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Public education is a socialist monopoly

What is interesting to me is that most public school teachers I know are very unhappy about the way education is run, yet they lend their support for more socialistic policies. If the government is doing a bad job, why do you want more of it?
 
What is interesting to me is that most public school teachers I know are very unhappy about the way education is run, yet they lend their support for more socialistic policies. If the government is doing a bad job, why do you want more of it?

What teachers want is more freedom in the classroom and less teaching to tests.

They want the restraints put on them from the right removed.
 
One has to understand the capitalist mentality.

Anything that levels the playing field is a "socialist plot" and must be destroyed.

It is essential that many get a substandard education or even no education at all, which is fine, many are expendable under modern capitalism.

There are competing forces in the US. Those working to improve the educational system, and those trying to destroy the public educational system because it is an evil socialist plan. A plan devised by that known socialist and slave owner Thomas Jefferson.

As I pointed out (and you overlooked) sometimes people misuse the term to describe something they consider good as well.

There are lots of progressives gushing admiration over the social safety net of Scandinavia, calling it "socialism" when, in fact, socialism is supposed to only refer to collective (read: government) ownership of the means of production.

If those who like Socialism can't (or won't) keep it straight, can you really blame those who don't like socialism for making the exact same mistake?

Full Definition of SOCIALISM. 1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods. 2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

Would you please explain to me why it is so important to you that socialism only mean government ownership? Do you think government is some alien force from a far away planet imposed by intergalactic overlords upon us poor earthlings or can there be such a thing as government of the people, by the people and for the people?
 
As I pointed out (and you overlooked) sometimes people misuse the term to describe something they consider good as well.

There are lots of progressives gushing admiration over the social safety net of Scandinavia, calling it "socialism" when, in fact, socialism is supposed to only refer to collective (read: government) ownership of the means of production.

If those who like Socialism can't (or won't) keep it straight, can you really blame those who don't like socialism for making the exact same mistake?

Full Definition of SOCIALISM. 1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods. 2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

Would you please explain to me why it is so important to you that socialism only mean government ownership? Do you think government is some alien force from a far away planet imposed by intergalactic overlords upon us poor earthlings or can there be such a thing as government of the people, by the people and for the people?

I think they are trying to make a distinction between taxing income, corps, capital gains, etc to pay for welfare vs having the government nationalize Apple and GE for the purpose of implementing some kind of egalitarianism in the work place. This is an important distinction to me.
 
...Would you please explain to me why it is so important to you that socialism only mean government ownership? Do you think government is some alien force from a far away planet imposed by intergalactic overlords upon us poor earthlings or can there be such a thing as government of the people, by the people and for the people?

It's not hard to envision the federal government this way. The president is a celebrity and is treated like royalty.

There is a huge space that exists between the average person and the federal government.

It is easy to see it as foreign. Especially when it doesn't respond to clear needs like a national health insurance plan where everybody is covered.

We have a top down democracy controlled by money. Those with the money and desire and know how run the show, at least in Congress and even in the Supreme Court.

What we need is a bottom up democracy, but that is a completely different thing and requires mass participation, something most see as futile in the current system.
 
...Would you please explain to me why it is so important to you that socialism only mean government ownership? Do you think government is some alien force from a far away planet imposed by intergalactic overlords upon us poor earthlings or can there be such a thing as government of the people, by the people and for the people?

It's not hard to envision the federal government this way. The president is a celebrity and is treated like royalty.

There is a huge space that exists between the average person and the federal government.

It is easy to see it as foreign. Especially when it doesn't respond to clear needs like a national health insurance plan where everybody is covered.

We have a top down democracy controlled by money. Those with the money and desire and know how run the show, at least in Congress and even in the Supreme Court.

What we need is a bottom up democracy, but that is a completely different thing and requires mass participation, something most see as futile in the current system.

Most things seem futile, right up until they aren't.

That's why you keep up the fight.

Always keep in mind, the Montgomery Bus Boycott started off with a plea for a more humane type of segregation because the idea of blacks and and whites sitting together on a bus was preposterous in the 1950's in Alabama.

Salvation comes not with the victory but in the struggle, and victory is the reward for enduring the defeats that come before it.
 
I think someone needs to go back to school to learn was (sic) "inversely proportional" means.

Also, what is the graph plotting regarding science/math results?

Did YOU ever misspeak, *Jimmy*?
Did you return to school after misspeaking, *Jimmy*?

Have you ever heard of Lysander Spooner, *Jimmy*?

I meant to say "inversely correlated" but my typing got ahead of my thinking and instead
wrote a related word.

I think *Jimmy* needs to go back to school and learn the difference between "was" (sic) and "what."

How's that for Karma, *Jimmy*?

Lysander Spooner is the anarchist of the 19th century who established many of the foundation concepts for the anarchist movement that is now called "libertarian." The name was changed because of all of the negative connotations of the word "anarchist."

You will meet serious resistance from our resident libertarians who don't know the history of their own movement if you use Spooner as a reference. They will say silly things like he is anarchist not a libertarian.

Spooner is most famous for opening a privately run post office, a precursor to FedEx and UPS.
 
It's not hard to envision the federal government this way. The president is a celebrity and is treated like royalty.

There is a huge space that exists between the average person and the federal government.

It is easy to see it as foreign. Especially when it doesn't respond to clear needs like a national health insurance plan where everybody is covered.

We have a top down democracy controlled by money. Those with the money and desire and know how run the show, at least in Congress and even in the Supreme Court.

What we need is a bottom up democracy, but that is a completely different thing and requires mass participation, something most see as futile in the current system.

Most things seem futile, right up until they aren't.

That's why you keep up the fight.

Always keep in mind, the Montgomery Bus Boycott started off with a plea for a more humane type of segregation because the idea of blacks and and whites sitting together on a bus was preposterous in the 1950's in Alabama.

Salvation comes not with the victory but in the struggle, and victory is the reward for enduring the defeats that come before it.

And then the problem becomes that the cavalry doesn't want to give up the horse. Yes, racism still exists in the US, but it's mostly a generational issue that will die out before you change minds. And yes, there will always be a very narrow group of racist idiots, but the best thing to do IMO is to ignore them (unless they break the law).
 
"Public education is a socialist monopoly, a real one." - The Late Milton Friedman, Professor Emeritus

[image deleted]​

Yes, the economy that we have is a mixed economy, some enterprises are privately owned, the vast majority of which are run for profit. The remainder are run by the government. There are obvious enterprises that operate better under one or the other of the models. National defense, the justice system, infrastructure, for example are better under the government. Developing consumer products responsive to consumer tastes is better handled by for profit private enterprise.

Like the economy as a whole education is also a mixed system, the majority of it provided by the government, the remainder by private, not for profit organizations, parochial and private schools.

The for profit private enterprise model is not a good fit for education. It is rather like health care in this regard. The for profit model of competing enterprises developing products to live or die in the market like brands of tissues stumbles because the "products" that fail in the marketplace will be the education of some of our children.

Therefore we have gone with the third model that hasn't been mentioned yet, professionalism. We define standards that the professionals have to meet and the standards that they have to maintain. Whether they are teaching in public or private schools the quality of the education is determined not by what generates the most profit in the market but by the professionalism of the educators.

Likewise the health care system is run by doctors and nurses, professionals charged with providing good health care, not profits. As we have learned over the last forty years or so as the for profit model has slowly taken over more of the health care system the for profit model adds costs without any benefits over the not for profit model.

One of the requirements for the for profit marketplace to operate is an educated consumer. By definition the consumers of education, children, don't meet this requirement. Most parents only have their experience of the education that they dimly remember from twenty or thirty years before to judge by and they don't experience their children’s education directly.


-- more below --​
 
"In 1950, we spent (in 1989 dollars) $1,333 per student. In 1989 we spent $4931. As John Silber, the President of Boston University, has written, 'It is troubling that this nearly fourfold increase in real spending has brought no improvement. It is scandalous that it has not prevented substantial decline.' " -
William J. Bennett, former Secretary of Education, in The De-Valuing of America

Embracing a socialist-globalist worldview that opposes free enterprise and representative government, the new, outcome-based national curriculum is precisely what the Father of Progressive Education foresaw. In 1928, Professor John Dewey of the Teachers’ College at Columbia University identified public education’s political function—that being “to construct communist society.” The next year Dewey added, “We are in for some kind of socialism, call it by whatever name we please.” - John Dewey, a Fabian Socialist, introduced a new pedagogy – “progressive education,” with us today.

And how much of this difference is due to special education? Actually trying to educate the disabled rather than simply throwing them away like we generally used to.

Oh please, stop the emotional misrepresentations. And I'm being polite. America NEVER threw children away.

Public school growth.jpg
 
-- continued from post #49 above --​


By the National Association of Scholars (Argue with them and students of Milton Friedman)

A Crisis of Competence: The Corrupting Effect of Political Activism in the University of California

I will gladly argue with the followers of Milton Friedman. Unfortunately, I have discovered that most of the followers of Milton Friedman in discussion boards like this don't know or don't fully understand Milton Friedman's ideas and theories.

They complain that I am building a strawman when I am simply stating his theories. Theories that caused the Great Financial Crisis and Recession of 2008. Theories that have proven to be disastrous for the economy.

Milton Friedman's successes were in the political sphere, not economics. He discovered that he could have a lucrative career by telling the very rich what they wanted to hear. Basically that the very rich are the most important economic agents, the job creators, to put it in the terms of a more recent huckster cheerleader for the very rich. And that they paid too much of their passive, unearned incomes in taxes.

But Friedman's economics crashed and burned starting with the disaster of the unnecessarily severe Volcker recession of 1981, caused by trying to hold the money supply constant, to the GFC&R of 2008, caused by the failure to regulate the financial markets because, they thought that the financial markets had learned to regulate themselves.

I understand that universities like Berkeley and liberal arts universities in general are politically liberal. But the majority of universities, including business schools, religious affiliated schools, military schools, agricultural schools, engineering schools, law schools, medical schools, virtually any school in the South and the Midwest are overwhelmingly politically conservative.

And it is also certain that thirty five years into movement conservatism's dominance in the government and the economy that virtually all of the problems that we see now are the failures of conservatives and of conservative policies.

Educational achievement is inversely proportional to educational spending.

[image deleted]​

if this were true the best result that we could do would be to reduce the amount of money spent on education with the best result at zero spent on education. I would like an explanation of how you came to this remarkably counterintuitive conclusion. Others have already asked this same question.

Without question the education of a child has become more expensive because of the high administrative overhead of education. There are 50 state departments of education and more than 13,000 school districts all of which have pretty much the same problems and which pretty much come to the same conclusions about how to solve the problems. It is terribly inefficient and done to maintain the myth of local control. The parochial school model is much lower cost and more efficient, pared down to only what is needed, the schools themselves and a single source of curriculum, funding and oversight.

Public schools look poor compared to charter, private and parochial schools because public schools have to fill in for many of society's shortcomings, they have to run their own transit systems, to help to feed the poor, to be day care centers, to enforce criminal law, to provide support for the disabled, and to provide surrogate parenting, among others

As others have pointed out already public schools have to teach the disabled* now instead of locking them away. Public schools have to shoulder almost all of society's efforts to advance the poor, another job that is costly and that the schools shouldn't have to bear alone, especially since our backwards system of school financing provides the schools that have to do this with the least amount of funding to do the hardest job.


* disclosures: I am disabled. My son was LD. I and my two children went to private schools through high school. We attended public universities, all on public funded scholarships, the Navy for me and the Georgia Hope scholarships for my children.
 
More garbage. I'm getting tired of hunting down your own references.

link

I'm just going to use a right-wing cite to deal with this one.
link said:
In a recent Heritage Foundation Backgrounder, Lindsey Burke (2012) reports that since 1970, the number of students in American public schools increased by 8 percent while the number of teachers increased 60 percent and the number of non-teaching personnel increased 138 percent.

Add onto this:
link said:
Between FY 1992 and FY 2009, the number of K-12 public school students nationwide grew 17 percent while the number of full-time equivalent school employees increased 39 percent, 2.3 times greater than the increase in students over that 18-year period. Among school personnel, teachers’ staffing numbers rose 32 percent while administrators and other staff experienced growth of 46 percent; the growth in the number of administrators and other staff was 2.7 times that of students.
So based on all of these numbers I can only conclude, these idiots don't know what they are doing. This is statistical soup.
 
Yes. Public Education essentially is and should be socialist, along with all other production of services vital to the general progress, safety, and maintence of civil society, and with which the inherently unethical forces of the free-market are incompatible (e.g., law enforcement, military, basic healthcare, basic science).

That is the only thing the OP gets right. Its graph of expenditures and test scores is meaningless and in no way supports the OP claim of an "inversely proportional" relationship which means a negative correlation rather the lack of any correlation actually shown in the graph.

What makes the graph meaningless is that the increase in expense is not actually the amount spent on typical students. A huge part of the increase since the 1970s is the massive extra dollars spent to cater to "special needs" students. This includes everything from the very costly and countless retrofitted ramps and elevators installed for the 1% of the students at every single school that requires those things to 1:1 student:teacher ratios with more costly experts for students with learning disabilities. Many of those students were simply ignored, failed out, or expelled for bad behavior in the 70s. In addition, you have the added administrative personnel needed to cope with the more complex logistics of actually trying to educated such students. How do private schools deal with this? They don't. They refuse to admit such students or they force the government to pay the added expense of sending specialist to the private school for special needs students.

In addition, average test scores are lowered over time by the fact that a far higher % of students are actually taking those tests now than in the past when the most problematic students were the least likely to take them.


Oh, and long before Marx, Enlightenment thinkers and those they inspired like Jefferson and Madison fought hard to establish public education because they knew it was an absolute necessity in order to have anything resembling a free, progressive, and secular society.
 
Most things seem futile, right up until they aren't.

That's why you keep up the fight.

Always keep in mind, the Montgomery Bus Boycott started off with a plea for a more humane type of segregation because the idea of blacks and and whites sitting together on a bus was preposterous in the 1950's in Alabama.

Salvation comes not with the victory but in the struggle, and victory is the reward for enduring the defeats that come before it.

And then the problem becomes that the cavalry doesn't want to give up the horse. Yes, racism still exists in the US, but it's mostly a generational issue that will die out before you change minds. And yes, there will always be a very narrow group of racist idiots, but the best thing to do IMO is to ignore them (unless they break the law).

Tell me, would you advise a person to ignore cancer? Or fight it?

And minds do change without people having to die. Else how do so many atheists come from so many christian families?
 
And then the problem becomes that the cavalry doesn't want to give up the horse. Yes, racism still exists in the US, but it's mostly a generational issue that will die out before you change minds. And yes, there will always be a very narrow group of racist idiots, but the best thing to do IMO is to ignore them (unless they break the law).

Tell me, would you advise a person to ignore cancer? Or fight it?

Well, I'd say go with the best treatment possible. Where we are now with racism I think it's best to ignore/shun racists.
 
What is interesting to me is that most public school teachers I know are very unhappy about the way education is run, yet they lend their support for more socialistic policies. If the government is doing a bad job, why do you want more of it?

What teachers want is more freedom in the classroom and less teaching to tests.

They want the restraints put on them from the right removed.

Which is exactly the problem of socialism - there is always going to be someone you don't like forcing you to do something you don't want to do. I'm not a libertarian; I feel that when you get kicked with the corporate boot it doesn't feel any better than the government boot.
 
Tell me, would you advise a person to ignore cancer? Or fight it?

Well, I'd say go with the best treatment possible. Where we are now with racism I think it's best to ignore/shun racists.

Ignoring them doesn't make them go away. What makes you think allowing a person to have erroneous beliefs makes those beliefs go away?
 
Well, I'd say go with the best treatment possible. Where we are now with racism I think it's best to ignore/shun racists.

Ignoring them doesn't make them go away. What makes you think allowing a person to have erroneous beliefs makes those beliefs go away?

Ignoring and shunning is much more subtle and works better, I think. Racism isn't socially acceptable most places. So if there is a racist kid in HS he just doesn't get invited to the parties. He doesn't get to date the hot cheerleader. The places where racism is socially acceptable (small towns in the South?) it's probably best to just treat it as part of poverty. When people have security and enough money to travel a little, go to a University, and experience life, they change their views.
 
Ignoring them doesn't make them go away. What makes you think allowing a person to have erroneous beliefs makes those beliefs go away?

Ignoring and shunning is much more subtle and works, better I think. Racism isn't socially acceptable most places. So if there is a racist kid in HS he just doesn't get invited to the parties. He doesn't get to date the hot cheerleader. The places where racism is socially acceptable (small towns in the South?) it's probably best to just treat it as part of poverty. When people have security and enough money to travel a little, go to a University, and experience life, they change their views.

I have lived in the American South all my life, studied social stratification and human relations in school and work as a human resources consultant specializing in EEOC compliance and diversity planning/implementation. I have yet to see ignoring racism work. Can you provide an example where people were ignored or even shunned and didn't dig their heels in, taking the mantle of victim of moralists of some kind?
 
What teachers want is more freedom in the classroom and less teaching to tests.

They want the restraints put on them from the right removed.

Which is exactly the problem of socialism - there is always going to be someone you don't like forcing you to do something you don't want to do. I'm not a libertarian; I feel that when you get kicked with the corporate boot it doesn't feel any better than the government boot.

That is a problem with any system, not just socialism.

Any system will require some rules.

And the second a rule exists there will be somebody complaining about how that rule hinders their liberty.

Do you propose a society with absolutely no rules?

And what is most wrong with the current system is not that there are rules. The problem is there is one set of rules for most people and businesses and different rules for some huge corporations.
 
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