Poll: 1 in 5 blacks report 'unfair' dealings with police in last month

[ronburgundy]

deleted

 

[Trausti]

Did you not see the bold of your quote that I was commenting to? Here it is again:

I think a better use of time and ingenuity is to come up with why black people come to view the world in that manner.

The kneejerk here, is you.

In other words, why bother trying to understand the underlying reasons and using reasong when you can simply make assume the problem away?

No, I was offering a reason. Not my problem if it's not the reason you obviously want to hear.

 

[prideandfall]

Perhaps, as with all people, it's easier to blame a perceived outsider than admit that the problem is homegrown.

it's kind of ironic you should choose that exact statement, since i'd submit it's mostly true but not in the way you're meaning it.

take a population enslaved inside of a completely foreign culture, have their only engagement with the new culture to be forced into being farm equipment for 200 years, then spend another 100 years of technically not slaves but legally and socially being obsolete farm equipment, before finally being legally recognized as actually people only in the last 40 years.
and during this 350 year long period every single effort is made by the ruling class to marginalize and financially suppress the entire population at large, first by law and then social bias.

so yes, it is easier to blame and outsider ('the blacks') than it is to acknowledge that as a population demographic they were herded into this position by the people now disdainfully judging them for it.

Maybe that's why BLM protests seem only to erupt if the killer of a black person is non-black; when 300+ black people die in Chicago in six months at the hands of other black people, just shrugs.

do they "just shrug"?
or is it that violence within populations of poverty-stricken people is a very different issue with very different solutions to police straight up murdering black people on a fairly regular basis?
here's a hint in case you're still confused: civil protest can often lead to changes in governmental policy, but it rarely gets you anywhere with cultural change.

To improve relations with the cops, black neighborhoods should give the cops little to police.

oh well then that's so simple!
in order to give the cops little to police, black populations should start getting equal hiring opportunities at jobs that pay lower middle class wages and are within their travel distance at a ratio high enough that most every member of that population is reasonably well off and desperation-born crime is more of an outlier than the norm.

 

[RavenSky]

So what is an acceptable level of civilian feeling of being treated unfairly by the police regardless of the perceived reason?

And, instead of coming up with excuses on why black people cannot be trusted with their feelings of racism or why those feelings are misplaced or irrelevant, I think a better use of time and ingenuity is to come up with why black people come to view the world in that manner. Because, those perceptions (valid or invalid) do negatively affect police and community relations.

Perhaps, as with all people, it's easier to blame a perceived outsider than admit that the problem is homegrown. Maybe that's why BLM protests seem only to erupt if the killer of a black person is non-black police officer...

fify which now actually addresses LD's point and negates the rest of your original post

 

[laughing dog]

Gee, what a utterly meaningless question. The "reason" behind the feeling is everything and completely determines what the feeling reflects about the person, the cops, society, etc., and what it means to say it "acceptable".

Good for you. At this point you actually seem to be on track

So, your question that actively disregards the importance of the source of this feeling is as meaningless a question as asking "What price for object is acceptable, regardless of what the object is or how much the buyer values it?"

And now you go off track. Asking "why" also goes to the source of this feeling and to its importance.

The are not excuses,.....

You are looking for excuses to discredit the survey results instead of looking for the reasons that drive the results.

That is precisely what I am doing ...

You believe you are doing that but you are posting kneejerk excuses. I am not assuming anything about the statistical validity or reliability of the data.

If I were a police chief and a large segment of the civilian population I am charged to serve and protect feels they are being treated unfairly by the police in my command compared to the feelings of other segments, I would want to know more about what they mean by "unfairly" and why these situations are occurring. And anyone who simply said "Well we cannot trust those feelings because of where they live and they commit more crimes and blah blah blah" would be thanked for their input and then told to go talk to these people more in depth to find out what is going on. Because, it is possible that there could be something the police could be doing differently to improve the situation and outcomes for everyone.

 

[laughing dog]

No, I was offering a reason. Not my problem if it's not the reason you obviously want to hear.

Your problem is confusing the blaming the victim handwaving with a relevant reason or productive policy.

 

[Trausti]

it's kind of ironic you should choose that exact statement, since i'd submit it's mostly true but not in the way you're meaning it.

take a population enslaved inside of a completely foreign culture, have their only engagement with the new culture to be forced into being farm equipment for 200 years, then spend another 100 years of technically not slaves but legally and socially being obsolete farm equipment, before finally being legally recognized as actually people only in the last 40 years.
and during this 350 year long period every single effort is made by the ruling class to marginalize and financially suppress the entire population at large, first by law and then social bias.

so yes, it is easier to blame and outsider ('the blacks') than it is to acknowledge that as a population demographic they were herded into this position by the people now disdainfully judging them for it.

Ah, the bigotry of low expectations.

 

[Trausti]

No, I was offering a reason. Not my problem if it's not the reason you obviously want to hear.

Your problem is confusing the blaming the victim handwaving with a relevant reason or productive policy.

Well, call it what you want, but why not? If you find yourself in a hole, the first thing you do is stop digging. Your virtue signaling only serves to perpetuate the harm. The honest productive policy is for the black community to look inward for change. No government tax or spending or social engineering is going to do any good. Accusations of "victim blaming" just impedes that change.

And so for a long time I was puzzled to think that Jews were supposed to be rich when the only Jews I knew were poor, and that Negroes were supposed to be persecuted when it was the Negroes who were doing the only persecuting I knew about—and doing it, moreover, to me. During the early years of the war, when my older sister joined a left-wing youth organization, I remember my astonishment at hearing her passionately denounce my father for thinking that Jews were worse off than Negroes. To me, at the age of twelve, it seemed very clear that Negroes were better off than Jews—indeed, than all whites. A city boy’s world is contained within three or four square blocks, and in my world it was the whites, the Italians and Jews, who feared the Negroes, not the other way around. The Negroes were tougher than we were, more ruthless, and on the whole they were better athletes. What could it mean, then, to say that they were badly off and that we were more fortunate? Yet my sister’s opinions, like print, were sacred, and when she told me about exploitation and economic forces I believed her. I believed her, but I was still afraid of Negroes. And I still hated them with all my heart.

http://www.lukeford.net/Images/photos/out.pdf

 

[ksen]

it's kind of ironic you should choose that exact statement, since i'd submit it's mostly true but not in the way you're meaning it.

take a population enslaved inside of a completely foreign culture, have their only engagement with the new culture to be forced into being farm equipment for 200 years, then spend another 100 years of technically not slaves but legally and socially being obsolete farm equipment, before finally being legally recognized as actually people only in the last 40 years.
and during this 350 year long period every single effort is made by the ruling class to marginalize and financially suppress the entire population at large, first by law and then social bias.

so yes, it is easier to blame and outsider ('the blacks') than it is to acknowledge that as a population demographic they were herded into this position by the people now disdainfully judging them for it.

Ah, the bigotry of low expectations.

I actually had higher expectations of whites but, sadly, they were misplaced.

 

[ronburgundy]

So, your question that actively disregards the importance of the source of this feeling is as meaningless a question as asking "What price for object is acceptable, regardless of what the object is or how much the buyer values it?"

And now you go off track. Asking "why" also goes to the source of this feeling and to its importance.

Asking, "why do they report that feeling more often?" goes to the source and its importance. You dismissed all of the data I referred to that is logically relevant to answering that question. Instead, you asked the meaningless and completely unscientific question of "what is an acceptable level of civilian feeling of being treated unfairly by the police?", and you explicitly dismissed the importance of why they feel that why when you said "regardless of the percieved reason".

The are not excuses,.....

You are looking for excuses to discredit the survey results instead of looking for the reasons that drive the results.

I don't discredit the survey results, because the results themselves have zero rational implications about anything. What they measured tells us nothing other than that for any one of countless reasons blacks are more likely to presume they were treated unfairly by cops due to their race. I present only logically relevant information that is neccessary for those results to have any implications about anything. I am doing what all honest social scientist would do when analyzing, interpreting, reviewing, or publishing such data.
You blindly reach a conclusion about what they mean without considering any relevant facts. You are doing what the religiously faithly do when ignoring relevant facts and misinterpreting only the data that you feel you can sufficiently abuse for your ideological purposes.

That is precisely what I am doing ...

You believe you are doing that but you are posting kneejerk excuses.

I realize your scientific illiteracy make these seem like "kneejerk" responses, but they are the standard responses to all data in any honest evidence based inquiry.

I am not assuming anything about the statistical validity or reliability of the data.

You are completely ignoring the critical issue of the validity and reliability of the data, which completely determine what if anything the data mean and imply. You are demanding that we decide whether these data reflect something "acceptable" while disregarding all information relevant to what the data even reflect about anyone or anything. The only possibility is you want us to make this decision on the basis of your irrational faith.

If I were a police chief and a large segment of the civilian population I am charged to serve and protect feels they are being treated unfairly by the police in my command compared to the feelings of other segments, I would want to know more about what they mean by "unfairly" and why these situations are occurring. And anyone who simply said "Well we cannot trust those feelings because of where they live and they commit more crimes and blah blah blah" would be thanked for their input and then told to go talk to these people more in depth to find out what is going on.

IOW, you would ignore all logically relevant facts to understanding what those data mean, and only go collect additional data based on the softest least valid empirical methods you could find, so that you could have maximal freedom to inject your ideological biases. I never once implied that more data would not be useful. Unlike yourself, I don't ignore data, I use additional data to understand any particular piece of data. I have no problem asking people more detailed info about what they mean by "unfair". In fact, I wouldn't have been so incompetent as to have asked them the OP question in the first place without such additional info, because without it the OP data is useless.
But that additional info about their perceptions still is largely meaningless without all the other relevant information I have mentioned. Without it, you don't even know that blacks are more likely to feel unfairly treated by cops when they interact with cops, because you are not considering the base-rate statistics of how often they interact with cops. Rule #1 in statistics is that without the relevant baserate information, you have nothing.

 

[laughing dog]

Your problem is confusing the blaming the victim handwaving with a relevant reason or productive policy.

Well, call it what you want, but why not? If you find yourself in a hole, the first thing you do is stop digging. Your virtue signaling only serves to perpetuate the harm. The honest productive policy is for the black community to look inward for change. ...

Of course, it is always the victim's fault. There is zero possibility that their outlook is justified and that there is something that could be done differently not only by the black community but by the police.

 

[laughing dog]

Asking, "why do they report that feeling more often?" goes to the source and its importance. You dismissed all of the data I referred to that is logically relevant to answering that question.....

There is no logically relevant data to answering that question because it was not collected. We don't know what drove those responses because those people were not asked. Nor do we really know what the response mean precisely. You are conflate your guessing with actual relevant data-driven analysis, and bore readers with bloviated pointless attempts to justify that conflation.

 

[Trausti]

Well, call it what you want, but why not? If you find yourself in a hole, the first thing you do is stop digging. Your virtue signaling only serves to perpetuate the harm. The honest productive policy is for the black community to look inward for change. ...

Of course, it is always the victim's fault. There is zero possibility that their outlook is justified and that there is something that could be done differently not only by the black community but by the police.

Oy vey. It seems to you there is zero possibility that part of the problem lay within the black community. No outsider forces blacks to commit crime. Black people, as all people, have independent agency. I, unlike you apparently, do not deny them that independent agency.

 

[RavenSky]

Thread title:

Poll: 1 in 5 blacks report 'unfair' dealings with police in last month

Trausti: talk about anything and everything except police behavior

 

[Trausti]

Thread title:

Poll: 1 in 5 blacks report 'unfair' dealings with police in last month

Trausti: talk about anything and everything except police behavior

Ravensky: ignore why there is greater interaction with police in black neighborhoods

 

[laughing dog]

Of course, it is always the victim's fault. There is zero possibility that their outlook is justified and that there is something that could be done differently not only by the black community but by the police.

Oy vey. It seems to you there is zero possibility that part of the problem lay within the black community. No outsider forces blacks to commit crime.

Anyone with even 1st grade reading skills would see that your claim about what seems to me is utterly false (see the bolded part).

Black people, as all people, have independent agency.

So do police.

I, unlike you apparently, do not deny them that independent agency.

I admire your ability to be consistently illogical. There is nothing inconsistent with the notion of finding out what drives these results and "independent agency". Now, if I did try to apply your idiotic "rationale", I come to the idiotic conclusion that you deny the police that independent agency.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Thread title:

Poll: 1 in 5 blacks report 'unfair' dealings with police in last month

Trausti: talk about anything and everything except police behavior

There's not much to go on from the article to make any judgement either way. And even then we would have to hear the whole story from both sides and then make a judgement about whether or not the person had a case.

 

[EricK]

Living in England, I obviously have little idea about normal life in the US, but I find it hard to imagine that 1 in 5 blacks even had dealings with the police in the last 30 days, let alone unfair dealings. I even find it hard to believe the 3% 'unfair' figure for whites.

For most people in the UK, I am sure years go by before they have any dealings with police, and I'm sure the majority of these dealings are not 'unfair'. Let's say that 1 in 3 dealings are unfair (and it's probably much fewer than that), then the 3% 'unfair' dealings for white people would seem to imply that most white people have some dealing with the police every year. Can that be true?

 

[Trausti]

I admire your ability to be consistently illogical. There is nothing inconsistent with the notion of finding out what drives these results and "independent agency". Now, if I did try to apply your idiotic "rationale", I come to the idiotic conclusion that you deny the police that independent agency.

Independent agency - the decision to commit the crime which draws the police to the neighborhood. Thus, higher interaction. No crime, and the cops will stay in the doughnut shop.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Living in England, I obviously have little idea about normal life in the US, but I find it hard to imagine that 1 in 5 blacks even had dealings with the police in the last 30 days, let alone unfair dealings. I even find it hard to believe the 3% 'unfair' figure for whites.

For most people in the UK, I am sure years go by before they have any dealings with police, and I'm sure the majority of these dealings are not 'unfair'. Let's say that 1 in 3 dealings are unfair (and it's probably much fewer than that), then the 3% 'unfair' dealings for white people would seem to imply that most white people have some dealing with the police every year. Can that be true?

That was my question too, because it was 20% who said unfairly, and 80% fairly. So they would have had to ask people who had dealings with cops in the last 30 days.