Planet Fitness and transgenders in locker rooms

[credoconsolans]

The problem with that is when you have the same anatomy folks trolling for fresh meat amongst people who don't swing in that direction.

That problem is inevitable as homosexuals exist.

My point exactly, the problem already exists.

The solution for me when this became uncomfortable was to go in a dressing room and change.

I daresay, men are not used to having their actions in public restricted and would resent having to do this if made uncomfortable.

 

[arkirk]

It's never been a problem for me. Nobody is touching anybody that doesn't want to be touched I don't think.

There were a couple of creepers at a Bally's where I used to lift but other than a couple of too long looks and wink or two at "fresh meat" they weren't a bother. If the fish didn't bite they moved to new waters. Their behavior was less obnoxious than that to which most passably attractive women were subjected in common areas. Many good looking women were run off by the dogs within a month or two of joining the gym.

Some people are uncomfortable being naked in front of someone that regards them with reciprocated sexual interest.

This is always a separate problem. The whole thing is a matter of social agreement and the real reason for one being in any location in the first place. Locker rooms are not sex parlors. They are places where people get ready to exercise and sometimes to get cleaned up to leave. It is always possible in a single sex dressing area for a homosexual to feel overly amorous...same problems. It is a matter of misbehavior. You can never prohibit ALL situations where this type of misbehavior might occur. I think far too much is being made of this.

 

[Nexus]

In reality, trans people are fighting very hard for the simple and understandable right to be identified and classified as their perceived gender. They don't want to say 'eek! A penis', they want to say 'quit pigeon holing me into "man", I'm a woman, get over it'. If the changing room isn't a battleground in the fight to be accepted as their perceived gender, if it isn't yet another reminder that their body isn't what they feel it should be, then the issue goes entirely away.

They can't demand how others perceive them. They want to impose their warped view of themselves yet have the audacity to blame others for not thinking their way. They aren't women. They're guys dressing like women and they are the ones that need to get over how others view them.

Although I might know in my heart that I'm the president of the United States it doesn't mean I expect everyone to play hail to the chief when I enter the room.

 

[Bronzeage]

In reality, trans people are fighting very hard for the simple and understandable right to be identified and classified as their perceived gender. They don't want to say 'eek! A penis', they want to say 'quit pigeon holing me into "man", I'm a woman, get over it'. If the changing room isn't a battleground in the fight to be accepted as their perceived gender, if it isn't yet another reminder that their body isn't what they feel it should be, then the issue goes entirely away.

They can't demand how others perceive them. They want to impose their warped view of themselves yet have the audacity to blame others for not thinking their way. They aren't women. They're guys dressing like women and they are the ones that need to get over how others view them.

Although I might know in my heart that I'm the president of the United States it doesn't mean I expect everyone to play hail to the chief when I enter the room.

If he pulls his pants down and shows you a vulva, is he a man or a woman?

 

[repoman]

In this case it is a penis if i read the story right.

 

[arkirk]

In reality, trans people are fighting very hard for the simple and understandable right to be identified and classified as their perceived gender. They don't want to say 'eek! A penis', they want to say 'quit pigeon holing me into "man", I'm a woman, get over it'. If the changing room isn't a battleground in the fight to be accepted as their perceived gender, if it isn't yet another reminder that their body isn't what they feel it should be, then the issue goes entirely away.

They can't demand how others perceive them. They want to impose their warped view of themselves yet have the audacity to blame others for not thinking their way. They aren't women. They're guys dressing like women and they are the ones that need to get over how others view them.

Although I might know in my heart that I'm the president of the United States it doesn't mean I expect everyone to play hail to the chief when I enter the room.

They probably could care less how you perceive them as long as you don't molest or bash them. You don't have to look. You are free to change your clothes, shower, etc. You are putting too much stock into the notion that they are "perverts" who have no rights. You might as well get used to it because I suspect there will be more transexualism in the future. What you are objecting to is that the world is not all neatly as you would have it be. Why make yourself a problem for these people? I have known a number of them and they appear to be just trying to get along. Transexuals are usually not at all pushy. It is a difficult transition and while it is not for me, all you are doing is bringing unnecessary trouble to them. If you hate to perceive them, don't look. If you happen to accidentally see a transexual in your locker room, just look somewhere else. Chances are very good they are not running around all eyeballs drooling over you anyway.

 

[Bronzeage]

In this case it is a penis if i read the story right.

I'm just trying to establish some kind of standard which reduces the ambiguity. I know a few people whose clothed appearance leaves the matter in doubt.

As I said in an earlier post, there are a lot of Planet Fitness members who use my locker room and may or may not have a member. If I were placed under oath, I could not say with certainty if they had a penis, or not. For all I know they may all be transgender people waiting for their genital construction surgery.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It's never been a problem for me. Nobody is touching anybody that doesn't want to be touched I don't think.

There were a couple of creepers at a Bally's where I used to lift but other than a couple of too long looks and wink or two at "fresh meat" they weren't a bother. If the fish didn't bite they moved to new waters. Their behavior was less obnoxious than that to which most passably attractive women were subjected in common areas. Many good looking women were run off by the dogs within a month or two of joining the gym.

Some people are uncomfortable being naked in front of someone that regards them with reciprocated sexual interest.

Argh!! That was supposed to be unreciprocated!

- - - Updated - - -

They can't demand how others perceive them. They want to impose their warped view of themselves yet have the audacity to blame others for not thinking their way. They aren't women. They're guys dressing like women and they are the ones that need to get over how others view them.

Although I might know in my heart that I'm the president of the United States it doesn't mean I expect everyone to play hail to the chief when I enter the room.

If he pulls his pants down and shows you a vulva, is he a man or a woman?

That's pretty clear. What if he's got boobs (implants) and a dick, though?

 

[Bronzeage]

Some people are uncomfortable being naked in front of someone that regards them with reciprocated sexual interest.

Argh!! That was supposed to be unreciprocated!

- - - Updated - - -

They can't demand how others perceive them. They want to impose their warped view of themselves yet have the audacity to blame others for not thinking their way. They aren't women. They're guys dressing like women and they are the ones that need to get over how others view them.

Although I might know in my heart that I'm the president of the United States it doesn't mean I expect everyone to play hail to the chief when I enter the room.

If he pulls his pants down and shows you a vulva, is he a man or a woman?

That's pretty clear. What if he's got boobs (implants) and a dick, though?

That usually costs extra.

 

[thebeave]

In this case it is a penis if i read the story right.

I'm just trying to establish some kind of standard which reduces the ambiguity. I know a few people whose clothed appearance leaves the matter in doubt.

As I said in an earlier post, there are a lot of Planet Fitness members who use my locker room and may or may not have a member. If I were placed under oath, I could not say with certainty if they had a penis, or not. For all I know they may all be transgender people waiting for their genital construction surgery.

Well, you could always do what Crocoldile Dundee did, but personally, I wouldn't take the chance (especially these days!):

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Argh!! That was supposed to be unreciprocated!

- - - Updated - - -

They can't demand how others perceive them. They want to impose their warped view of themselves yet have the audacity to blame others for not thinking their way. They aren't women. They're guys dressing like women and they are the ones that need to get over how others view them.

Although I might know in my heart that I'm the president of the United States it doesn't mean I expect everyone to play hail to the chief when I enter the room.

If he pulls his pants down and shows you a vulva, is he a man or a woman?

That's pretty clear. What if he's got boobs (implants) and a dick, though?

That usually costs extra.

Boobs + dick = male to female transsexual who hasn't had the last surgery.

 

[Bronzeage]

Argh!! That was supposed to be unreciprocated!

- - - Updated - - -

They can't demand how others perceive them. They want to impose their warped view of themselves yet have the audacity to blame others for not thinking their way. They aren't women. They're guys dressing like women and they are the ones that need to get over how others view them.

Although I might know in my heart that I'm the president of the United States it doesn't mean I expect everyone to play hail to the chief when I enter the room.

If he pulls his pants down and shows you a vulva, is he a man or a woman?

That's pretty clear. What if he's got boobs (implants) and a dick, though?

That usually costs extra.

Boobs + dick = male to female transsexual who hasn't had the last surgery.

Yeah, I got that. Check out craigslist-casual encounters-t4m and one will find a lot of people who don't seem to be in a hurry to have the final surgery. Among my friends are going through this process, genital reassignment was the first surgery, not the last.

If it were my gym and my decision, members would be allowed to choose their dressing facilities and their behavior would determine whether they were allowed to stay. If there is someone who objects to being seen by a particular type of person, they are free to shower at home. I don't imagine this problem would come up often.

I attended high school with a boy who had a peculiar medical problem that made him grow breasts. We had 10th grade gym together. It was interesting for one day.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yeah, I got that. Check out craigslist-casual encounters-t4m and one will find a lot of people who don't seem to be in a hurry to have the final surgery. Among my friends are going through this process, genital reassignment was the first surgery, not the last.

I didn't even realize it had categories like that.

 

[Jarhyn]

In reality, trans people are fighting very hard for the simple and understandable right to be identified and classified as their perceived gender. They don't want to say 'eek! A penis', they want to say 'quit pigeon holing me into "man", I'm a woman, get over it'. If the changing room isn't a battleground in the fight to be accepted as their perceived gender, if it isn't yet another reminder that their body isn't what they feel it should be, then the issue goes entirely away.

They can't demand how others perceive them. They want to impose their warped view of themselves yet have the audacity to blame others for not thinking their way. They aren't women. They're guys dressing like women and they are the ones that need to get over how others view them.

Although I might know in my heart that I'm the president of the United States it doesn't mean I expect everyone to play hail to the chief when I enter the room.

The hate and vitriol pours off you like heat from a furnace! Your analogy fails. You are not the president. The boolean of Is President is easy to confirm. It is a delusion. A person's gender is not a matter of fact, gender is defined by a person's perception of who they are. It has nothing to do with the body they find themselves in. Genitals are not gender. Let's have a little exercise:

There is a person who was born with a vulva and vagina but testicles instead of ovaries. They grow up and they do not gain breasts, they get an Adams apple and facial hair. They are alright with this. They like who they are. In your world, is this a 'man' or 'woman'?

Second scenario, mostly the same, but they find out before puberty and decide to get the testicles removed and go on hormones, so that they grow up with breasts. They like who they are, but they have sex with girls and are very 'butch'. Man or woman?

Third scenario, same as the first but with a penis and ovaries. They grow up with breasts and no facial hair. They like dolls and cooking and wearing dresses. Is it a man or woman?

Fourth, they get the ovaries removed before puberty, and they grow up with facial hair and a love of football and cars. Is it a man or woman?

And now consider cases five and six: like cases two and four but without the abnormal gonad configuration. Are they men or women?

Genitals are not gender. Get over yourself.

 

[ronburgundy]

That's fine, but then all transgenders currently trying to switch locker/bathrooms would be in the "immature fuckbags" room, since it is their discomfort with their own or other people's genitalia that is causing them to demand use of room that doesn't match their biological sex.

This woman's reaction might be immature, but not as much as that of the transgenders who can't cope changing with people who share their same genitalia.

It the hypocrisy of those who are so supportive of the transgender but so attacking of those affected by their demands that is most glaring. I have more respect for the equal opportunity haters, than for the biased haters pretending that they are open-minded.

Actually, transexuals can just want to change with people who share the same genital configuration as they have. You have a lot to learn about transexuals.

You have a lot to learn about both transexuals and transgenders, which are not the same thing.
The transgender in the OP story was born and still is a biological male with male genitalia. Thus, your speculation on motive does not apply. The woman who complained would not have done so had the person had female genitalia. She would not have known it wasn't a woman by birth. She complained about "a man" being in the locker room, because there was a biological male in the women's locker room.

A lot of us are open minded and completely flexible.

No, you are not. You are a completely close-minded toward anyone who doesn't share your bias that only the gender-related preferences of LGBTs are valid, and any preference of others is bigotry. An actual open minded and flexible person would say, "Well, I understand that the biological male wants to be in the room labeled with her psychological gender identity, but I also understand that the biological women in that room might not want to shower with a biological male, no matter what clothes that person wears or how they view themselves."
That is the open-minded and non-bigoted perspective here and its the one I have argued for. "Immature fuckbags" is Jarhyn's close-minded attack of people who have a preference for the biological sex of the strangers they shower with. I was only foolishly trying to get him to have an ounce of intellectual consistency and apply the same standards to evaluating transgenders.

The purpose of locker rooms is to get dressed or undressed for gym...and to lock up your shit so nobody steals it.

Fine, but the woman who complained and the transgenders seeking to use a different locker room disagree with you. They both think that locker rooms and showers are a bigger deal than that and that it matters to them who the biological sex is of the people in there with them are. All I am saying is that an honest and open minded evaluation of the situation requires realizing that they both have preferences and there is no basis to presume the transgenders is rooted in any more reasonable or any less bigoted feelings.

 

[ronburgundy]

That's fine, but then all transgenders currently trying to switch locker/bathrooms would be in the "immature fuckbags" room, since it is their discomfort with their own or other people's genitalia that is causing them to demand use of room that doesn't match their biological sex.

This woman's reaction might be immature, but not as much as that of the transgenders who can't cope changing with people who share their same genitalia.

It the hypocrisy of those who are so supportive of the transgender but so attacking of those affected by their demands that is most glaring. I have more respect for the equal opportunity haters, than for the biased haters pretending that they are open-minded.

Man, you must be a paragon of transexualality to know what all the trans people want!

You are the one who made sweeping dismissive value judgments of all people who have preferences not to shower with someone of a different biological sex.
I just tried foolishly to get you to show an ounce of intellectual consistency

In reality, trans people are fighting very hard for the simple and understandable right to be identified and classified as their perceived gender.

Great, so their preference is to have people (including themselves) as classified by their self-perceived psychological gender, which is no less a sign of an "immature fuckwad" (your words) than other people who want to shower with their own biological sex more than with people who share their gender identity.

They don't want to say 'eek! A penis', they want to say 'quit pigeon holing me into "man", I'm a woman, get over it'.

IF they have a penis, then they are not biological females, no matter what they want to claim, and refusal to accept that, when it comes to showing and nudity, biology matters to some people just as much as their gender identity matters to them is selfish, close-minded, and hypocritical.

If the changing room isn't a battleground in the fight to be accepted as their perceived gender, if it isn't yet another reminder that their body isn't what they feel it should be, then the issue goes entirely away.

Bullshit. The labels on the rooms refer to biological sex, not gender roles. The labels cannot plausibly refer to both. It is highly likely that many transgenders want separate locker rooms, they just want them divided the way they prefer, by self-labeled gender role rather than biological sex. They and you myopically and hypocritically view their preferences as perfectly reasonable and valid while others' preferences are not. Changing in the men's locker room means that you have male genitalia, it does not define what person you are, say anything about your gender or lack thereof.

 

[Jarhyn]

Man, you must be a paragon of transexualality to know what all the trans people want!

You are the one who made sweeping dismissive value judgments of all people who have preferences not to shower with someone of a different biological sex.
I just tried foolishly to get you to show an ounce of intellectual consistency

In reality, trans people are fighting very hard for the simple and understandable right to be identified and classified as their perceived gender.

Great, so their preference is to have people (including themselves) as classified by their self-perceived psychological gender, which is no less a sign of an "immature fuckwad" (your words) than other people who want to shower with their own biological sex more than with people who share their gender identity.

They don't want to say 'eek! A penis', they want to say 'quit pigeon holing me into "man", I'm a woman, get over it'.

IF they have a penis, then they are not biological females, no matter what they want to claim, and refusal to accept that, when it comes to showing and nudity, biology matters to some people just as much as their gender identity matters to them is selfish, close-minded, and hypocritical.

If the changing room isn't a battleground in the fight to be accepted as their perceived gender, if it isn't yet another reminder that their body isn't what they feel it should be, then the issue goes entirely away.

Bullshit. The labels on the rooms refer to biological sex, not gender roles. The labels cannot plausibly refer to both. It is highly likely that many transgenders want separate locker rooms, they just want them divided the way they prefer, by self-labeled gender role rather than biological sex. They and you myopically and hypocritically view their preferences as perfectly reasonable and valid while others' preferences are not. Changing in the men's locker room means that you have male genitalia, it does not define what person you are, say anything about your gender or lack thereof.

You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Please, do go to my other post and generate answers for those scenarios.

"Biological sex" isn't as cut and dried as you seem to think it is, nor is it particularly important. Neither gender nor sex are binary, discrete, or even one dimensional. They are nominal at best. In reality each human has their own unique personal gender and an equally unique sexuality, and there are a myrad of different 'biological' sexes, even. That is itself likely unique as well. That you either didn't already know this or are unable to accept it is indicative that you should recuse yourself from the topic.

What do you call someone with a penis, breasts, who produces eggs, ovulates, and acts, speaks, and thinks like what you would call a 'man'?

If it is about 'biological sex', as you claim, then it very much is 'eek! A penis!'.

 

[fast]

http://kerryg.hubpages.com/hub/What-is-Your-Gender-Identity

An interesting link

 

[Bronzeage]

Yeah, I got that. Check out craigslist-casual encounters-t4m and one will find a lot of people who don't seem to be in a hurry to have the final surgery. Among my friends are going through this process, genital reassignment was the first surgery, not the last.

I didn't even realize it had categories like that.

There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

 

[Jarhyn]

I didn't even realize it had categories like that.

There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

I happen to be in a fairly fucked up scenario myself. In the best of all worlds I'd have a vag, and keep my testicles, maybe get them pushed back up into the body cavity where ovaries would normally go. But no doctor would ever do that for me, and certainly none with the skill to do the downstairs right.

I wonder what 'biological sex' that'd make me according to some here, what changing room I'd belong in. I think it is patently unfair that the only way to actually have gotten to be what I want is to have been born with a vagina or a with a very rare birth condition, and only done half of a transition. But then I wouldn't be who I am.