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Iran does not deny shooting down the drone. They presented obviously false evidence it was over their territory when it was shot down. Thus, despite the fact that I wouldn't believe His Flatulence as far as I could throw him I conclude Iran really did it. This wasn't one of the little drones, either, but a strategic recon drone--a very pricey bird.

Of course they don't deny it, and if you're going to claim "obviously false evidence" you'd have to back that up.

The video has already been identified as being old. They just grabbed video that showed what they wanted and claimed it was of the drone shootdown.

Yes, it's a surveillance drone. Chances that US surveillance drones are not penetrating Iranian airspace, and are instead dutifully patrolling international waters? Slim to none. Especially when one considers that there's an element in the regime - the American one, not Iran - that is openly itching for war. Trump's National Security Advisor has been advocating war with Iran for decades, and is one of the architects of the "Don't have an excuse? Then make one up" strategy which led us into Iraq.

The drone was looking at tanker attacks--stuff that was happening in international waters. The best place for the drone is thus in international waters.
 
There's no moral right to make people fulfill their legal obligations?
No - unless those obligations are moral in themselves, in which case the moral right exists whether or not their obligations are legal ones. Unjust laws are fairly common - and there's no moral right to make people fulfil obligations that unjust law imposes upon them.
It is a two-way street. Iran has gotten plenty of help developing its civilian nuclear program. Mostly from Russia and Western Europe, but that satisfies the treaty. The NPT doesn't require every single nuclear-weapons state to help every single non-nuclear-weapons state.

The cancellation of the deal brokered by the Obama administration represents a breach of that treaty by the USA.
You say that as though the NPT depends on the Obama deal. The NPT is a treaty commitment to the entire world, minus the half-dozen-odd countries that haven't signed on. It doesn't go away just because two member countries have a falling out.
True; But equally it is not for a single nation that has fallen out with another signatory to enforce.

If the US has a problem with Iranian compliance (or non-compliance) with the NPT, that justifies a complaint to the UN; perhaps even a proposal in the UN to take military action. But it doesn't justify unilateral military action by the US against Iran.
In any event, the Obama deal only existed in the first place because Iran had already breached the NPT.

everyone in the world has a moral right to restrict ownership of nuclear weapons by gangs of criminals.
Perhaps - but they don't have the right to military action on the basis of suspicion alone (and bear in mind that Iran is talking about low enrichment; They are not (yet) making weapons grade material, nor are they likely to be able to do so in the short to medium term. If stopping gangs of criminals from having nukes is your thing, there are several such gangs who should be ahead of Iran's government on your list. The DPRK is one; China is probably another; And Pakistan too. All are actually in possession of nukes, and none have governments that are noticeably more legitimate than Iran's.
That's a genuine moral right - but not a point of difference between the USA and Iran. Hence my charge of hypocrisy.
What's your point? Hey, you want to accuse the U.S. government of hypocrisy, knock yourself out. If you ever come across a government that isn't hypocritical, let the world know miracles are real. And if you want to argue that our government is a criminal gang too and others have a moral right to stop the U.S. from having nuclear weapons, I won't dispute it. But those claims hardly support your contention. What, does being a hypocrite and/or a criminal mean you lose the right to stop other criminals from their wrongdoing? What kind of morality is that?

Theocratic [bad places] with illegitimate governments in power through electoral manipulation should not have nuclear weapons. But the US does have them, nevertheless.
... and has the moral right to restrict ownership of nuclear weapons by Iran, nevertheless.

I am unconvinced. It seems to me that nuclear armed diplomacy is polite diplomacy. People tend not to engage in serious military conflicts against nuclear armed nations. Even India and Pakistan have been keeping their skirmishes in Kashmir down to a dull roar since they obtained nukes.

The Iranian regime is far from being ideal - or even from being tolerable. But they're also far from the worst - even amongst the short list of those nations with nuclear weapons or the clear intention to obtain them.

There may, at some point, be an action by Iran that justifies a US military strike, or even outright war. But their pursuit of nuclear weapons isn't it. And nor is their shooting down of an unmanned drone.

If war is the continuation of diplomacy by other means, then the spat between the US and Iran is still firmly in the diplomatic phase, and to jump straight to war, without exhausting the diplomatic option, on the basis of a nuclear weapons program that is at least as justified as that of Israel, and rather more so than that of North Korea; or on the basis of the destruction of a fairly expensive bit of technology, is immoral.

The US should ask Iran to pay for the drone (and IMO the smart response from Iran would be to pay in crude oil). Then they should attempt to reinstate the deal done by Obama, which was effectively hobbling the Iranian nuclear program, by making the pursuit of a weapon by Iran both more costly, and less urgent.

Iran only wants nuclear weapons for self defence (unless the regime is suicidal). I see no moral reason to deny them that defence - particularly given the current aggressively hostile attitude of the USA.

Nobody (other than the USA and perhaps the UK) is in any doubt that first use of nuclear weapons would provoke a massive response from the USA. It seems to me that nukes serve to safeguard countries against invasion; And that absent an existential threat from an invading force, the only nation on Earth that would even consider their first use is the US herself.

The mullahs are bad; Some may even be mad. But they're not suicidal.
 
Lets look more carefully at those incidents you are comparing this to.

1) Neither side ever sent armed aircraft into the other's airspace. (Subs, yes, because it's not so simple to send them out without weapons.)

2) Neither side ever fired on a craft that wasn't within it's own space.

Both sides were very careful to keep incidents under control. Shooting down this drone is going well beyond anything that happened in the cold war.

No, it's not. Neither the Soviets nor the Cubans infringed US territorial waters in 1962; But the US used the threat of force against Soviet vessels in international waters to prevent the placing of weapons close to (but outside) US territory.

I was talking about the whole cold war, not merely the Cuban Missile Crisis. Both sides sent unarmed aircraft over the others' territory, neither side sent armed aircraft. Nobody ever shot at any craft not in their territorial waters, although there was a lot of harassment in both directions and accidents did happen. (See, for example, the plane that got hit near Hong Kong. That was harassment by an insufficiently skilled pilot who clipped his target rather than buzzing it.)

The drone was an armed US military asset, within close striking distance of Iranian targets. Their use of force to discourage such provocative placement of enemy forces is justified by that precedent.

And why do you think it was armed? It's been identified as a strategic recon drone, not a hunter-killer drone. You don't arm recon craft.
 
Shooting down this drone is going well beyond anything that happened in the cold war.

Certainly well beyond a Soviet missile downing a U2 during the Cuban Missile Crisis. #sarcasm

The U2 was where it wasn't allowed to be. Both sides knew we had been caught cheating and the shoot-down was proper. Make noise about it but there would not be further military action by either side.

This, however, was taking a shot at a craft in international airspace. That's a whole different thing and a clear causus belli.
 
2) Neither side ever fired on a craft that wasn't within it's own space.
We don't know where UAV was during the incident. It's still "she said, he said" situation.

No, it's not. Iran has presented fake evidence of where it was. That says the US position was the accurate one.

And US did try to sink soviet sub with nukes outside their waters, which was way more dangerous and irresponsible than shooting anything in airspace ever.

[Citation needed]
 
Shooting down this drone is going well beyond anything that happened in the cold war.

Certainly well beyond a Soviet missile downing a U2 during the Cuban Missile Crisis. #sarcasm

The U2 was where it wasn't allowed to be. Both sides knew we had been caught cheating and the shoot-down was proper. Make noise about it but there would not be further military action by either side.

This, however, was taking a shot at a craft in international airspace. That's a whole different thing and a clear causus belli.

No it's not. To be a clear causus belli, the shooting down would have had to at the very least risk the life of US military personnel. Unarmed drones are just property. If someone destroys your property, you have the right to demand that they pay to replace it. You don't have the right to attack them.
 
No, it's not. Iran has presented fake evidence of where it was.
Says who?
That says the US position was the accurate one.
LOL, no it does not.
And US did try to sink soviet sub with nukes outside their waters, which was way more dangerous and irresponsible than shooting anything in airspace ever.

[Citation needed]
Come on, you should know that. OK, wiki says US NAVY tried to force soviet sub to surface but russians thought they were under attack and were about to launch their nuke.
 
Says who?

LOL, no it does not.
And US did try to sink soviet sub with nukes outside their waters, which was way more dangerous and irresponsible than shooting anything in airspace ever.

[Citation needed]
Come on, you should know that. OK, wiki says US NAVY tried to force soviet sub to surface but russians thought they were under attack and were about to launch their nuke.

Did the Russian captain have a scottish accent?
 
Says who?

LOL, no it does not.

Come on, you should know that. OK, wiki says US NAVY tried to force soviet sub to surface but russians thought they were under attack and were about to launch their nuke.

Did the Russian captain have a scottish accent?
No, he spoke russian and submarine was ordinary not nuclear, it just had nuclear torpedo.
 
The U2 was where it wasn't allowed to be. Both sides knew we had been caught cheating and the shoot-down was proper. Make noise about it but there would not be further military action by either side.

This, however, was taking a shot at a craft in international airspace. That's a whole different thing and a clear causus belli.

No it's not. To be a clear causus belli, the shooting down would have had to at the very least risk the life of US military personnel. Unarmed drones are just property. If someone destroys your property, you have the right to demand that they pay to replace it. You don't have the right to attack them.

A causus belli has no requirement that anyone be harmed. It has no requirement that a shot even be fired. You can have a causus belli with words alone--the declaration of a blockade is a causus belli.
 
Says who?

LOL, no it does not.
And US did try to sink soviet sub with nukes outside their waters, which was way more dangerous and irresponsible than shooting anything in airspace ever.

[Citation needed]
Come on, you should know that. OK, wiki says US NAVY tried to force soviet sub to surface but russians thought they were under attack and were about to launch their nuke.

Which means the Russians don't know the normal conventions. A shot across the bow is not an attack. (In the case of a sub it's a depth charge dropped in their path but well in front of their position.)
 
The U2 was where it wasn't allowed to be. Both sides knew we had been caught cheating and the shoot-down was proper. Make noise about it but there would not be further military action by either side.

This, however, was taking a shot at a craft in international airspace. That's a whole different thing and a clear causus belli.

No it's not. To be a clear causus belli, the shooting down would have had to at the very least risk the life of US military personnel. Unarmed drones are just property. If someone destroys your property, you have the right to demand that they pay to replace it. You don't have the right to attack them.

A causus belli has no requirement that anyone be harmed. It has no requirement that a shot even be fired. You can have a causus belli with words alone--the declaration of a blockade is a causus belli.

I even bolded the critical word in my post; And yet you ignored it completely. :rolleyes:

Nobody cares about Loren Pechtel's unwritten rules of international diplomacy. Going to war is a messy business, in which misunderstandings (including deliberate misunderstandings) and mistakes are common.

Only an idiot wants a war so much as to take a needlessly broad view of what constitutes a clear causus belli.

Unfortunately there's no world shortage of idiots.
 
It was a personal reprisal. You attacked me first, Mr. "This is disingenuous to put it mildly.".

That was a criticism of your argument, not you.
:facepalm:

"Disingenuous" is a property of people, not arguments. If you sincerely do not intend to attack people with it, then delete it from your vocabulary.

disingenuous ADJECTIVE not really honest or sincere, and only pretending to be​

Source
 
Says who?

LOL, no it does not.

Come on, you should know that. OK, wiki says US NAVY tried to force soviet sub to surface but russians thought they were under attack and were about to launch their nuke.

Which means the Russians don't know the normal conventions. A shot across the bow is not an attack. (In the case of a sub it's a depth charge dropped in their path but well in front of their position.)
No, it means americans failed to put themselves in other guys shoes and predict result of their actions, plus failed to consider that other guy had a nuke. It's very common affliction in US, when you think the whole world is basically the same as US.
In any case they did not use that "convention" which you most likely just made up after rewatching "Red October"
 
A causus belli has no requirement that anyone be harmed. It has no requirement that a shot even be fired. You can have a causus belli with words alone--the declaration of a blockade is a causus belli.

I even bolded the critical word in my post; And yet you ignored it completely. :rolleyes:

Nobody cares about Loren Pechtel's unwritten rules of international diplomacy. Going to war is a messy business, in which misunderstandings (including deliberate misunderstandings) and mistakes are common.

Only an idiot wants a war so much as to take a needlessly broad view of what constitutes a clear causus belli.

Unfortunately there's no world shortage of idiots.

Bolding that word doesn't mean I'm not following the rules.

Consider the real world example, the Egyptian blockade of the Straits of Tiran was the casus belli of the 1967 war.
 
There's no moral right to make people fulfill their legal obligations?
No - unless those obligations are moral in themselves, in which case the moral right exists whether or not their obligations are legal ones. Unjust laws are fairly common - and there's no moral right to make people fulfil obligations that unjust law imposes upon them.
The NPT is an unjust law? Iran didn't have to join. It could have made like India and developed nuclear technology on its own. But it's easier to make a promise, obtain the rewards being offered in exchange for that promise, and then renege. Is that just?

The NPT is a treaty commitment to the entire world, minus the half-dozen-odd countries that haven't signed on. It doesn't go away just because two member countries have a falling out.
True; But equally it is not for a single nation that has fallen out with another signatory to enforce.

If the US has a problem with Iranian compliance (or non-compliance) with the NPT, that justifies a complaint to the UN; perhaps even a proposal in the UN to take military action.
I.e., finger wagging and no enforcement at all.

But it doesn't justify unilateral military action by the US against Iran.
According to what criterion for "justify"? Legally? Do we have a treaty obligation not to enforce treaties unilaterally? Morally? There's an excellent chance an invasion would do more harm than good, sure; but since we don't know how many people Iran will kill with a nuclear weapon if it gets one, the error bars on the moral calculation are large. In any event, there are military responses intermediate between sanctions and invasion. The obvious being introducing a virus into their centrifuges, assassinating key people making them weapons*, and blowing up their nuclear facilities.

(* During WWII the U.S. sent a secret agent to find out how close Heisenberg was to building a bomb, and shoot him if he was close. The agent found out he wasn't close.)

If stopping gangs of criminals from having nukes is your thing, there are several such gangs who should be ahead of Iran's government on your list. The DPRK is one; China is probably another; And Pakistan too. All are actually in possession of nukes, and none have governments that are noticeably more legitimate than Iran's.
"My thing"? We're debating the U.S.'s moral right, not the priorities I should have when I'm appointed National Security Adviser. Besides which, China and Pakistan aren't breaching the NPT. Besides which, which criminal gangs the U.S. prioritizes dealing with must inevitably depend on expedience and not just moral abstractions.

... and has the moral right to restrict ownership of nuclear weapons by Iran, nevertheless.

I am unconvinced. It seems to me that nuclear armed diplomacy is polite diplomacy. People tend not to engage in serious military conflicts against nuclear armed nations. Even India and Pakistan have been keeping their skirmishes in Kashmir down to a dull roar since they obtained nukes.

The Iranian regime is far from being ideal - or even from being tolerable. But they're also far from the worst - even amongst the short list of those nations with nuclear weapons or the clear intention to obtain them.

There may, at some point, be an action by Iran that justifies a US military strike, or even outright war. But their pursuit of nuclear weapons isn't it. And nor is their shooting down of an unmanned drone.

If war is the continuation of diplomacy by other means, then the spat between the US and Iran is still firmly in the diplomatic phase, and to jump straight to war, without exhausting the diplomatic option, on the basis of a nuclear weapons program that is at least as justified as that of Israel,
[digression]Huh? What's unjustified about Israel's? Real democracy; not a signatory to the NPT; surrounded by enemies with (collectively) a conventional military advantage; well-founded fear of genocide.[/digression]

and rather more so than that of North Korea; or on the basis of the destruction of a fairly expensive bit of technology, is immoral.
Certainly the drone isn't grounds for war. (We could always vandalize some Iranian property for revenge, but knowing us we'd probably use a cruise missile worth more than whatever we destroy with it.)

Then they should attempt to reinstate the deal done by Obama, which was effectively hobbling the Iranian nuclear program, by making the pursuit of a weapon by Iran both more costly, and less urgent.
I think we can take it as read that Obama was better at this than Trump. But that isn't the issue -- that there are more prudent responses than attack doesn't mean we have no right to stop them acquiring a weapon.

Iran only wants nuclear weapons for self defence (unless the regime is suicidal). I see no moral reason to deny them that defence - particularly given the current aggressively hostile attitude of the USA.

Nobody (other than the USA and perhaps the UK) is in any doubt that first use of nuclear weapons would provoke a massive response from the USA.
What's to stop Iran from building a nuclear weapon, giving it to terrorists who use it, and afterwards claiming the terrorists got it from Pakistan or North Korea? Iran has a long history of pursuing its foreign policy through disavowable intermediaries. Would we still invade Iran even if we didn't know who'd supplied the weapon?

It seems to me that nukes serve to safeguard countries against invasion; And that absent an existential threat from an invading force, the only nation on Earth that would even consider their first use is the US herself.

The mullahs are bad; Some may even be mad. But they're not suicidal.
I read an interview with a Pakistani general who fully expected an eventual nuclear exchange with India, was okay with that, and thought Pakistan had a fair chance of winning, especially if it struck first. I hope you're right that the mullahs are not that suicidal. But you can't count on high government officials not to be suicidal.
 
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