Police accountability

[AthenaAwakened]

John Oliver discusses the systems in place to investigate and hold police officers accountable for misconduct.

 

[Angry Floof]

Kids having to be specially trained to deal with police to give them the best chance of not getting killed by police... It is one fucked up society that doesn't expect police to be trained to not kill black kids.

John's final comments sum it up perfectly, as usual:

"Still, for many people, the argument that for police to be effective, they need to be given broad leeway to use force is very appealing, especially appealing for those of us who, for whatever reason, are fairly confident that that force won't be applied to them. But it is worth looking at the actual cost of that tradeoff because a lack of trust in police accountability leads to a lack of trust in police, and we now have reached the point where there are schools who host classes like this one to teach kids to safely interact with law enforcement.

"That is so fucking depressing, especially when you realize that is the only class where nobody will raise their hand and say, 'When are we ever going to use this?' And when you see something like that, it makes it hard to buy in when someone dismisses police misconduct issues like this. ['Bad apples' comment] Here's the thing about that. The phrase isn't 'It's just a few bad apples, don't worry about it.' The phrase is, 'A few bad apples spoil the barrel.' We currently have a system which is set up to ignore bad apples, destroy bad apples' records, persecute good apples for speaking up, and shuffle dangerous, emotionally unstable apples around to the point where children have to attend fucking apple classes. You cannot look at our current situation and claim that anybody likes them apples."

 

[coloradoatheist]

I will have to watch it, but I do think it's a good idea to have kids get instructions on how to handle interactions with police officers. Understand what they want, and how to handle it.

 

[dismal]

I will have to watch it, but I do think it's a good idea to have kids get instructions on how to handle interactions with police officers. Understand what they want, and how to handle it.

I got this in Driver's Ed. Stay in the car, hands visible, no sudden movements, follow instructions.

 

[Angry Floof]

I will have to watch it, but I do think it's a good idea to have kids get instructions on how to handle interactions with police officers. Understand what they want, and how to handle it.

White kids don't need that instruction. White people don't need training on how to not get killed by police. Sometimes white people are killed by police, but as a group, just being white isn't a consideration when dealing with police. Asshole people escalate things, asshole cops escalate things, but in general, white people don't have to worry too much about being pulled over for a tail light out or speeding. Other than the worry about their driving record or being able to pay the fine, white people have to have something else going on to really fear simply being pulled over.

That footage from the classroom is the most telling and disheartening part of the whole video. That black kids have to be specially trained to avoid being killed by specially trained officers with authority and weapons should give anyone pause, even those who don't understand what racism means.

You should watch the whole video, though. John offers a very rational case for policing the police, regardless of what you might think about specific cases argued on this board.

 

[Angry Floof]

I will have to watch it, but I do think it's a good idea to have kids get instructions on how to handle interactions with police officers. Understand what they want, and how to handle it.

This is extra curricular instruction that white kids don't need. No one should need anything more than what you listed there, and even if those suggestions are not adhered to, white people seldom have to truly fear the police.

 

[coloradoatheist]

I will have to watch it, but I do think it's a good idea to have kids get instructions on how to handle interactions with police officers. Understand what they want, and how to handle it.

White kids don't need that instruction. White people don't need training on how to not get killed by police. Sometimes white people are killed by police, but as a group, just being white isn't a consideration when dealing with police. Asshole people escalate things, asshole cops escalate things, but in general, white people don't have to worry too much about being pulled over for a tail light out or speeding. Other than the worry about their driving record or being able to pay the fine, white people have to have something else going on to really fear simply being pulled over.

That footage from the classroom is the most telling and disheartening part of the whole video. That black kids have to be specially trained to avoid being killed by specially trained officers with authority and weapons should give anyone pause, even those who don't understand what racism means.

You should watch the whole video, though. John offers a very rational case for policing the police, regardless of what you might think about specific cases argued on this board.

Of course whites do, they get pulled over for the things listed. speeding more than blacks but blacks get pulled over for those other offenses. Knowing how to handle that situation for everyone is important. As we saw with the Houston lady, getting out of your car and arguing right away with the cop doesn't win anything.

 

[laughing dog]

What a commentary on our society and the relationship with our police that children need to be instructed on how to behave with police to avoid being shot. It's as if we are admitting the police are not much better than strange dogs.

 

[coloradoatheist]

What a commentary on our society and the relationship with our police that children need to be instructed on how to behave with police to avoid being shot. It's as if we are admitting the police are not much better than strange dogs.

It deals with all interactions, not just being shot.

600 or so whites are killed a year from police shootings too. The argument is that the numbers are a lower percentage then they should be for population make up.

 

[Angry Floof]

White kids don't need that instruction. White people don't need training on how to not get killed by police. Sometimes white people are killed by police, but as a group, just being white isn't a consideration when dealing with police. Asshole people escalate things, asshole cops escalate things, but in general, white people don't have to worry too much about being pulled over for a tail light out or speeding. Other than the worry about their driving record or being able to pay the fine, white people have to have something else going on to really fear simply being pulled over.

That footage from the classroom is the most telling and disheartening part of the whole video. That black kids have to be specially trained to avoid being killed by specially trained officers with authority and weapons should give anyone pause, even those who don't understand what racism means.

You should watch the whole video, though. John offers a very rational case for policing the police, regardless of what you might think about specific cases argued on this board.

Of course whites do, they get pulled over for the things listed. speeding more than blacks but blacks get pulled over for those other offenses. Knowing how to handle that situation for everyone is important. As we saw with the Houston lady, getting out of your car and arguing right away with the cop doesn't win anything.

And it should never, ever get you killed. No, whites do not fear police as blacks do. We have no reason to fear cops the same way that blacks do. Blacks do have reason to fear police in ways that go beyond fearing that a cop will only do his job and inconvenience us and possibly be a rude jerk at worst. We whites do not fear getting killed when we get pulled over. Unless you're a known serial killer on the loose and you're white, you have no reason to fear a cop doing anything other than maybe being an asshole. We white people in general do not fear for our lives at the sight of a cop. Blacks do, and that fear is a natural response to police abuse and killing of black people. White people's general lack of fear of police is also a natural response to not being targeted by police as a group.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I will have to watch it, but I do think it's a good idea to have kids get instructions on how to handle interactions with police officers. Understand what they want, and how to handle it.

Wouldn't have helped Tamir Rice who was shot pretty much immediately by a man who was previously dismissed from another PD for being too immature and unstable to be an effective officer.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

I will have to watch it, but I do think it's a good idea to have kids get instructions on how to handle interactions with police officers. Understand what they want, and how to handle it.

Wouldn't have helped Tamir Rice who was shot pretty much immediately by a man who was previously dismissed from another PD for being too immature and unstable to be an effective officer.

But immature + unstable = worthy of death, duh.

 

[coloradoatheist]

I will have to watch it, but I do think it's a good idea to have kids get instructions on how to handle interactions with police officers. Understand what they want, and how to handle it.

Wouldn't have helped Tamir Rice who was shot pretty much immediately by a man who was previously dismissed from another PD for being too immature and unstable to be an effective officer.

My kids are aware that waiving one of their guns, whether or not it has a red tip has a very good chance of getting themselves killed for it. If your kid isn't responsible enough to know that they don't bring out those guns in areas besides air soft ranges or approved fields, then they shouldn't have them.

 

[ronburgundy]

Oliver is correct that there is a major problem with they police accountability system, but the current knee-jerk reactions to every cop shooting are making that much worse, not better.

There is no system that can work without the good apples wanting to actively help to expose and punish the bad apples. And that will not happen if every honest error that even the best apples will occasionally commit is presumed to be the act of a bad racist apple prior to any facts that clearly support this conclusion. IOW, the code of silence is only getting stronger and stronger due to the public reactions that treat every negative outcome for any black suspect (no matter how armed and criminal) as though the cop was just looking for any reason to kill a black person. The good cops will have incentive to obstruct efforts to punish bad cops, when they that they too are likely to get targeted at some point, whether it is justified or not.

Oliver is also correct that need to have classes about how to interact with cops is "fucking depressing" and a sign of a fucked up society. But he's wrong in thinking the need for such classes stems merely from police misconduct. The more fundamental need stems from the depressing fact that some kids live in areas where such a high % of their neighbors, including other kids, are engaged in crime and illegally armed with guns. This creates a situation where, even with the best plausible police-work, kids in that area are likely to be approached as plausible suspects of criminal activity with the cops reasonably thinking that the "kid"(which in most cases are 15-18) could have a gun. Studies have shown that there are are some predominantly black urban neighborhoods where over 20% of 13-18 year olds have carried an illegal gun in the past 30 days.

That alone makes such classes neccessary and useful, even in a world with no "bad apple" cops. Those kids need to be taught that, because of all the people (including kids) in their neighborhood committing crimes and illegally possessing guns, that means the cops are always around looking for those criminals. Thus they, no matter how innocent they are themselves, they are likely to be approached by cops who are looking for kids that are dangerous, armed, and engaged in crime. Thus, they should not do anything to make the cops think they are those kids (e.g., don't run, don't play with any gun no matter how fake, answer the cops questions, etc..).

The kids should be taught that there are some bad cops (just like all people) and that good cops can make mistakes when their is so much crime and so many dangerous people with guns around.
But they should also be taught the objective stats showing these kids how they are much more likely to be harmed by a fellow "kid" or adult in their neighborhood than by the police, how those people are 99% of the the people that get "harmed" by the police while the police are trying to protect innocent kids like them. Heck, it would be a good context for them to learn about statistics, probability, and how to use this information, but also how everyone's (including cop's) interpretations of complex situations are shaped by those probabilities.

The need for such classes is also to counteract the culture in their neighborhood, created largely by the criminals (who are often these kids' parents), that the cops are their enemies only trying to hurt them. This makes even innocent kids react to cops like they are guilty, because they were taught how to react by the guilty criminals in their neighborhoods and homes.

 

[laughing dog]

What a commentary on our society and the relationship with our police that children need to be instructed on how to behave with police to avoid being shot. It's as if we are admitting the police are not much better than strange dogs.

It deals with all interactions, not just being shot.

And you think that somehow ameliorates the pathetic state of the relationship of the police and society?

 

[coloradoatheist]

It deals with all interactions, not just being shot.

And you think that somehow ameliorates the pathetic state of the relationship of the police and society?

ron summed it up much better than I could.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Oliver is correct that there is a major problem with they police accountability system, but the current knee-jerk reactions to every cop shooting are making that much worse, not better.

If you're going to argue that you should also take into account the conservatives who consistently defend cops without questioning the cops' actions.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Oliver is correct that there is a major problem with they police accountability system, but the current knee-jerk reactions to every cop shooting are making that much worse, not better.

If you're going to argue that you should also take into account the conservatives who consistently defend cops without questioning the cops' actions.

The issue is that for situations that changed, there is no easy way to correct what was initially said. For example, "Shot driving while deaf" wasn't driving while deaf, it was "Shot while trying to run away from police officers" How do people apologize from wrong initial statements.

 

[TV and credit cards]

A good starting point would be for the union heads not to protect the jobs of these bad apples. Just as I do not advocate bad teachers teaching our children, I do not advocate bad cops policing society. Start there. See how that improves the overall picture. Have good police interacting respectfully and performing their duties professionally within their neighborhood. It might just snowball into something good.

As an digestif, the Cleveland Police Union endorses Donald Trump. Good job. Might have just kept your mouths shut. No one would have faulted you for that.

 

[laughing dog]

If you're going to argue that you should also take into account the conservatives who consistently defend cops without questioning the cops' actions.

The issue is that for situations that changed, there is no easy way to correct what was initially said. For example, "Shot driving while deaf" wasn't driving while deaf, it was "Shot while trying to run away from police officers" How do people apologize from wrong initial statements.

Given that there was no good reason to shoot him for running away, your example is unconvincing.