POW in Vietnam who were Christians were harder to brainwash

[NobleSavage]

I just read this on a fundy forum. I'd like to respond, but there most likely is no evidence to prove it one way or another. I figure this is just some myth that got made up.
There has to be some kind of comeback...I'm guessing the Muslims who were/are detained and tortured in Gitmo have not converted to Christianity or Capitalism.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I just read this on a fundy forum. I'd like to respond, but there most likely is no evidence to prove it one way or another. I figure this is just some myth that got made up.
There has to be some kind of comeback...

Obviously, you can't brainwash anyone until you first BREAK their in-place brainwashing...

 

[Underseer]

I just read this on a fundy forum. I'd like to respond, but there most likely is no evidence to prove it one way or another. I figure this is just some myth that got made up.
There has to be some kind of comeback...

Obviously, you can't brainwash anyone until you first BREAK their in-place brainwashing...

Exactly my thought, but the first response should be "How do you know that?" They won't check their sources, so you kind of have to.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Obviously, you can't brainwash anyone until you first BREAK their in-place brainwashing...

Exactly my thought, but the first response should be "How do you know that?" They won't check their sources, so you kind of have to.

True.
I mean, how would you even set up a formal experiment to prove this, much less acquire dependable anecdotal evidence?

Would you sort the subjects by sect or status? Would you compare Catholics to Baptists, say or would you want to compare Catholics to Lapsed Catholics? Mormons who did their missionary tour vs. those who didn't? Baptists under torture in solitary vs. Baptists being tortured where other Baptists can see them....?
Would your control group be Jews, atheists, junkies? Peace corps? Socialists?

 

[doubtingt]

I'm pretty sure that there are studies out there showing that the more strongly religious a person is, the more generally suggestible they are (i.e., their perceptions and beliefs can be more easily manipulated by others). As has already been implied, if you've already been manipulated to believe that God is all things good, then you'll be less influenced by people whom you think are godless commies. Yet, you'd still be more easily brainwashed to believe things in general, so long as they don't contradict the brainwashed beliefs you already hold.

BTW, there is also the issue of what these fundy's mean by "brainwashed" in Vietnam. Are they referring to soldiers who became disloyal to the US after deciding the war was unjust? IF so, then all we are talking about is that Christians are more likely to have blind loyalty to authority and not even consider reasonable counter arguments.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

It may have something to do with Christians thinking that God is watching them. When police try to get criminals to flip on each other, they isolate them because it's far less likely that someone's going to betray the group when they're buddies are there with them. If they believe that their buddy God is in the room with them, they're less likely to flip.

 

[Keith&Co.]

If they believe that their buddy God is in the room with them, they're less likely to flip.

Unless they're of the religious strain that flips, anyway, sure that they're such good Christains that their god'll forgive them.
See pretty much the entire posting history of Self-Mutation...

 

[Sarpedon]

I've never heard this one before. Strange it would only come out now, forty years after the fact. Has it been around without me knowing it?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

If they believe that their buddy God is in the room with them, they're less likely to flip.

Unless they're of the religious strain that flips, anyway, sure that they're such good Christains that their god'll forgive them.
See pretty much the entire posting history of Self-Mutation...

Not the point. If they're in the room with other members of the group, they're less likely to turn on the group. I don't think that would be much different if the member of the group that's in the room with them is a fictional character.

 

[Underseer]

We still haven't established if the claim is actually true or not.

- - - Updated - - -

Wait.

There was a study recently that showed that theists can endure more pain.

Is it possible they extrapolated from there to torture?

 

[Sarpedon]

Maybe atheists are smart enough to play along.

 

[Underseer]

Ugh. I saw information about that pain study, but my Google-fu is weak and I couldn't find a link to the study?

Can someone dig up that link and a link to the study about susceptibility to coercion?

Noblesavage, let me suggest a response. Cite both studies (preferably with links) and show that they both suggest different possible answers to the question of whether Christians can better resist torture, but that neither gives us sufficient ground to extrapolate to the particular case of torture.

It would be wildly unethical to perform a proper scientific study to see if theists/Christians are better able to withstand torture, so the only recourse would be case studies of past incidents of torture. Unfortunately, as depressingly common as torture is, there probably isn't enough available data for strong conclusions based on case studies.

 

[Bronzeage]

We still haven't established if the claim is actually true or not.

- - - Updated - - -

Wait.

There was a study recently that showed that theists can endure more pain.

Is it possible they extrapolated from there to torture?

It would really depend upon what we call "brainwashing." There once was a worry that a person could be put under severe stress which would allow an evil person to implant false memories which would later be accepted as fact. This sort of thing is in same category as stage hypnotists which can make a person cluck like a chicken when they hear a bell.

Since I haven't seen any more of this than is in this thread, I'll speculate that someone has claimed that Christian POW's resisted interrogation and refused to cooperate for longer than less devout POW's. The Christian church has a long tradition of martyrs who suffered torture and murder and remained faithful till the end. Beyond that, prayer is a powerful distraction while your arms are being pulled out of their sockets.


Whether this is true or not, it's not difficult to imagine such a thing, even if it is difficult for an atheist to imagine a situation where a devout person would have an advantage.

 

[Underseer]

Maybe atheists are smart enough to play along.

You should know better than to make a claim like that without citing something on this forum.

 

[Underseer]

We still haven't established if the claim is actually true or not.

- - - Updated - - -

Wait.

There was a study recently that showed that theists can endure more pain.

Is it possible they extrapolated from there to torture?

It would really depend upon what we call "brainwashing." There once was a worry that a person could be put under severe stress which would allow an evil person to implant false memories which would later be accepted as fact. This sort of thing is in same category as stage hypnotists which can make a person cluck like a chicken when they hear a bell.

Since I haven't seen any more of this than is in this thread, I'll speculate that someone has claimed that Christian POW's resisted interrogation and refused to cooperate for longer than less devout POW's. The Christian church has a long tradition of martyrs who suffered torture and murder and remained faithful till the end. Beyond that, prayer is a powerful distraction while your arms are being pulled out of their sockets.


Whether this is true or not, it's not difficult to imagine such a thing, even if it is difficult for an atheist to imagine a situation where a devout person would have an advantage.

No, the study I saw had nothing to do with coercion. They simply subjected people to pain and measured who could handle it the longest before crying "Uncle!"

According to the study, Christians could endure more pain, but that does not justify going from "can endure more pain" to "can better resist the coercion of torture" since we have other studies showing that Christians are more susceptible to coercion (although no one actually cited such a study, so take that with a grain of salt).

 

[Bronzeage]

It would really depend upon what we call "brainwashing." There once was a worry that a person could be put under severe stress which would allow an evil person to implant false memories which would later be accepted as fact. This sort of thing is in same category as stage hypnotists which can make a person cluck like a chicken when they hear a bell.

Since I haven't seen any more of this than is in this thread, I'll speculate that someone has claimed that Christian POW's resisted interrogation and refused to cooperate for longer than less devout POW's. The Christian church has a long tradition of martyrs who suffered torture and murder and remained faithful till the end. Beyond that, prayer is a powerful distraction while your arms are being pulled out of their sockets.


Whether this is true or not, it's not difficult to imagine such a thing, even if it is difficult for an atheist to imagine a situation where a devout person would have an advantage.

No, the study I saw had nothing to do with coercion. They simply subjected people to pain and measured who could handle it the longest before crying "Uncle!"

According to the study, Christians could endure more pain, but that does not justify going from "can endure more pain" to "can better resist the coercion of torture" since we have other studies showing that Christians are more susceptible to coercion (although no one actually cited such a study, so take that with a grain of salt).

I haven't seen any study about any religious group being less susceptible to coercion, so please don't use a plural pronoun.

However, if a Christian can endure more pain, just for a psychology study, imagine their ability to endure pain when there was actually a reason to endure it.

 

[skepticalbip]

Maybe ability to endure pain is just a religious thing in general, not just a Christian thing. Yogis seem to do it just for fun and Buddhist monks have doused themselves with gasoline, ignite it, then sit stoically until death as political protest.

 

[Underseer]

No, the study I saw had nothing to do with coercion. They simply subjected people to pain and measured who could handle it the longest before crying "Uncle!"

According to the study, Christians could endure more pain, but that does not justify going from "can endure more pain" to "can better resist the coercion of torture" since we have other studies showing that Christians are more susceptible to coercion (although no one actually cited such a study, so take that with a grain of salt).

I haven't seen any study about any religious group being less susceptible to coercion, so please don't use a plural pronoun.

However, if a Christian can endure more pain, just for a psychology study, imagine their ability to endure pain when there was actually a reason to endure it.

Someone else in this thread claimed that Christians are more susceptible to coercion. I have no idea what the nature of the claim is.

The study I referenced was from something I saw on TV, or a web link. I don't even recall which, so feel free to take that with a grain of salt.

 

[dystopian]

No, the study I saw had nothing to do with coercion. They simply subjected people to pain and measured who could handle it the longest before crying "Uncle!"

I'm going to have to call bullshit on any study that purports to show that. What kind of sample size were they working with? How diverse was the sample set? Should the fact that I, as a lifelong atheist have repeatedly amazed doctors with my apparently freakish ability to withstand pain, suggest that perhaps it just depends on the person and not whatever faith they have or do not have? I really seriously doubt they had a large enough number of test subjects to conclude there is a trend among Christians to endure more pain as compared to atheists (even ignoring the fact that I'm sure there's ethics rules that prevent them from subjecting subjects to truly high amounts of pain, and if it's just minor electric shocks they're subjecting people too I don't think that makes for an experiment one can draw any real conclusions from).

 

[Sarpedon]

What incentive did they have to resist the pain in this study?