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rousseau

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Congrats!

I always thought sleep regression coincided with growth spurts, so it's not so much a regression per se, but rather the baby has higher metabolic needs (eats more, so consequently wakes more). In the early days we fed our son pretty much any time he cried. Sometimes it'd be something else, but it was rare.
 

Toni

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Sure but physical growth isn’t the only kind of growth spurt that happens. Some kids are better at going back to sleep on their own than others. For my kids, having a very relaxed routine helped get them down. In toddler years, as their need to sleep was shifting, and they were more aware that life went on outside of their bedrooms—and were mobile enough to do something about it, sometimes they had trouble staying in bed—or rather, we had trouble with them popping up wanting another story, drink, cuddle, bathroom and frankly whatever excuse they could come up with. For my kids, it was actually more helpful for doors to their bedroom to be left open so that they could hear the quiet sounds of the adult evening going in—music or television, pages turning in books, quiet conversation or the sounds of dishes being washed and the living room straightened. Nothing too exciting so they really weren’t missing out too much. At different ages, sometimes one of us needed to be very near the bedroom, so they could see or hear us. I would make a big (but very quiet) show of putting away laundry, for example, taking multiple trips past their open doors. And for a couple, I sometimes sat in the floor outside their bedroom, quietly reading, so they could see me and hear me. There was a week ir two with each of them where there was a lot of bounce back to bed routines. We just tried to make it as quiet and as boring —and as matter of fact as possible, it kept the excitement from being fed and didn’t provide any motivation to stay awake to see what the Grownups were up to: just boring stuff…

Which reminds me of when our oldest successfully lobbied for a 10 pm bedtime. He was so excited! And sorely disappointed that there was no special exciting adult magic going on.
 

rousseau

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I was mainly just noting what we found with our infant. IIRC, in the first year they can't really be overfed, a parents main job is pumping them full of milk and transitioning them to solids (flavour window and baby led weaning!). Once they're firmly past one year old the equation changes as their growth slows significantly. Maybe around 9 - 11 months is the time to start nudging them away from night feeds, but at the very least no earlier than 4 months. Opinions will vary.

In my experience the term 'sleep regression' can be pernicious as many parents misunderstand it as 'why won't my baby sleep' when it's really 'my baby is actually just hungry'.
 

rousseau

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Sure but physical growth isn’t the only kind of growth spurt that happens. Some kids are better at going back to sleep on their own than others. For my kids, having a very relaxed routine helped get them down. In toddler years, as their need to sleep was shifting, and they were more aware that life went on outside of their bedrooms—and were mobile enough to do something about it, sometimes they had trouble staying in bed—or rather, we had trouble with them popping up wanting another story, drink, cuddle, bathroom and frankly whatever excuse they could come up with. For my kids, it was actually more helpful for doors to their bedroom to be left open so that they could hear the quiet sounds of the adult evening going in—music or television, pages turning in books, quiet conversation or the sounds of dishes being washed and the living room straightened. Nothing too exciting so they really weren’t missing out too much. At different ages, sometimes one of us needed to be very near the bedroom, so they could see or hear us. I would make a big (but very quiet) show of putting away laundry, for example, taking multiple trips past their open doors. And for a couple, I sometimes sat in the floor outside their bedroom, quietly reading, so they could see me and hear me. There was a week ir two with each of them where there was a lot of bounce back to bed routines. We just tried to make it as quiet and as boring —and as matter of fact as possible, it kept the excitement from being fed and didn’t provide any motivation to stay awake to see what the Grownups were up to: just boring stuff…

Which reminds me of when our oldest successfully lobbied for a 10 pm bedtime. He was so excited! And sorely disappointed that there was no special exciting adult magic going on.

This turned out to be a timely post as our son just made a huge shift in the past week. For months we had a consistent and predictable routine, but now he seems to be doing similar as you mention. He knows he can push to stay up later, and from what I can tell just wants to be with us after he's gone down.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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My daughter has this hat.

FCA6E835-4801-4AF9-9123-8DCA61871F1C.jpeg

She says the kids at school “... call it a cheetah hat. But I think it is an ocelot. Cheetahs are more yellow.”

And I’m wondering, ocelot?! She get that from Wild Kratts, her nation geographic animal atlas. I had to look the animal up!
 

Jimmy Higgins

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My daughter has this hat.

View attachment 37917

She says the kids at school “... call it a cheetah hat. But I think it is an ocelot. Cheetahs are more yellow.”
I think you have to go more by the spots. Solid or donuts with a brown center, that sort of thing. Individual or linked into chains.
She actually mentioned that whrn i asked her. She Said they were larger for ocelot.
 

Keith&Co.

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My daughter has this hat.

View attachment 37917

She says the kids at school “... call it a cheetah hat. But I think it is an ocelot. Cheetahs are more yellow.”
I think you have to go more by the spots. Solid or donuts with a brown center, that sort of thing. Individual or linked into chains.
She actually mentioned that whrn i asked her. She Said they were larger for ocelot.
Smart kid. Buy her a panda.
 

Toni

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My daughter has this hat.

View attachment 37917

She says the kids at school “... call it a cheetah hat. But I think it is an ocelot. Cheetahs are more yellow.”
I think you have to go more by the spots. Solid or donuts with a brown center, that sort of thing. Individual or linked into chains.
She actually mentioned that whrn i asked her. She Said they were larger for ocelot.
Smart kid. Buy her a panda.
Which kind?
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Red pandas in our house are called "darn raccoons".

And red pandas definitely would be nice in the home as they are effectively a living / breathing Swifter.
 

Keith&Co.

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Red pandas in our house are called "darn raccoons".

And red pandas definitely would be nice in the home as they are effectively a living / breathing Swifter.
So, get her a damn raccoon. And when you tell her to clean her room, she throws rice on the floor and goes to watch TV. "Chow's working on it!"
 

Toni

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Red pandas in our house are called "darn raccoons".

And red pandas definitely would be nice in the home as they are effectively a living / breathing Swifter.
So, get her a damn raccoon. And when you tell her to clean her room, she throws rice on the floor and goes to watch TV. "Chow's working on it!"
Uh, baby raccoons are sweet and fun. Adult raccoons are not and do not make good pets, even if they are raised in a loving, well intentioned household. Their teeth and claws are sharp and they are very very clever.

I don’t know about red pandas.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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At our home red pandas = "darn raccoons". Just something that happened... stuff like that happens often.

Every Xmas, I put out a Panda trap so we can have Panda Filet with brunch, but it never works.

1649171076732.png
 

rousseau

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Thinking about the fact lately that I've put our eldest down at night five nights per week from about the time he was 14 months (he's now 22). Originally the idea was to give mom a break, but now that I've done it for so long I'm recognizing how special this is.

I was putting him down last night and suddenly it hit me that last July I had a baby, and now I have a full blown, very big toddler (who's still very much a baby). It was great getting to see that progression, and now watch the progression continue.

Then I wake up at 3 AM to feed my 1 week old baby, and rock him back to sleep. It's very much like going back in time and getting to start from the beginning again.

As a side-note: when we just had our eldest, the advice leave the mess didn't really apply. With the two of them it very much applies.
 

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Daughter decided to jam the Nintendo Wii with a game disc. This might or might not have broken the drive's ability to work. Opened it up, a couple plastic pieces fell out. Tried to figure out the drive... remembered I suck at mechanical things. Looked online and ordered a Wii disc drive replacement. Plugged that in, and the games played again. The Wii doesn't look quite as nice as it did, but again... not my strength.

My daughter up to this point, had been really good with electronics, for the most part, including disc handling! Got her a Chromebook when was 5 to do education apps on. So I was a bit surprised at this breakdown. And of course, she needs to tell me this is happening while I'm holding a chainsaw...

No really, I was cutting out the overgrown bushes (almost trees at this point) in the front of the house and she comes out telling me there is a problem... the Wii isn't reading the discs. I remind her I'm kind of busy. So she then systematically checks every Wii game to see if it it will read them (it could read two), but couldn't play any of them. I get in there, she admits her error. So proud, so disappointed at the same time. :D

First world parent problems.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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So, found out The Musical Box (Genesis tribute band) was coming to town and doing The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway show, ie, just like it was performed back in the 70s. Cordi likes this album. So I asked if she were interested. She said yes. I checked tickets, held off. Asked again, she said yes again. Checked tickets again and third row seats popped up. So at $50 a pop (nothing for tickets these days!), got a pair. We saw the show last night, she was definitely youngest in attendance. I saw a few teenagers, so I wasn't the second youngest by a bit.

She liked the first part more than the second, which was as expected. But she held it together, which was great, only getting a bit squirmy near the end. They finished with The Musical Box and Watchers of the Sky, which she isn't as big a fan, but made it to the end. The costumes kept her interest late into the show.

This was her first indoor rock concert. She wants to see Alan Parsons, so if he gets back in the area, try to do that. He has a new album coming out, so that could work. Parsons is a bit more accessible sound wise.
 

crazyfingers

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The boys and I will be going to see the Dead and Company July 2 at Gillette Stadium and July 6 at Saratoga Springs, NY. It will be the 3rd summer we've seen part of the summer tour as it went by. 2019, 2021 and 2022. Always a great time. The scene is so much like when I went with my friends in the 1980's and 1990s. Maybe a bit more mellow. There are now 75 year olds mixed in with teenagers.

The boys love it. Since they were able to say just a few words they have been subjected to Grateful Dead in the car. It sunk in.
 

rousseau

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I have a childless college-friend in a nearby city who, with the pandemic winding down, keeps going out to concerts. I'm jealous, I could use a night out and a few beers. On our end we've had both boys in bed by 8:30 the last few nights, which has been the most downtime we've had in the evening for weeks.

We are going out a lot lately, though, we just have to bring them with us, and it's usually either family-friendly restaurants or kids activities. I actually took this past Thursday and Friday off for a staycation, we went to a nearby zoo one day, and a children's amusement park the other.
 

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Did the 2 mile race with my daughter. She went from start to finish without walking. Looking at the results, she is definitely not high-end competitive wise with kids her age, but she has never really trained. Girls on the Run ain't about training how to run competitively.

Really no reason to push her for a few years still, other than teaching her how to pace, which she did pretty well in this race. And honestly, that is an experience thing as well. More small races, more experience and she learns how she can do.

Local 1-miler coming up. Maybe do that course this weekend, to get a feel for that distance.
 

crazyfingers

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My two boys have not been getting along well ever since they went to their concert on June 9. They just had a big verbal blowout. One has ADHD and is excitable. The other is on the autism spectrum and shuts down. That one NEVER says that he's sorry for anything. Both have extremely low self esteem.

At least they are both past the stage of kicking holes in their walls or throwing breakables around the house.

All three have traumatized me since they moved in in 2004.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Daughter has been talking about going to Mid-Ohio Indycar race for months. Been trying to figure out how to do it, and the cost for General Admission for the whole thing (she is free) isn't much more than the race. And with grandstand tickets nearly sold out, I don't need to wonder if that is worth it (she wouldn't be free for that). She actually watched a practice session on tv along with me. Will need to get her an Alex Palou shirt, she likes Alex Palou. Don't think she could ID him, but he won the first race she was adjacent to, and it stuck.

Got in-field parking passes to reduce the amount of walking, so I don't need to lug everything around with me. And Paddock as well. She isn't old enough to go into the Pit. :( But the Paddock has a sweet view of the Pit. :)

Saturday will be grandstanding, wandering around like last time. Need to figure how to keep her engaged on Sunday, because seating is a premium for General Admission, and it isn't wise to wander around. I'm not certain what "the code" is for that. We'll need to bring seats. Also have a small beach tent, could be good if it is very bright or very wet.
My two boys have not been getting along well ever since they went to their concert on June 9. They just had a big verbal blowout. One has ADHD and is excitable. The other is on the autism spectrum and shuts down. That one NEVER says that he's sorry for anything. Both have extremely low self esteem.

At least they are both past the stage of kicking holes in their walls or throwing breakables around the house.

All three have traumatized me since they moved in in 2004.
The three children you helped raise sound very very far from baseline and that can't have been easy... or really even hard, ie well beyond hard. I can't imagine having two kids like my daughter. Forget three!

My daughter who is on the edge of the Autistic Spectrum has a similar 'sorry' issue. She'll say sorry over the dumbest most inconsequential things. Like if I tell her to put the remote down (she has a fiddling with things issue... got it from me), "sorry, sorry, sorry". Breaks the Wii... nothing! Nice to hear maybe that is just a thing with her mind.
 

ZiprHead

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Daughter has been talking about going to Mid-Ohio Indycar race for months. Been trying to figure out how to do it, and the cost for General Admission for the whole thing (she is free) isn't much more than the race. And with grandstand tickets nearly sold out, I don't need to wonder if that is worth it (she wouldn't be free for that). She actually watched a practice session on tv along with me. Will need to get her an Alex Palou shirt, she likes Alex Palou. Don't think she could ID him, but he won the first race she was adjacent to, and it stuck.
Jealous.

You get a much better idea of how fast those cars are really going when you see them live.
 

Toni

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My two boys have not been getting along well ever since they went to their concert on June 9. They just had a big verbal blowout. One has ADHD and is excitable. The other is on the autism spectrum and shuts down. That one NEVER says that he's sorry for anything. Both have extremely low self esteem.

At least they are both past the stage of kicking holes in their walls or throwing breakables around the house.

All three have traumatized me since they moved in in 2004.
You know, raising kids is a lot of work--definitely not for the faint of heart. When you are raising kids who came to you, not as newborns but with a history of trauma as well as some of their own medical/mental health/learning issues, that is really the work of heroes.

It's never smooth sailing with kids. I look back on my young adulthood and I think my parents must have been terrified/horrified. After all, I followed some strange guy who looked halfway like a hippie several states away, where I knew no one aside from said half a hippie guy, had no job and no place to live. About a year later, we were married and presented the first grandchild. I think the term that kid, now an adult might use would be 'shitting bricks' to express my parents' state of mind over my very sudden plans to decamp with someone who was practically a stranger (to them). OTOH, I was sure I was just fine and was going to be even better. To their tremendous credit, they were silent when I know they must have been near to bursting with warnings and advice and cautions--and criticism and blame--some of which was justified and some not. The fact that I turned out to be right: I was much more than OK and have had a pretty good life seems so random to me. There was almost nothing that predicted success at that point. But here we are, still crazy over 40 years and 4 kids, multiple cross state moves, two houses and several renovations later and still together, happy most of the time. I wish I had taken more than a little bit of that particular book —keep silent and smile if you are able—with my own kids. It is shocking, I am sure to learn that I sometimes have trouble with that keep silent and keep a smile plastered on your face bit.

You seem to have a really good knack for raising kids. It’s not an easy job, in the best circumstances. Your family has had more challenges than most. You should be very proud of your family.
 

rousseau

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We've been doing some pondering lately about our experience after our first was born, versus the experience with our second.

The first year absolutely flew by with our first. I spent most it in a state of anxiety and frustration while I was figuring everything out. But with our second it feels like we're watching him change in slow motion. We've been so busy the past few months that the days feel long and tiring. But there is absolutely no stress or anxiety this time, just calm observation.

It took me until our toddler was about 18 months to recognize: I can't miss any more stages. But with our baby I'm savoring every day and every change, no matter how small.

I'm trying not to ask too many more questions in this thread because it's usually Toni on the hook for an answer, and really.. we're doing fine. But I am curious how you (Toni), and others who had multiples, experienced the development of subsequent children after your first. Not for any reason, just curiosity. I also wonder if your (Toni) age made a difference, because IIRC you would have been around your mid-twenties when you had your second? Ten years earlier than me.
 

Toni

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For us, our first was a very easy child. He ate what was offered, slept when we put him down and aimed if we handed him over to someone. He was verbal early on and funny before he formed words we could understand. He was extremely social and outgoing. In fact he was such a neighborhood delight that he inspired multiple friends to have their own babies and one used his name as their kid’s middle name.

We thought it was because we were such good parents ts.

And then we had another child.

Who would only breast feed until he was old enough to eat from my plate—eschewing all baby food to the point that I simply mashed up what we were having with my fork and fed him that. Oh, and he liked Cheerios, but only the ones which fell on the floor. In fact it was quite a challenge when he was a toddler to keep him from eating all sorts of stuff he found on the ground or the sidewalk or at the bus stop. He did not take a nap reliably until just before #3 was born and did not sleep through the night until he was over 18 months old. I don’t remember precisely how old he was because I was exhausted. He did not verbalize early like his brother. I was worried he wasn’t quite as smart but he almost immediately went to full sentences once he began talking. He was clingy and did not socialize easily.

In short, we learned a LOT of humility.

So with the subsequent kids, we learned to draw zero comparisons and to enjoy them each for who they were.

I think that with our first, we were all about doing everything the ‘right’ way, which, lacking internet ( not yet invented) or parents nearby, we made up on our own. Oh, I read a lot and talked to other parents at but I worked full time and commuted until he was 2, so…fortunately we had an easy baby. Our mistake was thinking he was easy because we were good. Also, in retrospect, I recognize some of the struggles we did have but were so enamored with #1 that we just forgot there had ever been anything but bliss when he was a baby.

We learned to relax about a lot of things as the children came, partly because we had no choice—we were not magically awarded more hours in the day or more energy when we had a new baby. But also because we learned that a missed nap or gasp! a cookie or bite of ice cream was not the end of the world, that temper tantrums passed faster if you didn’t let them rattle you and could mostly be avoided if you paid attention and did not expect a hungry or over tired toddler to not mention down in the mall and instead scheduled around meal and nap times, for example.

We learned to let them be themselves and not to take any one child as a good standard. I was quick at this because my parents very much thought my older sibling was THE gold standard against which we were all measured and found wanting. Nor did I think that they had to be best friends ( although sometimes they are).

We also learned to really really appreciate them for who they are. And it was a little bittersweet going through everything with the youngest because we knew they’d be the last one, so I tried to hold on to moments a bit more, I think.

But I’ll stop now. You’re right: I do tend to run on a lot. I really enjoy children and I really loved raising mine, even on the no good terrible very bad days.
 

rousseau

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We learned to relax about a lot of things as the children came, partly because we had no choice—we were not magically awarded more hours in the day or more energy when we had a new baby. But also because we learned that a missed nap or gasp! a cookie or bite of ice cream was not the end of the world, that temper tantrums passed faster if you didn’t let them rattle you and could mostly be avoided if you paid attention and did not expect a hungry or over tired toddler to not mention down in the mall and instead scheduled around meal and nap times, for example.

This has been our experience as well. You're focused on not damaging the first, but with our second we're not letting much stress us out.

One thing that's standing out after the transition to two is how thoroughly little free time we have. Most days we're going from morning to night with negligible downtime. This wasn't unexpected, and I imagine it'll get better, but it has been eye-opening.

We have friends in the city who had two, tried for a third, and had twins. They don't have much help and you can tell that they're pretty much run ragged. I have another friend with four as well, this time planned, but she's been MIA since the fourth came.

Much respect for parents who have three or more. My wife and I love being parents, but two is more than enough for us.
 

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For us, our first was a very easy child. He ate what was offered, slept when we put him down and aimed if we handed him over to someone. He was verbal early on and funny before he formed words we could understand. He was extremely social and outgoing. In fact he was such a neighborhood delight that he inspired multiple friends to have their own babies and one used his name as their kid’s middle name.

We thought it was because we were such good parents ts.

And then we had another child.

Who would only breast feed until he was old enough to eat from my plate—eschewing all baby food to the point that I simply mashed up what we were having with my fork and fed him that. Oh, and he liked Cheerios, but only the ones which fell on the floor. In fact it was quite a challenge when he was a toddler to keep him from eating all sorts of stuff he found on the ground or the sidewalk or at the bus stop. He did not take a nap reliably until just before #3 was born and did not sleep through the night until he was over 18 months old. I don’t remember precisely how old he was because I was exhausted. He did not verbalize early like his brother. I was worried he wasn’t quite as smart but he almost immediately went to full sentences once he began talking. He was clingy and did not socialize easily.

In short, we learned a LOT of humility.

So with the subsequent kids, we learned to draw zero comparisons and to enjoy them each for who they were.

I think that with our first, we were all about doing everything the ‘right’ way, which, lacking internet ( not yet invented) or parents nearby, we made up on our own. Oh, I read a lot and talked to other parents at but I worked full time and commuted until he was 2, so…fortunately we had an easy baby. Our mistake was thinking he was easy because we were good. Also, in retrospect, I recognize some of the struggles we did have but were so enamored with #1 that we just forgot there had ever been anything but bliss when he was a baby.

We learned to relax about a lot of things as the children came, partly because we had no choice—we were not magically awarded more hours in the day or more energy when we had a new baby. But also because we learned that a missed nap or gasp! a cookie or bite of ice cream was not the end of the world, that temper tantrums passed faster if you didn’t let them rattle you and could mostly be avoided if you paid attention and did not expect a hungry or over tired toddler to not mention down in the mall and instead scheduled around meal and nap times, for example.

We learned to let them be themselves and not to take any one child as a good standard. I was quick at this because my parents very much thought my older sibling was THE gold standard against which we were all measured and found wanting. Nor did I think that they had to be best friends ( although sometimes they are).

We also learned to really really appreciate them for who they are. And it was a little bittersweet going through everything with the youngest because we knew they’d be the last one, so I tried to hold on to moments a bit more, I think.

But I’ll stop now. You’re right: I do tend to run on a lot. I really enjoy children and I really loved raising mine, even on the no good terrible very bad days.
That's my experience. Our first, a boy, slept 7-8 hours from about day 5, was amenable to all foods as they became appropriate, played well with other kids, etc. This was very fortunate because we were only 18 and didn't know fuck-all about life, much less rearing kids. Our second, eight years later, a girl, was colicky, fussy, difficult, you name it. We too learned some humility. She eventually outgrew all that and is a wonderful adult, even an over achiever.
As for the "gold standard" - I grew up like that. My oldest brother, the firstborn, was the standard my other brother and I were always compared to and found wanting. I could tell you stories...
 

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That's my experience. Our first, a boy, slept 7-8 hours from about day 5, was amenable to all foods as they became appropriate, played well with other kids, etc. This was very fortunate because we were only 18 and didn't know fuck-all about life, much less rearing kids. Our second, eight years later, a girl, was colicky, fussy, difficult, you name it. We too learned some humility. She eventually outgrew all that and is a wonderful adult, even an over achiever.
As for the "gold standard" - I grew up like that. My oldest brother, the firstborn, was the standard my other brother and I were always compared to and found wanting. I could tell you stories...
We were early 20's with our first so yeah, we knew nothing.

I think the kicker for me that crystalized exactly how much we were supposed to emulate the first born in my family is the time my father decreed I could only attend a school dance if I wore the same dress my sister had worn previously to a much more formal dance a few years earlier. She was about 40 lbs heavier than I was, the dress was pink (I hate pink and never wore it) chiffon (very difficult to alter unless you are a professional and I certainly was not plus it was HER dress) and made for a spring prom rather than a winter less formal dance. Fortunately, I did not particularly want to go so it was not an issue. But geeze....By the time I was 9, her hand me downs had never fit me so ??????
 
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