Perspicuo
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Does Belief in God Cause More Self Control? | Through the Wormhole
Scorching hugs,
Your friendly neighborhood Devil's Advocate
Scorching hugs,
Your friendly neighborhood Devil's Advocate
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Religion increases self-control
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Keith&Co.
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Huh.
I thought it was going to be about how far they got through the test before they told the researchers to fuck off and die.
i don't think religion in itself increases self-control.
But the knowledge that people around you are watching your every word, that's a big impact. That's how i stopped swearing in the Navy. For a couple of months, anyway. Knowing that if i spoke certain words, people would make me put a quarter in the jar.
In a setting of religious peers, you draw attention if you laugh at the wrong jokes, if you use the wrong words, if you say certain politicians have a point, if you suggest gays have rights or that evolution is science... The constant reinforcement of being slapped down for saying 'fuck' or 'Ellen DeGeneres' or 'birth control' has a big effect.
I didn't notice this experiment screening believers vs. atheists. But that's largely unimportant. I think it's the expectations of the people around us, or our anticipation of their expectations, that's got the impact.
I thought it was going to be about how far they got through the test before they told the researchers to fuck off and die.
i don't think religion in itself increases self-control.
But the knowledge that people around you are watching your every word, that's a big impact. That's how i stopped swearing in the Navy. For a couple of months, anyway. Knowing that if i spoke certain words, people would make me put a quarter in the jar.
In a setting of religious peers, you draw attention if you laugh at the wrong jokes, if you use the wrong words, if you say certain politicians have a point, if you suggest gays have rights or that evolution is science... The constant reinforcement of being slapped down for saying 'fuck' or 'Ellen DeGeneres' or 'birth control' has a big effect.
I didn't notice this experiment screening believers vs. atheists. But that's largely unimportant. I think it's the expectations of the people around us, or our anticipation of their expectations, that's got the impact.
T.G.G. Moogly
Traditional Atheist
These psych experiments are not like something you do with hamsters. That's because many people in these experiments know it's an experimental setting and so their behavior is affected. They're looking for the camera or the plant. But it does demonstrate the obedience=survival angle when it comes to religion.
Now lets serve vinegar and orange juice in place of wine in Church on Sundays along with crushed dried beetles instead of bread and see how it all goes down.
Now lets serve vinegar and orange juice in place of wine in Church on Sundays along with crushed dried beetles instead of bread and see how it all goes down.
Perspicuo
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Keith&Co.
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i love the Corpus Christi...reminds me of wild hickory nuts.
I suggest that the belief that you need a supernatural judge to be watching for self-control increases self control. Religious culture produces religious dependence.
If you're not conscientious and self-aware enough to control yourself without believing someone's watching, then I guess you need to be tricked into believing someone (besides you) is watching so you won't behave like a mongrel.
Isn't that what theistic religions teach from a very young age? "God is watching," kind of thing? And that they'll be punished by this omniscient judge for not behaving? What else would you expect a culture deep in religious belief to produce? What if they were taught that they themselves are their own "higher power" and taught that they can indeed depend on themselves to be good if they are willing to self reflect and question?
If you're not stupid and unaware, you might realize that YOU are watching what you do and can possibly make conscientious choices without having to be manipulated into it.
If you're not conscientious and self-aware enough to control yourself without believing someone's watching, then I guess you need to be tricked into believing someone (besides you) is watching so you won't behave like a mongrel.
Isn't that what theistic religions teach from a very young age? "God is watching," kind of thing? And that they'll be punished by this omniscient judge for not behaving? What else would you expect a culture deep in religious belief to produce? What if they were taught that they themselves are their own "higher power" and taught that they can indeed depend on themselves to be good if they are willing to self reflect and question?
If you're not stupid and unaware, you might realize that YOU are watching what you do and can possibly make conscientious choices without having to be manipulated into it.
T.G.G. Moogly
Traditional Atheist
It's the Princess Alice effect. Too lazy to google it.I suggest that the belief that you need a supernatural judge to be watching for self-control increases self control. Religious culture produces religious dependence.
If you're not conscientious and self-aware enough to control yourself without believing someone's watching, then I guess you need to be tricked into believing someone (besides you) is watching so you won't behave like a mongrel.
Isn't that what theistic religions teach from a very young age? "God is watching," kind of thing? And that they'll be punished by this omniscient judge for not behaving? What else would you expect a culture deep in religious belief to produce? What if they were taught that they themselves are their own "higher power" and taught that they can indeed depend on themselves to be good if they are willing to self reflect and question?
If you're not stupid and unaware, you might realize that YOU are watching what you do and can possibly make conscientious choices without having to be manipulated into it.
I remember this iconic portrait of the Jesus guy when I was growing up which was captioned, "The unseen host at every meal, The silent listener to every conversation." Creepy shit!
Perspicuo
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That's probably why psychoanalysis moved away from guesstimating supposed drives to positing (and working through) "object relations", i.e. the people from your partly-remembered, partly-imagined past you carry with you and "controlling" your behavior.
Perspicuo
Veteran Member
Unless the "external" reason is internalized. In fact, "External locus of control" is an internal state of the subject, and impinges upon the person's behavior. In similar fashion, your internalized mother, God, "fatherland", etc, all imagined figments (even if some have a degree of real memories associated with them, such as mother), contribute with decision making.
True. I just hate to say "this Christian is acting morally because he decided to". I'd rather say "this Christian is acting morally because his imaginary friend is threatening him with eternal suffering".
When I get up most mornings and review my day, murder, rape, robbery, etc are not on my list of things to do, even though all are quite within my power and ability. I share this experience with most of the citizens I know.
If I say "This atheist is acting morally because the state of Louisiana will hunt him down and fill his veins with a toxic chemical, if he doesn't," is this person any better than the Christian, or for that matter, any different?
Keith&Co.
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If the reason is external, the control is still internal.
My oldest son had an annoying habit.
I told him to stop, he said, "I can't! It's beyond my control!"
I told him i'd punch him in the balls next time he did it.
Turns out, it was under his control.
Internal control mastered the habit. Even if the motivation for that self-control was an external threat.
Nope.
The person who is acting morally because it's the right thing to do is better than the person who is acting morally because they have to.
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The idea of control brings us to a whole weird debate of whether the external world is controlling the things we do, or whether we are.
In the case you mention your kid getting punched in the balls was something that he absolutely had to avoid, so the external pressure made him stop what he was doing, but if he could have lived with the consequences he might not have stopped... that doesn't demonstrate that he didn't have control, just that nothing controlled his behavior.
I'd think people who are truly demonstrating self control are doing so even when they don't particularly need to.
Why does this better person think it is right to act morally?
You'd have to ask them.
Underseer
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God would have to be real for your explanation to be meaningful.
Well the concept of a Christian God does arise from a real entity in the real word: the Christian church. So in that sense it's a 'real' thing, even if that thing is a weird delusional meme.
Because they think it might get them laid?