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Poll: 1 in 5 blacks report 'unfair' dealings with police in last month

No. We are using crime statistics because the numbers should be compared against arrests, not against the population. When you correct for this factor the racial bias goes away.

Now, I'm sure there are some issues (I'm thinking especially of the targeting of drug money couriers which appears to have a considerable racial component) but they aren't systemic.

If police focus more on black neighbourhoods then they will arrest more black than they should leading to a higher arrest rate. Blacks and whites deal in and with drugs at the same rate, blacks are much more likely to be arrested and imprisoned than whites because there is a racial bias baked into the system.

You have to be pretty damn racist or stupid not to see this.

You'd have to be allergic to facts to call someone a racist or stupid on this.

One of the most consistent findings in the criminological literature is that African American males are arrested, convicted, and incarcerated at rates that far exceed those of any other racial or ethnic group. This racial disparity is frequently interpreted as evidence that the criminal justice system is racist and biased against African American males. Much of the existing literature purportedly supporting this interpretation, however, fails to estimate properly specified statistical models that control for a range of individual-level factors. The current study was designed to address this shortcoming by analyzing a sample of African American and White males drawn from the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health(Add Health). Analysis of these data revealed that African American males are significantly more likely to be arrested and incarcerated when compared to White males. This racial disparity, however, was completely accounted for after including covariates for self-reported lifetime violence and IQ. Implications of this study are discussed and avenues for future research are offered.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/256079484_No_evidence_of_racial_discrimination_in_criminal_justice_processing_Results_from_the_National_Longitudinal_Study_of_Adolescent_Health
 
You're simply assuming more scrutiny. Cops doing traffic go to where the offenses are being committed, they don't pick an area on race.
Assuming your claim is valid, it is not terribly relevant if these police officers choose which violaters they pull over and which ones they let slide.

I'm not finding the actual study but here's a report on it:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/21/n...in-speeding-in-new-jersey.html?pagewanted=all

Note how the justice department tried to squash it because it found a truth they didn't want known.

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If police focus more on black neighbourhoods then they will arrest more black than they should leading to a higher arrest rate. Blacks and whites deal in and with drugs at the same rate, blacks are much more likely to be arrested and imprisoned than whites because there is a racial bias baked into the system.

You have to be pretty damn racist or stupid not to see this.

You'd have to be allergic to facts to call someone a racist or stupid on this.

One of the most consistent findings in the criminological literature is that African American males are arrested, convicted, and incarcerated at rates that far exceed those of any other racial or ethnic group. This racial disparity is frequently interpreted as evidence that the criminal justice system is racist and biased against African American males. Much of the existing literature purportedly supporting this interpretation, however, fails to estimate properly specified statistical models that control for a range of individual-level factors. The current study was designed to address this shortcoming by analyzing a sample of African American and White males drawn from the National Longitudinal Study of Adolescent Health(Add Health). Analysis of these data revealed that African American males are significantly more likely to be arrested and incarcerated when compared to White males. This racial disparity, however, was completely accounted for after including covariates for self-reported lifetime violence and IQ. Implications of this study are discussed and avenues for future research are offered.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/256079484_No_evidence_of_racial_discrimination_in_criminal_justice_processing_Results_from_the_National_Longitudinal_Study_of_Adolescent_Health

No surprise at all--I've always said the problem is socioeconomic, not genetic.
 
Assuming your claim is valid, it is not terribly relevant if these police officers choose which violaters they pull over and which ones they let slide.

I'm not finding the actual study but here's a report on it:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/21/n...in-speeding-in-new-jersey.html?pagewanted=all

Note how the justice department tried to squash it because it found a truth they didn't want known.
Two observations. 1st, your post is literally unresponsive to my point. 2nd, for some obscure reason, you seem to ignore this part from the very article you cite:
There is evidence that racial profiling was common practice in the New Jersey State Police in the 1990's: internal police memos; testimony by troopers; and training materials that encouraged officers to stop and search minority drivers. Most striking are police records that show that black and Hispanic motorists, who make up 30 percent of the drivers on the turnpike, were subjected to more than 80 percent of the searches.
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No. We are using crime statistics because the numbers should be compared against arrests, not against the population. When you correct for this factor the racial bias goes away.

Now, I'm sure there are some issues (I'm thinking especially of the targeting of drug money couriers which appears to have a considerable racial component) but they aren't systemic.

If police focus more on black neighbourhoods then they will arrest more black than they should leading to a higher arrest rate. Blacks and whites deal in and with drugs at the same rate, blacks are much more likely to be arrested and imprisoned than whites because there is a racial bias baked into the system.
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First of all, actual arrests for drug dealing are a more reliable measure of rates of drug dealing than any of the data you are using to base your claim upon. Almost all claims about equal or greater drug use and dealing among whites compared to blacks is based upon self-report survey data like that from SAMHSA. These surveys only collect data from the population that is NOT in any kind of institution such as jail, prison, drug treatment center, etc.. In addition, the most serious drug users and dealers are the least likely to even be contacted let alone to agree to participate in any survey, let alone one about drugs and crime. IOW, those surveys mostly include more casual users and "dealers" of the sort that buy a bag of weed once a year and "sell" a bud to their friend. They ignore a huge % of the most serious users and dealers of the sort most likely to be arrested because of the frequency of their criminal activity (usually beyond drug crimes). Even when such surveys include some more full time users and dealers, the results reported completely ignore how they differ in ways that would get them arrested more often from the guy that only sells a couple times to close friends.

Secondly, where and how drugs are being used and dealt has a huge causal impact on likelihood of being arrested. If you use or deal out on the street in areas with high crime reports full of many other people using and dealing out on the streets, you are far more likely to get arrested than if you use or deal in a lower crime area inside your home, and mostly deal to acquaintances.
IOW, when you commit crimes out in the open and/or nearby to other people committing similar or more serious crimes that cops are responding to, you are far more likely to get arrested. All data on other non-drug crimes of the sort that fellow citizens are likely to report (theft, assault, murder, gunfire) show that most other crimes occur disproportionately in the same neighborhoods that black drug users and dealers are engaged in their illegal activity. Thus, without the cops being at all affected by the race of suspects, they would still be far more likely to arrest a black drug user or dealer than a white one simply by properly doing their job of responding to reported crimes and and obvious criminal activity during their patrols.

Third, the type of drug being used or dealt also matters. Heroin and crack tend to have far stronger ties to gang violence, prostitution rings, and other aspects of crime that draw the attention of law enforcement. Not to mention, users of these drugs (and "dealers" are often users) are more identifiable, erratic, and just plain acting stupid in ways that draw attention compared to occasional pot smokers or even cocaine users. Blacks are more likely to use and/or deal heroin or crack, whereas whites are more likely to use other illicit drugs such as nonmedical use of psychotherapeutic drugs and prescription pain killers which are typically not dealt or taken out on the streets by drug rings in the way that heroin and crack are.

Granted, blacks also get arrested for pot use/possession more often despite near equal use. But that relates to the fourth fact undermining your argument, which is that drug use and dealing crimes, especially for pot, are far more likely to be charged against people who are committing or in the vicinity of other criminal activity.
Cops are generally not out seeking people who have a joint on them. But when they are looking into other crimes or patrolling high crime areas they are very likely to encounter people with pot on them, some who are also charged with other crimes and some who either were not doing anything else or who were but no other charges have evidence to stick. IOW, if you have a bag of weed on you and your hanging out in a park in a high density city that has crack dealers and lots of violent crime reports, you are many times more likley to get nabbed for having pot, than if you have that same bag of weed in the quiet burbs where cops are not constantly on patrol because your neighbors are not constantly calling the cops to report the constant crime going on.

In sum, there is no valid data showing that drug dealing is equally prevalent among blacks and whites, and regardless, if the cops were in no way racist and merely doing their job responding to crime reported by citizens and putting greatest attention on the most serious crimes, they would be guaranteed to encounter and be required by our current drug laws to arrest a disproportionate % of black drug dealers and users compared to white dealers and users. IOW, none of the data you are referring to is evidence of racial bias by cops because it is exactly the data we would observe in a world without any racist cops. That doesn't mean there is not some degree of racism layered on top of all these other factors, it just means you need different and more direct evidence of it because racial disparities in arrests are neutral with regard to the hypothesis.
 
If an author is unclear, an intellectually honest critic points out the lack of clarity but does not insist on a definitive interpretation that is clearly contradicted by the actual words of the author.


Nothing I said was in any way contradicted by the words of the author. I just pointed out what his actual words mean to English speakers. He said one thing that means he thinks it is questionable whether we should have a police force at all, and then he said something later that means that much of it is not needed. The meaning of each of his statements is not unclear and is clearly what I said the meaning was. The only thing that is unclear is just how far is the author actually willing to go. The author is clear that he wants much less law enforcement in general, not merely limited to cutting areas most tied to abuse, which he explicitly says is nothing but a symptom and that improving quality officers, laws, and enforcement is not enough. He also says he finds sufficient basis to at least question the whole basis of the police force, but doesn't commit to whether he wants to take it that far. That is the rational and honest understanding of his argument. More importantly, the lack of clairty in the extremity of his position is irrelevant to my argument that even just eliminating "much of" the law enforcement that winds up putting blacks and cops into confrontation would have a net effect of many more black people dead, maimed, assaulted, raped, and robbed by other black people. IOW, the idiocy of their argument and its threat to black people is evident in even the most generous interpretation of his statements. Thus, I had no motive to and did not distort his actual words in any way. I merely pointed to two different statements that although differ in an irrelevant facet, share the same premise that the author thinks cops harm more black people than they help, so reduction in law enforcement would be a net benefit to blacks.



In the quote above he is suggesting that "much of it" is not needed. While that leaves the door open to some of it being needed, it doesn't logically imply that any of it is needed.
You are logically incorrect: if much of something is not needed that means some portion is not needed, therefore the rest is needed.

As usual, you fail basic logic. "Some A are not B" does not imply that some are B, nor is the inverse a valid inference. If I peak inside a box of marbles and only see 3 marbles and all of them are white, I can accurately say that "Some of the marbles are white." I know for sure some of the marbles are white. But no one can validly infer from my statement that some of the marbles are not white. They might be the might not be. Not only are you committing a logical fallacy, but you are ignoring basic standards of rhetoric and common custom in discourse. If a person thinks that"all X are bad" but doesn't think they can support it or thinks their audience will tune them out if that take that position, they will often try and get the audience to buy into a more modest proposal, like "much of X are bad." It is standard practice is social persuation, sometimes called "foot in the door" technique. Thus, it is both a logical fallacy and a violation of discourse convention to assume that the speaker thinks "some X are good" just because they said "some X are bad".
 
Nothing I said ...
That would have sufficiently accurate, saved you a lot of effort and embarrassment. It is one thing to say you disagree with an author. It is another to simultaneously claim that an author is unclear and that you KNOW what the author means. Especially when the "knowledge" is based on illogic and persistent misunderstanding of the words (like "undermine" and confusing " much" with "all") in the English language.
 
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Eugene O'Donnel, former NYPD police officer is on television discussing the reality of police violence towards black/brown civilians, saying "Is there any doubt about this? Is there any reasonable person that would look at this and doubt this?"

I think Eugene O'Donnel needs to come read the threads on this board. Of course, he might just remind me that he used the words "reasonable person".

If O'Donnel was at all reasonable himself, when he read this board he find your logically fallacious strawman efforts highly unreasonable.

There is no question that there has been police violence against black people, or that some instances of it have been unjustified.
Certainly nothing I have ever said here or elsewhere remotely implies that I doubt that. Only a grossly dishonest strawman fueled by ideological faith would equate my arguments to holding that position.
And I haven't seen posts by others (maybe 1, and its not Loren) which imply that is in doubt.

What I doubt, because I apply reason, is the following:

1. Is every instance decried as racist brutality by cops being accurately characterized as such?
2. What is the degree to which the degree to which the race of suspects in itself is directly altering the behavior of police behavior?
3. How widespread is this problem?
4. Do "data" such as that in the OP count as evidence of such racism or shed any light on the above questions?

There is reasonable doubt in relations to the claimed answers to all these questions, and only unreasonable people don't have doubts about such claims.
 
Nothing I said ...
That would have sufficiently accurate, saved you a lot of effort and embarrassment. It is one thing to say you disagree with an author. It is another to simultaneously claim that an author is unclear and that you KNOW what the author means. Especially when the "knowledge" is based on illogic and persistent misunderstanding of the words (like "undermine" and confusing " much" with "all") in the English language.

I am not confusing with "much" with "all". You are equating "some" with "not all", which is a logical fallacy as I succinctly explained and you are incapable of replying to. The whole reason that we have the expression "some, but not all" is because without specifying "not all" there is no logical implication from "some" to "not all".

I would only be embarrassed if I ever found myself agreeing with one of your posts, since I have yet to see one that didn't either present definitive falsehoods, deny basic empirical fact, or violate most of the basic principles of reasoned thought. Even when you accidentally stumble on a correct position, you hold and defend it based upon irrational grounds.
 
I am not confusing with "much" with "all"....
Sigh, you simultaneously claim the author is unclear and that you KNOW what the author means. That logical impossibility indicates that your ability to reason is generally suspect. Your reliance on misunderstanding basic english, projecting allegedly "common" mistakes onto others, and ad homs simply buttresses that conclusion. The very fact you are so emotional that your unilateral interpretation of an admitted unclear argument is disputed indicates a disturbing level of irrationality on your part.
I would only be embarrassed..
Whether or not you feel embarrassed is irrelevant to the issue that you are embarrassing yourself with your bombastic irrational bigoted ravings.
 
I'm not finding the actual study but here's a report on it:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/21/n...in-speeding-in-new-jersey.html?pagewanted=all

Note how the justice department tried to squash it because it found a truth they didn't want known.
Two observations. 1st, your post is literally unresponsive to my point. 2nd, for some obscure reason, you seem to ignore this part from the very article you cite:
There is evidence that racial profiling was common practice in the New Jersey State Police in the 1990's: internal police memos; testimony by troopers; and training materials that encouraged officers to stop and search minority drivers. Most striking are police records that show that black and Hispanic motorists, who make up 30 percent of the drivers on the turnpike, were subjected to more than 80 percent of the searches.
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You're missing the important part--the impartial study found the same discrepancy in speeding that the police stop ratio showed. In other words, it wasn't racism no matter how much the justice department would like to pretend it is.

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Secondly, where and how drugs are being used and dealt has a huge causal impact on likelihood of being arrested. If you use or deal out on the street in areas with high crime reports full of many other people using and dealing out on the streets, you are far more likely to get arrested than if you use or deal in a lower crime area inside your home, and mostly deal to acquaintances.
IOW, when you commit crimes out in the open and/or nearby to other people committing similar or more serious crimes that cops are responding to, you are far more likely to get arrested. All data on other non-drug crimes of the sort that fellow citizens are likely to report (theft, assault, murder, gunfire) show that most other crimes occur disproportionately in the same neighborhoods that black drug users and dealers are engaged in their illegal activity. Thus, without the cops being at all affected by the race of suspects, they would still be far more likely to arrest a black drug user or dealer than a white one simply by properly doing their job of responding to reported crimes and and obvious criminal activity during their patrols.

Exactly. This is an economic issue--poor drug users are a lot easier to bust than middle class and above. Furthermore, the cops will care more about poor drug users as they're much more likely to commit crimes to get the money for the drugs.
 
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