mother needs the break. Secondly, this is how you first form your bond with your baby. Don't think of it as stinky yucky mess: think of it as an opportunity to spend time with your kid.

NEVER tuck a t-shirt into a diaper. All that stuff wicks up. Babies sometimes poop in baths. They spit up. It's not personal. I'm just saying.

Also: I learned quickly to leave my work clothes by the front door the night before. I left early so I'd feed/change baby and then get ready for work, dressing as the last step before I walked out the door. Because trust me, if you hold the baby while talking to your spouse when you are all dressed up and ready to go, the diaper will leak or the baby will puke or both.
 

Tharmas

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2001
Messages
1,495
Location
Texas
Basic Beliefs
Pantheist
Our firstborn was a happy baby who slept 8 hours per night from the time he was about 2 weeks old. But don't hold it against me. Our second was a fussy, fussy baby who required a great deal of attention at all times of day.
 

Toni

Contributor
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
14,694
Location
NOT laying back and thinking of England
Basic Beliefs
Peace on Earth, goodwill towards all
So one of the things I hear over and over again from peers is the problem of sleep deprivation when they're raising newborns and infants. Wondering, what things have people done to mitigate that problem? Or do you just need to power through it?
In general, you march through it. Needs to be done, so it gets done.

Men, this is a good argument for breast feeding, it could save you waking up to feed the infant if there isn't pre-pumped milk.
Women, this is a good argument for using just formula. Kick the husband in the shins and tell him it is his turn to feed the baby.

The deal is: hubby gets up, changes the diaper and brings the baby to the mother who is still in bed. Mom returns baby to its own bed at some point.

With practice, this can all be accomplished without turning on too many lights or even opening your eyes fully or being very much awake.
 

rousseau

Contributor
Joined
Jun 23, 2010
Messages
12,172

Thanks for the detailed reply.

Limiting visitors (and other stuff in there) are great ideas, I get the sense we're going to have to set some firm boundaries with both her and my family.
 

Rhea

Cyborg with a Tiara
Staff member
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
13,138
Location
Recluse
Basic Beliefs
Humanist
I think one of the best things you can teach your kids is to fend for themselves, let them take little risks and see how they get on before intervening.

Totally agree with this. Making sure they have opportunity to learn what it feels like to do somethign for themselves and take a risk to do it are so very useful later in life, so that when it’s time for life on their own, it’s not the first time.
 

James Brown

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2005
Messages
3,572
Location
Texas
Basic Beliefs
Agnostic Atheist
Instead of saying, "Be Careful", tell your kids, "Pay Attention."

Instead of saying “be careful” say “pay attention.” I picked up this great tip from Richard Louv’s Last Child in the Woods. Constantly saying “be careful” paints the world as an inherently perilous, overly dangerous place, and ingrains a cautious mindset into kids. In contrast, “pay attention” (or “watch what you’re doing”) encourages children to be more aware of their body and their surroundings — a mindset we want our kids to cultivate whether they’re doing risky things or not.

The world doesn’t need more careful children — it needs more wise, perceptive,
braveones.
 

Rhea

Cyborg with a Tiara
Staff member
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
13,138
Location
Recluse
Basic Beliefs
Humanist
So one of the things I hear over and over again from peers is the problem of sleep deprivation when they're raising newborns and infants. Wondering, what things have people done to mitigate that problem? Or do you just need to power through it?

Here’s how we got through it pretty well:

I nursed both kids for 15 months, including pumping at work, so all feedings were either live-from-the-tap or reheated human milk.

First off - at newborn first two weeks, I was recovering from a cesarean birth (I like “cesarean birth”, not “c-section”) so, yeah, stomach cut open hip-to-hip. So for first two weeks while the milk is produced at very high fat concentration, I did the feeding. Husband would wake, get the baby, bring baby to me for feeding. Then he would take the baby, change the baby and lie the baby back down, at which point I would be asleep again. I never changed a diaper until my oldest was two weeks old. Husband was only home from work for the first of those weeks, but he still had more energy than me. When you are nursing you are providing ALL of the calories for the now-growing full baby. Like 500 calories per day. Plus recovering from childbirth. So he was all the hands on deck

After the first two weeks we did the shifts. I would pump just before going to bed at 10:00pm. Anything the baby needed from 10pm to 2am was not my problem. I slept. After 2 am until 6 am, anything the baby needed was not his problem. He slept. That gave each of us 4 hours of completely uninterrupted sleep every night, plus another 1 or 2 with interruptions. And that was enough. We did very well with that. Because it was agreed beforehand who was on-call, the person at rest could REALLY rest. My husband is a night owl and I am an early bird, so the shift designations were good for us.

In addition to pumping before bed, I would also add additional pumping times so that there was always an excess of milk in the freezer. The woman’s body will follow a schedule. So if the baby is eating every 4 hours or so, and I add a pumping at the two hour mark 3 times, the body knows it’s time to produce and you will get full and be able to get “let-down” and pump. If you miss your alarm, your breasts will let you know. “It’s time! Now!” And if for any reason the baby is not hungry at a usual feeding time, then I’d pump. The most important things for milk production are plenty of fluids and a schedule. Doesn’t matter if it’s a baby or a pump, but something has to answer the call or you will lose production.

So that’s how we got through. Hubby doing all the legwork for the first two weeks while I did the body work, and then we took shifts after that, enabled by my pumping to create a supply for bottle feeding.
 

Rhea

Cyborg with a Tiara
Staff member
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
13,138
Location
Recluse
Basic Beliefs
Humanist
James Brown’s excellent advice reminded me of another.

In general, don’t tell the children what NOT to do, tell them what TO do.

They are not good (yet) at switching gears, let alone hearing “don’t” on one thing and being able to process and create a new action of what to do instead. So as an adult, consider that your job.

Don’t say: “don’t run out into the street!”
Do say: “You can only go into the street after you have stopped and looked both ways.” Or “you can only go into a street when holding my hand”
Corollary: We always told the kids that they were required to stop a full body length prior to the street. Because that way if they fell headlong (kids do this!) it was not under a car. They could understand and accept this, and so they do not stop with their toes on the curb, they stop well back.

Don’t say “stop hitting!”
Do say “Put your hands in your pockets!” Or “put your hands on your shoulders” and then you can talk about why hits are not okay and what they should do instead

Don’t say “don’t throw mud”
Do say “put the mud on the ground” and then you can talk about where mud is allowed to go.


Don’t say, “no biting!”
Do say, “bite this teething toy” or “bite your sleeve!” (We used to have a bag of rubber dinosaurs for our biting problem)
“What can you bite?” “A dinosaur, mom.” “Go get a dinosaur.”
 

Rhea

Cyborg with a Tiara
Staff member
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
13,138
Location
Recluse
Basic Beliefs
Humanist
Very small kids think “stop” is an invitation to play “tag”. This can create very dangerous situations when you need a child to stop but they giggle and run faster.

I learned to train the kids to honor “stop” by many repeated games of “red-light green-light” where failing to stop for the red light makes you lose the game - and they want to win. So repeated games of red-light green-light give the kids a habit of STOPPING whenever they hear “red-light.” This worked very well for us.


...

Another training game that we learned was to create a card game where you make two stacks of cards by laying out the Jokers. Then you deal out the cards face up one pile or the other at random. Any time the dealt card is RED the child slaps the card. And any time it is BLACK, they have to slap the other pile. This trains them to become good at deciding quickly that they see something and have to NOT act on it, but pause and think and act elsewhere. You can make this more complex as they get older. It gives them the thinking power to say, “I will do something different when I see a trigger.”
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
35,638
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
Instead of saying, "Be Careful", tell your kids, "Pay Attention."

Instead of saying “be careful” say “pay attention.” I picked up this great tip from Richard Louv’s Last Child in the Woods. Constantly saying “be careful” paints the world as an inherently perilous, overly dangerous place, and ingrains a cautious mindset into kids. In contrast, “pay attention” (or “watch what you’re doing”) encourages children to be more aware of their body and their surroundings — a mindset we want our kids to cultivate whether they’re doing risky things or not.

The world doesn’t need more careful children — it needs more wise, perceptive,
braveones.
I’ll take semantical BS for $800 Alex.

This just feels like someone attempting to be clever by saying the same thing in a different way, but with nearly the exact say context.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
35,638
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
Meanwhile....

My daughter absolutely fears Alexa, Google Home, and Siri. Literally seemed to have a panic attack at my parents. And today, she made a wish at a fountain, and then she told my wife that she wished all of the Alexas and Googles would go away. :eek: Not a Paw Patrol toy... but she wants smart speakers to disappear.

We had a Google Home at home... and I actually linked getting it with her behavior at school degrading! I put it away, but the episode at my parents was surreal. I can imagine a child finding it creepy, but the amount of fear and how present it is in her mind bothers me greatly. We are going to make with the counseling for this... and her mild stimulus input issues... to try and see what in the world is going on.

If this were a person, I'd suspect abuse. But we are talking a computer speaker voice.
 

Toni

Contributor
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
14,694
Location
NOT laying back and thinking of England
Basic Beliefs
Peace on Earth, goodwill towards all
Meanwhile....

My daughter absolutely fears Alexa, Google Home, and Siri. Literally seemed to have a panic attack at my parents. And today, she made a wish at a fountain, and then she told my wife that she wished all of the Alexas and Googles would go away. :eek: Not a Paw Patrol toy... but she wants smart speakers to disappear.

We had a Google Home at home... and I actually linked getting it with her behavior at school degrading! I put it away, but the episode at my parents was surreal. I can imagine a child finding it creepy, but the amount of fear and how present it is in her mind bothers me greatly. We are going to make with the counseling for this... and her mild stimulus input issues... to try and see what in the world is going on.

If this were a person, I'd suspect abuse. But we are talking a computer speaker voice.

Kids can have extremely active imaginations. I could imagine being such a child in the age of Alexa and being absolutely creeped out and panicked by having some disembodied voice say things or respond to questions, etc. Your daughter sounds both highly intelligent and extremely sensitive. This is not necessarily an easy combination for her or for her parents. But if we wanted easy, we'd just have goldfish, I reckon.

I've read enough dystopian fiction to see how your daughter could well be onto something. See: Feed by M. T. Anderson as an example.

Also have just spent some time where internet connections were few and far between and not necessarily reliable. Really good to get away from the very pervasive demands for attention and information....
 

Rhea

Cyborg with a Tiara
Staff member
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
13,138
Location
Recluse
Basic Beliefs
Humanist
Instead of saying, "Be Careful", tell your kids, "Pay Attention."

Instead of saying “be careful” say “pay attention.” I picked up this great tip from Richard Louv’s Last Child in the Woods. Constantly saying “be careful” paints the world as an inherently perilous, overly dangerous place, and ingrains a cautious mindset into kids. In contrast, “pay attention” (or “watch what you’re doing”) encourages children to be more aware of their body and their surroundings — a mindset we want our kids to cultivate whether they’re doing risky things or not.

The world doesn’t need more careful children — it needs more wise, perceptive,
braveones.
I’ll take semantical BS for $800 Alex.

This just feels like someone attempting to be clever by saying the same thing in a different way, but with nearly the exact say context.


I disagree on the BS. I feel that kids are very driven by action words and action sentences.
In this case the first one is not action, the second one is action.

Although, in contradiction to what I think, I asked my (20yo) son what he felt was the difference - since he was raised by me and therefore a victim of all of this deliberate language BS that I’ve been foisting on him for 2 decades...

...and he said that “Be careful” would make him look around for an immediate threat, while “Pay attention” would make him think, “yah yah yah, another lecture.” He did concede that this would depend upon my tone of voice.
 

rousseau

Contributor
Joined
Jun 23, 2010
Messages
12,172
I’ll take semantical BS for $800 Alex.

This just feels like someone attempting to be clever by saying the same thing in a different way, but with nearly the exact say context.


I disagree on the BS. I feel that kids are very driven by action words and action sentences.
In this case the first one is not action, the second one is action.

Although, in contradiction to what I think, I asked my (20yo) son what he felt was the difference - since he was raised by me and therefore a victim of all of this deliberate language BS that I’ve been foisting on him for 2 decades...

...and he said that “Be careful” would make him look around for an immediate threat, while “Pay attention” would make him think, “yah yah yah, another lecture.” He did concede that this would depend upon my tone of voice.

Going off of my own experience as a young kid I think there's a tendency for people to over-estimate how conscious young kids are of literally anything, including subtleties of language. As long as parents are the second set of eyes to to help them avoid major dangers, that's about as much as you can ask for.

Probably you can make a huge impact with language, including the perspective you give your kids, although obsessing over the minutiae seems like it'd cause more frustration than anything.

I don't know, maybe I've been reading too much Pinker, but it seems like many parents these days induce more stress on themselves and child trying to be perfect, when really 95% of it is feeding your kids healthy food, enforcing a bed-time, and making sure they understand the things they need to.
 

rousseau

Contributor
Joined
Jun 23, 2010
Messages
12,172
Meanwhile....

My daughter absolutely fears Alexa, Google Home, and Siri. Literally seemed to have a panic attack at my parents. And today, she made a wish at a fountain, and then she told my wife that she wished all of the Alexas and Googles would go away. :eek: Not a Paw Patrol toy... but she wants smart speakers to disappear.

We had a Google Home at home... and I actually linked getting it with her behavior at school degrading! I put it away, but the episode at my parents was surreal. I can imagine a child finding it creepy, but the amount of fear and how present it is in her mind bothers me greatly. We are going to make with the counseling for this... and her mild stimulus input issues... to try and see what in the world is going on.

If this were a person, I'd suspect abuse. But we are talking a computer speaker voice.

Kids can have extremely active imaginations. I could imagine being such a child in the age of Alexa and being absolutely creeped out and panicked by having some disembodied voice say things or respond to questions, etc. Your daughter sounds both highly intelligent and extremely sensitive. This is not necessarily an easy combination for her or for her parents. But if we wanted easy, we'd just have goldfish, I reckon.

I've read enough dystopian fiction to see how your daughter could well be onto something. See: Feed by M. T. Anderson as an example.

Also have just spent some time where internet connections were few and far between and not necessarily reliable. Really good to get away from the very pervasive demands for attention and information....

I think this is a great analysis. I can remember being a 9-year-old at Disney World, terrified at all of the signs that warned about riding with heart conditions. At that age I understood enough to be terrified, but not enough to realize there was no danger. This sounds like a similar situation.

The Whole Brain Child would recommend adding perspective so she's no longer terrified, or I guess in lieu of that remove the device.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
35,638
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
Meanwhile....

My daughter absolutely fears Alexa, Google Home, and Siri. Literally seemed to have a panic attack at my parents. And today, she made a wish at a fountain, and then she told my wife that she wished all of the Alexas and Googles would go away. :eek: Not a Paw Patrol toy... but she wants smart speakers to disappear.

We had a Google Home at home... and I actually linked getting it with her behavior at school degrading! I put it away, but the episode at my parents was surreal. I can imagine a child finding it creepy, but the amount of fear and how present it is in her mind bothers me greatly. We are going to make with the counseling for this... and her mild stimulus input issues... to try and see what in the world is going on.

If this were a person, I'd suspect abuse. But we are talking a computer speaker voice.

Kids can have extremely active imaginations. I could imagine being such a child in the age of Alexa and being absolutely creeped out and panicked by having some disembodied voice say things or respond to questions, etc. Your daughter sounds both highly intelligent and extremely sensitive. This is not necessarily an easy combination for her or for her parents. But if we wanted easy, we'd just have goldfish, I reckon.

I've read enough dystopian fiction to see how your daughter could well be onto something. See: Feed by M. T. Anderson as an example.

Also have just spent some time where internet connections were few and far between and not necessarily reliable. Really good to get away from the very pervasive demands for attention and information....
She has a Chromebook and likes using it, though more to watch videos than to use the education apps, so it isn't tech that bothers her, just the voice stuff. What bothers me is that it is clearly in her mind even when not near computers (granted, everyone has a smart phone these days... well everyone but her). I didn't realize it was that bad, she has flare for the dramatic, but this is clearly authentic.

But she also loves going outside, we go to places without electronics and whatnot. Cuyahoga Valley isn't rich with them, but we have spots that aren't well known (though others... damn you Internet!).
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
35,638
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
I’ll take semantical BS for $800 Alex.

This just feels like someone attempting to be clever by saying the same thing in a different way, but with nearly the exact say context.


I disagree on the BS. I feel that kids are very driven by action words and action sentences.
In this case the first one is not action, the second one is action.

Although, in contradiction to what I think, I asked my (20yo) son what he felt was the difference - since he was raised by me and therefore a victim of all of this deliberate language BS that I’ve been foisting on him for 2 decades...

...and he said that “Be careful” would make him look around for an immediate threat, while “Pay attention” would make him think, “yah yah yah, another lecture.” He did concede that this would depend upon my tone of voice.
Personally, I try to remind her to "know her surroundings". Unfortunately, because language is fluid, we are left with synonymous sayings to raise awareness.. and often to ears with variable sieve openings.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
35,638
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
Taoistic, teaching without teaching. My forever attention seeking daughter got into trouble in class (1st grade) last week asking for help when she clearly didn't need it.

I'm a great teacher (can develop so many different angles) and an awful teacher (patience). I'm still learning when my child has a legitimate lock up. She is only 6 after all, and sometimes her brain just crashes. I'm too inexperienced to tell the difference between a crash and her just wanting attention (more).
 

Toni

Contributor
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
14,694
Location
NOT laying back and thinking of England
Basic Beliefs
Peace on Earth, goodwill towards all
Taoistic, teaching without teaching. My forever attention seeking daughter got into trouble in class (1st grade) last week asking for help when she clearly didn't need it.

I'm a great teacher (can develop so many different angles) and an awful teacher (patience). I'm still learning when my child has a legitimate lock up. She is only 6 after all, and sometimes her brain just crashes. I'm too inexperienced to tell the difference between a crash and her just wanting attention (more).

Even smart kids need and deserve some attention. Sometimes questions are resolved just by asking them. Smart kids can sometimes have a gap--maybe momentary, maybe fundamental--in understanding or skill set. Sometimes teachers rely on more capable students needing nothing from them to the detriment of those capable kids.

She should always be able to ask for help.
 

Keith&Co.

Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
22,444
Location
Far Western Mass
Gender
Here.
Basic Beliefs
I'm here...
I'm too inexperienced to tell the difference between a crash and her just wanting attention (more).
Your daughter is still asking you to come towards her and you're wondering if it's legit?
Dude, get up and help her for as long as she's willing to ask.
Once she figures out that she's smarter than you are, you'll be begging to help her.
 

gmbteach

Mrs Frizzle
Joined
Apr 16, 2013
Messages
11,470
Location
At home, when I am not at work.
Basic Beliefs
On my journey :D
Taoistic, teaching without teaching. My forever attention seeking daughter got into trouble in class (1st grade) last week asking for help when she clearly didn't need it.

I'm a great teacher (can develop so many different angles) and an awful teacher (patience). I'm still learning when my child has a legitimate lock up. She is only 6 after all, and sometimes her brain just crashes. I'm too inexperienced to tell the difference between a crash and her just wanting attention (more).

Even smart kids need and deserve some attention. Sometimes questions are resolved just by asking them. Smart kids can sometimes have a gap--maybe momentary, maybe fundamental--in understanding or skill set. Sometimes teachers rely on more capable students needing nothing from them to the detriment of those capable kids.

She should always be able to ask for help.
I agree.
 

Toni

Contributor
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
14,694
Location
NOT laying back and thinking of England
Basic Beliefs
Peace on Earth, goodwill towards all
Taoistic, teaching without teaching. My forever attention seeking daughter got into trouble in class (1st grade) last week asking for help when she clearly didn't need it.

I'm a great teacher (can develop so many different angles) and an awful teacher (patience). I'm still learning when my child has a legitimate lock up. She is only 6 after all, and sometimes her brain just crashes. I'm too inexperienced to tell the difference between a crash and her just wanting attention (more).

Well I’m a door: when you can’t tell if she’s just crashing or if she needs attention: ask her. Don’t be surprised if she doesn’t know the first time or fifty or if she’s sometimes wrong. Sometimes the solution is the same whichever: maybe she needs a hug which soothes so many needs. But it’s a good skill for her to develop. Is she hungry or tired or thirsty—or is she angry or frustrated?

It’s a skill a lot of adults need to work on, too.
 

Fentoine Lum

Banned
Banned
Joined
Sep 25, 2019
Messages
600
Location
Indiana
Basic Beliefs
I'm a human being
Taoistic, teaching without teaching. My forever attention seeking daughter got into trouble in class (1st grade) last week asking for help when she clearly didn't need it.

I'm a great teacher (can develop so many different angles) and an awful teacher (patience). I'm still learning when my child has a legitimate lock up. She is only 6 after all, and sometimes her brain just crashes. I'm too inexperienced to tell the difference between a crash and her just wanting attention (more).

Yeah well, perhaps your child is teaching you a thing or two, are you open to the lessons? Perhaps you should abandon seeking the "experience" with which to judge her and just be with her in the moment, every moment. If she is being chastised for asking for help in school, and she catches the same at home, maybe "we" can get her to shut down and realize she's really all alone in this society at the end of the day.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
35,638
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
Taoistic, teaching without teaching. My forever attention seeking daughter got into trouble in class (1st grade) last week asking for help when she clearly didn't need it.

I'm a great teacher (can develop so many different angles) and an awful teacher (patience). I'm still learning when my child has a legitimate lock up. She is only 6 after all, and sometimes her brain just crashes. I'm too inexperienced to tell the difference between a crash and her just wanting attention (more).

Yeah well, perhaps your child is teaching you a thing or two, are you open to the lessons? Perhaps you should abandon seeking the "experience" with which to judge her and just be with her in the moment, every moment. If she is being chastised for asking for help in school, and she catches the same at home, maybe "we" can get her to shut down and realize she's really all alone in this society at the end of the day.
So qute.
 

Fentoine Lum

Banned
Banned
Joined
Sep 25, 2019
Messages
600
Location
Indiana
Basic Beliefs
I'm a human being
Taoistic, teaching without teaching. My forever attention seeking daughter got into trouble in class (1st grade) last week asking for help when she clearly didn't need it.

I'm a great teacher (can develop so many different angles) and an awful teacher (patience). I'm still learning when my child has a legitimate lock up. She is only 6 after all, and sometimes her brain just crashes. I'm too inexperienced to tell the difference between a crash and her just wanting attention (more).

Yeah well, perhaps your child is teaching you a thing or two, are you open to the lessons? Perhaps you should abandon seeking the "experience" with which to judge her and just be with her in the moment, every moment. If she is being chastised for asking for help in school, and she catches the same at home, maybe "we" can get her to shut down and realize she's really all alone in this society at the end of the day.
So qute.

Too real?
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
35,638
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
Taoistic, teaching without teaching. My forever attention seeking daughter got into trouble in class (1st grade) last week asking for help when she clearly didn't need it.

I'm a great teacher (can develop so many different angles) and an awful teacher (patience). I'm still learning when my child has a legitimate lock up. She is only 6 after all, and sometimes her brain just crashes. I'm too inexperienced to tell the difference between a crash and her just wanting attention (more).

Well I’m a door: when you can’t tell if she’s just crashing or if she needs attention: ask her.
My daughter isn't the best at answering questions when asked so I look for tells.
Don’t be surprised if she doesn’t know the first time or fifty or if she’s sometimes wrong.
The trouble is when I know she knows the method, but she just crashes out on it. Regardless, with experience, I'm getting a better feel.

Regardless, she was promoted to 2nd grade math (she is ready for 3rd I think, but steps). And I really enjoy helping her to learn the stuff... while I can. I was getting nervous I wasted her time over the summer with the math because her 1st grade homework was embarrassingly easy for her. But they took assessment tests and she got to bounce up. This school is freaking awesome and fuck Columbus and their school district "grading" system.
 

Fentoine Lum

Banned
Banned
Joined
Sep 25, 2019
Messages
600
Location
Indiana
Basic Beliefs
I'm a human being
My daughter isn't the best at answering questions when asked so I look for tells.
Don’t be surprised if she doesn’t know the first time or fifty or if she’s sometimes wrong.
The trouble is when I know she knows the method, but she just crashes out on it. Regardless, with experience, I'm getting a better feel.

Regardless, she was promoted to 2nd grade math (she is ready for 3rd I think, but steps). And I really enjoy helping her to learn the stuff... while I can. I was getting nervous I wasted her time over the summer with the math because her 1st grade homework was embarrassingly easy for her. But they took assessment tests and she got to bounce up. This school is freaking awesome and fuck Columbus and their school district "grading" system.

Well I think we can all agree with "fuck Columbus" now, can't we?
 

Fentoine Lum

Banned
Banned
Joined
Sep 25, 2019
Messages
600
Location
Indiana
Basic Beliefs
I'm a human being
I’ll take semantical BS for $800 Alex.

This just feels like someone attempting to be clever by saying the same thing in a different way, but with nearly the exact say context.


I disagree on the BS. I feel that kids are very driven by action words and action sentences.
In this case the first one is not action, the second one is action.

Although, in contradiction to what I think, I asked my (20yo) son what he felt was the difference - since he was raised by me and therefore a victim of all of this deliberate language BS that I’ve been foisting on him for 2 decades...

...and he said that “Be careful” would make him look around for an immediate threat, while “Pay attention” would make him think, “yah yah yah, another lecture.” He did concede that this would depend upon my tone of voice.
Personally, I try to remind her to "know her surroundings". Unfortunately, because language is fluid, we are left with synonymous sayings to raise awareness.. and often to ears with variable sieve openings.

Perhaps she's very aware of her surroundings and you're all over her with the control shtick.
 

Fentoine Lum

Banned
Banned
Joined
Sep 25, 2019
Messages
600
Location
Indiana
Basic Beliefs
I'm a human being
Meanwhile....

My daughter absolutely fears Alexa, Google Home, and Siri. Literally seemed to have a panic attack at my parents. And today, she made a wish at a fountain, and then she told my wife that she wished all of the Alexas and Googles would go away. :eek: Not a Paw Patrol toy... but she wants smart speakers to disappear.

We had a Google Home at home... and I actually linked getting it with her behavior at school degrading! I put it away, but the episode at my parents was surreal. I can imagine a child finding it creepy, but the amount of fear and how present it is in her mind bothers me greatly. We are going to make with the counseling for this... and her mild stimulus input issues... to try and see what in the world is going on.

If this were a person, I'd suspect abuse. But we are talking a computer speaker voice.

So your daughter is already showing some awareness that she's under constant corporate state surveillance and you wish to shame her out of that awareness?
 

Toni

Contributor
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
14,694
Location
NOT laying back and thinking of England
Basic Beliefs
Peace on Earth, goodwill towards all
Meanwhile....

My daughter absolutely fears Alexa, Google Home, and Siri. Literally seemed to have a panic attack at my parents. And today, she made a wish at a fountain, and then she told my wife that she wished all of the Alexas and Googles would go away. :eek: Not a Paw Patrol toy... but she wants smart speakers to disappear.

We had a Google Home at home... and I actually linked getting it with her behavior at school degrading! I put it away, but the episode at my parents was surreal. I can imagine a child finding it creepy, but the amount of fear and how present it is in her mind bothers me greatly. We are going to make with the counseling for this... and her mild stimulus input issues... to try and see what in the world is going on.

If this were a person, I'd suspect abuse. But we are talking a computer speaker voice.

So your daughter is already showing some awareness that she's under constant corporate state surveillance and you wish to shame her out of that awareness?

Where did you get that from Jimmy?
 

Fentoine Lum

Banned
Banned
Joined
Sep 25, 2019
Messages
600
Location
Indiana
Basic Beliefs
I'm a human being
Meanwhile....

My daughter absolutely fears Alexa, Google Home, and Siri. Literally seemed to have a panic attack at my parents. And today, she made a wish at a fountain, and then she told my wife that she wished all of the Alexas and Googles would go away. :eek: Not a Paw Patrol toy... but she wants smart speakers to disappear.

We had a Google Home at home... and I actually linked getting it with her behavior at school degrading! I put it away, but the episode at my parents was surreal. I can imagine a child finding it creepy, but the amount of fear and how present it is in her mind bothers me greatly. We are going to make with the counseling for this... and her mild stimulus input issues... to try and see what in the world is going on.

If this were a person, I'd suspect abuse. But we are talking a computer speaker voice.

So your daughter is already showing some awareness that she's under constant corporate state surveillance and you wish to shame her out of that awareness?

Where did you get that from Jimmy?

"My daughter absolutely fears Alexa, Google Home, and Siri."

Is he not alarmed seeking a solution moving her toward acceptance of mass surveillance tech in her home and life?
 

Toni

Contributor
Joined
Aug 11, 2011
Messages
14,694
Location
NOT laying back and thinking of England
Basic Beliefs
Peace on Earth, goodwill towards all
Where did you get that from Jimmy?

"My daughter absolutely fears Alexa, Google Home, and Siri."

Is he not alarmed seeking a solution moving her toward acceptance of mass surveillance tech in her home and life?

No, it sounds as though he's concerned at the fairly extreme reaction his very bright daughter is having to modern technology and some concerning behaviors that appear to be a result of the tech, which presence he's only able to control within his own home. It is possible that she has the kind of awareness of tech's intrusion into her life or perhaps there's something else going on. It's not possible to know from what he wrote. I see no hint or suggestion that he uses shame in his approach to parenting in any way, shape or form.

Perhaps you are projecting?
 

Keith&Co.

Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
22,444
Location
Far Western Mass
Gender
Here.
Basic Beliefs
I'm here...
Just found two popover trays in the sink. A few leftover popovers are in a ziploc.
I would LIKE to think my son or sons saw the trays, decided to hone their popover skills, and made a batch.
I would more readily believe that the trays fell out of the cabinet, and they decided making surplus food, and leaving me to wash and replace the trays would be less annoying to me than their admitting they made a pact with the kitchen demons to never, never, ever put stuff away where it belongs.



Ever.

I mean, THEIR coffee measure moves eight inches from the return-to-battety position, there is an inquiry. I spend twenty goddamned minutes looking for the soup ladle, including taking a crazy chance on the drawer it belongs in, and they act like _I_ am weird for not looking up the chimney flue...

Must be a demon pact.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Joined
Feb 1, 2001
Messages
35,638
Basic Beliefs
Calvinistic Atheist
Seriously freaking out over my daughter's mental health. She had an incident today in school where she decided to punch a classmate in the face because she ran into line instead of walked. What bothered me was that she wasn't angry. This, in connection with a couple incidents within the past week we caught her being mean to our cat, that make three incidents of non-anger related violence. And she has noted on multiple occasions recently, a "voice" is commanding her to do these things. Now children will be children, and will say certain things and have decent sized imaginations, and I might be making too much of this, but I am fearing that she actually is suffering from a serious early onset mental illness, which connects too many dots. She is already in therapy, but we'll need to kick it up a few levels because either I need a doctor to tell me to calm the heck down, or to diagnose her with what I'm fearing and get her treatment. Luckily, have a professional psychiatrist in the extended family, though he works with adults, but it'll at least be a start before getting her to a local pro.

I really hope I'm making too much of this, but I really don't think anyone knows her better than I. For an empathetic child, she seems to lack remorse at times and revels in attention when she has done something wrong. (Oddly enough, she is the only female I can easily read. ;)) Between everything else from marriage to my dad to my daughter's behavior... there is little beneath my feet that seems steady.
 
Top Bottom