[POLL] Brexit poll

[DrZoidberg]

It's not a poll about your opinion on what is best for the UK. It's a poll on what you think is the outcome of the vote

That doesn't address my question. The question is 'Will Britain leave?' The answers are In and Out. In could mean 'Yes they will leave', as in "I'm in" or it could be 'In" as in they "stay in".

aha. In, as in In EU. Or Out as in leave the EU

 

[iolo]

Get out of the EU and then get proportional representation, riot on the streets if need be.

Why do you have to be a US puppet if out of the EU?

Because we have a parliament consisting of contemptible careerists, and the mugs don't vote on policies but 'personalities', apart from the economy's being too small to exist on its own.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Get out of the EU and then get proportional representation, riot on the streets if need be.

Why do you have to be a US puppet if out of the EU?

Because we have a parliament consisting of contemptible careerists, and the mugs don't vote on policies but 'personalities', apart from the economy's being too small to exist on its own.

Didn't you just now describe every parliament and every politician in every country? On the flip-side, who else but a cut-throat careerist would be willing to put up with the intrusive media scrutiny bullshit. It's an effective filter for keeping sensible people out.

I think the best assumption is to assume that politicians are crooks, and just keep them on a short leash.

 

[iolo]

Because we have a parliament consisting of contemptible careerists, and the mugs don't vote on policies but 'personalities', apart from the economy's being too small to exist on its own.

Didn't you just now describe every parliament and every politician in every country? On the flip-side, who else but a cut-throat careerist would be willing to put up with the intrusive media scrutiny bullshit. It's an effective filter for keeping sensible people out.

I think the best assumption is to assume that politicians are crooks, and just keep them on a short leash.

I don't think it has to be so. Within my own lifetime, here, it was better. What creates such a situation is the lack of any real choice between economic systems.

 

[SimpleDon]

I just talked to friends this last weekend who just moved back to the US from a two year assignment in England. He is military, in the UK to train the RAF how to fly drones and she is an engineer, working on London's massive wastewater tunneling and treatment program. They reported widely different views of this question among their English friends and colleagues. The military ones felt that the UK would exit the EU and the engineers felt hands down that the UK would stay in the EU.

 

[iolo]

I just talked to friends this last weekend who just moved back to the US from a two year assignment in England. He is military, in the UK to train the RAF how to fly drones and she is an engineer, working on London's massive wastewater tunneling and treatment program. They reported widely different views of this question among their English friends and colleagues. The military ones felt that the UK would exit the EU and the engineers felt hands down that the UK would stay in the EU.

The question is, if the English peasants vote for the nutters, what will the rest of us do? It will be an entirely weird situation, with the Westminster Parliament totally against this madness.

 

[SimpleDon]

Like Iceland, Norway, and Switzerland.



Like Iceland, Norway, and Switzerland. And you don't need a treaty to trade with a country.

They have trade agreements of course but they are doing very well.

For what it is worth, my opinion is that it won't make too much difference whether they stay in or not. The EU largely was the formalization of the reality in Europe, it didn't break new ground except for the euro which the UK didn't accept anyway.

I don't know if the EU will accept UK workers in their countries if the UK leaves the EU. In my time in Europe ending ten years ago there were a lot of UK citizens working in mainland Europe. But this is a small thing over all, except for the people involved.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Get out of the EU and then get proportional representation, riot on the streets if need be.

Why do you have to be a US puppet if out of the EU?

Because we have a parliament consisting of contemptible careerists, and the mugs don't vote on policies but 'personalities', apart from the economy's being too small to exist on its own.

The British economy does not just exist on its own but it also contributes to the EU. As for the US puppet, Bush did an amazing ventriloquist act using Blair during the Iraq war. Whether the UK was in or out of Europe the puppetry would have still been the same. The UK will continue to be an ally of the USA but public opinion is somewhat against future involvements in too many costly wars.

 

[whichphilosophy]

I just talked to friends this last weekend who just moved back to the US from a two year assignment in England. He is military, in the UK to train the RAF how to fly drones and she is an engineer, working on London's massive wastewater tunneling and treatment program. They reported widely different views of this question among their English friends and colleagues. The military ones felt that the UK would exit the EU and the engineers felt hands down that the UK would stay in the EU.

I think the vote will be to stay with the flock. The Euro-sheeple think staying in Europe is not that ba-a-a-ahd.

 

[SimpleDon]

I just talked to friends this last weekend who just moved back to the US from a two year assignment in England. He is military, in the UK to train the RAF how to fly drones and she is an engineer, working on London's massive wastewater tunneling and treatment program. They reported widely different views of this question among their English friends and colleagues. The military ones felt that the UK would exit the EU and the engineers felt hands down that the UK would stay in the EU.

The question is, if the English peasants vote for the nutters, what will the rest of us do? It will be an entirely weird situation, with the Westminster Parliament totally against this madness.

My attention to the news in the UK is focused mainly on English football, not politics. I can tell you what Arsenal's manager's opinion is, stay in, but I don't think that Arsene Wenger's opinion carries much weight in the UK.

It does seem to be a nativist, reactionary idea rather than a practical one. Or perhaps calling it a crusade is more accurate.

But I do have (Northern) Irish friends working in Germany and of course, they consider it to be nuts as do my German friends, neither is surprising of course. But it was interesting to me that the RAF officers were so adamant, in private, in support of the exit.

 

[whichphilosophy]

The question is, if the English peasants vote for the nutters, what will the rest of us do? It will be an entirely weird situation, with the Westminster Parliament totally against this madness.

My attention to the news in the UK is focused mainly on English football, not politics. I can tell you what Arsenal's manager's opinion is, stay in, but I don't think that Arsene Wenger's opinion carries much weight in the UK.

It does seem to be a nativist, reactionary idea rather than a practical one. Or perhaps calling it a crusade is more accurate.

But I do have (Northern) Irish friends working in Germany and of course, they consider it to be nuts as do my German friends, neither is surprising of course. But it was interesting to me that the RAF officers were so adamant, in private, in support of the exit.

There will still be people working in each others countries. That will change little. Football of course will not be affected as it supplies a public demand.

 

[bilby]

My attention to the news in the UK is focused mainly on English football, not politics. I can tell you what Arsenal's manager's opinion is, stay in, but I don't think that Arsene Wenger's opinion carries much weight in the UK.

It does seem to be a nativist, reactionary idea rather than a practical one. Or perhaps calling it a crusade is more accurate.

But I do have (Northern) Irish friends working in Germany and of course, they consider it to be nuts as do my German friends, neither is surprising of course. But it was interesting to me that the RAF officers were so adamant, in private, in support of the exit.

There will still be people working in each others countries. That will change little. Football of course will not be affected as it supplies a public demand.

If the UK leaves the EU, then it is far from clear what will happen to the right of free movement. The EU mandates that this right be maintained by non-members that maintain a free trade relationship with the EU - it's a package deal.

If the UK wants to make ANY change to migration from the EU post Brexit (and that desire seems to be the driving force behind the 'out' campaign), then there could be very significant impacts on UK citizens currently working in Europe - at the very least, those people will need some kind of additional work permits, and there is no guarantee that they would be granted.

As for football, prior to the Maastricht treaty, the Football League had strict limits on the number of foreign players permitted at English clubs; post Maastricht, 'foreign' was re-defined to mean 'non-EU'. If Brexit leads to this rule reverting to its previous meaning (and there is little reason to assume that it would not), then most Premier League teams will need to replace a significant fraction of their squads with UK citizens. The disruption would be enormous.

 

[whichphilosophy]

There will still be people working in each others countries. That will change little. Football of course will not be affected as it supplies a public demand.

If the UK leaves the EU, then it is far from clear what will happen to the right of free movement. The EU mandates that this right be maintained by non-members that maintain a free trade relationship with the EU - it's a package deal.

If the UK wants to make ANY change to migration from the EU post Brexit (and that desire seems to be the driving force behind the 'out' campaign), then there could be very significant impacts on UK citizens currently working in Europe - at the very least, those people will need some kind of additional work permits, and there is no guarantee that they would be granted.

As for football, prior to the Maastricht treaty, the Football League had strict limits on the number of foreign players permitted at English clubs; post Maastricht, 'foreign' was re-defined to mean 'non-EU'. If Brexit leads to this rule reverting to its previous meaning (and there is little reason to assume that it would not), then most Premier League teams will need to replace a significant fraction of their squads with UK citizens. The disruption would be enormous.

These changes won't happen overnight because of the time any changes will take. Perhaps quite a few years will be required.

 

[bilby]

If the UK leaves the EU, then it is far from clear what will happen to the right of free movement. The EU mandates that this right be maintained by non-members that maintain a free trade relationship with the EU - it's a package deal.

If the UK wants to make ANY change to migration from the EU post Brexit (and that desire seems to be the driving force behind the 'out' campaign), then there could be very significant impacts on UK citizens currently working in Europe - at the very least, those people will need some kind of additional work permits, and there is no guarantee that they would be granted.

As for football, prior to the Maastricht treaty, the Football League had strict limits on the number of foreign players permitted at English clubs; post Maastricht, 'foreign' was re-defined to mean 'non-EU'. If Brexit leads to this rule reverting to its previous meaning (and there is little reason to assume that it would not), then most Premier League teams will need to replace a significant fraction of their squads with UK citizens. The disruption would be enormous.

These changes won't happen overnight because of the time any changes will take. Perhaps quite a few years will be required.

Two years.

Two years is the time allowed under the Treaty of Lisbon. After that, all movement and employment privileges for the citizens of former members are void - if a new deal hasn't been completed by then, tough shit.

The Treaty of Lisbon introduced an exit clause for members who wish to withdraw from the Union. Under TEU Article 50, a Member State would notify the European Council of its intention to exit the Union and a withdrawal agreement would be negotiated between the Union and that State. The treaties of the European Union would cease to be applicable to that State from the date of the agreement or, failing that, within two years of the notification unless the State and the Council both agree to extend this period.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_Union

 

[whichphilosophy]

These changes won't happen overnight because of the time any changes will take. Perhaps quite a few years will be required.

Two years.

Two years is the time allowed under the Treaty of Lisbon. After that, all movement and employment privileges for the citizens of former members are void - if a new deal hasn't been completed by then, tough shit.

The Treaty of Lisbon introduced an exit clause for members who wish to withdraw from the Union. Under TEU Article 50, a Member State would notify the European Council of its intention to exit the Union and a withdrawal agreement would be negotiated between the Union and that State. The treaties of the European Union would cease to be applicable to that State from the date of the agreement or, failing that, within two years of the notification unless the State and the Council both agree to extend this period.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_Union

I think it would take longer. Europeans are also practical and logical so I don't think too much stupidity will take place if points from both sides are not fully finalized.
A quicker interim method would be to allow those who worked before the BREXIT to continue as before or perhaps get extended and those who joined after to meet more formalities.

 

[bilby]

Two years.

Two years is the time allowed under the Treaty of Lisbon. After that, all movement and employment privileges for the citizens of former members are void - if a new deal hasn't been completed by then, tough shit.

The Treaty of Lisbon introduced an exit clause for members who wish to withdraw from the Union. Under TEU Article 50, a Member State would notify the European Council of its intention to exit the Union and a withdrawal agreement would be negotiated between the Union and that State. The treaties of the European Union would cease to be applicable to that State from the date of the agreement or, failing that, within two years of the notification unless the State and the Council both agree to extend this period.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_Union

I think it would take longer. Europeans are also practical and logical so I don't think too much stupidity will take place if points from both sides are not fully finalized.
A quicker interim method would be to allow those who worked before the BREXIT to continue as before or perhaps get extended and those who joined after to meet more formalities.

What you think doesn't change the law.

I think it would take longer too - but the law is clear; if it takes more than two years, then all existing treaty arrangements between the departing member state and the EU are void.

That's how long the Treaty of Lisbon says they have to reach an agreement; and if no agreement is reached by then, tough shit.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Two years.

Two years is the time allowed under the Treaty of Lisbon. After that, all movement and employment privileges for the citizens of former members are void - if a new deal hasn't been completed by then, tough shit.

The Treaty of Lisbon introduced an exit clause for members who wish to withdraw from the Union. Under TEU Article 50, a Member State would notify the European Council of its intention to exit the Union and a withdrawal agreement would be negotiated between the Union and that State. The treaties of the European Union would cease to be applicable to that State from the date of the agreement or, failing that, within two years of the notification unless the State and the Council both agree to extend this period.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_Union

I think it would take longer. Europeans are also practical and logical so I don't think too much stupidity will take place if points from both sides are not fully finalized.
A quicker interim method would be to allow those who worked before the BREXIT to continue as before or perhaps get extended and those who joined after to meet more formalities.

What you think doesn't change the law.

I think it would take longer too - but the law is clear; if it takes more than two years, then all existing treaty arrangements between the departing member state and the EU are void.

That's how long the Treaty of Lisbon says they have to reach an agreement; and if no agreement is reached by then, tough shit.

If it takes longer on both sides of the Atlantic, common sense not bureaucracy (eurocracy) dictates that the parties can give each other an extension where needed. In any business transactions extension in terms of time, are very common.

 

[repoman]

Ok, I don't have the knowledge background for this, but can someone please make a new thread on how the EU became what it is and if was a planned out bait and switch?

Thanks

 

[bilby]

Two years.

Two years is the time allowed under the Treaty of Lisbon. After that, all movement and employment privileges for the citizens of former members are void - if a new deal hasn't been completed by then, tough shit.

The Treaty of Lisbon introduced an exit clause for members who wish to withdraw from the Union. Under TEU Article 50, a Member State would notify the European Council of its intention to exit the Union and a withdrawal agreement would be negotiated between the Union and that State. The treaties of the European Union would cease to be applicable to that State from the date of the agreement or, failing that, within two years of the notification unless the State and the Council both agree to extend this period.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_Union

I think it would take longer. Europeans are also practical and logical so I don't think too much stupidity will take place if points from both sides are not fully finalized.
A quicker interim method would be to allow those who worked before the BREXIT to continue as before or perhaps get extended and those who joined after to meet more formalities.

What you think doesn't change the law.

I think it would take longer too - but the law is clear; if it takes more than two years, then all existing treaty arrangements between the departing member state and the EU are void.

That's how long the Treaty of Lisbon says they have to reach an agreement; and if no agreement is reached by then, tough shit.

If it takes longer on both sides of the Atlantic, common sense not bureaucracy (eurocracy) dictates that the parties can give each other an extension where needed. In any business transactions extension in terms of time, are very common.

I don't know what planet you come from, but on this planet, the law is not suspended in favour of 'common sense' - and that's a good thing, because 'common sense' usually means either an idea that is common, but not sensible; or an idea that is sensible, but not common.

The Lisbon Treaty is the relevant law. What you, or anyone else, might think is a better or more 'common sense' idea, will not be allowed to overrule that law.

The Lisbon Treaty does allow for an extension of the two year time limit, but only with the agreement of both parties - and there seems to be little incentive for the EU to grant an extension to an anti-EU United Kingdom.

I would also like to point out that on this planet, the EU and UK are both on the same side of the Atlantic.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Two years.

Two years is the time allowed under the Treaty of Lisbon. After that, all movement and employment privileges for the citizens of former members are void - if a new deal hasn't been completed by then, tough shit.

The Treaty of Lisbon introduced an exit clause for members who wish to withdraw from the Union. Under TEU Article 50, a Member State would notify the European Council of its intention to exit the Union and a withdrawal agreement would be negotiated between the Union and that State. The treaties of the European Union would cease to be applicable to that State from the date of the agreement or, failing that, within two years of the notification unless the State and the Council both agree to extend this period.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_from_the_European_Union

I think it would take longer. Europeans are also practical and logical so I don't think too much stupidity will take place if points from both sides are not fully finalized.
A quicker interim method would be to allow those who worked before the BREXIT to continue as before or perhaps get extended and those who joined after to meet more formalities.

What you think doesn't change the law.

I think it would take longer too - but the law is clear; if it takes more than two years, then all existing treaty arrangements between the departing member state and the EU are void.

That's how long the Treaty of Lisbon says they have to reach an agreement; and if no agreement is reached by then, tough shit.

If it takes longer on both sides of the Atlantic, common sense not bureaucracy (eurocracy) dictates that the parties can give each other an extension where needed. In any business transactions extension in terms of time, are very common.

I don't know what planet you come from, but on this planet, the law is not suspended in favour of 'common sense' - and that's a good thing, because 'common sense' usually means either an idea that is common, but not sensible; or an idea that is sensible, but not common.

The Lisbon Treaty is the relevant law. What you, or anyone else, might think is a better or more 'common sense' idea, will not be allowed to overrule that law.

I would also like to point out that on this planet, the EU and UK are both on the same side of the Atlantic.

I work with contract including government contracts and that is how people discuss issues during the execution of agreements. Time overruns are frequent and usually negotiated.

If Britain kicks out 1 million Europeans and Europe kicks out 1 million Britons instead of discussing the changeover for a few months, that would be somewhat asinine.