#### rousseau

##### Contributor
Congrats!

I always thought sleep regression coincided with growth spurts, so it's not so much a regression per se, but rather the baby has higher metabolic needs (eats more, so consequently wakes more). In the early days we fed our son pretty much any time he cried. Sometimes it'd be something else, but it was rare.

#### Toni

##### Contributor
Sure but physical growth isn’t the only kind of growth spurt that happens. Some kids are better at going back to sleep on their own than others. For my kids, having a very relaxed routine helped get them down. In toddler years, as their need to sleep was shifting, and they were more aware that life went on outside of their bedrooms—and were mobile enough to do something about it, sometimes they had trouble staying in bed—or rather, we had trouble with them popping up wanting another story, drink, cuddle, bathroom and frankly whatever excuse they could come up with. For my kids, it was actually more helpful for doors to their bedroom to be left open so that they could hear the quiet sounds of the adult evening going in—music or television, pages turning in books, quiet conversation or the sounds of dishes being washed and the living room straightened. Nothing too exciting so they really weren’t missing out too much. At different ages, sometimes one of us needed to be very near the bedroom, so they could see or hear us. I would make a big (but very quiet) show of putting away laundry, for example, taking multiple trips past their open doors. And for a couple, I sometimes sat in the floor outside their bedroom, quietly reading, so they could see me and hear me. There was a week ir two with each of them where there was a lot of bounce back to bed routines. We just tried to make it as quiet and as boring —and as matter of fact as possible, it kept the excitement from being fed and didn’t provide any motivation to stay awake to see what the Grownups were up to: just boring stuff…

Which reminds me of when our oldest successfully lobbied for a 10 pm bedtime. He was so excited! And sorely disappointed that there was no special exciting adult magic going on.

#### rousseau

##### Contributor
I was mainly just noting what we found with our infant. IIRC, in the first year they can't really be overfed, a parents main job is pumping them full of milk and transitioning them to solids (flavour window and baby led weaning!). Once they're firmly past one year old the equation changes as their growth slows significantly. Maybe around 9 - 11 months is the time to start nudging them away from night feeds, but at the very least no earlier than 4 months. Opinions will vary.

In my experience the term 'sleep regression' can be pernicious as many parents misunderstand it as 'why won't my baby sleep' when it's really 'my baby is actually just hungry'.

#### rousseau

##### Contributor
Sure but physical growth isn’t the only kind of growth spurt that happens. Some kids are better at going back to sleep on their own than others. For my kids, having a very relaxed routine helped get them down. In toddler years, as their need to sleep was shifting, and they were more aware that life went on outside of their bedrooms—and were mobile enough to do something about it, sometimes they had trouble staying in bed—or rather, we had trouble with them popping up wanting another story, drink, cuddle, bathroom and frankly whatever excuse they could come up with. For my kids, it was actually more helpful for doors to their bedroom to be left open so that they could hear the quiet sounds of the adult evening going in—music or television, pages turning in books, quiet conversation or the sounds of dishes being washed and the living room straightened. Nothing too exciting so they really weren’t missing out too much. At different ages, sometimes one of us needed to be very near the bedroom, so they could see or hear us. I would make a big (but very quiet) show of putting away laundry, for example, taking multiple trips past their open doors. And for a couple, I sometimes sat in the floor outside their bedroom, quietly reading, so they could see me and hear me. There was a week ir two with each of them where there was a lot of bounce back to bed routines. We just tried to make it as quiet and as boring —and as matter of fact as possible, it kept the excitement from being fed and didn’t provide any motivation to stay awake to see what the Grownups were up to: just boring stuff…

Which reminds me of when our oldest successfully lobbied for a 10 pm bedtime. He was so excited! And sorely disappointed that there was no special exciting adult magic going on.

This turned out to be a timely post as our son just made a huge shift in the past week. For months we had a consistent and predictable routine, but now he seems to be doing similar as you mention. He knows he can push to stay up later, and from what I can tell just wants to be with us after he's gone down.

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
My daughter has this hat.

She says the kids at school “... call it a cheetah hat. But I think it is an ocelot. Cheetahs are more yellow.”

And I’m wondering, ocelot?! She get that from Wild Kratts, her nation geographic animal atlas. I had to look the animal up!

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
Oh, the answer was the Cleveland Zoo has one.

#### Keith&Co.

##### Contributor
My daughter has this hat.

View attachment 37917

She says the kids at school “... call it a cheetah hat. But I think it is an ocelot. Cheetahs are more yellow.”
I think you have to go more by the spots. Solid or donuts with a brown center, that sort of thing. Individual or linked into chains.

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
My daughter has this hat.

View attachment 37917

She says the kids at school “... call it a cheetah hat. But I think it is an ocelot. Cheetahs are more yellow.”
I think you have to go more by the spots. Solid or donuts with a brown center, that sort of thing. Individual or linked into chains.
She actually mentioned that whrn i asked her. She Said they were larger for ocelot.

#### Keith&Co.

##### Contributor
My daughter has this hat.

View attachment 37917

She says the kids at school “... call it a cheetah hat. But I think it is an ocelot. Cheetahs are more yellow.”
I think you have to go more by the spots. Solid or donuts with a brown center, that sort of thing. Individual or linked into chains.
She actually mentioned that whrn i asked her. She Said they were larger for ocelot.
Smart kid. Buy her a panda.

#### Toni

##### Contributor
My daughter has this hat.

View attachment 37917

She says the kids at school “... call it a cheetah hat. But I think it is an ocelot. Cheetahs are more yellow.”
I think you have to go more by the spots. Solid or donuts with a brown center, that sort of thing. Individual or linked into chains.
She actually mentioned that whrn i asked her. She Said they were larger for ocelot.
Smart kid. Buy her a panda.
Which kind?

#### Keith&Co.

##### Contributor
Well, _I_ like Red, but it's her taste that needs to be considered.

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
Red pandas in our house are called "darn raccoons".

And red pandas definitely would be nice in the home as they are effectively a living / breathing Swifter.

#### Keith&Co.

##### Contributor
Red pandas in our house are called "darn raccoons".

And red pandas definitely would be nice in the home as they are effectively a living / breathing Swifter.
So, get her a damn raccoon. And when you tell her to clean her room, she throws rice on the floor and goes to watch TV. "Chow's working on it!"

#### Toni

##### Contributor
Red pandas in our house are called "darn raccoons".

And red pandas definitely would be nice in the home as they are effectively a living / breathing Swifter.
So, get her a damn raccoon. And when you tell her to clean her room, she throws rice on the floor and goes to watch TV. "Chow's working on it!"
Uh, baby raccoons are sweet and fun. Adult raccoons are not and do not make good pets, even if they are raised in a loving, well intentioned household. Their teeth and claws are sharp and they are very very clever.

I don’t know about red pandas.

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
At our home red pandas = "darn raccoons". Just something that happened... stuff like that happens often.

Every Xmas, I put out a Panda trap so we can have Panda Filet with brunch, but it never works.

#### rousseau

##### Contributor
Thinking about the fact lately that I've put our eldest down at night five nights per week from about the time he was 14 months (he's now 22). Originally the idea was to give mom a break, but now that I've done it for so long I'm recognizing how special this is.

I was putting him down last night and suddenly it hit me that last July I had a baby, and now I have a full blown, very big toddler (who's still very much a baby). It was great getting to see that progression, and now watch the progression continue.

Then I wake up at 3 AM to feed my 1 week old baby, and rock him back to sleep. It's very much like going back in time and getting to start from the beginning again.

As a side-note: when we just had our eldest, the advice leave the mess didn't really apply. With the two of them it very much applies.

#### Toni

##### Contributor
Sounds like things are going really well. Very happy for you all.

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
Daughter decided to jam the Nintendo Wii with a game disc. This might or might not have broken the drive's ability to work. Opened it up, a couple plastic pieces fell out. Tried to figure out the drive... remembered I suck at mechanical things. Looked online and ordered a Wii disc drive replacement. Plugged that in, and the games played again. The Wii doesn't look quite as nice as it did, but again... not my strength.

My daughter up to this point, had been really good with electronics, for the most part, including disc handling! Got her a Chromebook when was 5 to do education apps on. So I was a bit surprised at this breakdown. And of course, she needs to tell me this is happening while I'm holding a chainsaw...

No really, I was cutting out the overgrown bushes (almost trees at this point) in the front of the house and she comes out telling me there is a problem... the Wii isn't reading the discs. I remind her I'm kind of busy. So she then systematically checks every Wii game to see if it it will read them (it could read two), but couldn't play any of them. I get in there, she admits her error. So proud, so disappointed at the same time.

First world parent problems.

#### Jimmy Higgins

So, found out The Musical Box (Genesis tribute band) was coming to town and doing The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway show, ie, just like it was performed back in the 70s. Cordi likes this album. So I asked if she were interested. She said yes. I checked tickets, held off. Asked again, she said yes again. Checked tickets again and third row seats popped up. So at $50 a pop (nothing for tickets these days!), got a pair. We saw the show last night, she was definitely youngest in attendance. I saw a few teenagers, so I wasn't the second youngest by a bit. She liked the first part more than the second, which was as expected. But she held it together, which was great, only getting a bit squirmy near the end. They finished with The Musical Box and Watchers of the Sky, which she isn't as big a fan, but made it to the end. The costumes kept her interest late into the show. This was her first indoor rock concert. She wants to see Alan Parsons, so if he gets back in the area, try to do that. He has a new album coming out, so that could work. Parsons is a bit more accessible sound wise. #### crazyfingers ##### Supermagnon Staff member The boys and I will be going to see the Dead and Company July 2 at Gillette Stadium and July 6 at Saratoga Springs, NY. It will be the 3rd summer we've seen part of the summer tour as it went by. 2019, 2021 and 2022. Always a great time. The scene is so much like when I went with my friends in the 1980's and 1990s. Maybe a bit more mellow. There are now 75 year olds mixed in with teenagers. The boys love it. Since they were able to say just a few words they have been subjected to Grateful Dead in the car. It sunk in. #### gmbteach ##### Mrs Frizzle We have tickets to Post Modern Jukebox in September, and Sarah Millican in February. #### rousseau ##### Contributor I have a childless college-friend in a nearby city who, with the pandemic winding down, keeps going out to concerts. I'm jealous, I could use a night out and a few beers. On our end we've had both boys in bed by 8:30 the last few nights, which has been the most downtime we've had in the evening for weeks. We are going out a lot lately, though, we just have to bring them with us, and it's usually either family-friendly restaurants or kids activities. I actually took this past Thursday and Friday off for a staycation, we went to a nearby zoo one day, and a children's amusement park the other. #### Jimmy Higgins ##### Contributor Did the 2 mile race with my daughter. She went from start to finish without walking. Looking at the results, she is definitely not high-end competitive wise with kids her age, but she has never really trained. Girls on the Run ain't about training how to run competitively. Really no reason to push her for a few years still, other than teaching her how to pace, which she did pretty well in this race. And honestly, that is an experience thing as well. More small races, more experience and she learns how she can do. Local 1-miler coming up. Maybe do that course this weekend, to get a feel for that distance. #### crazyfingers ##### Supermagnon Staff member My two boys have not been getting along well ever since they went to their concert on June 9. They just had a big verbal blowout. One has ADHD and is excitable. The other is on the autism spectrum and shuts down. That one NEVER says that he's sorry for anything. Both have extremely low self esteem. At least they are both past the stage of kicking holes in their walls or throwing breakables around the house. All three have traumatized me since they moved in in 2004. #### Jimmy Higgins ##### Contributor Daughter has been talking about going to Mid-Ohio Indycar race for months. Been trying to figure out how to do it, and the cost for General Admission for the whole thing (she is free) isn't much more than the race. And with grandstand tickets nearly sold out, I don't need to wonder if that is worth it (she wouldn't be free for that). She actually watched a practice session on tv along with me. Will need to get her an Alex Palou shirt, she likes Alex Palou. Don't think she could ID him, but he won the first race she was adjacent to, and it stuck. Got in-field parking passes to reduce the amount of walking, so I don't need to lug everything around with me. And Paddock as well. She isn't old enough to go into the Pit. But the Paddock has a sweet view of the Pit. Saturday will be grandstanding, wandering around like last time. Need to figure how to keep her engaged on Sunday, because seating is a premium for General Admission, and it isn't wise to wander around. I'm not certain what "the code" is for that. We'll need to bring seats. Also have a small beach tent, could be good if it is very bright or very wet. My two boys have not been getting along well ever since they went to their concert on June 9. They just had a big verbal blowout. One has ADHD and is excitable. The other is on the autism spectrum and shuts down. That one NEVER says that he's sorry for anything. Both have extremely low self esteem. At least they are both past the stage of kicking holes in their walls or throwing breakables around the house. All three have traumatized me since they moved in in 2004. The three children you helped raise sound very very far from baseline and that can't have been easy... or really even hard, ie well beyond hard. I can't imagine having two kids like my daughter. Forget three! My daughter who is on the edge of the Autistic Spectrum has a similar 'sorry' issue. She'll say sorry over the dumbest most inconsequential things. Like if I tell her to put the remote down (she has a fiddling with things issue... got it from me), "sorry, sorry, sorry". Breaks the Wii... nothing! Nice to hear maybe that is just a thing with her mind. #### ZiprHead ##### Loony Running The Asylum Staff member Daughter has been talking about going to Mid-Ohio Indycar race for months. Been trying to figure out how to do it, and the cost for General Admission for the whole thing (she is free) isn't much more than the race. And with grandstand tickets nearly sold out, I don't need to wonder if that is worth it (she wouldn't be free for that). She actually watched a practice session on tv along with me. Will need to get her an Alex Palou shirt, she likes Alex Palou. Don't think she could ID him, but he won the first race she was adjacent to, and it stuck. Jealous. You get a much better idea of how fast those cars are really going when you see them live. #### Toni ##### Contributor My two boys have not been getting along well ever since they went to their concert on June 9. They just had a big verbal blowout. One has ADHD and is excitable. The other is on the autism spectrum and shuts down. That one NEVER says that he's sorry for anything. Both have extremely low self esteem. At least they are both past the stage of kicking holes in their walls or throwing breakables around the house. All three have traumatized me since they moved in in 2004. You know, raising kids is a lot of work--definitely not for the faint of heart. When you are raising kids who came to you, not as newborns but with a history of trauma as well as some of their own medical/mental health/learning issues, that is really the work of heroes. It's never smooth sailing with kids. I look back on my young adulthood and I think my parents must have been terrified/horrified. After all, I followed some strange guy who looked halfway like a hippie several states away, where I knew no one aside from said half a hippie guy, had no job and no place to live. About a year later, we were married and presented the first grandchild. I think the term that kid, now an adult might use would be 'shitting bricks' to express my parents' state of mind over my very sudden plans to decamp with someone who was practically a stranger (to them). OTOH, I was sure I was just fine and was going to be even better. To their tremendous credit, they were silent when I know they must have been near to bursting with warnings and advice and cautions--and criticism and blame--some of which was justified and some not. The fact that I turned out to be right: I was much more than OK and have had a pretty good life seems so random to me. There was almost nothing that predicted success at that point. But here we are, still crazy over 40 years and 4 kids, multiple cross state moves, two houses and several renovations later and still together, happy most of the time. I wish I had taken more than a little bit of that particular book —keep silent and smile if you are able—with my own kids. It is shocking, I am sure to learn that I sometimes have trouble with that keep silent and keep a smile plastered on your face bit. You seem to have a really good knack for raising kids. It’s not an easy job, in the best circumstances. Your family has had more challenges than most. You should be very proud of your family. #### rousseau ##### Contributor We've been doing some pondering lately about our experience after our first was born, versus the experience with our second. The first year absolutely flew by with our first. I spent most it in a state of anxiety and frustration while I was figuring everything out. But with our second it feels like we're watching him change in slow motion. We've been so busy the past few months that the days feel long and tiring. But there is absolutely no stress or anxiety this time, just calm observation. It took me until our toddler was about 18 months to recognize: I can't miss any more stages. But with our baby I'm savoring every day and every change, no matter how small. I'm trying not to ask too many more questions in this thread because it's usually Toni on the hook for an answer, and really.. we're doing fine. But I am curious how you (Toni), and others who had multiples, experienced the development of subsequent children after your first. Not for any reason, just curiosity. I also wonder if your (Toni) age made a difference, because IIRC you would have been around your mid-twenties when you had your second? Ten years earlier than me. #### Toni ##### Contributor For us, our first was a very easy child. He ate what was offered, slept when we put him down and aimed if we handed him over to someone. He was verbal early on and funny before he formed words we could understand. He was extremely social and outgoing. In fact he was such a neighborhood delight that he inspired multiple friends to have their own babies and one used his name as their kid’s middle name. We thought it was because we were such good parents ts. And then we had another child. Who would only breast feed until he was old enough to eat from my plate—eschewing all baby food to the point that I simply mashed up what we were having with my fork and fed him that. Oh, and he liked Cheerios, but only the ones which fell on the floor. In fact it was quite a challenge when he was a toddler to keep him from eating all sorts of stuff he found on the ground or the sidewalk or at the bus stop. He did not take a nap reliably until just before #3 was born and did not sleep through the night until he was over 18 months old. I don’t remember precisely how old he was because I was exhausted. He did not verbalize early like his brother. I was worried he wasn’t quite as smart but he almost immediately went to full sentences once he began talking. He was clingy and did not socialize easily. In short, we learned a LOT of humility. So with the subsequent kids, we learned to draw zero comparisons and to enjoy them each for who they were. I think that with our first, we were all about doing everything the ‘right’ way, which, lacking internet ( not yet invented) or parents nearby, we made up on our own. Oh, I read a lot and talked to other parents at but I worked full time and commuted until he was 2, so…fortunately we had an easy baby. Our mistake was thinking he was easy because we were good. Also, in retrospect, I recognize some of the struggles we did have but were so enamored with #1 that we just forgot there had ever been anything but bliss when he was a baby. We learned to relax about a lot of things as the children came, partly because we had no choice—we were not magically awarded more hours in the day or more energy when we had a new baby. But also because we learned that a missed nap or gasp! a cookie or bite of ice cream was not the end of the world, that temper tantrums passed faster if you didn’t let them rattle you and could mostly be avoided if you paid attention and did not expect a hungry or over tired toddler to not mention down in the mall and instead scheduled around meal and nap times, for example. We learned to let them be themselves and not to take any one child as a good standard. I was quick at this because my parents very much thought my older sibling was THE gold standard against which we were all measured and found wanting. Nor did I think that they had to be best friends ( although sometimes they are). We also learned to really really appreciate them for who they are. And it was a little bittersweet going through everything with the youngest because we knew they’d be the last one, so I tried to hold on to moments a bit more, I think. But I’ll stop now. You’re right: I do tend to run on a lot. I really enjoy children and I really loved raising mine, even on the no good terrible very bad days. #### rousseau ##### Contributor We learned to relax about a lot of things as the children came, partly because we had no choice—we were not magically awarded more hours in the day or more energy when we had a new baby. But also because we learned that a missed nap or gasp! a cookie or bite of ice cream was not the end of the world, that temper tantrums passed faster if you didn’t let them rattle you and could mostly be avoided if you paid attention and did not expect a hungry or over tired toddler to not mention down in the mall and instead scheduled around meal and nap times, for example. This has been our experience as well. You're focused on not damaging the first, but with our second we're not letting much stress us out. One thing that's standing out after the transition to two is how thoroughly little free time we have. Most days we're going from morning to night with negligible downtime. This wasn't unexpected, and I imagine it'll get better, but it has been eye-opening. We have friends in the city who had two, tried for a third, and had twins. They don't have much help and you can tell that they're pretty much run ragged. I have another friend with four as well, this time planned, but she's been MIA since the fourth came. Much respect for parents who have three or more. My wife and I love being parents, but two is more than enough for us. #### Tharmas ##### Veteran Member For us, our first was a very easy child. He ate what was offered, slept when we put him down and aimed if we handed him over to someone. He was verbal early on and funny before he formed words we could understand. He was extremely social and outgoing. In fact he was such a neighborhood delight that he inspired multiple friends to have their own babies and one used his name as their kid’s middle name. We thought it was because we were such good parents ts. And then we had another child. Who would only breast feed until he was old enough to eat from my plate—eschewing all baby food to the point that I simply mashed up what we were having with my fork and fed him that. Oh, and he liked Cheerios, but only the ones which fell on the floor. In fact it was quite a challenge when he was a toddler to keep him from eating all sorts of stuff he found on the ground or the sidewalk or at the bus stop. He did not take a nap reliably until just before #3 was born and did not sleep through the night until he was over 18 months old. I don’t remember precisely how old he was because I was exhausted. He did not verbalize early like his brother. I was worried he wasn’t quite as smart but he almost immediately went to full sentences once he began talking. He was clingy and did not socialize easily. In short, we learned a LOT of humility. So with the subsequent kids, we learned to draw zero comparisons and to enjoy them each for who they were. I think that with our first, we were all about doing everything the ‘right’ way, which, lacking internet ( not yet invented) or parents nearby, we made up on our own. Oh, I read a lot and talked to other parents at but I worked full time and commuted until he was 2, so…fortunately we had an easy baby. Our mistake was thinking he was easy because we were good. Also, in retrospect, I recognize some of the struggles we did have but were so enamored with #1 that we just forgot there had ever been anything but bliss when he was a baby. We learned to relax about a lot of things as the children came, partly because we had no choice—we were not magically awarded more hours in the day or more energy when we had a new baby. But also because we learned that a missed nap or gasp! a cookie or bite of ice cream was not the end of the world, that temper tantrums passed faster if you didn’t let them rattle you and could mostly be avoided if you paid attention and did not expect a hungry or over tired toddler to not mention down in the mall and instead scheduled around meal and nap times, for example. We learned to let them be themselves and not to take any one child as a good standard. I was quick at this because my parents very much thought my older sibling was THE gold standard against which we were all measured and found wanting. Nor did I think that they had to be best friends ( although sometimes they are). We also learned to really really appreciate them for who they are. And it was a little bittersweet going through everything with the youngest because we knew they’d be the last one, so I tried to hold on to moments a bit more, I think. But I’ll stop now. You’re right: I do tend to run on a lot. I really enjoy children and I really loved raising mine, even on the no good terrible very bad days. That's my experience. Our first, a boy, slept 7-8 hours from about day 5, was amenable to all foods as they became appropriate, played well with other kids, etc. This was very fortunate because we were only 18 and didn't know fuck-all about life, much less rearing kids. Our second, eight years later, a girl, was colicky, fussy, difficult, you name it. We too learned some humility. She eventually outgrew all that and is a wonderful adult, even an over achiever. As for the "gold standard" - I grew up like that. My oldest brother, the firstborn, was the standard my other brother and I were always compared to and found wanting. I could tell you stories... #### Toni ##### Contributor That's my experience. Our first, a boy, slept 7-8 hours from about day 5, was amenable to all foods as they became appropriate, played well with other kids, etc. This was very fortunate because we were only 18 and didn't know fuck-all about life, much less rearing kids. Our second, eight years later, a girl, was colicky, fussy, difficult, you name it. We too learned some humility. She eventually outgrew all that and is a wonderful adult, even an over achiever. As for the "gold standard" - I grew up like that. My oldest brother, the firstborn, was the standard my other brother and I were always compared to and found wanting. I could tell you stories... We were early 20's with our first so yeah, we knew nothing. I think the kicker for me that crystalized exactly how much we were supposed to emulate the first born in my family is the time my father decreed I could only attend a school dance if I wore the same dress my sister had worn previously to a much more formal dance a few years earlier. She was about 40 lbs heavier than I was, the dress was pink (I hate pink and never wore it) chiffon (very difficult to alter unless you are a professional and I certainly was not plus it was HER dress) and made for a spring prom rather than a winter less formal dance. Fortunately, I did not particularly want to go so it was not an issue. But geeze....By the time I was 9, her hand me downs had never fit me so ?????? #### Jimmy Higgins ##### Contributor My daughter at Mid-Ohio. She likes Alex Palou, but likes the trucks even more. #### crazyfingers ##### Supermagnon Staff member I'm trying to get my daughter to save money. She spends like crazy but she needs a car. I have already given her the car that I inherited from my parents and her boyfriend, who is living with her at my parents house, which I am letting her live at rent-free and I'm paying the utilities, wants me to help her with a down payment on a second car so that she can go get a job. OK we want to help. But now she wants to go spend$300 on a pet Maine Coon cat.

She gets really put out that I don't just agree. But no, I don't agree. She seems to think I have limitless money but with stocks down we are not just selling stocks at 30% below they used to be.

Has anyone had the problem of trying to get a son or daughter to save if they want financial help from you?

#### rousseau

##### Contributor
I'm trying to get my daughter to save money. She spends like crazy but she needs a car. I have already given her the car that I inherited from my parents and her boyfriend, who is living with her at my parents house, which I am letting her live at rent-free and I'm paying the utilities, wants me to help her with a down payment on a second car so that she can go get a job. OK we want to help.

But now she wants to go spend $300 on a pet Maine Coon cat. She gets really put out that I don't just agree. But no, I don't agree. She seems to think I have limitless money but with stocks down we are not just selling stocks at 30% below they used to be. Has anyone had the problem of trying to get a son or daughter to save if they want financial help from you? I'm obviously on the other end of the spectrum, but to me it seems like your situation is somewhat unusual given the age and temperament of your daughter. It's a sticky situation because you want her to learn responsibility, but also not let her self-destruct. My thought is that you could decide where your 'hard but respectful' boundary is, and stick to it. To me it seems like people often need to experience life's lessons first-hand, and if your daughter can always count on you to help her out of jam, she won't necessarily learn the requisite responsibility she needs to manage her own money. So maybe you can't force her to save, but you can let her eventually experience the consequences of not saving, which will give her a dose of why she should be financially responsible. You could do something like instead of paying the down payment on her car, pay half of it, and let her come up with the rest. And if she can't keep up the payments let her lose it. Ultimately you'd need to decide where your line is. I think the caveat is that you'd want to go at the above from a place of respect, and not just hang her mistakes over her head. Be up front about your plans and intentions, no surprises or rug pulling. I'll help you with [x] and that's it. #### Toni ##### Contributor I'm trying to get my daughter to save money. She spends like crazy but she needs a car. I have already given her the car that I inherited from my parents and her boyfriend, who is living with her at my parents house, which I am letting her live at rent-free and I'm paying the utilities, wants me to help her with a down payment on a second car so that she can go get a job. OK we want to help. But now she wants to go spend$300 on a pet Maine Coon cat.

She gets really put out that I don't just agree. But no, I don't agree. She seems to think I have limitless money but with stocks down we are not just selling stocks at 30% below they used to be.

Has anyone had the problem of trying to get a son or daughter to save if they want financial help from you?
OK, so I'm not sure I understand: she has a functioning car, her grandmother's, that you've turned over to her? She's living rent/utility free. She needs 2 cars so that she can get a job? Or is the boyfriend using the mom's car? In which case, that's her problem and she needs to figure it out. Very few people get the amount of help your daughter is getting from you.

You're extremely generous to your daughter and I definitely understand why you have allowed her to live in your mom's old house and have given her your mom's old car. You can afford it, it was there, and you love and want to help your daughter because she's had a rough time, in addition to being a young adult. But there is no reason that I can see that you need to even partially fund a second car.

Just say no. You don't need to say this outloud, but by saying no, you are giving your daughter the invaluable gift of her learning to figure it out-what she can and cannot afford, what she does and does not need, and how to earn for herself what she needs. This is a very difficult lesson for parents as well as for adult offspring.

FWIW my daughter has lived on her own, entirely self sufficiently since she was at least 21, without even a driver's license. The lack of a driver's license has hampered her ability to earn a living and to live where she wanted to live but it's entirely her choice--she has to live with it.

My personal limits with regards to helping my young adult children were always: I don't buy cars for people and I don't pay rent for people. When my kids were much younger, some of their friends had the kind of predictable young driver accidents, all with cars their parents purchased for them. I observed that they were much more careful with cars they bought for themselves and because I strongly valued my kids' lives, I resolved not to purchase cars for them. However, I did pass along my old car to one of my kids (who has a college degree, is an army vet, has been self sufficient for years) who had just purchased his first home (and so was very cash poor) when his old clunker died permanently and he was in a fix for transportation. It's been....5 years and he's still driving the vehicle that I gave to him with close to 300K miles on it.

Each of my kids had a different path to financial responsibility. For 2 of them, this has been being able to make both sides of a penny squeal as they pinch it tighter. Another, who in his younger days, had zero sense of the value of any denomination of money, actually has learned to be very careful with his money and to live within the budget he has set. No more spending stupid money on even stupider junk. And...he even learned to be a very good cook because it's much cheaper than eating out.

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#### crazyfingers

##### Supermagnon
Staff member
Now she says that the cat is free if she'll just pick her friend up at the airport. The friend is a breeder.

She also says they, her boyfriend and her, don't want a second car at this time. She is planning to get a job she can do remotely. Planning anyway.

But the boyfriend definitely needs to use the car because he is currently the only one with an income. He works in the shipping department at an electronics manufacturer about 55 minutes drive away.

Here is a picture of the cat.

#### Rhea

##### Cyborg with a Tiara
Staff member
But I am curious how you (Toni), and others who had multiples, experienced the development of subsequent children after your first. Not for any reason, just curiosity. I also wonder if your (Toni) age made a difference, because IIRC you would have been around your mid-twenties when you had your second? Ten years earlier than me.

Ours are 2.5 years apart, and we were older when we had them, like you.

Developmentally, we always felt we needed to support the younger in not feeling like a failure for not being at the same level as her older sibling. He was 2 years ahead, so of course he’s ahead. But she always felt inadequate. So there was a lot of support there.

We did try to make sure they had appropriate opportunities to gain skills and privileges. So that if the younger wanted to do chores like her brother so that she could get things like her brother, we worked with her.

When they were the age of yours, Rousseau, we did what we could to make sure older could have his older things without danger to younger, though we did delay the tiny legos until younger was safe around them.

Younger just ADORED older. Still does. She’d wake up from nap and shout his name and run to look for him. We gave him opportunities to get nice things if he included her. “Yes, we can buy this thing, but it is for both of you and you will need to share it. Are you okay with that?” And then some things, “yes we will get this, but you will need to keep it in Momma’s room because it is not safe for baby.” Once the swallow-danger age was over, all toys went back to the livingroom.

One thing we decided early on was that the kids would play in a family area, not alone in their rooms. So all toys lived in the living room. That was kid-world. The bedroom had only beds, and nothing else. (They shared a bedroom until oder was 12). So playing was with family, not behind closed doors and excluding. This worked very very well for us and I have no regrets of havng a kid-chaos living room for 18 years. They had to learn to share and talk through sharing, because they could not isolate themselves.

Side note into the teen years - we did not have doors on the bedrooms (due to non-uniform heating issues in the house - but it turned out to be something I would 100% recommend!) So they could not be locked, and they could not be slammed. They got a curtain to block light, and daughter eventually created a curtain of hanging flower garlands, but that’s another one I have no regrets. We respected the space of their rooms except for cleaning and safety, but there was never any case of “I physically bock you out.” I think they appreciated when younger that there was nothing between us, and when older that it was expected to knock on the door frame or announce an approach.

One thing that's standing out after the transition to two is how thoroughly little free time we have. Most days we're going from morning to night with negligible downtime. This wasn't unexpected, and I imagine it'll get better, but it has been eye-opening.

Yeah, that’s real, isn’t it! We marveled at the milestones of getting our time back. We loved the childhood of the kids and don’t regret the time investment… but when we go to the milestones that restored freedom - we celebrated:
• When they can get themselves to the toilet. WOW! So much time back!
• When they can get themselves into the car and buckle up.
• When they learn to color or play with clay
• When they learn to read!
• When they become bored in the grocery store instead of needy (I let them sit in the cart with a book - so relaxing for me!)
• When they can play alone and don’t need you if you’re on the phone or cooking.
• When they can help set up a tent
• When they can cook alone
• When they can stay home alone
• When they can drive!
But fun the whole time.

#### rousseau

##### Contributor
Yeah, that’s real, isn’t it! We marveled at the milestones of getting our time back. We loved the childhood of the kids and don’t regret the time investment… but when we go to the milestones that restored freedom - we celebrated:

Thanks for the post.

I don't mind spending most of my time with them, but what I've found hard so far is the complete lack of time to ourselves. When it was just our toddler and his bedtime was consistent, he'd go down at about 7:30 and we were guaranteed a bit of rest every day. It made a big difference.

So lately when we want some me time the kids become appendages, we go where we want and drag them along. Some days we'll do stuff for them, other days we'll do stuff for us.

We are getting some of our night back now that our baby's hit the three month mark. And it's been great watching our toddler enter the world of language, he's got a pretty strong vocabulary at this point.

#### Toni

##### Contributor
Yeah, that’s real, isn’t it! We marveled at the milestones of getting our time back. We loved the childhood of the kids and don’t regret the time investment… but when we go to the milestones that restored freedom - we celebrated:

Thanks for the post.

I don't mind spending most of my time with them, but what I've found hard so far is the complete lack of time to ourselves. When it was just our toddler and his bedtime was consistent, he'd go down at about 7:30 and we were guaranteed a bit of rest every day. It made a big difference.

So lately when we want some me time the kids become appendages, we go where we want and drag them along. Some days we'll do stuff for them, other days we'll do stuff for us.

We are getting some of our night back now that our baby's hit the three month mark. And it's been great watching our toddler enter the world of language, he's got a pretty strong vocabulary at this point.
You can take turns giving each other a break; walk or reading or shower or meal prep ALONE, even for an hour. And also the opportunity for some one on one time with the big one and also with the small one.

I know how impossible this sounds to you right now, but these days go so fast!

#### rousseau

##### Contributor
Yeah, that’s real, isn’t it! We marveled at the milestones of getting our time back. We loved the childhood of the kids and don’t regret the time investment… but when we go to the milestones that restored freedom - we celebrated:

Thanks for the post.

I don't mind spending most of my time with them, but what I've found hard so far is the complete lack of time to ourselves. When it was just our toddler and his bedtime was consistent, he'd go down at about 7:30 and we were guaranteed a bit of rest every day. It made a big difference.

So lately when we want some me time the kids become appendages, we go where we want and drag them along. Some days we'll do stuff for them, other days we'll do stuff for us.

We are getting some of our night back now that our baby's hit the three month mark. And it's been great watching our toddler enter the world of language, he's got a pretty strong vocabulary at this point.
You can take turns giving each other a break; walk or reading or shower or meal prep ALONE, even for an hour. And also the opportunity for some one on one time with the big one and also with the small one.

I know how impossible this sounds to you right now, but these days go so fast!

There's been some of that, usually when one of us has some kind of special event come up. A few days ago I took them both while she went out for dinner with her co-workers, late May she took them to her parents while I watched the Champion's League Final.

Truthfully, I have a hard time asking for a break for no reason. And most of what I do in our city is visit bookstores, which is pretty agreeable with our toddler. Occasionally I'll do groceries and not bring him, which is a bit of a reprieve. And when my wife does decide to take them for a full day I often just get a bit listless. All I really need is a few hours to relax before bed.

Usually I try to minimize the time she's alone with both, but she doesn't tend to go out too often without either (I do offer). Most of her social events end up being child-related, play dates, play groups etc.

What I tend not to do much is go out alone with the baby, but I do take my time with him at home. We'll walk around the block together, walk around our backyard, or I'll just prop him up on my legs and play with him. Toddler also appreciates this as it gives him alone time with mom.

#### Toni

##### Contributor
Yeah, that’s real, isn’t it! We marveled at the milestones of getting our time back. We loved the childhood of the kids and don’t regret the time investment… but when we go to the milestones that restored freedom - we celebrated:

Thanks for the post.

I don't mind spending most of my time with them, but what I've found hard so far is the complete lack of time to ourselves. When it was just our toddler and his bedtime was consistent, he'd go down at about 7:30 and we were guaranteed a bit of rest every day. It made a big difference.

So lately when we want some me time the kids become appendages, we go where we want and drag them along. Some days we'll do stuff for them, other days we'll do stuff for us.

We are getting some of our night back now that our baby's hit the three month mark. And it's been great watching our toddler enter the world of language, he's got a pretty strong vocabulary at this point.
You can take turns giving each other a break; walk or reading or shower or meal prep ALONE, even for an hour. And also the opportunity for some one on one time with the big one and also with the small one.

I know how impossible this sounds to you right now, but these days go so fast!

There's been some of that, usually when one of us has some kind of special event come up. A few days ago I took them both while she went out for dinner with her co-workers, late May she took them to her parents while I watched the Champion's League Final.

Truthfully, I have a hard time asking for a break for no reason. And most of what I do in our city is visit bookstores, which is pretty agreeable with our toddler. Occasionally I'll do groceries and not bring him, which is a bit of a reprieve. And when my wife does decide to take them for a full day I often just get a bit listless. All I really need is a few hours to relax before bed.

Usually I try to minimize the time she's alone with both, but she doesn't tend to go out too often without either (I do offer). Most of her social events end up being child-related, play dates, play groups etc.

What I tend not to do much is go out alone with the baby, but I do take my time with him at home. We'll walk around the block together, walk around our backyard, or I'll just prop him up on my legs and play with him. Toddler also appreciates this as it gives him alone time with mom.
When my kids were small, what I really appreciated was the opportunity to have a few hours or even just a couple to read uninterrupted. Or to take a bath without anyone joining me. Like your wife, most of my social time involved getting together with other mothers of young children and the kids playing while we had some tea and conversation. It was very interrupted conversation but still....

#### rousseau

##### Contributor
When my kids were small, what I really appreciated was the opportunity to have a few hours or even just a couple to read uninterrupted. Or to take a bath without anyone joining me. Like your wife, most of my social time involved getting together with other mothers of young children and the kids playing while we had some tea and conversation. It was very interrupted conversation but still....

She's in early childhood education, and most of her friends from work started having babies around the same time. So there's been lots of opportunity for play dates. And it kills two birds with one stone as we end up building relationships with other families and I get dad friends.

She's not much of a reader, but I'll often pull out a book when we're with the kids. I read so much over the past decade that nothing I read is too urgent, but I figure it does model reading for them.

#### Toni

##### Contributor
When my kids were small, what I really appreciated was the opportunity to have a few hours or even just a couple to read uninterrupted. Or to take a bath without anyone joining me. Like your wife, most of my social time involved getting together with other mothers of young children and the kids playing while we had some tea and conversation. It was very interrupted conversation but still....

She's in early childhood education, and most of her friends from work started having babies around the same time. So there's been lots of opportunity for play dates. And it kills two birds with one stone as we end up building relationships with other families and I get dad friends.

She's not much of a reader, but I'll often pull out a book when we're with the kids. I read so much over the past decade that nothing I read is too urgent, but I figure it does model reading for them.
I don't think I've ever associated the word urgent with reading for pleasure.

#### rousseau

##### Contributor
When my kids were small, what I really appreciated was the opportunity to have a few hours or even just a couple to read uninterrupted. Or to take a bath without anyone joining me. Like your wife, most of my social time involved getting together with other mothers of young children and the kids playing while we had some tea and conversation. It was very interrupted conversation but still....

She's in early childhood education, and most of her friends from work started having babies around the same time. So there's been lots of opportunity for play dates. And it kills two birds with one stone as we end up building relationships with other families and I get dad friends.

She's not much of a reader, but I'll often pull out a book when we're with the kids. I read so much over the past decade that nothing I read is too urgent, but I figure it does model reading for them.
I don't think I've ever associated the word urgent with reading for pleasure.

Poor word choice maybe? I'm mostly into non-fiction, but don't come across too many books I'd call myself passionate about these days. So I'll pick them up when I have some time, but can usually take or leave them.

#### Toni

##### Contributor
I think I mostly see (fiction) books as old friends; new ones as new old friends. I'm making an effort to read more non-fiction but I don't get lost in those the way I do in a good novel.

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
My daughter at Mid-Ohio. She likes Alex Palou, but likes the trucks even more.

Apparently the photo didn't show up. Had another one of those med days on race day when we were primarily staying in one spot. I noticed she went spacey and was staring off into nothingness. Gave her 5 mg of her medicine and in five or ten minutes she suddenly and actively engaged. I need to do better in picking up when this happens.

Much like in Chicago where unmedicated daughter (I forgot, it was 6 AM) at Adler Planetarium was bouncing from thing to thing and medicated daughter at Shedd Aquarium next morning was reading the exhibits.

I always feared the "overmedicating" thing, but for her, she needs it. So much, it makes such a difference in her ability to concentrate or sometimes to be where she is. Probably going to shift her to a dose during school.

#### crazyfingers

##### Supermagnon
Staff member
Stinky feet and stinky arm pits!!

#### crazyfingers

##### Supermagnon
Staff member
I just endured a 45 minute call with my daughter with complains and poor me and almost yelling at me for all of the things what are wrong with her life as if it's our fault that her biomom neglected her and she had to be put out for adoption at 3 and half years old.

For years because of her Reactive Attachment Disorder she terrorized our home, me, my wife, the boys. She was hospitalized 18 times for dangerous behaviors. She had to live at a residential school for a year. I will never be the same. I was never that much of an anxious person before the kids.

My wife will never be the same. The boys will never be the same. For years she'd scream and hit and threw things and kick holes in the walls and but she thinks that my wife in particular should be over that trauma and be able to take all the unending drama that my daughter runs into. The boys and I loved in the basement it seems for years while my daughter screamed and yelled upstairs.

My wife simply can not get drawn into more drama. She's reached the limit. She has to protect her own mental health. For that reason she can't spend lots of time on the phone with my daughter. She doesn't respond to most of her texts. But because of her ADHD she doesn't respond very often to my txts or those of the boys.

My wife loves our daughter a lot. But when the drama flairs up she just can't take it. It makes her physically sick being exposed to my daughters drama and especially her tone of voice when she's elevated. My daughter visits for an evening and things are fine but if my daughter gets aggitated my wife can not take being retraumatized

And so because I do answer my daughters calls I get it all yelled to at me. And I just had to take an anxiety pill.

I hate it that when my daughter calls I have no idea if she's going to be happy about something for if it's going to be a 30-45 minute crying, yelling and venting call when it's all directed at me as if a verbal assault. I love her too. She's living at my parents house and we are not charging rent or charging for any of the utilities. We slip her some money from time to time for things that come up. I gave her my parent's car but she's mad that when my sons finally get their licenses we may get them a car too. Saturday, because their money is tight I will be going over there to buy my daughter a \$165 down trash sticker.

Yes my daughter started out life shitty. Her biomom really screwed her up with Reactive Attachment Disorder. But we have done everything we can do to help her make a success of herself but she somehow keeps losing her jobs. I can't fix everything. And yet it gets all thrown back at us.

Her boyfriend is living at my parents house too because his family is a total mess and he got thrown out. They want to get married but I sure hope that between the two of them they don't end up pushing each other away.

A person can only take so much drama inclicted upon oneself by someone we love but can only do so much to help.

#### Toni

##### Contributor
Hugs to you all. That’s a tough set of circumstances from the beginning to present for all of you,

The only think I can suggest is to decide what limits you (all) can live with and set them. Try to stick with them.