Religious couple persecuted! Loses child custody!

[bilby]

I am not saying I like all of relgion in its practces. I am saying it is a way of coping with reality. I knew an educated engineer who said he would be continually wracked with questions without his faith. Religion has practical value.

To which I have to ask, 1) How would he know that? and 2) Why does he think it would be a bad thing?

It seems to me that questioning things is valuable; and that by dissuading him from asking those questions, his religion actively destroys that practical value.

BTW, Heroin is a way of coping with reality. I don't recommend it, either.

BTW, a majority of people who belive they can be eternally punished for things like murder and theft is a good thing. That was an historical social value of religion in times when illiteracy and assorted superstitions were paramount. Religion helped stabilize civilization.

How do you know that?

During those times when religion was dominant in Europe, crime was high, and violence ubiquitous.

The evidence of history suggests the EXACT opposite - the places and times with more religion are the places and times with more violence, crime and theft.

Indeed that correlation holds across geographies at a single point in time; and across history at a given geographical location. Correlation is not evidence of causation, but an inverse correlation is a pretty good indication of the absence of causation.

Religion does not now, nor did it ever, make societies less prone to murder and theft - although this falsehood has been repeated so often and by so many, that it is assumed to be true by a lot of people.

 

[steve_bank]

I am not saying I like all of relgion in its practces. I am saying it is a way of coping with reality. I knew an educated engineer who said he would be continually wracked with questions without his faith. Religion has practical value.

To which I have to ask, 1) How would he know that? and 2) Why does he think it would be a bad thing?

It seems to me that questioning things is valuable; and that by dissuading him from asking those questions, his religion actively destroys that practical value.

BTW, Heroin is a way of coping with reality. I don't recommend it, either.

BTW, a majority of people who belive they can be eternally punished for things like murder and theft is a good thing. That was an historical social value of religion in times when illiteracy and assorted superstitions were paramount. Religion helped stabilize civilization.

How do you know that?

During those times when religion was dominant in Europe, crime was high, and violence ubiquitous.

The evidence of history suggests the EXACT opposite - the places and times with more religion are the places and times with more violence, crime and theft.

Indeed that correlation holds across geographies at a single point in time; and across history at a given geographical location. Correlation is not evidence of causation, but an inverse correlation is a pretty good indication of the absence of causation.

Religion does not now, nor did it ever, make societies less prone to murder and theft - although this falsehood has been repeated so often and by so many, that it is assumed to be true by a lot of people.

May the peace of the deity or philosophy of your choice be upon you. Seriously.

We tend to emphasize the negative extremes of religion. Over time the RCC in Europe pushed education and land reform for the lower end.

Here in the USA we are seeing in real time the breakdown of an historic national consensus that was the basis of stability. I have asked you before, why do you believe next year will be as stable as this year? It is an ignorant blind faith? What holds society together if not a common set of metaphors and beliefs?

We remained stable through the 60s social turmoil, barely. Radical change was in the air even among regular people. The roots of the turmoil was a rejection of wetern religion religion and soial norms of the day.

Modern democracy is not based on coercion, it is based on an idea held in common and is fragile, as we see today.

During the evolution of western civilization Christianity while a source of conflict but at the community social level provided cohesion and stability.

To understand what I am saying you have to do a little introspection and figure out the basis of your own paradigms of reality.

 

[bilby]

To which I have to ask, 1) How would he know that? and 2) Why does he think it would be a bad thing?

It seems to me that questioning things is valuable; and that by dissuading him from asking those questions, his religion actively destroys that practical value.

BTW, Heroin is a way of coping with reality. I don't recommend it, either.
How do you know that?

During those times when religion was dominant in Europe, crime was high, and violence ubiquitous.

The evidence of history suggests the EXACT opposite - the places and times with more religion are the places and times with more violence, crime and theft.

Indeed that correlation holds across geographies at a single point in time; and across history at a given geographical location. Correlation is not evidence of causation, but an inverse correlation is a pretty good indication of the absence of causation.

Religion does not now, nor did it ever, make societies less prone to murder and theft - although this falsehood has been repeated so often and by so many, that it is assumed to be true by a lot of people.

May the peace of the deity or philosophy of your choice be upon you.

If you can't respond sensibly, you would do your image less harm if you did not respond at all.

 

[Juma]

To which I have to ask, 1) How would he know that? and 2) Why does he think it would be a bad thing?

It seems to me that questioning things is valuable; and that by dissuading him from asking those questions, his religion actively destroys that practical value.

BTW, Heroin is a way of coping with reality. I don't recommend it, either.
How do you know that?

During those times when religion was dominant in Europe, crime was high, and violence ubiquitous.

The evidence of history suggests the EXACT opposite - the places and times with more religion are the places and times with more violence, crime and theft.

Indeed that correlation holds across geographies at a single point in time; and across history at a given geographical location. Correlation is not evidence of causation, but an inverse correlation is a pretty good indication of the absence of causation.

Religion does not now, nor did it ever, make societies less prone to murder and theft - although this falsehood has been repeated so often and by so many, that it is assumed to be true by a lot of people.

May the peace of the deity or philosophy of your choice be upon you. Seriously.

We tend to emphasize the negative extremes of religion. Over time the RCC in Europe pushed education and land reform for the lower end.

Here in the USA we are seeing in real time the breakdown of an historic national consensus that was the basis of stability. I have asked you before, why do you believe next year will be as stable as this year? It is an ignorant blind faith? What holds society together if not a common set of metaphors and beliefs?

We remained stable through the 60s social turmoil, barely. Radical change was in the air even among regular people. The roots of the turmoil was a rejection of wetern religion religion and soial norms of the day.

Modern democracy is not based on coercion, it is based on an idea held in common and is fragile, as we see today.

During the evolution of western civilization Christianity while a source of conflict but at the community social level provided cohesion and stability.

To understand what I am saying you have to do a little introspection and figure out the basis of your own paradigms of reality.

With due respect! This post is a rank, stinking pile of shit! Get your facts together man.

 

[Learner]

(Bilby) If you can't respond sensibly, you would do your image less harm if you did not respond at all.

To be fair, he has responded with several paragraphs following the "single line" you've highlighted (singled out) : "May the peace of the deity or philosophy of your choice be upon you."

(Juma) With due respect! This post is a rank, stinking pile of shit! Get your facts together man

Bilby's quote could apply here, which could be phrased a little differently imo, as a "due respect".. to be fair.

 

[bilby]

(Bilby) If you can't respond sensibly, you would do your image less harm if you did not respond at all.

To be fair, he has responded with several paragraphs following the "single line" you've highlighted (singled out) : "May the peace of the deity or philosophy of your choice be upon you."

'Following' is the word - he posted those additional lines as an edit, a full five minutes after I replied quoting his entire post.

(Juma) With due respect! This post is a rank, stinking pile of shit! Get your facts together man

Bilby's quote could apply here, which could be phrased a little differently imo, as a "due respect".. to be fair.

No, Juma is correct, which is why I haven't bothered to respond to the added part. No more needs be said.

At least, not if you want to be fair.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I am not saying I like all of relgion in its practces. I am saying it is a way of coping with reality.

OOOOOOOOOOOOh. See, you were replying to a post that said faith isn't much of a way to assess reality, to acquire knowledge, but you offer it up as a pacifier.

I knew an educated engineer who said he would be continually wracked with questions without his faith. Religion has practical value.

So does Adderoll. But it's still not a good tool for figuring out how reality works. I really hope the engineer doesn't use faith in the place of a calcula

BTW, a majority of people who belive they can be eternally punished for things like murder and theft is a good thing. That was an historical social value of religion in times when illiteracy and assorted superstitions were paramount. Religion helped stabilize civilization.

And yet we still have had thousands of year of murder and theft committed by the faithful.

See, the thing is that you can only use 'fear' to drive behavior as long as they continue to fear.

The Mormon Church uses fear to keep their kids virginal and sober all through school. So you'd think that some place like Brigham Young University would be an incredibly sex-free, non-toxicant space, right? But every year, Freshmen come to associate with upper classmen who demonstrate that lightning does not immediately strike the building, car, barn or treehouse if you drink or have sex. they lose all fear of divine retribution and they go overboard on indulging.

My kids, in school, participated in an extra-curricular program called D.A.R.E. "DARE to resist drugs!" DARE demonizes drugs to a comical degree, making exaggerated claims about drugs and dependency. It's pretty much Reefer Madness as a Topoic Learning Objective. They then meet kids who are indulging, and not turning immediately into alley-living rapists. All that fear evaporates and they don't hesitate to indulge...

This religious fear of hell for murder and theft only works until the humans can rationalize their way around it. Look at 9/11. The Faithful murdered exactly because they thought their god wanted it. The immediate response of the other Faithful was to wipe those faithful off the face of the Earth, at least in part because of a belief THEIR god demands it.

How many of the Faithful cheered whatsherbitch, when she said, about 9/11, 'We should invade those countries, kill their leaders, and force them to become Christians!'??

How many people in jail for theft or murder consider themselves Christains? How many think they'll get to Heaven anyway, either because they'll confess before they die, or they believe in 'once saved always saved,' and their ticket's already punched? And then there're the ones who think God specifically wanted those deaths...

Meh. I'd much rather see a stable society, than a society with such a crap stabilizer.

 

[Lion IRC]

I am not saying I like all of relgion in its practces. I am saying it is a way of coping with reality. I knew an educated engineer who said he would be continually wracked with questions without his faith. Religion has practical value.

BTW, a majority of people who belive they can be eternally punished for things like murder and theft is a good thing. That was an historical social value of religion in times when illiteracy and assorted superstitions were paramount. Religion helped stabilize civilization.

Yes.
Religion as culture is essentially people doing what they want - with their life.
Where is the good secular argument for sticking your nose in their business and taking away their preferred culture?

In Australia it's quite common nowadays for secular government instrumentalities to formally acknowledge indigenous (First Nation) cultural precedence at events like municipal government meetings, civic receptions, parliamentary sessions...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_to_Country_and_Acknowledgement_of_Country

When you pay respect to First Nations cultural precedence you are unavoidably honouring their religious creation traditions, dreamtime spiritual beliefs, animism, supernatural gurdaitcha magic rituals etc etc

And this is standard practice for secular government in Australia in 2018

 

[RavenSky]

what is the difference between the people in the OP and the typical religious person who believes their god talks to them either directly or through an intermediary?

Why are these people deemed so crazy that they've lost custody to their child, while this woman isn't?

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ9MUycYD6Y[/YOUTUBE]

 

[steve_bank]

what is the difference between the people in the OP and the typical religious person who believes their god talks to them either directly or through an intermediary?

Why are these people deemed so crazy that they've lost custody to their child, while this woman isn't?

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZ9MUycYD6Y[/YOUTUBE]

From my experience most Christians compartmentalize. They don't consult scripture to make real world decisions, except for personal ones. There are exceptions. I did some tech work for an Evangelical entrepreneur. He and his wife prayed instead of business planning and scheduling.. The majority of Catholics in the west are realistic.

Christians I have know have absolute faith that god looks out for them.

There have been court cases where parents refuse medical treatment for kids, it is in god's hands.

It is a mixed bag on degree of faith. For some it is a feeling, I know god wants me to do this. I feel it. I knew a Muslim who insisted Mohammed appeared to him and a friend. Both educated rational engineers.

 

[Underseer]

Yipes! It sounds like this was doomed to be a murder suicide family. At least the child was able to get away, almost immediately.

The husband admitted, after drinking, having put one hand on his wife's throat and the other over her mouth. In some circles, this is considered a "red flag".

OMG, you're persecuting Christians!!!!!!!! [/parody]

 

[Underseer]

Whoops. Responded to the same post twice!

 

[Underseer]

I am not saying I like all of relgion in its practces. I am saying it is a way of coping with reality. I knew an educated engineer who said he would be continually wracked with questions without his faith. Religion has practical value.

To which I have to ask, 1) How would he know that? and 2) Why does he think it would be a bad thing?

It seems to me that questioning things is valuable; and that by dissuading him from asking those questions, his religion actively destroys that practical value.

BTW, Heroin is a way of coping with reality. I don't recommend it, either.

BTW, a majority of people who belive they can be eternally punished for things like murder and theft is a good thing. That was an historical social value of religion in times when illiteracy and assorted superstitions were paramount. Religion helped stabilize civilization.

How do you know that?

During those times when religion was dominant in Europe, crime was high, and violence ubiquitous.

The evidence of history suggests the EXACT opposite - the places and times with more religion are the places and times with more violence, crime and theft.

Indeed that correlation holds across geographies at a single point in time; and across history at a given geographical location. Correlation is not evidence of causation, but an inverse correlation is a pretty good indication of the absence of causation.

Religion does not now, nor did it ever, make societies less prone to murder and theft - although this falsehood has been repeated so often and by so many, that it is assumed to be true by a lot of people.

Right. For example, it's possible that both crime and acceptance of religion are caused by something else, such as poor reasoning skills.