Religious Brainwashing1

[Ramaraksha]

Bullshit. There are no real support for reinvarnation. Believing in that is just magic belief.

No need for profanity - i agree there is no evidence for Reincarnation.

Most of the members of this forum are either Christians or ex-christians - who have been fed a diet of "Christianity is the best, our ideas are the best, everyone else is stupid" etc and from my experience i use the term ex-christians loosely or maybe more apt than call them Atheists - anyway, my goal here is to give you a different view of Reincarnation

Talk about Justice, talk about Real life - Heaven is running away from life - telling the greedy gullible that a magic Sugar Daddy will take good care of them. Reincarnation says otherwise - it is for the Warrior - not for the coward

 

[sharon45]

But that isn't being humble. Humility is about being honest, and he was not that.

Not sure why he has to meet your criteria of good and bad or honesty for that matter.

It is just my opinion that anyone can freely disagree with or ignore.

You may do things that others may not like, that does not make you a bad person.

Obviously, but this still does not necessarily make me a good person either.

Don't get the lies and manipulations stuff - he taught a middle path - never get too high nor too low

That is already yet another manipulation, since there is really no so-called middle path.

those seem like good ideas to me.

Yes, I got that, and most are going to agree, but that is not what wisdom is about. One reason why it is valuable is because it is so very rare. Millions are not going to be listening to and following wisdom.

The Buddha's words help such people

Help is merely a general term which could be for good and/or bad.

Also he talked about right words, right actions and right conduct - again i am not seeing anything wrong here

Of course, given your descriptively slanted word choice.

May i ask how old you are? I feel like i am talking to a teenager. Are you?

I am 53. Now, is that quite enough past a teenager for you?

 

[Kharakov]

I am 53. Now, is that quite enough past a teenager for you?

You need to argue more. Try yelling at people at coffee shops, while dressed in ragged clothes (don't look at them directly, pick a spot on a wall behind them so they aren't sure whether you're talking to them or a hallucination....).

 

[sharon45]

i agree there is no evidence for Reincarnation.

We already went over this many times, days ago, and then you start talking like there are millions of kids offering evidence. Hence the profanity.

Most of the members of this forum are either Christians or ex-christians - who have been fed a diet of "Christianity is the best, our ideas are the best, everyone else is stupid" etc

Religious people of all stripes claim their belief is the one true religion.

and from my experience i use the term ex-christians loosely or maybe more apt than call them Atheists

Ha, yeah, your so-called experience, which keeps the jury out on whether I am a Christian or atheist.

anyway, my goal here is to give you a different view of Reincarnation

And you have, and others here have also given you much else to think about too.

Reincarnation says otherwise - it is for the Warrior - not for the coward

No, Reincarnation mocks both personalities.

 

[OLDMAN]

What is justice? Where is it written that vengeance isn't just? Does justice of any kind change the past? No, but lets not pretend people don't have a need to settle the score. That is why the idea of hell is so powerful. I'm not disagreeing with your diagnosis, only the premise that things can be made right somehow.

Simple ideas. Let us supposed someone kidnapped your grandson or daughter. You hear that the kidnapper met a gruesome end. But is that what you want to hear? Do you even care? Whether the criminal gets away with murder or is tortured to death, you couldn't care less - all you care about is your grandson or daughter being returned to you.

Justice is all about the victim and in this case it is you as family, your family members, your grandson and daughter. Not to mention your neighbors, other families who have kids - these are the victims. Justice is when these victims are made whole - justice is slow, non-violent and lacks hate

Vengeance is about the criminal - Hollywood loves vengeance - the hero or heroine gets hurt in the beginning of the movie and then the rest of the movie is a blood-fest, satisfies our animal natures. The victim is never mentioned - all about the criminal - Vengeance is fast, full of violence and hate

"but lets not pretend people don't have a need to settle the score" that's where the hate comes in & that is what i am trying to change. Stop the hate. And that is the brilliance of Gandhiji - he taught Indians not to hate the British - to ask for justice - our own country. MLK & Nelson Mandela did the same thing - not to hate the whites but to ask for Justice for the oppressed blacks. The world is a better place for it

The Christian and Muslim Gods offer Hell - pure vengeance - if you notice the confab that takes place between God and the criminal - the victim is not seen or heard from. Nice God will either forgive the criminal or punish him in hell - the latter is vengeance. Religious use this to play both sides that is what my cartoon showed - tell the grieving family that God will punish the criminal and then turn around and tell the criminal that God will forgive and shameless millions never speak up

"I'm not disagreeing with your diagnosis, only the premise that things can be made right somehow" - once something bad happens esp like a death - a little 5 year old child was kidnapped, raped and killed in Minnesota recently. Hard to say that Reincarnation is justice but it comes close. It gives back the little child the life that she lost - other kids got to grow up, have a career, fall in love, get married, have kids and all the other joys and yes pains of life that she did not. How can heaven make up for all that? Other kids who die later will come to heaven and say we did this or that, our kids will come join us and this little girl never got all that

So, if she chooses reincarnation, she gets another shot & the same with the parents - in another life they will never feel the pain of the loss of a child to such a gruesome tragedy

If someone doesn't remember their past life, then it doesn't matter if they get another life. Recycling people isn't justice. It really isn't anything meaningful at all. lol

 

[Ramaraksha]

I am 53. Now, is that quite enough past a teenager for you?

You didn't get the point - i feel like i am talking to a teenager and not a grownup - because you seem to disagree with anything labelled religion. As i posted - if you are eating something and you like and then are told it is religion i see you suddenly hating it & that is wrong

The Buddha was a philosopher, basically - no different from Kant, Plato or Seneca - i like the latter a lot but there is a lot to like from the others as well & that is how we become better people - at a different stage in your life, you might find the science in Buddha's teachings

I am not a big fan of his teachings - way too many people want joy and happiness, a way out of pain and Suffering. My faith, Hinduism, teaches a Way IN

 

[Ramaraksha]

If someone doesn't remember their past life, then it doesn't matter if they get another life. Recycling people isn't justice. It really isn't anything meaningful at all. lol

It is somewhat like taking a class - that was last year - now you are in a different grade - you are not going back and retaking the previous grades tests, you can't keep correcting your previous grades test mistakes

The problem with remembering the past life is then you live in the past - if you knew you were murdered or were a murderer in the past, now you are searching for the victims or people you knew in the past and that won't be easy as time has passed & so you may spend years living in the past

The goal is not being understood - the goal is to be a God! The goal is to be a Buddha!

You may call it recycling but that is what we have - we have this life and that's as far as we know this is it. So after you die you are not going to some magic retirement home in the sky - you either stay away or come back to the same earth in another life. sorry we don't do magic happy retirement homes in the sky

 

[sharon45]

I am 53. Now, is that quite enough past a teenager for you?

You didn't get the point - i feel like i am talking to a teenager and not a grownup

Uh, no, I think I figured that out from your clear tells a couple of weeks ago. Attempting to put me down does not work, because it is just empty words.

because you seem to disagree with anything labelled religion.

Yes, I pretty much do, since religions are corrupt.

As i posted - if you are eating something and you like and then are told it is religion i see you suddenly hating it & that is wrong

Religion is wrong, and I do not want any part of it.

The Buddha was a philosopher, basically - no different from Kant, Plato or Seneca - i like the latter a lot but there is a lot to like from the others as well

Right, popularity. Nobody is going to be thinking about my philosophy, and as it should be.

that is how we become better people - at a different stage in your life, you might find the science in Buddha's teachings

No, we actually become better by leaving these guys way in the dust, and moving on.

 

[abaddon]

... we have this life and that's as far as we know this is it...

If that's as far as we know, then why insist on a fantasy about any variation on a "soul" continuing past death?

Any hope of an afterlife (which means a continuance of life past death, whether in another world or in this world) that has no evidence to support it is wishful thinking. That is a "tell" that you don't quite like what the evidence of biological reality is: that death's the final note for an animal's consciousness.

You said reincarnation gives choices. So that's the improvement you and your imagination would make on nature. Also it allows time to achieve goals -- to become either a freeloading bunny or a god. The latter goal being quite a neurotically exalted one that's all too typical of religions.

What people want seems to be really important when it comes to this reincarnation idea. Just so long as they don't want an easy time; that's not living up to... whatever personal idealism you're indulging with that one.

Reincarnation is not "just an idea" or a metaphor either. It's an idea without evidence. If you understand atheists, you'll understand they tend to be pretty big on evidence. (And so the criticism of your reincarnation idea isn't necessarily a like for Christianity).

It doesn't matter at all what "reincarnation says". If it's positive towards "this life" as you say, it doesn't matter. The goal doesn't matter. If it's not in evidence then you're indulging a fantasy and presenting it as if it's true. You need to show it's real if you're going to do that.

And, dude... strategy! If you want more criticisms of the unjust Christian heaven/hell story then don't throw your own red herring into the mix and distract everyone from that target. You started off with religious brainwashing and ended up preaching reincarnation again... But then maybe your "not listening to others" complaint is a "tell" about how they won't learn the true religion from you.

 

[abaddon]

that is how we become better people - at a different stage in your life, you might find the science in Buddha's teachings

No, we actually become better by leaving these guys way in the dust, and moving on.

Both Stoicism and Buddhism are apt examples of why you're wrong. They both have had a huge impact in contemporary psychotherapy and inasmuch as Buddhism's a psychology and a study of consciousness, some of the Buddhist's observations about the mind have been backed by scientific studies. It's not true when people say we'd know what we know anyway even without these ancient thinkers. Much useful knowledge comes from building on the heritage of ideas from the past. So leaving the thinkers of the past "in the dust" would only just be stupid.

 

[sharon45]

No, we actually become better by leaving these guys way in the dust, and moving on.

Both Stoicism and Buddhism are apt examples of why you're wrong. They both have had a huge impact in contemporary psychotherapy and inasmuch as Buddhism's a psychology and a study of consciousness, some of the Buddhist's observations about the mind have been backed by scientific studies.

This still does not show why I am wrong.

It's not true when people say we'd know what we know anyway even without these ancient thinkers.

Again, why? I ended up figuring out a lot of these things on my own without any influence of theirs.

Much useful knowledge comes from building on the heritage of ideas from the past.

Of course, because of thousands of years of conditioning.

So leaving the thinkers of the past "in the dust" would only just be stupid.

It does not mean to ignore them. I am saying that people need to eventually be able to make those historic thoughts seem like child's play in comparison by simply outthinking them and advancing onward. Con artists have easily been abusing these ideas for hundreds of years, and that can not be perpetrated if they were truly wise words.

 

[OLDMAN]

If someone doesn't remember their past life, then it doesn't matter if they get another life. Recycling people isn't justice. It really isn't anything meaningful at all. lol

It is somewhat like taking a class - that was last year - now you are in a different grade - you are not going back and retaking the previous grades tests, you can't keep correcting your previous grades test mistakes

The problem with remembering the past life is then you live in the past - if you knew you were murdered or were a murderer in the past, now you are searching for the victims or people you knew in the past and that won't be easy as time has passed & so you may spend years living in the past

The goal is not being understood - the goal is to be a God! The goal is to be a Buddha!

You may call it recycling but that is what we have - we have this life and that's as far as we know this is it. So after you die you are not going to some magic retirement home in the sky - you either stay away or come back to the same earth in another life. sorry we don't do magic happy retirement homes in the sky

Oh, it's like a video game. Go through the levels until you get to the end and you win....then what? Stay away? What the fuck does that even mean?

 

[Ramaraksha]

Oh, it's like a video game. Go through the levels until you get to the end and you win....then what? Stay away? What the fuck does that even mean?

Pray where is this bright mind when it comes to Heaven? What do you DO there sir? Just take it easy? A wonderful retirement home? God will make sure you have food and drink and you freeload off him and live the easy good life for eternity? Like we see some freeloaders in life - rich sports and movie stars homes are full of "friends & relatives" who mooch off him - how is Heaven any different?

This is the world that God created for us - yes life is difficult but it doesn't mean that you can run away and be rewarded for it. THIS IS IT! This is all there is - your Heaven is right here. You want the easy good life? Sure, come back as a cat, a pet, and you get to enjoy the good life. My sister's cat does nothing all day, just eats, poops and sleeps! That cat is in heaven!

There are no other worlds, no magic retirement homes in the sky. This is ALL there is

Heaven is for the selfish, the uncaring - "How can I be happy? What can God do for me?" - and religions exploit that mentality. They tell you to pray to X, he will reward you with the easy good life

Reincarnation is for the Unselfish, the Caring - it reverses the question - "What can I do for God?" - if you were in Vegas recently near where the shooting takes place which way would you run? Away or towards it so that you can help?

Have you ever thought of what you can do to make this a better world? Which is a good reason to be here? But always the thought is - "What's in it for me?" - that is your question isn't it? Sorry, sir, there is nothing here for you, Hinduism doesn't teach that

 

[Ramaraksha]

And, dude... strategy! If you want more criticisms of the unjust Christian heaven/hell story then don't throw your own red herring into the mix and distract everyone from that target. You started off with religious brainwashing and ended up preaching reincarnation again... But then maybe your "not listening to others" complaint is a "tell" about how they won't learn the true religion from you.

There is a method to my madness

 

[Ramaraksha]

No, we actually become better by leaving these guys way in the dust, and moving on.

Both Stoicism and Buddhism are apt examples of why you're wrong. They both have had a huge impact in contemporary psychotherapy and inasmuch as Buddhism's a psychology and a study of consciousness, some of the Buddhist's observations about the mind have been backed by scientific studies. It's not true when people say we'd know what we know anyway even without these ancient thinkers. Much useful knowledge comes from building on the heritage of ideas from the past. So leaving the thinkers of the past "in the dust" would only just be stupid.

Gave up on talking to Sharon - if something is labelled Religion she is against it. Can't make her understand that the Buddha was just a philosopher, no different from Kant or Seneca

But maybe you are also making the same mistake with the concept of Reincarnation? It is a metaphor for Life, REAL LIFE! Ancient Hindus saw people happily lapping up stories of the easy afterlife and were trying to caution against it? It is like going up against a Madoff - Madoff is making all these nice promises, wonderful returns and a honest broker can't match those returns - he or she is offering real world returns & unfortunately is having a tough time

Hinduism also is offering the Real world and we are having a tough time also

 

[sharon45]

if something is labelled Religion she is against it.

I am against lies and manipulations.

Can't make her understand that the Buddha was just a philosopher

I did agree on that, but I also think he was a liar and manipulator.

But maybe you are also making the same mistake with the concept of Reincarnation? It is a metaphor for Life, REAL LIFE!

We don't really need metaphors for life, especially when they are actually lies and manipulations, yet again.

Ancient Hindus saw people happily lapping up stories of the easy afterlife and were trying to caution against it?

With a mere assertion that they had absolutely no evidence for; very unlike real life.

It is like going up against a Madoff - Madoff is making all these nice promises, wonderful returns and a honest broker can't match those returns - he or she is offering real world returns & unfortunately is having a tough time

And those old Hindus vainly declared something that they could not guarantee either.

 

[sharon45]

And, dude... strategy! If you want more criticisms of the unjust Christian heaven/hell story then don't throw your own red herring into the mix and distract everyone from that target. You started off with religious brainwashing and ended up preaching reincarnation again... But then maybe your "not listening to others" complaint is a "tell" about how they won't learn the true religion from you.

There is a method to my madness

Method is simply a general word which can be either good or bad.

 

[OLDMAN]

Oh, it's like a video game. Go through the levels until you get to the end and you win....then what? Stay away? What the fuck does that even mean?

Pray where is this bright mind when it comes to Heaven? What do you DO there sir? Just take it easy? A wonderful retirement home? God will make sure you have food and drink and you freeload off him and live the easy good life for eternity? Like we see some freeloaders in life - rich sports and movie stars homes are full of "friends & relatives" who mooch off him - how is Heaven any different?

This is the world that God created for us - yes life is difficult but it doesn't mean that you can run away and be rewarded for it. THIS IS IT! This is all there is - your Heaven is right here. You want the easy good life? Sure, come back as a cat, a pet, and you get to enjoy the good life. My sister's cat does nothing all day, just eats, poops and sleeps! That cat is in heaven!

There are no other worlds, no magic retirement homes in the sky. This is ALL there is

Heaven is for the selfish, the uncaring - "How can I be happy? What can God do for me?" - and religions exploit that mentality. They tell you to pray to X, he will reward you with the easy good life

Reincarnation is for the Unselfish, the Caring - it reverses the question - "What can I do for God?" - if you were in Vegas recently near where the shooting takes place which way would you run? Away or towards it so that you can help?

Have you ever thought of what you can do to make this a better world? Which is a good reason to be here? But always the thought is - "What's in it for me?" - that is your question isn't it? Sorry, sir, there is nothing here for you, Hinduism doesn't teach that

I don't believe in heaven. I know living things die. I know the rules of thermodynamics. I know I am a living thing. When the energy is gone, so am I. What other real conclusion could one draw except that we die and that is it? Everything else is simply conjecture on the part of people who believe through faith.

 

[Ramaraksha]

I don't believe in heaven. I know living things die. I know the rules of thermodynamics. I know I am a living thing. When the energy is gone, so am I. What other real conclusion could one draw except that we die and that is it? Everything else is simply conjecture on the part of people who believe through faith.

Basically the ancient Hindus saw people being sucked into believing in magic lands in the sky after death and this was their way of emphasizing real life - to make someone choose real life over fantasy lands in the sky. Remember back in the day people did not have the benefit of science to explain what is going on - a lot of things were a mystery to people and they filled in the blanks - Gods, tooth fairies, witches and goblins - all the works

Religions like Christianity and Islam take advantage - dangle the carrot of heaven - you get the easy good life - but of course only if you pray to OUR God! They have been dividing people for hundreds of years with few people speaking up. This was Hinduism's answer

What i wish for on this board is for some common sense

 

[Ramaraksha]

And those old Hindus vainly declared something that they could not guarantee either.

Common sense please - understand the conditions that our ancients faced. The ancients who came up with Christianity were not stupid people - they created Gods and heavens using the life they knew - kings ruled with an iron fist - they imagined a king-like God who rules the heavens, rewarding those who believe in him(loyal & obedient subjects get rewarded) and unbelievers got hell(disloyal subjects were either killed or kicked out)
Simple primitive ideas that made a lot of sense back in the day

What is amazing to me is to see today's bright, educated people still following ideas that made sense in medieval times

But anyway, as they say you have to cut a diamond with a diamond. When a child asks why you can't go science on him - that was the situation back then - very, very different times