Race - where both Left and Right go wrong

[lpetrich]

Where do you think culture comes from? In any case, there's been many decades and billions of dollars spent on educational intervention with little effect.

Like what upper-middle-class people and upper-class people spend on their children's education? If they have superior genes, then expensive schooling is a big fat waste of money.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Where do you think culture comes from? In any case, there's been many decades and billions of dollars spent on educational intervention with little effect.

Like what upper-middle-class people and upper-class people spend on their children's education? If they have superior genes, then expensive schooling is a big fat waste of money.

You need both genes and education.

 

[bigfield]

In practice, what we normally see are cultural differences. It's not that the Chinese are smarter, it's that they value education more. That's passed by nurture, not by genetics.

Where do you think culture comes from? In any case, there's been many decades and billions of dollars spent on educational intervention with little effect.

 

[Trausti]

Where do you think culture comes from? In any case, there's been many decades and billions of dollars spent on educational intervention with little effect.

Like what upper-middle-class people and upper-class people spend on their children's education? If they have superior genes, then expensive schooling is a big fat waste of money.

It mostly is. Most "expensive schooling" is simply to provide the child with the social cachet of having gone to that certain school. A proxy for IQ.

 

[JohnG]

I think, from the perspective of what you are calling the left (I guess, I would call it common sense) is that it's not denying that there may be slight evolutionary differences in variations on the theme, but that it is of no use to classify people based on any of these theories as to a groups worth within society. In fact, the potential to do much. much more harm than any good (if possible at all) is off the charts.

As we witness time and time again, without exception.

No one is saying that except progressives and their hierarchical stack.

Just for the record, it’s not progressives who are proposing Muslim bans, incarcerating asylum seekers, attacking LGTBQ rights, attacking women’s rights (I could go on) - it’s the progressives who are calling the right out for this idiocy.

And in response, progressives get the “I know you are but what am I” argument.

 

[Trausti]

I think, from the perspective of what you are calling the left (I guess, I would call it common sense) is that it's not denying that there may be slight evolutionary differences in variations on the theme, but that it is of no use to classify people based on any of these theories as to a groups worth within society. In fact, the potential to do much. much more harm than any good (if possible at all) is off the charts.

As we witness time and time again, without exception.

No one is saying that except progressives and their hierarchical stack.

Just for the record, it’s not progressives who are proposing Muslim bans, incarcerating asylum seekers, attacking LGTBQ rights, attacking women’s rights (I could go on) - it’s the progressives who are calling the right out for this idiocy.

And in response, progressives get the “I know you are but what am I” argument.

No one proposed a Muslim ban. You know that. Everyone knows that. But when someone repeats the lie, it obviously clouds everything else they say.

 

[lpetrich]

Timeline of the Muslim Ban | ACLU of Washington Need I say more?

 

[ronburgundy]

In practice, what we normally see are cultural differences. It's not that the Chinese are smarter, it's that they value education more. That's passed by nurture, not by genetics.

Where do you think culture comes from? In any case, there's been many decades and billions of dollars spent on educational intervention with little effect.

The aspects of culture that vary across time and place come mostly from an infinitely complex interaction of countless random systematic and random environmental conditions and events that vary across time and place. They determine which of the countless features of basic human psychology/behavior, many of which directly contradict each other, get enhanced, emphasized, and manifest as the norms we call "culture". Also, a single individual with authoritarian control can massively determine culture in ways that have nothing to do with the otherwise "natural" tendencies of the majority of people in that culture. In fact, most of what would be called "culture" are the socially created systems designed to shape behavior and manufacture "norms", and such systems are only needed precisely because it is not within people's nature to consistently abide by those norms.Biology is to culture what biology is to injuries. It provides the constraints that determine what kind of injuries can happen, but what various injuries do happen when and where is the product of environmental contingency.

Getting back to China and the cultural value it place on education, there is as much variability in the cultural emphasis on education between different Asian countries as between Asia and the rest of the world. A fact that directly refutes any notion of a genetically based cultural value of education.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In practice, what we normally see are cultural differences. It's not that the Chinese are smarter, it's that they value education more. That's passed by nurture, not by genetics.

Where do you think culture comes from? In any case, there's been many decades and billions of dollars spent on educational intervention with little effect.

Culture comes from both the family and the people around them. Educational intervention isn't of much use if the parents don't care about education.

 

[Toni]

In practice, what we normally see are cultural differences. It's not that the Chinese are smarter, it's that they value education more. That's passed by nurture, not by genetics.

Where do you think culture comes from? In any case, there's been many decades and billions of dollars spent on educational intervention with little effect.

Culture comes from both the family and the people around them. Educational intervention isn't of much use if the parents don't care about education.

That's so untrue as confirmed by MANY examples in US history ALONE that I cannot believe that even you have the gall to type that out.

Of course, children do best when parental influences and societal ones converge to promote education.

As to 'many decades and billions of dollars spent on educational intervention with little effect?' Equally ignorant and bigoted and utterly unsupported by facts.

Unless you mean that we still have poor among us and uneducated among us. Or unless you are referring to the hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on the Trump family's education alone which has given us a powerful yet exceedingly ignorant and ill educated oligarch who is attempting to foist his dynasty on the world, bringing in more directly bloodthirsty dictators to achieve his goals which extend only to personal enrichment.

Then, you'd be exactly right.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Culture comes from both the family and the people around them. Educational intervention isn't of much use if the parents don't care about education.

That's so untrue as confirmed by MANY examples in US history ALONE that I cannot believe that even you have the gall to type that out.

Of course, children do best when parental influences and societal ones converge to promote education.

As to 'many decades and billions of dollars spent on educational intervention with little effect?' Equally ignorant and bigoted and utterly unsupported by facts.

Unless you mean that we still have poor among us and uneducated among us. Or unless you are referring to the hundreds of thousands of dollars spent on the Trump family's education alone which has given us a powerful yet exceedingly ignorant and ill educated oligarch who is attempting to foist his dynasty on the world, bringing in more directly bloodthirsty dictators to achieve his goals which extend only to personal enrichment.

Then, you'd be exactly right.

Denial doesn't make reality go away.

1) You still have never addressed the smoking gun of Poland. They rebuilt their whole educational system after WWII and the communists tried to make it as fair as possible. It didn't matter, the children of high skill workers were still high skill workers, the children of low skill workers were still low skill workers.

2) I forget where it was but a judge followed your approach, mandated huge expenditures (9 figures, maybe even 10) to improve education--for zero effect.

3) Taking a student from a low performing school to a high performing school generally doesn't improve their performance.

The problem isn't a simple one that can be solved by throwing a lot of money at it--you don't get to blame the system. It's the people. (Yes, to a fair degree it's the people as a group. Since you won't permit separating out the students that could actually make it this is irrelevant. You're sacrificing the ones that have a chance on the altar of equality.)

 

[bigfield]

Denial doesn't make reality go away.

Yet you persist.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Denial doesn't make reality go away.

Yet you persist.

Once again, no attempt to rebut the facts.

 

[bigfield]

Denial doesn't make reality go away.

Yet you persist.

Once again, no attempt to rebut the facts.

Just-so stories aren't facts.

 

[fromderinside]

Facts aren't such. They may be evidence.