Religious Brainwashing1

[4321lynx]

A degree in corruption.

I am sorry but i think you just disagree with everything if it is related to religion - you don't make much sense nor do you use any common sense in your posts. Just because someone is religious does not make them bad people. How are you then any different from Religious people who say Atheists lack morals - personally i think most theists lack morals but that's another story

Basically these are all ideas that's all. I am surprised by your views on Buddhism - hmm is that Christian hate coming thru? lol - Buddhism bills itself as an Atheist faith. Certainly does not say there is a God. All the Buddha taught was how to lead a happy, peaceful life - how can you be hating that? Like being against Yoga just because it is connected to a religion. Are you against Yoga?

There is no religion in Buddhism - well, there is if you see the Buddha as a God and start abusing others - i have met some of those. But basically all the Buddha taught was about leading a good life, that's all

Just to bring this discussion to earth and out of the clouds of wishful thinking philosophy, tell us about the Burmese (Myanmarese ?) Buddhists' love for the Muslim Rohingyas.
Or are they (like those proverbial Scotsmen) not real Buddhjsts?

 

[Kharakov]

What we need is a completely transparent society.

Sounds like a lot of fun.

Imagine a world in which you couldn't see what the Kardashians were doing because they were transparent.

 

[sharon45]

Sounds like a lot of fun.

Imagine a world in which you couldn't see what the Kardashians were doing because they were transparent.

I already do not care about what they are doing, because they are so transparent.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Your dilemma is founded on a common humanistic misunderstanding of heaven and hell. You claim that Christians made up the dichotomy to parallel their king slave history. Interesting thought, but erroneous all the same. First Christians postdate the dichotomy of heaven and hell and slavery.
Secondly, you impart the wrong intention of heaven and hell. Their existence is far more foundational than your fanciful revisionism. The actual theistic doctrine of heaven and hell in short is this. Heaven is the place where you choose (free will doctrine) to be with God. Hell is for those who choose not to be with God. To be or not to be…..Truly it is that simple. You are simply caught up with not liking the descriptive differences of the two and blaming God for providing the choice. It is not a choice of religion. It is a choice of relationship. Jesus taught against divisive religions, remember the woman at the well? Why should God force those who don’t want to be with him to be with him? That would be unjust and unloving. That would actually be slavery.
Heaven and hell are simply two eternal destinations of choice for the soul. Now here is where the misunderstandings occur. You espouse that God is torturing those in hell. Why think it is God? Hell is a place created solely for those who don’t want to be with God.
So I ask you….. what would a place solely independent from God’s influence be like?
You postulate it would be great. The Bible simply describes it differently.
T

How simple ideas! But is this is what is being taught around the world as christians try to convert others? So where are we right now? Are we with God or not? And how is this decided that one is with God or not? By actions? I have heard christians tell me that i am going to hell - that my actions don't matter - i am to be cast into hell simply because i am not christian. Do you disagree? Then being with God is all about our actions and not about religion? So, then a good Atheist is with God? That is what i keep saying that a good Atheist is closer to God Rama than even a good Hindu. Do we agree?

I think we do but is that what the vast majority of christians are saying? They do not do they? And that is whom my post is addressing. Sure there are lots of christians with different views, and so are hindus, and so are muslims and so are Atheists but one can't address everyone can one?

"where you choose (free will doctrine) to be with God" - how does one choose to be with God? We Hindus believe is by our karmas(actions) - do good, be a good person, help others and one is with God. Do the opposite and one is not. Do we agree?

Problem with such a scenario is that anyone can be with God - religion will not matter. Atheists are with God - Theists might be without God. And you see this problem affects proselytizing religions - the corrupt religions - the middle-man religions - "you get heaven only if you join us" - if anyone can be with God, there goes their influence! There goes conversions!

But is that the reality? Why are Christians spending billions every year pushing religion?

 

[Ramaraksha]

Just to bring this discussion to earth and out of the clouds of wishful thinking philosophy, tell us about the Burmese (Myanmarese ?) Buddhists' love for the Muslim Rohingyas.
Or are they (like those proverbial Scotsmen) not real Buddhjsts?

It is kinda like your parents or teachers telling you to be good but if you end up a bad apple is that their fault? All the Buddha can do is teach - right actions, right speech, right conduct - these are good values to live by - but does that mean every person who calls himself a Buddhist will do so? I have met nasty Buddhists - people who fall in love with the image of the Buddha - they see themselves sitting with their eyes closed and chanting OM and thinking ooh cool I am a Buddhist. Open their eyes and they start abusing other religions

So many pedophile priests - does that mean we blame Catholicism? of course not

I don't think what is going on in Myanmar is correct but muslims seem to have a problem wherever they are a minority. Not one muslim majority nation is secular - in each and every one of them they treat minorities like dirt. There might be more here than meets the eye but not liking what is happening either

 

[Ramaraksha]

What he supposedly thought was a good life. He didn't bother putting his words up to challenge.

Not sure what that was - he left a life of immense luxury in his search for truth. His words have made a difference in so many peoples' lives. I am disappointed in your reaction - just because something is labelled religion does not make it bad and vice versa. Just because someone says i am religious does not make him or her a bad person and vice versa. You seem to be against something just because it is labelled religion(with the exception of Christianity) - i still believe most Atheists have a bit of Christianity in them - the hate against other religious ideas is a tell

As far as i can tell, and i am no Buddhist, even though we Hindus revere the Buddha as a God, it is the least religious religion of all - they have this stupid "other realms in the sky after death" tales but those may have come after the Buddha - the Buddha did not preach God or an after life i believe. He simply taught what he thought was the right way to lead a life

How are we to progress as people if people don't air their thoughts? you, yourself have opinions which you express. I am sure teach your kids or nephews and nieces. Are you always right? of course not - so why insist that somehow the Buddha must be right?

He is just expressing an opinion - so did Plato, so did Socrates, so did Seneca - are all of their views right? of course not! But are our lives richer and better because of these men? Definitely!

"Because it scatters lies and manipulations while pretending to be wise" That's just a horrible thing to say! Have you read any Buddhist teachings?

 

[sharon45]

What he supposedly thought was a good life. He didn't bother putting his words up to challenge.

Not sure what that was - he left a life of immense luxury in his search for truth.

But that isn't being humble. Humility is about being honest, and he was not that.

His words have made a difference in so many peoples' lives.

Ha, so has very many others for both good and bad.

I am disappointed in your reaction - just because something is labelled religion does not make it bad and vice versa.

Religion is a lie, and lies are bad.

Just because someone says i am religious does not make him or her a bad person and vice versa.

It makes them habitual liars in order to supposedly protect their beliefs.

You seem to be against something just because it is labelled religion(with the exception of Christianity)

I am against people trying to fool others, which obviously would also include Christianity.

i still believe most Atheists have a bit of Christianity in them

Well, for some, old habits die hard.

the hate against other religious ideas is a tell

Again, maybe for some.

He simply taught what he thought was the right way to lead a life

Many lies and manipulations.

How are we to progress as people if people don't air their thoughts?

We should, but be ready for a challenge, since we can learn better from each other.

Are you always right? of course not - so why insist that somehow the Buddha must be right?

Because I talk to people, and the Buddha and Jesus talk at people. I am open to criticism, and can learn from my mistakes, and the Buddha and Jesus are not and can not.

"Because it scatters lies and manipulations while pretending to be wise" That's just a horrible thing to say! Have you read any Buddhist teachings?

Of course I have; that is how I can honestly criticise them.

 

[OLDMAN]

Don't forget the other side of heaven. Hell, and of course the final justice for those who are bad. It is almost as important to believers as heaven. People have a read need for justice at the end and some studies show it is more important than for a lot of them than the reward of heaven.

I am sorry how is Hell justice? So, if someone kidnaps your baby boy or grandson, if you hear that that guy had met a gruesome end would you say justice has been done? What do you really care? That your little boy is returned to you, right? That's all that matters, not whether someone is being tortured or not. So Madoff is sitting in jail - lost his two sons but how many of his victims care whether he is hurting or not? If some of them have to choose between food or medicine, has Justice been done now that Madoff is sitting in jail?

Hell is Vengeance, not Justice. These are ideas of primitive people whose life was much different than ours - in most things the best they could hope for was vengeance - someone stole their money or their little girl there was little hope that they would get them back and so they wished for bad things to happen to the criminals and Hell was born

What is justice? Where is it written that vengeance isn't just? Does justice of any kind change the past? No, but lets not pretend people don't have a need to settle the score. That is why the idea of hell is so powerful. I'm not disagreeing with your diagnosis, only the premise that things can be made right somehow.

 

[4321lynx]

Hell is Vengeance, not Justice. These are ideas of primitive people whose life was much different than ours

Yes, these ideas, like all the ideas of the various religions all over the world, the ideas of supernatural, superstitious "explanations" for life and reasons for good behaviour during that life, are ideas of primitive people. Does not matter whether these are stone-age people, or people living now in the jungles of New Guinea or of the Amazon, or people driving their Chevrolets, or Audis, or Lexuses around the US, Canada, China, India or wherever, they are primitive, meaning ignorant of the scientific facts of life. And religion comes easy - you are brought up in it, your friends and neighbours tend to be of the same religion, it comes to define the "us" and the "them" for your family, group, community, tribe, nation and race. Easy,wonderful, effortless, miracle-filled, delivered to you ready-made and filled with everlasting pleasure in heaven, where your ancestors (the "good" ones) await you.
And evolution, through the fear of the unknown, has hard-wired the acceptance of superstitious supernatural explanations, that is religious, explanations of life. And religion has proved successful : there has never been a civilisation, great or small, without the support of a religion. All you need is primitive ignorance of science in even the most scientifically "advanced" societies.

Should atheism be important to you, it can be enforced as ferociously as any religion by the personality cult of some great leader like Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Jong Un, Pol Pot, and their underlings.

 

[Kharakov]

Imagine a world in which you couldn't see what the Kardashians were doing because they were transparent.

I already do not care about what they are doing, because they are so transparent.

Their alpha is literally 50%.

 

[Kharakov]

Well yeah. All religion, even the most peaceful, is inherently evil to non-members. "Those who are not for me are against me." Basically, if resources go towards something that is not going to redirect some sort of resources to you, you get less.

Who is against peace?

Those whose lives are oppressed by an uncaring socioeconomic elite, who can only be displaced by violence.

And why wouldn't you want the "most peaceful" religion to flourish?

At this point, when the "most peaceful religion" is one of socioeconomic oppression that keeps the connected privileged on top? You tell me.

 

[Kharakov]

Well yeah. All religion, even the most peaceful, is inherently evil to non-members. "Those who are not for me are against me." Basically, if resources go towards something that is not going to redirect some sort of resources to you, you get less.

That's not right - like saying if you go to one school, one must hate all other schools?

No, it's not. It's like saying "if you give resources to one school, less go towards another school".


If your social group gathers resources they ensure that other groups don't get them. It's a zero sum game (although the amount of resources available is constantly increasing due to the current nature of the ecosystem). It's not just religious groups- it's political groups, etc.

And the idea that "all humans are created equal" (come from the same substance (carbon)) is favored by reality, even if that reality is uncaring and unfeeling (a water molecule doesn't act differently in your blood than in a river, so it's not exactly giving a fuck about what you think or feel, so doesn't get a vote as to what you do, other than being something that acts causally on your consciousness).

The problem is, humans aren't equal- the presumably uncaring, unknowing (of our plight) substance that lies underneath us is equal. We have to police our selves. We are the only ones who can leave a better future for the many. And from the looks of things, we might, but we have to make sure religious idiots have no say, and don't create stupid insanity that will bring down the system.

We build houses on the proverbial sand, because we are caused to live upon it. We don't have a fucking choice. So we do what we can.

 

[Ramaraksha]

And from the looks of things, we might, but we have to make sure religious idiots have no say, and don't create stupid insanity that will bring down the system.
We build houses on the proverbial sand, because we are caused to live upon it. We don't have a fucking choice. So we do what we can.

I am sorry to hate something just because it is labelled religion doesn't make sense to me. It says we can't think clearly - that when we look at good food we say it looks great, put a label on it suddenly the food is horrible, is just insanity

 

[Ramaraksha]

Not sure what that was - he left a life of immense luxury in his search for truth.

But that isn't being humble. Humility is about being honest, and he was not that.

Not sure why he has to meet your criteria of good and bad or honesty for that matter. You may do things that others may not like, that does not make you a bad person. Where was he being dishonest?

Don't get the lies and manipulations stuff - he taught a middle path - never get too high nor too low - those seem like good ideas to me. Some people win a bit and think they are the best in the world before crashing down, others face a bit of trouble and think of killing themselves. The Buddha's words help such people

Also he talked about right words, right actions and right conduct - again i am not seeing anything wrong here

May i ask how old you are? I feel like i am talking to a teenager. Are you?

 

[Ramaraksha]

I am sorry how is Hell justice? So, if someone kidnaps your baby boy or grandson, if you hear that that guy had met a gruesome end would you say justice has been done? What do you really care? That your little boy is returned to you, right? That's all that matters, not whether someone is being tortured or not. So Madoff is sitting in jail - lost his two sons but how many of his victims care whether he is hurting or not? If some of them have to choose between food or medicine, has Justice been done now that Madoff is sitting in jail?

Hell is Vengeance, not Justice. These are ideas of primitive people whose life was much different than ours - in most things the best they could hope for was vengeance - someone stole their money or their little girl there was little hope that they would get them back and so they wished for bad things to happen to the criminals and Hell was born

What is justice? Where is it written that vengeance isn't just? Does justice of any kind change the past? No, but lets not pretend people don't have a need to settle the score. That is why the idea of hell is so powerful. I'm not disagreeing with your diagnosis, only the premise that things can be made right somehow.

Simple ideas. Let us supposed someone kidnapped your grandson or daughter. You hear that the kidnapper met a gruesome end. But is that what you want to hear? Do you even care? Whether the criminal gets away with murder or is tortured to death, you couldn't care less - all you care about is your grandson or daughter being returned to you.

Justice is all about the victim and in this case it is you as family, your family members, your grandson and daughter. Not to mention your neighbors, other families who have kids - these are the victims. Justice is when these victims are made whole - justice is slow, non-violent and lacks hate

Vengeance is about the criminal - Hollywood loves vengeance - the hero or heroine gets hurt in the beginning of the movie and then the rest of the movie is a blood-fest, satisfies our animal natures. The victim is never mentioned - all about the criminal - Vengeance is fast, full of violence and hate

"but lets not pretend people don't have a need to settle the score" that's where the hate comes in & that is what i am trying to change. Stop the hate. And that is the brilliance of Gandhiji - he taught Indians not to hate the British - to ask for justice - our own country. MLK & Nelson Mandela did the same thing - not to hate the whites but to ask for Justice for the oppressed blacks. The world is a better place for it

The Christian and Muslim Gods offer Hell - pure vengeance - if you notice the confab that takes place between God and the criminal - the victim is not seen or heard from. Nice God will either forgive the criminal or punish him in hell - the latter is vengeance. Religious use this to play both sides that is what my cartoon showed - tell the grieving family that God will punish the criminal and then turn around and tell the criminal that God will forgive and shameless millions never speak up

"I'm not disagreeing with your diagnosis, only the premise that things can be made right somehow" - once something bad happens esp like a death - a little 5 year old child was kidnapped, raped and killed in Minnesota recently. Hard to say that Reincarnation is justice but it comes close. It gives back the little child the life that she lost - other kids got to grow up, have a career, fall in love, get married, have kids and all the other joys and yes pains of life that she did not. How can heaven make up for all that? Other kids who die later will come to heaven and say we did this or that, our kids will come join us and this little girl never got all that

So, if she chooses reincarnation, she gets another shot & the same with the parents - in another life they will never feel the pain of the loss of a child to such a gruesome tragedy

 

[Ramaraksha]

Hell is Vengeance, not Justice. These are ideas of primitive people whose life was much different than ours

Yes, these ideas, like all the ideas of the various religions all over the world, the ideas of supernatural, superstitious "explanations" for life and reasons for good behaviour during that life, are ideas of primitive people. Does not matter whether these are stone-age people, or people living now in the jungles of New Guinea or of the Amazon, or people driving their Chevrolets, or Audis, or Lexuses around the US, Canada, China, India or wherever, they are primitive, meaning ignorant of the scientific facts of life. And religion comes easy - you are brought up in it, your friends and neighbours tend to be of the same religion, it comes to define the "us" and the "them" for your family, group, community, tribe, nation and race. Easy,wonderful, effortless, miracle-filled, delivered to you ready-made and filled with everlasting pleasure in heaven, where your ancestors (the "good" ones) await you.
And evolution, through the fear of the unknown, has hard-wired the acceptance of superstitious supernatural explanations, that is religious, explanations of life. And religion has proved successful : there has never been a civilisation, great or small, without the support of a religion. All you need is primitive ignorance of science in even the most scientifically "advanced" societies.

Should atheism be important to you, it can be enforced as ferociously as any religion by the personality cult of some great leader like Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Jong Un, Pol Pot, and their underlings.

Well I am Hindu and as you know Hinduism teaches Reincarnation. We die, we come back. And as you can see that few like it, Reincarnation does not sweet talk anyone

To me, Heaven is a cheap fantasy - i find it amazing that so many fall for such cheap promises - it is the first, best and longest running Ponzi-Scheme by far. Even the best of minds fall for it! That is incredible! If i am told that i am going off to some place, this guy will open up is house for me, food on him, all the drinks i want are on him, I get to live the easy good life, wouldn't at least one person ask, "how am i going to pay this guy for all that?" - amazingly thru all these thousands of years, not one soul! Not even one soul has asked! They all think they will get to live the good life of a moocher, freeloading off God - because God is such a nice guy and has nothing better to do.

And oh yes the maker of this vast universe is only concerned whether you joined "his" religion or not. Couldn't care less that you dived into a burning building trying to save a child and died, you are an Atheist - off to hell you go! And the pedophile priest? why? he can cry his way into Heaven

Such ideas makes me sick - but we do see an explanation here as to why religions hate Science

 

[4321lynx]

...
"I'm not disagreeing with your diagnosis, only the premise that things can be made right somehow" - once something bad happens esp like a death - a little 5 year old child was kidnapped, raped and killed in Minnesota recently. Hard to say that Reincarnation is justice but it comes close. It gives back the little child the life that she lost - other kids got to grow up, have a career, fall in love, get married, have kids and all the other joys and yes pains of life that she did not. How can heaven make up for all that? Other kids who die later will come to heaven and say we did this or that, our kids will come join us and this little girl never got all that

So, if she chooses reincarnation, she gets another shot & the same with the parents - in another life they will never feel the pain of the loss of a child to such a gruesome tragedy

But this is just Hindu Heaven, Heaven "Light", Diet Heaven. How does she choose reincarnation? She gets it willy-nilly, surely.

There is no more evidence for reincarnation than for heaven or hell. It may or may not be a kinder idea than certain hell as an idea, but it's a fairy tale, like all religious tales.

 

[Ramaraksha]

...
"I'm not disagreeing with your diagnosis, only the premise that things can be made right somehow" - once something bad happens esp like a death - a little 5 year old child was kidnapped, raped and killed in Minnesota recently. Hard to say that Reincarnation is justice but it comes close. It gives back the little child the life that she lost - other kids got to grow up, have a career, fall in love, get married, have kids and all the other joys and yes pains of life that she did not. How can heaven make up for all that? Other kids who die later will come to heaven and say we did this or that, our kids will come join us and this little girl never got all that

So, if she chooses reincarnation, she gets another shot & the same with the parents - in another life they will never feel the pain of the loss of a child to such a gruesome tragedy

But this is just Hindu Heaven, Heaven "Light", Diet Heaven. How does she choose reincarnation? She gets it willy-nilly, surely.

There is no more evidence for reincarnation than for heaven or hell. It may or may not be a kinder idea than certain hell as an idea, but it's a fairy tale, like all religious tales.

Huh? Reincarnation means life, REAL LIFE - is your current life "Diet Heaven"? What Hinduism is saying is that your soul chose to be born and that is why you are here. You will get that chance once again but you can choose to opt out, doesn't mean you will get to retire to some magic land in the sky, you will simply cease to exist

Reincarnation can be tested - it seems as kids we remember our past lives - millions of kids have talked about their past lives - those talks can be tested - dates, events, names - all can be checked and verified. There is no known way to test the concepts of heaven and hell - they are pure fantasies of primitive people

 

[Juma]

But this is just Hindu Heaven, Heaven "Light", Diet Heaven. How does she choose reincarnation? She gets it willy-nilly, surely.

There is no more evidence for reincarnation than for heaven or hell. It may or may not be a kinder idea than certain hell as an idea, but it's a fairy tale, like all religious tales.

Huh? Reincarnation means life, REAL LIFE - is your current life "Diet Heaven"? What Hinduism is saying is that your soul chose to be born and that is why you are here. You will get that chance once again but you can choose to opt out, doesn't mean you will get to retire to some magic land in the sky, you will simply cease to exist

Reincarnation can be tested - it seems as kids we remember our past lives - millions of kids have talked about their past lives - those talks can be tested - dates, events, names - all can be checked and verified. There is no known way to test the concepts of heaven and hell - they are pure fantasies of primitive people

Bullshit. There are no real support for reinvarnation. Believing in that is just magic belief.

 

[4321lynx]

Huh? Reincarnation means life, REAL LIFE - is your current life "Diet Heaven"? What Hinduism is saying is that your soul chose to be born and that is why you are here. You will get that chance once again but you can choose to opt out, doesn't mean you will get to retire to some magic land in the sky, you will simply cease to exist

Reincarnation can be tested - it seems as kids we remember our past lives - millions of kids have talked about their past lives - those talks can be tested - dates, events, names - all can be checked and verified. There is no known way to test the concepts of heaven and hell - they are pure fantasies of primitive people

Bullshit. There are no real support for reinvarnation. Believing in that is just magic belief.

^ ^ ^

This.

Agreed.