Probably one of the scariest sentences I've read by a free marketeer

[KeepTalking]

They really believe there is nothing that might make labor different than a loaf of bread or a gallon of milk and their policy prescriptions show it.

:shakeshead:

He's right. Welfare is the job of government, not the business sector.

Exactly how is paying someone to perform labor welfare? It's just the opposite... wait did I miss opposite day again?

 

[ksen]

What about free doughnuts in the break room?

Jiggerty-Twattery. Donuts are not monetization!

APPLESAUCE!!!

 

[Axulus]

At the end of the day, labor is a good, no different than a loaf of bread or a gallon of milk.

Yes, this is the nightmare of capitalism.

The human being is thought of as a commodity with a price.

Of course first humans are reduced to this.

Humans do not have market value. They are priceless incredibly rare creatures with a short lifespan, needs and desires.

They are merely forced to rent their labor in abusive destructive systems of control that rob many things so a tiny few can live like kings.

Capitalism is one baby step from slavery. It has many of the same features and better chains.

You are confusing the humam for the product of the labor.

 

[KeepTalking]

Yes, this is the nightmare of capitalism.

The human being is thought of as a commodity with a price.

Of course first humans are reduced to this.

Humans do not have market value. They are priceless incredibly rare creatures with a short lifespan, needs and desires.

They are merely forced to rent their labor in abusive destructive systems of control that rob many things so a tiny few can live like kings.

Capitalism is one baby step from slavery. It has many of the same features and better chains.

You are confusing the humam for the product of the labor.

No, humans produce labor. The product of human labor is a product or service.

 

[dismal]

You are confusing the humam for the product of the labor.

No, humans produce labor. The product of human labor is a product or service.

So what you're saying is it's OK to buy and sell people??11?![/ksen]

 

[ksen]

Labor, like soylent green, is people.

 

[dismal]

To Serve Man is a cookbook! A cookbook!

 

[ksen]

One of the better episodes.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

He's right. Welfare is the job of government, not the business sector.

Exactly how is paying someone to perform labor welfare? It's just the opposite... wait did I miss opposite day again?

You're just showing that you don't get it.

Business trades labor for money. Your side keeps trying to make it into a welfare system for the employees, never mind that that's the government's job, not businesses job. It's just that when you make business do it you hide the cost and think you're not spending the money.

 

[KeepTalking]

No, humans produce labor. The product of human labor is a product or service.

So what you're saying is it's OK to buy and sell people??11?![/ksen]

I don't recall saying that.

 

[KeepTalking]

Exactly how is paying someone to perform labor welfare? It's just the opposite... wait did I miss opposite day again?

You're just showing that you don't get it.

Nope, I am pretty sure I am showing that you don't get it. Welfare is what happens in a civilized society when someone is unable to find or perform work that benefits that society.

Business trades labor for money. Your side keeps trying to make it into a welfare system for the employees, never mind that that's the government's job, not businesses job. It's just that when you make business do it you hide the cost and think you're not spending the money.

If a business employs a worker, they should be paying that worker a wage that allows that worker to not utilize welfare programs for the duration of their employment. Otherwise, the business is as much of a receiver of the welfare as is the worker.

 

[SimpleDon]

This question cuts to the core of what one considers to be the reason that the economy exists. What is the economy's purpose?

Conservatives and free market cheerleaders say that the purpose of the economy is to maximize the use of scrace resources. To produce the best efficiency and the lowest price for the good or service. Period.

They ignore or are ideologically incapable of acknowledging the following;

• the economy has been and is becoming increasingly demand driven, not supply driven as it was 130 years ago when their theories were developed.
• wages make up 95% of the demand in the economy.
• cutting wages cuts demand and restricts the economy.
• profits are also part of the costs of production, costs that have more than doubled in the last 40 years.
• I don't see the same enthusiasm on their part to reduce profits to lower the prices of goods and services.
• this calls into question their single minded dedication to lowering costs and prices.
• the economy also determines the distribution of income and wealth, the rewards of the economy.
• wages are the way that the rewards from the economy are distributed to say 99% of the people in society.
• this has to be considered an at least equal if not more important purpose of the economy than efficiency and lower prices.
• profits are important to maintain capitalism, to build new and maintain the existing.
• but we currently raise four times the amount of financial capital than is used for new business investments.
• and maintenance of the existing is handled before profits are taken.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

The really believe there is nothing that might make labor different than a loaf of bread or a gallon of milk and there policy prescriptions show it.

:shakeshead:

What's different?

Labor is produced by human beings, whose lives and future have intrinsic value. It is the means by which those human beings acquire money in order to perpetuate their lives and maintain their property.

Milk is produced by cows, whose lives and future have little else but monetary value; significantly, milk also has none but monetary value and/or its value as a food product for someone who has already purchased it. A cow does not seek to preserve its life, nor does it have a right to live; cows are not trying to maintain their property, nor do they have a right to pursue happiness. Cows not people, they are farm animals that exist at the mercy of human beings and can be lawfully bought and sold or killed and eaten on a whim.

Basically, the difference between labor and milk is similar to the difference between humans and cows.

 

[dismal]

What's different?

Labor is produced by human beings, whose lives and future have intrinsic value. It is the means by which those human beings acquire money in order to perpetuate their lives and maintain their property.

Milk is produced by cows, whose lives and future have little else but monetary value; significantly, milk also has none but monetary value and/or its value as a food product for someone who has already purchased it. A cow does not seek to preserve its life, nor does it have a right to live; cows are not trying to maintain their property, nor do they have a right to pursue happiness. Cows not people, they are farm animals that exist at the mercy of human beings and can be lawfully bought and sold or killed and eaten on a whim.

Basically, the difference between labor and milk is similar to the difference between humans and cows.

So, labor is not like milk because milk is produced by cows, but labor is like a loaf of bread because they are both produced by human beings?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Labor is produced by human beings, whose lives and future have intrinsic value. It is the means by which those human beings acquire money in order to perpetuate their lives and maintain their property.

Milk is produced by cows, whose lives and future have little else but monetary value; significantly, milk also has none but monetary value and/or its value as a food product for someone who has already purchased it. A cow does not seek to preserve its life, nor does it have a right to live; cows are not trying to maintain their property, nor do they have a right to pursue happiness. Cows not people, they are farm animals that exist at the mercy of human beings and can be lawfully bought and sold or killed and eaten on a whim.

Basically, the difference between labor and milk is similar to the difference between humans and cows.

So, labor is not like milk because milk is produced by cows, but labor is like a loaf of bread because they are both produced by human beings?

Nope. Human beings produce labor. That's literally ALL a human being produces. Not loafs of bread; not cars; not battleships; not computers; not even software.

Labor, in turn, produces products of varying quality and value, depending on the person performing that labor, the skills they possess, their work ethic, talent, training and resources. Certain types of labor are more valuable than others, depending on the person who produces it (the labor of a software engineer is a lot more valuable than the labor of a burger flipper, for example). Labor can be bought and sold in various ways on the market, and can be traded between companies, upgraded, invested in, eliminated or replaced.

Human beings can't. Human beings have intrinsic value as people. We produce labor to survive because survival is our imperative as living beings and our right as members of a free society. The fruits of our labor -- bread, cars, battleships, computers, software -- are bought and sold and traded by companies, retailers and ultimately by other people who also produce labor to be able to purchase those products for their enjoyment.

Human beings, however, have no market value. We cannot be bought and sold, we cannot be liquidated for cash commoditized as assets. Neither does human survival have a quantifiable value, nor human happiness, comfort, health or safety. These are things that exist OUTSIDE of economic considerations and have intrinsic value in and of themselves. The cost to achieve (some of) those things can be calculated on a case-by-case basis, but none of those have an inherent monetary value. That means Labor is a unique type of product: it is the means of income for human beings, who have certain inalienable rights, and whose value as living things and as members of society is not determined by market forces. Which means even if the labor produced by a specific person doesn't fetch that great of a price on the market, you cannot conscionably compensate that person at a rate that is not adequate for him to continue to survive; his value as a person supersedes whatever value the market might assign his labor.


It's really simple, actually. The work done by a person has a price; the person who does the work is priceless.

 

[dismal]

So, labor is not like milk because milk is produced by cows, but labor is like a loaf of bread because they are both produced by human beings?

Nope. Human beings produce labor. That's literally ALL a human being produces. Not loafs of bread; not cars; not battleships; not computers; not even software.

Labor, in turn, produces products of varying quality and value, depending on the person performing that labor, the skills they possess, their work ethic, talent, training and resources. Certain types of labor are more valuable than others, depending on the person who produces it (the labor of a software engineer is a lot more valuable than the labor of a burger flipper, for example). Labor can be bought and sold in various ways on the market, and can be traded between companies, upgraded, invested in, eliminated or replaced.

Human beings can't. Human beings have intrinsic value as people. We produce labor to survive because survival is our imperative as living beings and our right as members of a free society. The fruits of our labor -- bread, cars, battleships, computers, software -- are bought and sold and traded by companies, retailers and ultimately by other people who also produce labor to be able to purchase those products for their enjoyment.

Human beings, however, have no market value. We cannot be bought and sold, we cannot be liquidated for cash commoditized as assets. Neither does human survival have a quantifiable value, nor human happiness, comfort, health or safety. These are things that exist OUTSIDE of economic considerations and have intrinsic value in and of themselves. The cost to achieve (some of) those things can be calculated on a case-by-case basis, but none of those have an inherent monetary value.


It's really simple, actually. The work done by a person has a price; the person who does the work is priceless.

Human beings don't produce loafs of bread?

Pretty sure this is not true.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Nope. Human beings produce labor. That's literally ALL a human being produces. Not loafs of bread; not cars; not battleships; not computers; not even software.

Labor, in turn, produces products of varying quality and value, depending on the person performing that labor, the skills they possess, their work ethic, talent, training and resources. Certain types of labor are more valuable than others, depending on the person who produces it (the labor of a software engineer is a lot more valuable than the labor of a burger flipper, for example). Labor can be bought and sold in various ways on the market, and can be traded between companies, upgraded, invested in, eliminated or replaced.

Human beings can't. Human beings have intrinsic value as people. We produce labor to survive because survival is our imperative as living beings and our right as members of a free society. The fruits of our labor -- bread, cars, battleships, computers, software -- are bought and sold and traded by companies, retailers and ultimately by other people who also produce labor to be able to purchase those products for their enjoyment.

Human beings, however, have no market value. We cannot be bought and sold, we cannot be liquidated for cash commoditized as assets. Neither does human survival have a quantifiable value, nor human happiness, comfort, health or safety. These are things that exist OUTSIDE of economic considerations and have intrinsic value in and of themselves. The cost to achieve (some of) those things can be calculated on a case-by-case basis, but none of those have an inherent monetary value.


It's really simple, actually. The work done by a person has a price; the person who does the work is priceless.

Human beings don't produce loafs of bread?

Most of that's done by machines nowadays, so to some extent that's LITERALLY true.

More to the point: in economic terms, what human beings "produce" is labor. That is, the willful application of skill and training as well as physical and mental effort in a planned productive activity. Bread is the product of (some of) their labor. This is the reason why employees are generally paid for their labor (the amount of time spent working) and not for the product (the amount of bread produced in a day). It is because employers do not consider the product of labor to be one in the same with the labor itself; products are sold externally to end-consumers, while the labor is consumed internally by the producer. Furthermore, workers are not entitled to a larger cut of the profits if the product suddenly increases in value, only if their LABOR increases in value. This is why a "labor market" exists that is independent of the "bread market" or the "cars market" or the "computer market." Because labor can be commoditized as a service unto itself independent of whatever product that service ultimately produces.

And some labor, as I'm sure you're aware, produces nothing at all. "Service industry" labor has value too.

Pretty sure this is not true.

Pretty sure you need to take off your "sociopath" hat for a couple of minutes and consider that the difference lies in the fact that human beings -- the source of labor -- have rights. This makes labor different from every other commodity on the market in that its price is not SOLELY determined by supply and demand, but by society's judgement of fairness towards people and the respect of their basic rights.

 

[dismal]

Human beings don't produce loafs of bread?

Most of that's done by machines nowadays, so to some extent that's LITERALLY true.

More to the point: in economic terms, what human beings "produce" is labor. That is, the willful application of skill and training as well as physical and mental effort in a planned productive activity. Bread is the product of (some of) their labor. This is the reason why employees are generally paid for their labor (the amount of time spent working) and not for the product (the amount of bread produced in a day). It is because employers do not consider the product of labor to be one in the same with the labor itself; products are sold externally to end-consumers, while the labor is consumed internally by the producer. Furthermore, workers are not entitled to a larger cut of the profits if the product suddenly increases in value, only if their LABOR increases in value. This is why a "labor market" exists that is independent of the "bread market" or the "cars market" or the "computer market." Because labor can be commoditized as a service unto itself independent of whatever product that service ultimately produces.

And some labor, as I'm sure you're aware, produces nothing at all. "Service industry" labor has value too.

Pretty sure this is not true.

Pretty sure you need to take off your "sociopath" hat for a couple of minutes and consider that the difference lies in the fact that human beings -- the source of labor -- have rights. This makes labor different from every other commodity on the market in that its price is not SOLELY determined by supply and demand, but by society's judgement of fairness towards people and the respect of their basic rights.

I never said human beings didn't have rights. You need to take off your imagining things hat.

BTW society also monkey's around a lot with the prices of other things. Had a thread recently on raisins, for example.

Society monkeying around with the price of it does not mean it is a good that will not follow the laws of supply and demand.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Most of that's done by machines nowadays, so to some extent that's LITERALLY true.

More to the point: in economic terms, what human beings "produce" is labor. That is, the willful application of skill and training as well as physical and mental effort in a planned productive activity. Bread is the product of (some of) their labor. This is the reason why employees are generally paid for their labor (the amount of time spent working) and not for the product (the amount of bread produced in a day). It is because employers do not consider the product of labor to be one in the same with the labor itself; products are sold externally to end-consumers, while the labor is consumed internally by the producer. Furthermore, workers are not entitled to a larger cut of the profits if the product suddenly increases in value, only if their LABOR increases in value. This is why a "labor market" exists that is independent of the "bread market" or the "cars market" or the "computer market." Because labor can be commoditized as a service unto itself independent of whatever product that service ultimately produces.

And some labor, as I'm sure you're aware, produces nothing at all. "Service industry" labor has value too.

Pretty sure this is not true.

Pretty sure you need to take off your "sociopath" hat for a couple of minutes and consider that the difference lies in the fact that human beings -- the source of labor -- have rights. This makes labor different from every other commodity on the market in that its price is not SOLELY determined by supply and demand, but by society's judgement of fairness towards people and the respect of their basic rights.

I never said human beings didn't have rights. You need to take off your imagining things hat.

I can't seem to find a post where I claimed you said anything of the kind. Perhaps you could point it out to me?

Society monkeying around with the price of it does not mean it is a good that will not follow the laws of supply and demand.

Actually, that's EXACTLY what it means. Ordinary supply and demand curves can potentially set the price of labor to a rate unacceptably low for human beings; if, for example, the supply of labor is extremely high and it becomes necessary for laborers to work close to 80 hours per week in order maintain basic food and shelter and then merely at the margins of survival. Society deems this condition unacceptable and intervenes, increasing the cost of labor well above what would normally be called for in the existing labor supply. This is done using a non-market solution: legislation of a minimum wage.

Other constraints of labor are also imposed. A 40 hour work week, for example, the excess of which entitles a worker to additional "overtime" pay. Minimum safety requirements, compensation for on-the-job injuries, accommodations for health and safety and for medical conditions that may affect the health of the laborer. All of these amount to additional overhead imposed on the cost of labor, none of which are sustainable by supply and demand. In fact, normal market forces would tend to select against these things with a labor pool of sufficient size; you can always find a worker who is willing to work for less, especially if you are allowed to import cheaper workers from abroad.

Hence my original example. Society mandates that you cannot treat human beings like farm animals, and that applies as well to their immediate product, which is labor. A farm animal requires as compensation only the cost of food, water and shelter. Society guarantees human beings quite a bit more than that.

 

[ksen]

Human beings, however, have no market value. We cannot be bought and sold, we cannot be liquidated for cash commoditized as assets.

Some would disagree.

The Libertarian Case for Slavery