Picking one's battles when it comes to crime intervention

[fast]

The head stomping vandal freaks are punks who will not be shamed if they feel they have the upper hand.

Why exactly is it again we are told we should show these prisoners-to-be respect? Not necessarily these particular people but those like them. So, there they are, thugs, sitting in prison, looking at the camera telling the world how they should be treated with respect. Don't get me wrong, I've never bought into the simple-minded notion that respect should be earned. Of course, that's not to say respect shouldn't be earned. The problem isn't with the saying but the believed suggestion we shouldn't show respect to those that haven't earned it. Even prison guards know that we should be respectful (to a degree) just for being human beings, despite no earned respect otherwise. I would actually be a little bit tolerant of those so inclined to not show respect to those who always seem to think they deserve it. Never mind about how safer or easier it would be if inmates were given at least minimal levels of respect. Never mind there should be a minimal level of respect shown for just being human beings. How about a little bit of overt disrespect to those who would unjustly harm others, especially those in serious need of an attitude adjustment.

It's one thing (a bad thing) to be in the frame of mind that would lead to such harshness, but it's another thing (an even worse thing) to additionally be in the frame of mind to think we should be sympathetic to their demands for respect.

 

[Unbeatable]

I don't understand what brought about this tangent about "respect". Nobody in this thread has been speaking about respect, nor has the article in the OP. I've never been told that I should show violent thugs "respect", at least not in the sense that you're using the term. OTOH I am familiar with a different usage of "respect", which would perhaps be relevant to the OP's point. It is used in the context of wild animals-- to "respect" a wild animal would mean to stay out of its way, because it is dangerous when provoked and cannot be reasoned with.

 

[Eric H]

arkirk;

If our communities were truly closely knit, there would be less of this stuff.

I agree, these youngsters would grow up in a friendly community, and may well show more respect for their neighbours. Now we have fragmented families, who may not care about each other, this makes for fragmented communities who show little signs of caring.

I would like to see the town I live in, become kinder and more caring, for my family, friends and neighbours, this is very much the aims of the street pastor teams in our town. We wonder the streets until 3 am; it does mean taking a risk because we try and search for the good in all people, who may not be at their best on drugs and drinks.

Recently I was with another lady pastor, we are both in our sixties, we came across a dozen angry lads about 2 am, it escalated into a fight between two lads. The lady I was with got hold of one guys shirt and tried to pull him off the smaller lad, she was not having much luck being about five foot tall herself. A couple of minutes later the police came, and the guys all disappeared, we followed half a dozen of them round the corner and stopped with them for some time, they wanted to continue the fight. Then the big guy looked down at us and said, go away, you are intimidating us!

I said we would leave, but I was also phoning the police as I was not totally convinced they would resolve this peacefully, I did not want to see either of them hurt. We left and phoned the CCTV, who kept an eye on them, later the CCTV told us these lads chatted shook hands and left.

I guess our intimidation had led them to overcome their anger, there were no winners or losers.

 

[fast]

I don't understand what brought about this tangent about "respect". Nobody in this thread has been speaking about respect, nor has the article in the OP.

Exactly!

 

[arkirk]

The head stomping vandal freaks are punks who will not be shamed if they feel they have the upper hand.

Why exactly is it again we are told we should show these prisoners-to-be respect? Not necessarily these particular people but those like them. So, there they are, thugs, sitting in prison, looking at the camera telling the world how they should be treated with respect. Don't get me wrong, I've never bought into the simple-minded notion that respect should be earned. Of course, that's not to say respect shouldn't be earned. The problem isn't with the saying but the believed suggestion we shouldn't show respect to those that haven't earned it. Even prison guards know that we should be respectful (to a degree) just for being human beings, despite no earned respect otherwise. I would actually be a little bit tolerant of those so inclined to not show respect to those who always seem to think they deserve it. Never mind about how safer or easier it would be if inmates were given at least minimal levels of respect. Never mind there should be a minimal level of respect shown for just being human beings. How about a little bit of overt disrespect to those who would unjustly harm others, especially those in serious need of an attitude adjustment.

It's one thing (a bad thing) to be in the frame of mind that would lead to such harshness, but it's another thing (an even worse thing) to additionally be in the frame of mind to think we should be sympathetic to their demands for respect.

Respect is an aspect of knowledge and not of intimidation. If you do not respect the fact that a rattlesnake has teeth he can sink into you, you go ahead and play with it. I do feel that it is important to recognize threats to us all and isolate them. It is important with these thugs that THEY LEARN RESPECT...or be segregated from society...like maybe jail. But while they are isolated, it is only right to demonstrate that you do not treat others as they have done.

Every once in awhile, just plain civilians deal with these people and overpower thugs. They sometimes take some real beatings in the process. If we respected each other's human rights more, there would be more people helping when these situations arise. I in no way condone being cowed by bullies or vandals. Obviously if you are alone, you will not be taking on eight guys armed with tire irons. Discretion is the better part of valor. Either the thugs get the feeling of being isolated for their bad behavior or the surrounding society is nothing but a lot of sitting ducks for intimidation, loss and abuse.

 

[Unbeatable]

I don't understand what brought about this tangent about "respect". Nobody in this thread has been speaking about respect, nor has the article in the OP.

Exactly!

So was this a parody of arkirk's posting tendencies?

 

[fast]

The guy saw three young men upturning bins, told them off, and in response they nearly killed him, attacked his property, and have terrorised him and his family.

Told them huh. I don't particularly have a problem with telling them off, but he has a family he is supposed to look after, and although I'm not against taking chances, I do believe that's not the most tactful way to approach hoodlums, especially if the limits of his arsenal is his mouth.

He was only trying to do the right thing,

I learned years ago the difference between doing the right thing and doing things right. The problem is in how he did it. That's not to say calling the police would have been much more than a notch better. Heck, a charismatic berating of their actions could have led to a better outcome than would have come from police interaction--as the consequences of subsequent attacks wouldn't be unexpected behavior for these types of punks.

and certainly did not deserve to be assaulted, but he also demonstrated a severe failure to think before acting. Things could have much worse:

Yes, but why (why!) must we attribute this to intervening in crime? It's chancy, yes, but notice the bolding above. For instance, sure, you can say he intervened and see what happened, but at the same token, you could have said he disrespected the thugs and see what happened. See, you're right, the OP didn't mention it, nor did anyone else, but that's not my fault.

 

[Eric H]

bigfield;

Apart from the sheer pointlessness of the violence, the case illustrates a point: intervening in crime can carry a high risk of harm to oneself.

There is also the possibility that some good might come from the intervention. I can only say that as part of our Street Pastor team, we have intervened on numerous times in angry and violent situations. On every occasion if they had turned against us, we would have lost. In the six and a half years, I have never walked away from an incident, we have always tried to do something.

I don't know why, but every intervention has resulted in a calming of the situation, I truthfully believe some good happened each time, not to say that one day we could get beaten up. None of us do self defence, and most of us could not run if we had to.

I think the best combination is at least one man and one woman, often just being in the middle helps, we do not have to do much. An added bonus is when the community recognizes a bunch of pensioners wondering the streets at night, it gives them some confidence that things might not be as bad as they think.

 

[arkirk]

bigfield;

Apart from the sheer pointlessness of the violence, the case illustrates a point: intervening in crime can carry a high risk of harm to oneself.

There is also the possibility that some good might come from the intervention. I can only say that as part of our Street Pastor team, we have intervened on numerous times in angry and violent situations. On every occasion if they had turned against us, we would have lost. In the six and a half years, I have never walked away from an incident, we have always tried to do something.

I don't know why, but every intervention has resulted in a calming of the situation, I truthfully believe some good happened each time, not to say that one day we could get beaten up. None of us do self defence, and most of us could not run if we had to.

I think the best combination is at least one man and one woman, often just being in the middle helps, we do not have to do much. An added bonus is when the community recognizes a bunch of pensioners wondering the streets at night, it gives them some confidence that things might not be as bad as they think.

Your story is interesting, Eric. There is a lot to be said for people who intervene in crime situations, especially if it turns down the heat of aggression. One would have to almost not have the standard cop mentality in order to be a good cop. There are a few scattered here and there who do not automatically reach for authority and threat as their first tool in conflict. Lately we have seen a lot of unnecessary killing of black people by white cops,

If you can do something without resorting to force yet foreclose the criminal action, it is far better than tongue lashings and commands and aggression against people who sometimes are innocent. It is the variety of people a cop might meet or you might meet that is the problem and our prejudices about certain people color our suspicions and our animosity. So when this loud mouth steps up to some punks that outnumber him and showers them with insults, they may be wrong in their vandalism, but they still resent it and their vandalism becomes pounding on him. I was not even slightly amazed by the story.

 

[Eric H]

arkirk;
One would have to almost not have the standard cop mentality in order to be a good cop.

I think the police have an incredibly hard job, the youngsters seem to give them so much abuse, until the police have no other option, other than to arrest them. Often drink or drugs cloud the judgement of people, I am sure they would not behave the same when sober.

There is a lot to be said for people who intervene in crime situations, especially if it turns down the heat of aggression

We have a comprehensive training schedule, before we are allowed out, we work closely with the police, they brief us before going out, we have a direct phone link with them, but it was agreed that we would not have to be informants, unless it was something serious.

It is beyond my understanding, but most of the angry and violent situations we have been involved in, have ended up with hugs and handshakes, the ladies in our team also get kisses too.

I was out with one lady in her sixties, she struggles to walk for more than ten minutes, we came across a car of youngsters parked in the middle of the road around midnight. A number of their mates were also fooling around in the road by them, it looked as if they were waiting for a car to come by, then they would cause some mischief.

The lady I was with ignored all the lads, she went up to the driver and asked him if he could park his car by the kerb, he started the car up and parked it safely out the way. She then asked the lads in the road to move onto the pavement, at this point two big lads came right up to us, all the other lads were around us, and it felt threatening at the time. She looked up to the big lad and said, I am not afraid.

The next thing was, this big lad looked at her and said, do you want to come to our party, total change in mood, so we stopped with them a while, and they seemed an ok bunch of lads, lots of handshakes and hugs.

I often say, I don't know what we do, other than be there, I guess we confront situations, rather than confront people.

I would love to see more people get involved, but there is a certain amount of fear, they often say, do we have stab proof vests, are we taught self defence, and the answer is no.

 

[dx713]

I think the police have an incredibly hard job, the youngsters seem to give them so much abuse, until the police have no other option, other than to arrest them. Often drink or drugs cloud the judgement of people, I am sure they would not behave the same when sober.

There is a lot to be said for people who intervene in crime situations, especially if it turns down the heat of aggression

We have a comprehensive training schedule, before we are allowed out, we work closely with the police, they brief us before going out, we have a direct phone link with them, but it was agreed that we would not have to be informants, unless it was something serious.

It is beyond my understanding, but most of the angry and violent situations we have been involved in, have ended up with hugs and handshakes, the ladies in our team also get kisses too.

I was out with one lady in her sixties, she struggles to walk for more than ten minutes, we came across a car of youngsters parked in the middle of the road around midnight. A number of their mates were also fooling around in the road by them, it looked as if they were waiting for a car to come by, then they would cause some mischief.

The lady I was with ignored all the lads, she went up to the driver and asked him if he could park his car by the kerb, he started the car up and parked it safely out the way. She then asked the lads in the road to move onto the pavement, at this point two big lads came right up to us, all the other lads were around us, and it felt threatening at the time. She looked up to the big lad and said, I am not afraid.

The next thing was, this big lad looked at her and said, do you want to come to our party, total change in mood, so we stopped with them a while, and they seemed an ok bunch of lads, lots of handshakes and hugs.

I often say, I don't know what we do, other than be there, I guess we confront situations, rather than confront people.

I would love to see more people get involved, but there is a certain amount of fear, they often say, do we have stab proof vests, are we taught self defence, and the answer is no.

I think the moral of your stories is that if you are non-threatening, non-frustrating, and yet non-target, you can be much safer than one would assume.
You don't make them feel "bad guys" by showing fear, but at the same time you don't make them want to avenge or release frustration by insulting or pushing them, and there's nothing for them to earn by attacking you: I suppose you don't take visible luxury items to such patrols, and there's no fame to be gained by having punched an old woman.
The behaviour part can be learned, but some parts are out of reach for us. If I need my laptop elsewhere the next day, I can't leave work without my laptop in its bag.
If, like a friend of mine, you're a big muscular rugbyman, you can be the nicest non-confrontational man on earth out of the pitch, you're still going to have young and drunk punks wanting to prove they're badass by starting fights with you. If you're an attractive or young woman, refusing sexual advances of a boy or looking hotter than a girl that has just been dumped might be enough for you to create frustration... etc.

 

[Eric H]

dx713;
I think the moral of your stories is that if you are non-threatening, non-frustrating, and yet non-target, you can be much safer than one would assume.
You don't make them feel "bad guys" by showing fear, but at the same time you don't make them want to avenge or release frustration by insulting or pushing them, and there's nothing for them to earn by attacking you: I suppose you don't take visible luxury items to such patrols, and there's no fame to be gained by having punched an old woman.
The behaviour part can be learned, but some parts are out of reach for us. If I need my laptop elsewhere the next day, I can't leave work without my laptop in its bag.
If, like a friend of mine, you're a big muscular rugbyman, you can be the nicest non-confrontational man on earth out of the pitch, you're still going to have young and drunk punks wanting to prove they're badass by starting fights with you. If you're an attractive or young woman, refusing sexual advances of a boy or looking hotter than a girl that has just been dumped might be enough for you to create frustration... etc

I think you have summed up the issues well, we are going out for a couple of hours tonight when the England football game finishes, hopefully they will be good natured, win or loose.

 

[Eric H]

dx713;
If, like a friend of mine, you're a big muscular rugbyman, you can be the nicest non-confrontational man on earth out of the pitch, you're still going to have young and drunk punks wanting to prove they're badass by starting fights with you.

Something like this happened to us, it was around midnight, as we walked passed an alleyway, a couple od lads came towards us in an aggressive way, telling us to walk on. I said to my big mate that we should walk away, but he said, have you seen those other lads climbing over the garden fence.

When he pointed this out, I knew we had to stay and take whatever was coming, sure enough they pushed us around but we did not offer any kind of defence, after a few minutes they walked away. There was no pain involved, other than being pushed around.

These lads were known to others in our team as we heard names mentioned, it turned out one of the lads never got on with his dad, then his dad became ill and they started to make up, sadly his dad died and he became one angry lad. Often people who are angry have a reason to be angry, they also need help to deal with this anger.