Real life example: Was I racially discriminated against?

[Axulus]

Whether you believe me or not is ultimately irrelevant to the questions I ask - I stand by my experience as I've described it. Would you have the same level of skepticism about my story if I were black and the same thing happened?

I'll call bullshit on the facts of the story. From my experience with volunteer organizations, the idea someone would turn down a volunteer who had the needed professional credentials, lacks credibility. Beyond that, to have such a situation land in your lap, which would give you an opportunity to demonstrate a clear case of discrimination, is just too convenient for belief. Topicality is always suspect.

We can construct an infinite number of hypothetical situations which can demonstrate anything we wish. It doesn't make an argument valid.

On the other hand, if your story is true, you should call her back and explain how the genetic difference in intelligence between whites and blacks makes you a superior candidate for the job. Don't forget to point out how silly she will look if scientific racism is ever proven to be true.

Apparently your reading comprehension skills are lacking. She wanted an ASIAN on the board. Not only that, but you go into some bullshit strawman ad hom that literally has nothing to do with anything. Take your bullshit attitude elsewhere and stop trying to ruin my thread.

 

[arkirk]

Your position on cannabis in the past may have had something to do with it. I know white guys do a lot of pot too, but maybe they suspected you of ulterior motives.

This is completely incoherent. What position on cannabis in the past? My position has not changed.

You mean you are now and have always been a pot head? Or is your interest only "academic?"

 

[Togo]

I've had similar experience. I don't see any reason why this wouldn't be called racial discrimination.

 

[Cobalt]

Axulus, if this happened in the way you describe and if it is a volunteer position and if the racial discrimination doesn't sit well with you, why would you still want to lend your services to such an outfit? Do you still want this gig?

 

[Rhea]

A real life example of what I consider racial discrimination. I'm not particularly upset by it, but I felt a little slighted about it. Do you agree I was racially discriminated against?

I am a CPA and am opening up a retail cannabis shop. In my city, an owner of a grower/processor company is very active in the industry. She is part of an industry advocacy group (one that she started) and was looking for an additional person to sit on the board as a Treasurer. My business partner, also a CPA and of Chinese descent, was invited by her to join the board as the Treasurer. My business partner did not have time to make the commitment, but I potentially did. I told her that I might be interested in the position but she told me flat out that they were trying to have a variety of genders and ethnicities on their board, and that in particular they were seeking an Asian or other minority for the treasurer position.

In other words, she was unwilling to consider my qualifications and gauge my level of interest - all she needed to know was that I am a white male, and they already had the "white male" limit for their board.

Now, if I were to have felt more upset about it and complained about it more vocally, would I have been wrong to feel that way and complain about it since I have my white male privilege?

For the sake of discussion is "discrimination" the correct word to use in BOTH the case of refusing to hire a person because you think their race makes them not good enough to be a part of your team AND the case of wanting a diverse cast for either ideation or marketing appeal?

She has no problem hiring/accepting people who are white, she just doesn't wish them to be ALL white, because she believes a mix will create some advantage.


I think it's valid to consider that this creates a different impact on society and you than someone who says, "whites are no good I don't want any."

Yes, it is racial discrimination.

It is essentially the same as if they wanted only white people on the board because it was to their advantage given the racist views of the people they need favors from, or are their customers, etc..

I don't think it would be "exactly" the same because they are not refusing white applicants altogether, but rather saying they wish to employ a mix.

So I don't see that it is entirely accurate to say "I lost the spot because I'm white" when it is more, "because I'm the 10th white"

Just seems socially to have a different impact than that of saying an entire race is not ever qualified not a single one.

 

[J842P]

I've had similar experience. I don't see any reason why this wouldn't be called racial discrimination.

What are you implying?

 

[J842P]

Quite frankly I'm not sure what is more insulting, the old-school racist who has an unpleasant but straightforward "I don't like your kind of people" attitude or the person who thinks of me as some sot of novelty - a new band of color on their multicultural rainbow - they just can't wait to have my minority viewpoint enrich their enterprise!

 

[Axulus]

This is completely incoherent. What position on cannabis in the past? My position has not changed.

You mean you are now and have always been a pot head? Or is your interest only "academic?"

You don't need to be a "pothead" to run a cannabis business. Just like you don't need to be an alcoholic to run a winery or a drug addict to run a pharma company. I am an occasional user of cannabis.

What is the relevance of these questions?

 

[Axulus]

Axulus, if this happened in the way you describe and if it is a volunteer position and if the racial discrimination doesn't sit well with you, why would you still want to lend your services to such an outfit? Do you still want this gig?

This was several months ago (about 6 months). The position has been filled (I just checked, and they did indeed find an Asian to fill the spot). There are few black owners involved in the industry, I haven't run into any so far (after meeting dozens of business owners), which is why I suspect they didn't specifically seek a black to fill out the board - this state only has 3.6% black population.

After hearing that they were seeking a minority for the spot such as an Asian, I decided not to pursue it any further. Not having a chance to be on the board of the organization wasn't a huge loss to me. There are other groups I can be part of if I desire. I don't really blame her for wanting more ethnicities represented on the board - there is a lot of social pressure to make sure boards are not too heavy on white males or they risk getting called out on it.

 

[Axulus]

Quite frankly I'm not sure what is more insulting, the old-school racist who has an unpleasant but straightforward "I don't like your kind of people" attitude or the person who thinks of me as some sot of novelty - a new band of color on their multicultural rainbow - they just can't wait to have my minority viewpoint enrich their enterprise!

I liked the straightforward approach, it saved either of us from wasting time going through the motions to pursue a position I would ultimately be denied - it wasn't that she didn't want any white males, it's that she didn't want too many of them, regardless of qualifications.

It's a quota system which seems like a soft form of racial discrimination to me, since the quota is based on ethnicity.

 

[KeepTalking]

A real life example of what I consider racial discrimination. I'm not particularly upset by it, but I felt a little slighted about it. Do you agree I was racially discriminated against?

I am a CPA and am opening up a retail cannabis shop. In my city, an owner of a grower/processor company is very active in the industry. She is part of an industry advocacy group (one that she started) and was looking for an additional person to sit on the board as a Treasurer. My business partner, also a CPA and of Chinese descent, was invited by her to join the board as the Treasurer. My business partner did not have time to make the commitment, but I potentially did. I told her that I might be interested in the position but she told me flat out that they were trying to have a variety of genders and ethnicities on their board, and that in particular they were seeking an Asian or other minority for the treasurer position.

In other words, she was unwilling to consider my qualifications and gauge my level of interest - all she needed to know was that I am a white male, and they already had the "white male" limit for their board.

Yes, you were discriminated against on the basis of your race, it is definitely racial discrimination. In this case it does not seem to be illegal, or even unethical or immoral. It does not seem that the person discriminating against you is even racist against whites. None of that matters, it is still racial discrimination.

Now, if I were to have felt more upset about it and complained about it more vocally, would I have been wrong to feel that way and complain about it since I have my white male privilege?

I don't think it would have been wrong to feel upset about it, nor to complain about it if you were. Your feelings are your feelings, there is nothing wrong about holding them, and complaining when our feelings are hurt is just something humans do. On the other hand, you shouldn't expect your hurt feelings and complaint to change the situation, but it may at least be cathartic to do so. I think you took it the right way, however, given the subsequent conversation in this thread.

 

[Axulus]

Yes, you were discriminated against on the basis of your race, it is definitely racial discrimination. In this case it does not seem to be illegal, or even unethical or immoral. It does not seem that the person discriminating against you is even racist against whites. None of that matters, it is still racial discrimination.

Now, if I were to have felt more upset about it and complained about it more vocally, would I have been wrong to feel that way and complain about it since I have my white male privilege?

I don't think it would have been wrong to feel upset about it, nor to complain about it if you were. Your feelings are your feelings, there is nothing wrong about holding them, and complaining when our feelings are hurt is just something humans do. On the other hand, you shouldn't expect your hurt feelings and complaint to change the situation, but it may at least be cathartic to do so. I think you took it the right way, however, given the subsequent conversation in this thread.

I agree it shouldn't be illegal in cases like this, but you don't see anything immoral about denying someone something based solely on their race/ethnicity? The founder of the organization is likely responding to social pressure, so I don't directly blame her, but is this social pressure for diversity a good thing, which ultimately leads to people getting denied for things like board positions on the basis of their race or gender alone?

 

[KeepTalking]

Yes, you were discriminated against on the basis of your race, it is definitely racial discrimination. In this case it does not seem to be illegal, or even unethical or immoral. It does not seem that the person discriminating against you is even racist against whites. None of that matters, it is still racial discrimination.



I don't think it would have been wrong to feel upset about it, nor to complain about it if you were. Your feelings are your feelings, there is nothing wrong about holding them, and complaining when our feelings are hurt is just something humans do. On the other hand, you shouldn't expect your hurt feelings and complaint to change the situation, but it may at least be cathartic to do so. I think you took it the right way, however, given the subsequent conversation in this thread.

I agree it shouldn't be illegal, but you don't see anything immoral about denying someone something based solely on their race/ethnicity?

Not in this case, where there may be a moral positive to a more ethnically diverse board.

 

[Axulus]

I agree it shouldn't be illegal, but you don't see anything immoral about denying someone something based solely on their race/ethnicity?

Not in this case, where there may be a moral positive to a more ethnically diverse board.

Would this "moral positive" also potentially apply to a diverse employee base - whereby once the white male quota (as determined by the company) is met for employees, it may be a moral good to deny future white male employee applicants a job based strictly on their race and gender? If not, why not?

 

[KeepTalking]

Not in this case, where there may be a moral positive to a more ethnically diverse board.

Would this "moral positive" also potentially apply to a diverse employee base - whereby once the white male quota (as determined by the company) is met for employees, it may be a moral good to deny future white male employee applicants a job based strictly on their race and gender? If not, why not?

No. Because employment is usually the basis of one's livelihood. A harm can be demonstrated by denying employment on the basis of race, and that harm is what makes the discrimination morally wrong.

 

[prideandfall]

going to have to disagree that this is racial discrimination - the same way i wouldn't call it flavor discrimination if someone likes chocolate ice cream best and gets that instead of vanilla.

there is a broader context of US social politics and ethnic distribution at work here, and as such per your story you weren't declined to be on the board for being white, you were declined to be on the board for not being a minority when the head of the board specifically wanted a racially diverse membership.
it's pretty much only by the basis of white privilege in the first place you could call this discrimination, so given the person who posted this thread in the first place i find the entire thing deliciously hilarious.

 

[Axulus]

going to have to disagree that this is racial discrimination - the same way i wouldn't call it flavor discrimination if someone likes chocolate ice cream best and gets that instead of vanilla.

there is a broader context of US social politics and ethnic distribution at work here, and as such per your story you weren't declined to be on the board for being white, you were declined to be on the board for not being a minority when the head of the board specifically wanted a racially diverse membership.
it's pretty much only by the basis of white privilege in the first place you could call this discrimination, so given the person who posted this thread in the first place i find the entire thing deliciously hilarious.

Can you elaborate on your statement "only by the basis of white privilege..."

Also, how do you consider not being a minority (read: not the correct race) to not be discrimination on the basis of my race?

Your ice cream example makes no sense to me whatsoever.

 

[Bronzeage]

I'll call bullshit on the facts of the story. From my experience with volunteer organizations, the idea someone would turn down a volunteer who had the needed professional credentials, lacks credibility. Beyond that, to have such a situation land in your lap, which would give you an opportunity to demonstrate a clear case of discrimination, is just too convenient for belief. Topicality is always suspect.

We can construct an infinite number of hypothetical situations which can demonstrate anything we wish. It doesn't make an argument valid.

On the other hand, if your story is true, you should call her back and explain how the genetic difference in intelligence between whites and blacks makes you a superior candidate for the job. Don't forget to point out how silly she will look if scientific racism is ever proven to be true.

Apparently your reading comprehension skills are lacking. She wanted an ASIAN on the board. Not only that, but you go into some bullshit strawman ad hom that literally has nothing to do with anything. Take your bullshit attitude elsewhere and stop trying to ruin my thread.

Ruin your thread is a tautology.

I don't believe the premise of your story to be factual. If you want to rephrase it as a hypothetical, it still has the same credibility issues and lack of verisimilitude, but gives you a pulpit from where you can claim you would have suffered discrimination, if such a thing had really happened.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It doesn't surprise me at all, the only thing unusual is that she told the truth.

Note that he said it was a volunteer position--thus he is not harmed (in the legal sense anyway) by being discriminated against. No harm, no damages in a lawsuit, he can't meaningfully sue, thus she doesn't have to hide the truth.

if she had not said they were looking for a non-white person to fill the position, would you still see it as discrimination?

If race is a factor in what she was looking for then it's discrimination, period. The races involved don't matter.

 

[prideandfall]

Can you elaborate on your statement "only by the basis of white privilege..."

Also, how do you consider not being a minority (read: not the correct race) to not be discrimination on the basis of my race?

Your ice cream example makes no sense to me whatsoever.

i'll address this in reverse order, since the answer to the second helps inform the answer to the first.

say you go into an ice cream store, and you look at the selection, and you decide that you want chocolate.
deciding that you want chocolate isn't discriminating against the other flavors - you are not victimizing the other flavors of ice cream by having a specific desire for one particular flavor, nor are you making a statement about the value or worth or merits of any of the other flavors by having a preference for the flavor that you want.
i think that this example is analogous to your original story, because by the details you provided this isn't a case where the board founder went "man, fuck you honky, we don't want no pale ass mutha fuckahs", but rather it had been determined before hand that they were specifically seeking a minority for that particular remaining seat/post.
also keeping in mind that in this country, there is a definite and undeniable fact that transcends questions of racial politics: ethnic minorities have a different experience with life in the US than whites do, on a fundamental and institutional level, in most if not all aspects of their day to day life - this means that ethnic minorities have an experience in this country that white people simply cannot understand or relate to (the best we can do is empathize with it), and that is quite frankly a unique qualification that no white person can ever have.
if you're running a marijuana store and you want to get input from different ethnic and cultural communities in order to have a broader understanding of how those communities interact with the various forces at work in such a business (ie: perceptions of pot, experience with the police, levels of anxiety about the idea of being able to purchase, etc), then simply being an ethnic minority and thus having lived through that experience is a valid and useful form of job qualification.

which leads to the second point...
it's only by a massive sense of white privilege and entitlement that you could turn "we are looking to fill this one seat with a minority in order to have a cross-section of ethnic diversity" into "THA WHITE MAN IS BEING OPPRESSED!"
it's only by the automatic assumption that you "should" get the seat by default that you can then conclude that your failure to get it is discrimination against you.

- - - Updated - - -

if she had not said they were looking for a non-white person to fill the position, would you still see it as discrimination?

If race is a factor in what she was looking for then it's discrimination, period. The races involved don't matter.

except for the part where this is categorically wrong and displays a comical lack of understanding on your part of what the word "discrimination" means in the context being presented in this thread.

also, how fucking hilarious is it that the people gnashing their teeth about how racism in this country is over because Obama are the same people crying about how racist this story is?