Religious figures blame LGBT+ people for coronavirus

[Potoooooooo]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/religious-figures-blame-lgbt-people-164546547.html


LONDON, March 9 (Thomson Reuters Foundation) - Hurricane Katrina. The New Zealand earthquake. Even the Spanish economy.

Over the years, LGBT+ people have been blamed for disasters both natural and man-made, and now they stand accused of being responsible for the coronavirus epidemic.

Several U.S. religious figures and an influential Israeli rabbi have suggested the emergence of the virus is divine retribution for same-sex activity, which they see as sinful.
"God's love shows it is urgent to repent, because the Bible teaches homosexuals lose their souls and God destroys LGBT societies," said pastor Steven Andrew of the USA Christian Church in a press release.

Last week U.S. radio host and Protestant minister Earl Walker Jackson used his show to criticise the impact of what he called the "homosexual movement", calling it "the 'homovirus' for the family", an apparent coronavirus reference.

The LGBT+ community has been a scapegoat for disasters throughout history.

Hurricane Sandy, which hit the East Coast of America in 2012, was described by a U.S. rabbi as "divine justice" for the state of New York legalising gay marriage a year earlier.

A 1978 drought in California was blamed on the U.S. state's liberal attitude towards LGBT+ people.

On Saturday, Meir Mazuz, an Israel-based Sephardic rabbi, said the coronavirus was divine retribution for Pride parades around the world.

 

[steve_bank]

That has been going on by the evangelicals public figures for a very long time.

At least this time it is not us atheists.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/religious-figures-blame-lgbt-people-164546547.html


LONDON, March 9 (Thomson Reuters Foundation) - Hurricane Katrina. The New Zealand earthquake. Even the Spanish economy.

Over the years, LGBT+ people have been blamed for disasters both natural and man-made, and now they stand accused of being responsible for the coronavirus epidemic.

Several U.S. religious figures and an influential Israeli rabbi have suggested the emergence of the virus is divine retribution for same-sex activity, which they see as sinful.
"God's love shows it is urgent to repent, because the Bible teaches homosexuals lose their souls and God destroys LGBT societies," said pastor Steven Andrew of the USA Christian Church in a press release.

Last week U.S. radio host and Protestant minister Earl Walker Jackson used his show to criticise the impact of what he called the "homosexual movement", calling it "the 'homovirus' for the family", an apparent coronavirus reference.

The LGBT+ community has been a scapegoat for disasters throughout history.

Hurricane Sandy, which hit the East Coast of America in 2012, was described by a U.S. rabbi as "divine justice" for the state of New York legalising gay marriage a year earlier.

A 1978 drought in California was blamed on the U.S. state's liberal attitude towards LGBT+ people.

On Saturday, Meir Mazuz, an Israel-based Sephardic rabbi, said the coronavirus was divine retribution for Pride parades around the world.

If coronavirus was made by the Yahweh in order to punish people for same-sex sex, obviously Yahweh behaves immorally - as usual - by punishing people for activities for which they do not deserve punishment. Moreover, even if people who engage in same-sex sex deserved to be punished by coronavirus , it would be immoral on Yahweh to spread coronavirus indiscriminately, as it is spreading. Indeed, coronavirus obviously does not target only those who deserve to be punished. It just behaves...well, as a virus, with no intelligence.

 

[Torin]

"BREAKING: Terrible person says awful thing. News at 11."

 

[Keith&Co.]

...it would be immoral on Yahweh to spread coronavirus indiscriminately...

Well, there ARE benefits, sometimes, to punishing the entire group for a few individuals misbehaving. It serves as a warning, it also promotes them to correct within the group rather than needing the leader to fix all problems...
However this ONLY works if you SPECIFICALLY AND CLEARLY state the reason everyone's getting punished.

If someone's late for muster and you move muster up 15 minutes each time, AND TELL THEM WHY then members of the team will ensure the whole team shows up for muster.

If you don't tell them why, you just end up holding muster at two o'clock in the morning with a bunch of surly people.

It is possible that God is offended by gays AND by people tolerating gays, AND by those fussbudgets who do not tolerate gays not doing enough intolerance AND by those who are supremely intolerant incorrectly invoking Sodom and Gamera in their manifestos. Thus, the disease is a risk to all, an attention getter for all, makes perfect sense.
BUT, if He is not making it absolutely clear that HE exists, HE created the virus, and HE has reasons for doing so, with a goal in mind, then he's absolute shit as a leader, and unlikely to produce the results He might be expecting.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Well, there ARE benefits, sometimes, to punishing the entire group for a few individuals misbehaving.

Means-to-ends benefits, sure. It's still morally unacceptable, though, if your intent is retributive, as is the case here. If your intent is to get them to do something, it's usually still immoral, though it might not be under some circumstances. But clearly that is not the case here, even if it were a means to an end. If it's a means to an end, the reason has to be to prevent something much worse. But Yahweh could prevent it by means of his own power. Easily. Or by targeting the specific individuals, given his power. So, targeting others would never be justifiable for him, even as a means to an end.

Example: Yahweh actually shows his powers and gives the command: do not have same-sex sex, or else I will punish you.

It serves as a warning, it also promotes them to correct within the group rather than needing the leader to fix all problems...

However this ONLY works if you SPECIFICALLY AND CLEARLY state the reason everyone's getting punished.

A couple of points:

1. That's punishing everyone. It's not the same as punishing randomly. Random punishment usually does not work even if you do that. Example: the government announces that when someone commits armed robbery, some random people will be imprisoned for 5 to 10 years. That would not work (apart from being unacceptable). In other words, that would not deter violent robbers from committing further acts of armed robbery. Generally, it does not work against bad people who do not care about others.

2. In the case of Yahweh, given his power, the threat would work if the punishment were against everyone. However, for the same reason, he wouldn't need to do that. If he targets only those who do what he does not want, given that punishment will be guaranteed in all cases (humans cannot escape it), that would be more effective, and there would be no good reason to target others. Random punishment would be much less effective than punishment against everyone. Some people might decide to go against his wishes, reckoning chances are someone else will be punished instead.

If someone's late for muster and you move muster up 15 minutes each time, AND TELL THEM WHY then members of the team will ensure the whole team shows up for muster.

If you don't tell them why, you just end up holding muster at two o'clock in the morning with a bunch of surly people.

If, instead, you punish someone picked randomly, maybe you will end up with a mutiny. Or maybe it will work, in some sort of tight-knit unit. It depends on the group. But in a large society, it would not work, or rather, it would work partially, as it would not deter bad people (see armed robbery above). Good people would be deterred, sure, but then, that would work even better by non-random but specific targeting.

It is possible that God is offended by gays AND by people tolerating gays, AND by those fussbudgets who do not tolerate gays not doing enough intolerance AND by those who are supremely intolerant incorrectly invoking Sodom and Gamera in their manifestos.


Thus, the disease is a risk to all, an attention getter for all, makes perfect sense.

It doesn't, because it punishes randomly. Those who are doing all they can against gay people get punished as much as those who aren't. People who have gay sex are at no greater risk than those who don't, or even than those who persecute them. Even those who persecute gay people successfully (e.g., governments of Iran, Saudi Arabia, and the people who support those policies, which are the majority of the population) get infected just as much. There is no incentive to do as he says if punishment is equally probable regardless, other than preventing harm to others and a little bit to oneself, but not much (most people aren't affected by coronavirus). But then, preventing harm to oneself is a much stronger incentive overall than preventing harm inflicted to others, or at random. In short, it's a bad incentive however one slices it.

BUT, if He is not making it absolutely clear that HE exists, HE created the virus, and HE has reasons for doing so, with a goal in mind, then he's absolute shit as a leader, and unlikely to produce the results He might be expecting.

If he shows up, shows his power, and tells everyone that gay sex results in horrific torture (and shows he can infallibly do that, everyone gets punished for breaking his rules), that pretty much ends gay sex, aside from the insane. If the punishment is coronavirus but just for those that engage in gay sex, that won't end gay sex, but it will be much more effective than random coronavirus. It gets more effective of course if not only those who have gay sex but also those who do not support punishing them, get punished. But random punishment is a really bad deterrence choice, even if he shows up. It will deter good people. But bad people, who do not care about others, may very well take their chances - after all, coronavirus hurts only a small percentage of the population, and kills a much smaller one.

 

[Keith&Co.]

But Yahweh could prevent it by means of his own power. Easily. Or by targeting the specific individuals, given his power. So, targeting others would never be justifiable for him, even as a means to an end.

Well, yes, of course. But that only works when you're talking about an omniscient, omnipotent God.
When the apologists start defending the actions they attribute to God, they tend to reduce him to a father figure, or an office manager. Basically, a middle-level human writ large, for as long as they need his omni-stuff to be limited.

I was just trying to point out that even if you do take a limited-power-human approach to justify the actions of this god-figure acting as the Pestilence Rider, the argument still fails, because you can't do only HALF of what they taught us in Leadership School in the Navy.

 

[abaddon]

Means-to-ends benefits, sure. It's still morally unacceptable, though, if your intent is retributive, as is the case here. If your intent is to get them to do something, it's usually still immoral, though it might not be under some circumstances. But clearly that is not the case here, even if it were a means to an end. If it's a means to an end, the reason has to be to prevent something much worse. But Yahweh could prevent it by means of his own power. Easily. Or by targeting the specific individuals, given his power. So, targeting others would never be justifiable for him, even as a means to an end.

Example: Yahweh actually shows his powers and gives the command: do not have same-sex sex, or else I will punish you.


A couple of points: ...

I don't know why atheists do this. It's like trying to rationally analyze a dream -- 'but, if it were me, I would have made the dream go like this instead". You either think like the dream thinks (at a pre-rational level) or you're totally on the outside saying few relevant things about it.

You're talking about atavists that take the myths of an ancient tribe for eternal truths. The mythology is an unconsciously evolved system. And the basic point of that system is that the whole tribe must sustain a good relation with nonhuman nature (as represented by spirits, gods or God) or they all face extinction. Nature's a great force of chaos held in check by God, on condition that everyone obeys the taboos. Even one sinner affronts the gods and the failure to quickly set things right can unleash the chaos (which is the nature of nature) that they're trying to hold back by observing taboos and performing their rites.

"God is angry at us! That's why he has sent this pestilence!" works to get a revival (and purges of sinners and heretics) going. They keep order between "the people" and an inhuman nature that's run by spirits this way. In this case, it's about how to sustain the tribe with baby-production, so no fucky-fucky buttholes.

 

[Keith&Co.]

I don't know why atheists do this. It's like trying to rationally analyze a dream -- 'but, if it were me, I would have made the dream go like this instead". You either think like the dream thinks (at a pre-rational level) or you're totally on the outside saying few relevant things about it.

I dunno. The story has to make sense if we're to accept it.
The Believers accept it, first, then bend over backwards to justify it in the face of contradictions.

We just treat it like a movie plot or a TV Mystery. We don't have to automatically accept it, it's not our job to justify it, we enjoy seeing if it's anywhere near as logical as the apologists will insist that it is.

We don't accept the story you're telling us about the omnipotent being because surely omnipotence would allow an instant fix to the problem, your solution is far too complicated and depends on too many fucking idiots doing the exact wrong or uncharacteristic thing to get the same result."

To me, it's the same instinct when my kids lied to me. It's not enough to say, "I know you're lying" and discipline them. I had to point out how i knew they lied, why their story wasn't internally consistent or violated known laws of physics or did not explain the motivation of the sock-footed ninja cookie stealer.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Well, yes, of course. But that only works when you're talking about an omniscient, omnipotent God.
When the apologists start defending the actions they attribute to God, they tend to reduce him to a father figure, or an office manager. Basically, a middle-level human writ large, for as long as they need his omni-stuff to be limited.

Hmm...that's not what the ones I have encountered usually do. In my experience, they usually claim that Yahweh is omnimax (i.e., omniscient, omnipotent, morally perfect), but that he behaves in the way you describes - which they consider just. I'm saying that that would not be just.

I was just trying to point out that even if you do take a limited-power-human approach to justify the actions of this god-figure acting as the Pestilence Rider, the argument still fails, because you can't do only HALF of what they taught us in Leadership School in the Navy.

Okay, though I was saying that even all of it would not work in his case.
Regarding Leadership School in the US Navy, I take it (but let me know if that's not so) you are talking about groups of people who have agree to the rules of their own free will, right? That includes the rule that they all get punished if one is late. It looks like a bad rule, but again, they agreed to it. Would that be done to draftees as well? (i.e., would they be punished for the actions of someone they can't control?).

 

[Angra Mainyu]

I don't know why atheists do this. It's like trying to rationally analyze a dream -- 'but, if it were me, I would have made the dream go like this instead". You either think like the dream thinks (at a pre-rational level) or you're totally on the outside saying few relevant things about it.

The religionists who make these claims are not saying it's a dream. They are making public claims that are unwarranted, false, and disparaging against people who do not deserve to be so condemned. It's okay to debunk the claims and/or arguments of the religionists, in order to expose some or all of their shortcomings (perhaps in the eyes of less extreme religionists), and/or just because they deserve it.

You're talking about atavists that take the myths of an ancient tribe for eternal truths.

I'm talking about them, but not to them. Well, I sometimes talk to them (not often anymore) but that's more of a way of a convenient way of making arguments, while my actual intended audience are readers who are not part of the group, or at most group members who have doubts.

 

[steve_bank]

Beliefs are one thing. Peole who say these kinds of things have a perverted, twisted, sick view of reality.

I heard a commentator say the fearmongering around the virus speeds just like the virus.

This Kimd of religious insanity is a communicable disease.

 

[ideologyhunter]

It's reliably there, as the other side of group cohesiveness, family atmosphere, The Beloved Community: looking down on the people who live on the other side of the hill. The ones our god's gonna get. (Or worse, as in countless Bible verses, the ones our god gives us the duty to persecute.)

 

[ronburgundy]

If anything, religious leaders have helped the virus spread by promoting the general anti-science attitudes, and disposition to make up nonsense to dismiss facts that is inherent to the faith required to maintain their absurd beliefs.

 

[steve_bank]

I ended up in a conversation with a Mormon onin my building. She is truly fearful the virus is a plague harbinger of the apocalypses. She referenced Revelations.

I pointed out there have always been plagues, famines, droughts, storm's and earthquakes. She walked away.

 

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

A muslim work colleague the other night was telling anybody who would listen that the virus is a punishment from god. His god, of course, not one of those other, fake gods. To support his claim, he gloated about the fact that all the "night clubs, gay bars and strip joints" are closed because of the pandemic. He seemed kinda stumped, though, when I pointed out that all the churches, mosques and synagogues are closed, too.

 

[ronburgundy]

A muslim work colleague the other night was telling anybody who would listen that the virus is a punishment from god. His god, of course, not one of those other, fake gods. To support his claim, he gloated about the fact that all the "night clubs, gay bars and strip joints" are closed because of the pandemic. He seemed kinda stumped, though, when I pointed out that all the churches, mosques and synagogues are closed, too.

Sadly, all the churches are not closed. Many are holding services, some with hundreds of people. Some are doing it against the government orders, some with full consent of their state governments who are given explicit exemptions to churches in direct violation of the 1st Amendment.

Of course, I've hear of no gay bars violating the law and putting others at risk to stay open. Which only shows that as a group, gay bar owners are more ethical than Christian pastors.

 

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

A muslim work colleague the other night was telling anybody who would listen that the virus is a punishment from god. His god, of course, not one of those other, fake gods. To support his claim, he gloated about the fact that all the "night clubs, gay bars and strip joints" are closed because of the pandemic. He seemed kinda stumped, though, when I pointed out that all the churches, mosques and synagogues are closed, too.

Sadly, all the churches are not closed. Many are holding services, some with hundreds of people. Some are doing it against the government orders, some with full consent of their state governments who are given explicit exemptions to churches in direct violation of the 1st Amendment.

Of course, I've hear of no gay bars violating the law and putting others at risk to stay open. Which only shows that as a group, gay bar owners are more ethical than Christian pastors.

Here in the Netherlands, all places of worship are closed, as gatherings of more than 3 people are banned. I realise that there are other places where scofflaws do what they like, but we were talking about this country.

You're right about the comparative ethicalness (ethicality? ethicitude? whatever) of the gay bar owners. At least, unlike the xian pastors, they sell a tangible product and not some ethereal promise of "jam tomorrow".

 

[SLD]

I truly don’t understand these people's brains. It should be painfully obvious to even the most casual observer that these various calamities strike people randomly regardless of their religious faith. Even the Bible makes this clear. The book of Job is the best example. Job is not a sinner but he loses everything. When he complains to god, god says who the fuck are you? I made the universe and you’re nothing, you should be grateful just to have lived in it for whatever time I give you. Now fuck off.

That’s a god I can respect!

Then some asshole changed the story and added the stupid ending where Job gets everything back.

But these fucking Christians can’t handle that basic truth today. They’ve got to find the scapegoat (also biblical). Once upon a time it was Donatists, then other heretics, then Protestants, or Catholics. Then deists, then atheists. Now it’s gays. And atheists still. It’s always been jews and anyone of color.

Fuck these assholes.

SLD

 

[Politesse]

Your first mistake is thinking that Christians might perhaps read the Bible; they mostly have it read to them, and there's a big difference.