Rationalizing faith.

[steve_bank]

The last time I looked we are animals, with a thin cultural veneer of isolation from our genetic disposition.

In the day the Grateful Dead was very much a tribal phenomena among its followers-devotees. In many ways pop music has replaced religion, people quote lyrics as theists do scripture, and elevate musicians to a mystical prophet status, as with Bob Dylan.

Repeating I said religion is one manifestation among many.

It is easy to see it on religion if you are secular, much harder to see it in yourself. It requires introspection.

It certainly does, and I'm sure you will be happy to know that authority worship, conform-or-die, might-is-right, exclusivity, punishment of outgroups, discouragement of questioning, etc., etc., all the stuff that makes religion the tribalistic, inhumane poison that it so often is, and truly, deeply is in the U.S. at the moment, are not in my repertoire of responses to the world around me.

But, like you suggest in your post, although in an opposing direction, if you don't think like that, how would you recognize any other way of thinking or perceiving the world?

The leaders of Russia, China, and North Korea are all personality cults. The Chines refer to top executive as 'the leader'.

Skilled politicians and clerics can use the understanding if dynamics for good or evil. In pop music and movies there is plenty of self destructive messages. In Clapton's live version of the song Cocaine the crowd is cheering cocaine!!! ciconine!!

There were a number of figures in the 19th and early 2oth centuries. Messmer for one.

 

[Angry Floof]

The last time I looked we are animals, with a thin cultural veneer of isolation from our genetic disposition.

In the day the Grateful Dead was very much a tribal phenomena among its followers-devotees. In many ways pop music has replaced religion, people quote lyrics as theists do scripture, and elevate musicians to a mystical prophet status, as with Bob Dylan.

Repeating I said religion is one manifestation among many.

It is easy to see it on religion if you are secular, much harder to see it in yourself. It requires introspection.

It certainly does, and I'm sure you will be happy to know that authority worship, conform-or-die, might-is-right, exclusivity, punishment of outgroups, discouragement of questioning, etc., etc., all the stuff that makes religion the tribalistic, inhumane poison that it so often is, and truly, deeply is in the U.S. at the moment, are not in my repertoire of responses to the world around me.

But, like you suggest in your post, although in an opposing direction, if you don't think like that, how would you recognize any other way of thinking or perceiving the world?

The leaders of Russia, China, and North Korea are all personality cults. The Chines refer to top executive as 'the leader'.

Skilled politicians and clerics can use the understanding if dynamics for good or evil. In pop music and movies there is plenty of self destructive messages. In Clapton's live version of the song Cocaine the crowd is cheering cocaine!!! ciconine!!

There were a number of figures in the 19th and early 2oth centuries. Messmer for one.

Just because non-religious ideologies can also contain those poisonous elements doesn't mean religion is good. All ideology, including religion, is created by humans. There is no other possible source. All ideology is going to be based in human experience and behavior. All those elements I mentioned that give rise to fascist religion also apply to those examples you mention. Authority worship, no questioning, punishment/hatred of outgroups, etc. These are the same things we criticize about religion as we do about North Korea. This is just a convenient whataboutism.

There is one difference between religious fascism and the North Korean kind, and that is that people outside of the religion, meaning wider society, are often under the delusion that religion=good and therefore we should not criticize it, and so the dominant religion gets a lot of leeway and excuses for bad behavior. Then some upheaval or national crisis occurs, and all that leeway is taken full advantage of by ideologies that can't exist without fear and ignorance.

Side note: Islam and Christianity are the same dog barking at itself in a mirror.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Religion can be defined as the exploitation of the fear of death for profit. The religious prescription for alleviating this understandable concern is to embrace superstition and ignorance. But getting past a fear of death needn't be stressful or painful, and I suppose that's exactly how religious people feel about their situation when they embrace their group answer. Having a consuming fear of death is a bit of a religious identity and so easily exploitable for the profiteers it seems to me. We likely wouldn't have religion at all were it not for this instinctive predisposition.

I don't know if that dynamic is changing as humans live longer lives. Most of us probably do in fact lead lives of quiet desperation, but that quiet desperation didn't used to last as long as it does now, so we had less time to contemplate death itself. We just struggled and died. Now we struggle and don't die, at least relatively speaking. So maybe these religious faith/death cults, at least in that group sense, are dying, as statistics seem to indicate.

 

[steve_bank]

Religion can be defined as the exploitation of the fear of death for profit. The religious prescription for alleviating this understandable concern is to embrace superstition and ignorance. But getting past a fear of death needn't be stressful or painful, and I suppose that's exactly how religious people feel about their situation when they embrace their group answer. Having a consuming fear of death is a bit of a religious identity and so easily exploitable for the profiteers it seems to me. We likely wouldn't have religion at all were it not for this instinctive predisposition.

I don't know if that dynamic is changing as humans live longer lives. Most of us probably do in fact lead lives of quiet desperation, but that quiet desperation didn't used to last as long as it does now, so we had less time to contemplate death itself. We just struggled and died. Now we struggle and don't die, at least relatively speaking. So maybe these religious faith/death cults, at least in that group sense, are dying, as statistics seem to indicate.

I would not say that is a definition it is an aspect pf culture in general. The late comedienne Joan Rivers had so much plastic surgery it was joked her grave had to be declared a toxic waste site.

Billions are spent on supplements, mostly bogus. guaranteed to ward off ageing. There is also the non theist modern mystcsim of life after death. Books and videos.

I am not really invested in being atheist. There are atheists who much like theists profit from the issue. Some atheists quote earthiest authors much like theists do. Atheisms can become an identity beyond a simple rejection of gods.

 

[steve_bank]

The leaders of Russia, China, and North Korea are all personality cults. The Chines refer to top executive as 'the leader'.

Skilled politicians and clerics can use the understanding if dynamics for good or evil. In pop music and movies there is plenty of self destructive messages. In Clapton's live version of the song Cocaine the crowd is cheering cocaine!!! ciconine!!

There were a number of figures in the 19th and early 2oth centuries. Messmer for one.

Just because non-religious ideologies can also contain those poisonous elements doesn't mean religion is good. All ideology, including religion, is created by humans. There is no other possible source. All ideology is going to be based in human experience and behavior. All those elements I mentioned that give rise to fascist religion also apply to those examples you mention. Authority worship, no questioning, punishment/hatred of outgroups, etc. These are the same things we criticize about religion as we do about North Korea. This is just a convenient whataboutism.

There is one difference between religious fascism and the North Korean kind, and that is that people outside of the religion, meaning wider society, are often under the delusion that religion=good and therefore we should not criticize it, and so the dominant religion gets a lot of leeway and excuses for bad behavior. Then some upheaval or national crisis occurs, and all that leeway is taken full advantage of by ideologies that can't exist without fear and ignorance.

Side note: Islam and Christianity are the same dog barking at itself in a mirror.

Yet again, my view is religion comprised of real humans who are not perfect has the same dynamics as any other human social group.

The Soviets who were atheist by policy and who tried to forcibly eradicate religion were as brutal and oppressive as any form of religion. For example Saudi Arabia.

If you argue religion is a singular negative among all thing human then I'd say you need to broaden your horizons.

Atheists in the name of atheism can be as intolerant as theists.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Yet again, my view is religion comprised of real humans who are not perfect has the same dynamics as any other human social group.

The Soviets who were atheist by policy and who tried to forcibly eradicate religion were as brutal and oppressive as any form of religion. For example Saudi Arabia.

If you argue religion is a singular negative among all thing human then I'd say you need to broaden your horizons.

Atheists in the name of atheism can be as intolerant as theists.

There's nothing special about humans exploiting other humans. My point earlier was that religious exploitation is an end unto itself. If I have a real fear of death and it stresses me out it's a problem that can be addressed and hopefully solved. Applying woo isn't going to solve this problem or any other problem. No one is saying anything is perfect. Perfection is just another faith myth which is correlated with religion. People of religious faith believe in perfection, just more woo.

 

[Angry Floof]

The leaders of Russia, China, and North Korea are all personality cults. The Chines refer to top executive as 'the leader'.

Skilled politicians and clerics can use the understanding if dynamics for good or evil. In pop music and movies there is plenty of self destructive messages. In Clapton's live version of the song Cocaine the crowd is cheering cocaine!!! ciconine!!

There were a number of figures in the 19th and early 2oth centuries. Messmer for one.

Just because non-religious ideologies can also contain those poisonous elements doesn't mean religion is good. All ideology, including religion, is created by humans. There is no other possible source. All ideology is going to be based in human experience and behavior. All those elements I mentioned that give rise to fascist religion also apply to those examples you mention. Authority worship, no questioning, punishment/hatred of outgroups, etc. These are the same things we criticize about religion as we do about North Korea. This is just a convenient whataboutism.

There is one difference between religious fascism and the North Korean kind, and that is that people outside of the religion, meaning wider society, are often under the delusion that religion=good and therefore we should not criticize it, and so the dominant religion gets a lot of leeway and excuses for bad behavior. Then some upheaval or national crisis occurs, and all that leeway is taken full advantage of by ideologies that can't exist without fear and ignorance.

Side note: Islam and Christianity are the same dog barking at itself in a mirror.

Yet again, my view is religion comprised of real humans who are not perfect has the same dynamics as any other human social group.

The Soviets who were atheist by policy and who tried to forcibly eradicate religion were as brutal and oppressive as any form of religion. For example Saudi Arabia.

If you argue religion is a singular negative among all thing human then I'd say you need to broaden your horizons.

Atheists in the name of atheism can be as intolerant as theists.

But atheism doesn't make anyone a bad person. Much of religion actually does go a long way toward making people horrible people who do horrible things.

Lack of belief in god doesn't make someone any more susceptible to cults than anyone else, and very likely less so depending on how they came about their atheism. But a great deal of religion does include elements and teachings that specifically and effectively cultivate some of the worst traits and behaviors in humans and cultivate out the traits and behaviors that can mitigate those all too human faults.

What exactly are you defending here? I've asked you and others this many times and never get an answer. Are you defending your own personal identity group? Is that what makes it so hard to acknowledge that much of religion teaches shit that is bad for us? Shit that helps make us bad people when we believe it and live in an environment where the religion holds sway?

If you do indeed object to those authoritarian regimes and dictatorships you mention, why exactly do you object? Can you specify what kind of thinking and what kind of acts you object to? I don't think you really want to be specific in answering these questions because then you might have to acknowledge them within religion.

 

[Rhea]

Animal brain reflexes? A bit on the ignorant side

Religion is one manifestation of a basic human trait. Identifying with a tribe.

We see it in sports. People identify strongly with home pro teams, and will defend them against verbal attack, and take offense when their team is attacked.

I feel like when you use the word “people” here, and you’re talking aboout a minority - perhaps even a small minority - of the population, it doesn’t make a great case for why sports supports religion as a basic human trait... There are SO MANY people who don’t follow sportsball. And so many who do not attend church, even if they call themselves “religious”.

 

[steve_bank]

Animal brain reflexes? A bit on the ignorant side

Religion is one manifestation of a basic human trait. Identifying with a tribe.

We see it in sports. People identify strongly with home pro teams, and will defend them against verbal attack, and take offense when their team is attacked.

I feel like when you use the word “people” here, and you’re talking aboout a minority - perhaps even a small minority - of the population, it doesn’t make a great case for why sports supports religion as a basic human trait... There are SO MANY people who don’t follow sportsball. And so many who do not attend church, even if they call themselves “religious”.

To me it is all the same human behavior.

It is about self identity. Back on the previous incarnation of the forum the woman who ran it was in a running dispute with an earthiest on the net. Their are factions and followers within atheisms.

Same old same old.

An observation, 'I dispute irrational religion, therefore I am rational!'. Do you have any problems with the logic?

Is there anything rational about is humans?

Whatever the negatives religion was a way to keep a lid on human impulses. Prividing structure.

The question I always ask atheists, without any real response, if we get rid of religion what do we replace it with?

These days people quote pop music and movie lines as wisdom.

 

[steve_bank]

Yet again, my view is religion comprised of real humans who are not perfect has the same dynamics as any other human social group.

The Soviets who were atheist by policy and who tried to forcibly eradicate religion were as brutal and oppressive as any form of religion. For example Saudi Arabia.

If you argue religion is a singular negative among all thing human then I'd say you need to broaden your horizons.

Atheists in the name of atheism can be as intolerant as theists.

But atheism doesn't make anyone a bad person. Much of religion actually does go a long way toward making people horrible people who do horrible things.

Lack of belief in god doesn't make someone any more susceptible to cults than anyone else, and very likely less so depending on how they came about their atheism. But a great deal of religion does include elements and teachings that specifically and effectively cultivate some of the worst traits and behaviors in humans and cultivate out the traits and behaviors that can mitigate those all too human faults.

What exactly are you defending here? I've asked you and others this many times and never get an answer. Are you defending your own personal identity group? Is that what makes it so hard to acknowledge that much of religion teaches shit that is bad for us? Shit that helps make us bad people when we believe it and live in an environment where the religion holds sway?

If you do indeed object to those authoritarian regimes and dictatorships you mention, why exactly do you object? Can you specify what kind of thinking and what kind of acts you object to? I don't think you really want to be specific in answering these questions because then you might have to acknowledge them within religion.

My infinite loop detector light is flashing, the last word is yours.

 

[Angry Floof]

Yet again, my view is religion comprised of real humans who are not perfect has the same dynamics as any other human social group.

The Soviets who were atheist by policy and who tried to forcibly eradicate religion were as brutal and oppressive as any form of religion. For example Saudi Arabia.

If you argue religion is a singular negative among all thing human then I'd say you need to broaden your horizons.

Atheists in the name of atheism can be as intolerant as theists.

But atheism doesn't make anyone a bad person. Much of religion actually does go a long way toward making people horrible people who do horrible things.

Lack of belief in god doesn't make someone any more susceptible to cults than anyone else, and very likely less so depending on how they came about their atheism. But a great deal of religion does include elements and teachings that specifically and effectively cultivate some of the worst traits and behaviors in humans and cultivate out the traits and behaviors that can mitigate those all too human faults.

What exactly are you defending here? I've asked you and others this many times and never get an answer. Are you defending your own personal identity group? Is that what makes it so hard to acknowledge that much of religion teaches shit that is bad for us? Shit that helps make us bad people when we believe it and live in an environment where the religion holds sway?

If you do indeed object to those authoritarian regimes and dictatorships you mention, why exactly do you object? Can you specify what kind of thinking and what kind of acts you object to? I don't think you really want to be specific in answering these questions because then you might have to acknowledge them within religion.

My infinite loop detector light is flashing, the last word is yours.

Fine. But remember my questions for the next time.

 

[Rhea]

The question I always ask atheists, without any real response, if we get rid of religion what do we replace it with?

I feel like tens of millions of atheists have “answered” that already by existing.

What part of religion needs replacing, in your opinion?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The question I always ask atheists, without any real response, if we get rid of religion what do we replace it with?

I feel like tens of millions of atheists have “answered” that already by existing.

What part of religion needs replacing, in your opinion?

If I stop believing in magic, what do I replace it with? Or maybe he means when we no longer need a diaper we immediately start wearing depends.

 

[Learner]

The question I always ask atheists, without any real response, if we get rid of religion what do we replace it with?

Worshipping will still remain. Self-worship (selfies included), worshipping of other people because they "look good" or they argue about "who's the baddest" and bow down etc.. (all sorts of influencial emotions involved especially when they're young) - the woshipping of all sorts of idols, so to speak. Getting rid of religion doesn't get rid of those bad harmful human traits, as you know.

 

[abaddon]

The question I always ask atheists, without any real response, if we get rid of religion what do we replace it with?

Worshipping will still remain. Self-worship (selfies included), worshipping of other people because they "look good" or they argue about "who's the baddest" and bow down etc.. (all sorts of influencial emotions involved especially when they're young) - the woshipping all sorts of idols, so to speak. Getting rid of religion doesn't get rid of those bad human traits, as you know.

That's an improvement, finding idols to "worship" among real things instead of deranged fantasies.

But it's not exactly religious worship, is it? if the idols are temporary enthusiasms?

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The question I always ask atheists, without any real response, if we get rid of religion what do we replace it with?

Worshipping will still remain. Self-worship (selfies included), worshipping of other people because they "look good" or they argue about "who's the baddest" and bow down etc.. (all sorts of influencial emotions involved especially when they're young) - the woshipping all sorts of idols, so to speak. Getting rid of religion doesn't get rid of those bad human traits, as you know.

That's an improvement, finding idols to "worship" among real things instead of deranged fantasies.

But it's not exactly religious worship, is it? if the idols are temporary enthusiasms?

Since when are gods not the ultimate form of self worship? Sheesh! Give it a break!

 

[steve_bank]

The question I always ask atheists, without any real response, if we get rid of religion what do we replace it with?

Worshipping will still remain. Self-worship (selfies included), worshipping of other people because they "look good" or they argue about "who's the baddest" and bow down etc.. (all sorts of influencial emotions involved especially when they're young) - the woshipping of all sorts of idols, so to speak. Getting rid of religion doesn't get rid of those bad harmful human traits, as you know.

To the atheist I am the Abrahamic god was crafted as a reflection of he male patriarch, not the other way around.

What I took away from Campbell's series on myths was that all myths and gods in all of human history all reflect the same human characteristics, in different cultural metaphors.

The Abrahamic god was far from unique historically. The ancient Hebrews are thought to have got their version of monotheism from other cultures. Archeological evidence suggests initially they had booth a male and frame principle.

 

[steve_bank]

My infinite loop detector light is flashing, the last word is yours.

Fine. But remember my questions for the next time.

I suppose part of the social media environment is people who think they are locked in life or death battles with anonymous people.

I'll get back to you when my light saber is fully recharged.

 

[steve_bank]

The question I always ask atheists, without any real response, if we get rid of religion what do we replace it with?

I feel like tens of millions of atheists have “answered” that already by existing.

What part of religion needs replacing, in your opinion?

ok

 

[skepticalbip]

The question I always ask atheists, without any real response, if we get rid of religion what do we replace it with?

I feel like tens of millions of atheists have “answered” that already by existing.

What part of religion needs replacing, in your opinion?

The only part I can think of is the crutch for those who can't deal with the reality that they are going to die. Many of them would likely have a mental breakdown if forced to accept that life is temporary.