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Rep. Gosar Faces Censure for AOC Murder Video, Refuses to Apologize. Sister Calls Him a "Sociopath."


I'm sure you've all heard the background on this. Rep Gosar's people took an anime video, from Attack on Titan series and put AOC's face on a monster, Biden's face on another, and Gosar's face on another. In the series, the heros are normal sized people and the "monsters" are huge and have to be killed by swords to the back of neck, generally. So, Gosar murders them.

In the worst way this is worded, it's worded that Gosar is making death threats. This just isn't true literally and technically. HOWEVER, given the current climate and how people tried an insurrection and how some people take this shit seriously and those people are fans of Gosar, he's increasing the culture of death threats and "coolness" of this sort of thing. He has privileges and rights. No rights should be removed for his offensive free speech, but perhaps someone could take a look at the privileges he enjoys in the workplace, like committee memberships. I don't have a problem with that.

These are just my opinions.

Next, the main reason I made this thread is that I was shocked he had siblilngs that say he is an incompetent sociopath or something similar anyway. Watch the video.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
I can't wait for the GOP to get control of the House again and censure Democrats for waking up in the morning because they censured a guy who posted crappy videos involving the killing of a sitting US Representative and attack on the sitting US President.

Anyone remember how upset people were when the castle in Game of Thrones had a beheaded George W Bush? And that was in no way a symbol wanting to harm the President, more a cheap gag, and it wasn't produced by anyone in Congress.
 

laughing dog

Contributor
Given the history of the use of censure in Congress, I don't think Mr. Gosar's video merits his censure. I suspect Mr. Gosar is a class one asshole even by Congressional standards which helped push this to the end.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Given the history of the use of censure in Congress, I don't think Mr. Gosar's video merits his censure. I suspect Mr. Gosar is a class one asshole even by Congressional standards which helped push this to the end.
I'll give you that social media postings have rarely been the basis of censures in the past couple hundred years. ;)

If this were in a bubble, then fine... distasteful and rude. But we are in a volatile state at the moment. We had a burned out Bernie Sanders supporter nearly massacre (didn't due to bad shooting, not because he didn't fire enough bullets) a Republican outing. Ocasio Cortez has a particularly notable hate following. And a video like this can become a catalyst. We need fewer catalysts, not another Rep. Giffords. And the GOP leadership is continuing to show less and less restraint on pulling back on this behavior.
 

laughing dog

Contributor
Given the history of the use of censure in Congress, I don't think Mr. Gosar's video merits his censure. I suspect Mr. Gosar is a class one asshole even by Congressional standards which helped push this to the end.
I'll give you that social media postings have rarely been the basis of censures in the past couple hundred years. ;)

If this were in a bubble, then fine... distasteful and rude. But we are in a volatile state at the moment. We had a burned out Bernie Sanders supporter nearly massacre (didn't due to bad shooting, not because he didn't fire enough bullets) a Republican outing. Ocasio Cortez has a particularly notable hate following. And a video like this can become a catalyst. We need fewer catalysts, not another Rep. Giffords. And the GOP leadership is continuing to show less and less restraint on pulling back on this behavior.
I agree but IMO this escalates the kneejerk partisanship. No one in their right mind would think this is an actual death threat. It was a stupid, offensive and juvenile stunt worthy of a junior high school dumbass.

A reprimand would more fit the bill for that at the time, one off event.
 

ZiprHead

Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
Given the history of the use of censure in Congress, I don't think Mr. Gosar's video merits his censure. I suspect Mr. Gosar is a class one asshole even by Congressional standards which helped push this to the end.
The reason for the censure was that he used congressional persons on his staff to create the video then posted it on his official congressional account. If he had not done so, there would be no censure.

Although i'm sure it would still have caused an uproar.
 

Politesse

Sapere aude
Kathy Griffin, anyone?
Wasn't a legislator, as I recall, and faced a fairly vicious backlash from her "own side", unlike Representative Gosar. But yes, our society is in a phase of increasing political violence, and that isn't attributable to one faction alone.
 

Gun Nut

Veteran Member
Given the history of the use of censure in Congress, I don't think Mr. Gosar's video merits his censure. I suspect Mr. Gosar is a class one asshole even by Congressional standards which helped push this to the end.
I'll give you that social media postings have rarely been the basis of censures in the past couple hundred years. ;)

If this were in a bubble, then fine... distasteful and rude. But we are in a volatile state at the moment. We had a burned out Bernie Sanders supporter nearly massacre (didn't due to bad shooting, not because he didn't fire enough bullets) a Republican outing. Ocasio Cortez has a particularly notable hate following. And a video like this can become a catalyst. We need fewer catalysts, not another Rep. Giffords. And the GOP leadership is continuing to show less and less restraint on pulling back on this behavior.
I agree but IMO this escalates the kneejerk partisanship. No one in their right mind would think this is an actual death threat. It was a stupid, offensive and juvenile stunt worthy of a junior high school dumbass.

A reprimand would more fit the bill for that at the time, one off event.
That what he got. A reprimand is called a censure. He is grounded for a week and can't go play with his friends until he has learned his lesson (removed from current committees)
 

laughing dog

Contributor
Given the history of the use of censure in Congress, I don't think Mr. Gosar's video merits his censure. I suspect Mr. Gosar is a class one asshole even by Congressional standards which helped push this to the end.
I'll give you that social media postings have rarely been the basis of censures in the past couple hundred years. ;)

If this were in a bubble, then fine... distasteful and rude. But we are in a volatile state at the moment. We had a burned out Bernie Sanders supporter nearly massacre (didn't due to bad shooting, not because he didn't fire enough bullets) a Republican outing. Ocasio Cortez has a particularly notable hate following. And a video like this can become a catalyst. We need fewer catalysts, not another Rep. Giffords. And the GOP leadership is continuing to show less and less restraint on pulling back on this behavior.
I agree but IMO this escalates the kneejerk partisanship. No one in their right mind would think this is an actual death threat. It was a stupid, offensive and juvenile stunt worthy of a junior high school dumbass.

A reprimand would more fit the bill for that at the time, one off event.
According to this site - Congressional Discipline of Members - censure is the intermediate step between a reprimand (the lowest) and explulsion (the highest form of discipline).
 

zorq

Veteran Member
I agree but IMO this escalates the kneejerk partisanship. No one in their right mind would think this is an actual death threat. It was a stupid, offensive and juvenile stunt worthy of a junior high school dumbass.

A reprimand would more fit the bill for that at the time, one off event.
We can't even get Gossar or the Republicans to admit that it was "offensive and juvenile". There is no remorse. That increases the severity of the offense. That is certainly one of the factors judges consider when sentencing criminals. Censure is the correct response.

Plus, I disagree with you that the meme can't be consideted a threat. Am I out of my mind?
 
Last edited:

Politesse

Sapere aude
If it isn't intended as a genuine threat, why is Gosar unwilling to say that? Minutes after the censure, he re-tweeted the video. There's no apology, no remorse of any kind involved in his case. And it's obvious he does not intend to leave this as a "one time, one off event". He already has not. He will continue to publically threaten this woman's life until he is entirely obliged to stop doing so, or until one of Trump's loony followers manages to make good on the threat.
 
Personally, like I wrote in the op, I don't think it is a direct threat, like a message "I am going to murder you." It's a juvenile, offensive depiction of cartoon violence happening to a co-worker by another co-worker that could make someone feel threatened due to the imagery but also due to the logical consequences of the imagery, it probably does increase the risks to Biden and AOC. I mean, we had people running around the Capitol looking for Nancy Pelosi and AOC, too, so they could murder them. And the types of people who want to do this are the types of fans of Gosar who completely excuses the attack on the Capitol. So, it's a thing that could increase the violent culture of politics and increase the risks to people like AOC and Biden. It might be fair to call it an indirect threat, maybe.
 

Politesse

Sapere aude
Personally, like I wrote in the op, I don't think it is a direct threat, like a message "I am going to murder you." It's a juvenile, offensive depiction of cartoon violence happening to a co-worker by another co-worker that could make someone feel threatened due to the imagery but also due to the logical consequences of the imagery, it probably does increase the risks to Biden and AOC. I mean, we had people running around the Capitol looking for Nancy Pelosi and AOC, too, so they could murder them. And the types of people who want to do this are the types of fans of Gosar who completely excuses the attack on the Capitol. So, it's a thing that could increase the violent culture of politics and increase the risks to people like AOC and Biden. It might be fair to call it an indirect threat, maybe.
The thing is, normal co-workers aren't also political figures, at constant risk of attempted political violence simply due to the nature of their work. Nor is the "threat" of a politician ever that they will personally murder someone. Unless you're Aaron Burr, this is always, in all times, accomplished through proxies. Because of the very serious ramifications, an incident like this should be therefore treated with more gravity than we would, say, treat a grudge between two workers at the local Burger King. Only, we're actually treating it much less seriously. Because if a Burger King employee had an animated video made of them murdering a co-worker, they would immediately be fired.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Given the history of the use of censure in Congress, I don't think Mr. Gosar's video merits his censure. I suspect Mr. Gosar is a class one asshole even by Congressional standards which helped push this to the end.
I'll give you that social media postings have rarely been the basis of censures in the past couple hundred years. ;)

If this were in a bubble, then fine... distasteful and rude. But we are in a volatile state at the moment. We had a burned out Bernie Sanders supporter nearly massacre (didn't due to bad shooting, not because he didn't fire enough bullets) a Republican outing. Ocasio Cortez has a particularly notable hate following. And a video like this can become a catalyst. We need fewer catalysts, not another Rep. Giffords. And the GOP leadership is continuing to show less and less restraint on pulling back on this behavior.
I agree but IMO this escalates the kneejerk partisanship. No one in their right mind would think this is an actual death threat. It was a stupid, offensive and juvenile stunt worthy of a junior high school dumbass.

A reprimand would more fit the bill for that at the time, one off event.

It isn’t a threat, that’d be a crime. What it does is it has moved this level of discourse to within Congress, and most importantly normalizes this violent trash.

They should be a firewall between this crap and Congress.
 

Patooka

Veteran Member
Kathy Griffin, anyone?
Fcuk you you liberal piece of shit. Katy Griffin was never elected and has never held a position of responsibility! Therefore different standards should apply. What the fuck is wrong with you? Paul Gosar should be held to a different stand than communists like Kathy Griffin and I am offended that you think otherwise!


Wait...you think elected officials with real power and real responsibilities should be held to a higher standard than someone whose best trait can only be described as "typical"?

I'll let Trausti explain how elitist that is and why what you have now is so much sensible.
 

Swammerdami

Squadron Leader
Staff member
I agree but IMO this escalates the kneejerk partisanship. No one in their right mind would think this is an actual death threat. It was a stupid, offensive and juvenile stunt worthy of a junior high school dumbass.

A reprimand would more fit the bill for that at the time, one off event.
We can't even get Gossar or the Republicans to admit that it was "offensive and juvenile". There is no remorse. That increases the severity of the offense. That is certainly one of the factors judges consider when sentencing criminals. Censure is the correct response.

Plus, I disagree with you that the meme can't be conside[r]ed a threat. Am I out of my mind?
I agree with you, so if you're out of your mind, I am too. I am surprised at the other TFTers in the thread — (should we call them Infidels now?) — who think this is a harmless joke that didn't deserve a censure.

It would be nice to return to a pleasanter America where people could make such harmless jokes. But we can't: This is 2021. We live in an America over-run by hate-filled idiots, some of whom will take Gosar's video as a message from Jesus that they should kill AOC. And Gosar knows this.

Remember the 2012 election where Romney reprimanded Repugnants who'd swallowed lies about Obama? Republicans who emulate Romney today are literally kicked out of their Party.

Unlike the Rittenhouse jury we are not bound by rules of evidence. We know Kyle once said he wished he had a gun so he could shoot him some shoplifters. And we know Gosar is a hate-filled right-winger whose own siblings call him a sociopath; a darling of Sheriff Arpaio, and a big name in the Stop the Steal movement. He attends meetings of racist organizations, at one of which he said 'We are in a Civil War, we just haven’t started shooting yet'... So that is about to change."

Frankly I'm shocked and saddened by the support Gosar has in this thread, from posters I thought of as liberalish. If we wait until Kristallnacht before understanding we're in the midst of fascist take-over, we will have waited too long.
 

Politesse

Sapere aude
We've already had a case, in what should not be distant memory, where a similar "joke" was followed less than a year later by an assassination event (in Gosar's home state) which took the lives of six people, including a child. These hardline gun-slinger type Trumpers living out on the desert aren't actually people of great humor; their "jokes" are cruel in the best of times, and the punchline often isn't a joke at all.
 

Ford

Contributor
We've already had a case, in what should not be distant memory, where a similar "joke" was followed less than a year later by an assassination event (in Gosar's home state) which took the lives of six people, including a child. These hardline gun-slinger type Trumpers living out on the desert aren't actually people of great humor; their "jokes" are cruel in the best of times, and the punchline often isn't a joke at all.
I was going to say something like "I hate to say this, but this shit will not stop until we have a mass shooting," but the truth is that this shit will not stop even after we have another one.

Gabby Giffords was a pro-gun blue dog Democrat who was just one of the victims of that horrific event a decade ago. The shooter was mentally ill, and only his defense attorneys would claim him. Now (for obvious reasons) Giffords is a little more in favor of gun control, but the narrative has shifted from "oh god...that lunatic was wrong to shoot up that Safeway parking lot" to "well of course we need to talk about 'second amendment solutions' for liberal Democrats."

We're not quite to the point where Loughner is a hero, but we're inching towards it. Careening, actually. If the shooting happened today, Tucker Carlson would be "just asking questions" about whether or not Gabby "had it coming."
 

laughing dog

Contributor
I agree but IMO this escalates the kneejerk partisanship. No one in their right mind would think this is an actual death threat. It was a stupid, offensive and juvenile stunt worthy of a junior high school dumbass.

A reprimand would more fit the bill for that at the time, one off event.
We can't even get Gossar or the Republicans to admit that it was "offensive and juvenile". There is no remorse. That increases the severity of the offense. That is certainly one of the factors judges consider when sentencing criminals. Censure is the correct response.

Plus, I disagree with you that the meme can't be conside[r]ed a threat. Am I out of my mind?
I agree with you, so if you're out of your mind, I am too. I am surprised at the other TFTers in the thread — (should we call them Infidels now?) — who think this is a harmless joke that didn't deserve a censure.

It would be nice to return to a pleasanter America where people could make such harmless jokes. But we can't: This is 2021. We live in an America over-run by hate-filled idiots, some of whom will take Gosar's video as a message from Jesus that they should kill AOC. And Gosar knows this.

Remember the 2012 election where Romney reprimanded Repugnants who'd swallowed lies about Obama? Republicans who emulate Romney today are literally kicked out of their Party.

Unlike the Rittenhouse jury we are not bound by rules of evidence. We know Kyle once said he wished he had a gun so he could shoot him some shoplifters. And we know Gosar is a hate-filled right-winger whose own siblings call him a sociopath; a darling of Sheriff Arpaio, and a big name in the Stop the Steal movement. He attends meetings of racist organizations, at one of which he said 'We are in a Civil War, we just haven’t started shooting yet'... So that is about to change."

Frankly I'm shocked and saddened by the support Gosar has in this thread, from posters I thought of as liberalish. If we wait until Kristallnacht before understanding we're in the midst of fascist take-over, we will have waited too long.
If you think anyone in this thread is supporting Gosar, you are out of your mind. For centuries,awful people have said all sorts of awful things without actually meaning to carry through with them.

In my view, the over-reaction of the Democrats in Congress plays right into the narrative of their opponents - some of whom they need to persuade for support in elections.
 

Gun Nut

Veteran Member

In my view, the over-reaction of the Democrats in Congress plays right into the narrative of their opponents - some of whom they need to persuade for support in elections.
.. the ability to quote on the new site here is shit.... really makes it difficult...
So I have no idea how this will read.. and if it fails to parse, fuck it, it's the site.

What over-reaction? How is censure an overreaction? what would be a better reaction that is less of a reaction than the finger wave that censure is?? It's like the GoP calls anything calling for accountability an overreaction.. until they wish to make the same argument.. then (cathy giffords' severed trump head, anyone?) it is the worst thing that has ever happened to anyone anywhere ever!
 

laughing dog

Contributor

In my view, the over-reaction of the Democrats in Congress plays right into the narrative of their opponents - some of whom they need to persuade for support in elections.
.. the ability to quote on the new site here is shit.... really makes it difficult...
So I have no idea how this will read.. and if it fails to parse, fuck it, it's the site.

What over-reaction? How is censure an overreaction? what would be a better reaction that is less of a reaction than the finger wave that censure is?? It's like the GoP calls anything calling for accountability an overreaction.. until they wish to make the same argument.. then (cathy giffords' severed trump head, anyone?) it is the worst thing that has ever happened to anyone anywhere ever!
Since 1832, there have been 20 representatives censured in the US House ( List_of_United_States_representatives_expelled,_censured,_or_reprimanded) of which 7 (including Gosar) have come from after the Great Depression. The Wiki link has the names and the offenses. Compare the offenses with Gosar - they are much more tangible and real.
 

Politesse

Sapere aude

In my view, the over-reaction of the Democrats in Congress plays right into the narrative of their opponents - some of whom they need to persuade for support in elections.
.. the ability to quote on the new site here is shit.... really makes it difficult...
So I have no idea how this will read.. and if it fails to parse, fuck it, it's the site.

What over-reaction? How is censure an overreaction? what would be a better reaction that is less of a reaction than the finger wave that censure is?? It's like the GoP calls anything calling for accountability an overreaction.. until they wish to make the same argument.. then (cathy giffords' severed trump head, anyone?) it is the worst thing that has ever happened to anyone anywhere ever!
Since 1832, there have been 20 representatives censured in the US House ( List_of_United_States_representatives_expelled,_censured,_or_reprimanded) of which 7 (including Gosar) have come from after the Great Depression. The Wiki link has the names and the offenses. Compare the offenses with Gosar - they are much more tangible and real.
I'll never understand why conservatives are always posting links without first reading them to make sure they actually concur with their argument. As your link very clearly indicates, the most common category of censures have been on the charge of "unparliamentary language", which Rep. Gosar is very clearly and unashamedly guilty of for this and other incidents. So this incident, in fact, closely mirrors existing precedent. In fact, nearly every current Republican legislator (and quite a few Democrats) are guilty of using unparliamentary language by the traditional definition of that term, which includes among other things openly accusing your political opponents of lying. This behavior has become troublingly common on the House floor this past decade.

The very first use of censure was for "insulting the Speaker of the House." Can you imagine? God I miss the days when some level of decorum was expected of public figures.
 
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jab

Veteran Member

I'm sure you've all heard the background on this. Rep Gosar's people took an anime video, from Attack on Titan series and put AOC's face on a monster, Biden's face on another, and Gosar's face on another. In the series, the heros are normal sized people and the "monsters" are huge and have to be killed by swords to the back of neck, generally. So, Gosar murders them.

In the worst way this is worded, it's worded that Gosar is making death threats. This just isn't true literally and technically. HOWEVER, given the current climate and how people tried an insurrection and how some people take this shit seriously and those people are fans of Gosar, he's increasing the culture of death threats and "coolness" of this sort of thing. He has privileges and rights. No rights should be removed for his offensive free speech, but perhaps someone could take a look at the privileges he enjoys in the workplace, like committee memberships. I don't have a problem with that.

These are just my opinions.

Next, the main reason I made this thread is that I was shocked he had siblilngs that say he is an incompetent sociopath or something similar anyway. Watch the video.
Not literally true, perhaps, but at least like how Sarah Palin ginned things up and got Gabby Giffords shot.
 

ZiprHead

Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
.. the ability to quote on the new site here is shit.... really makes it difficult...
So I have no idea how this will read.. and if it fails to parse, fuck it, it's the site.

You can turn off the wysiwyg editing view by clicking the Toggle BBCode on the upper right. Then the editor looks like it did on TFT.
 

laughing dog

Contributor

In my view, the over-reaction of the Democrats in Congress plays right into the narrative of their opponents - some of whom they need to persuade for support in elections.
.. the ability to quote on the new site here is shit.... really makes it difficult...
So I have no idea how this will read.. and if it fails to parse, fuck it, it's the site.

What over-reaction? How is censure an overreaction? what would be a better reaction that is less of a reaction than the finger wave that censure is?? It's like the GoP calls anything calling for accountability an overreaction.. until they wish to make the same argument.. then (cathy giffords' severed trump head, anyone?) it is the worst thing that has ever happened to anyone anywhere ever!
Since 1832, there have been 20 representatives censured in the US House ( List_of_United_States_representatives_expelled,_censured,_or_reprimanded) of which 7 (including Gosar) have come from after the Great Depression. The Wiki link has the names and the offenses. Compare the offenses with Gosar - they are much more tangible and real.
I'll never understand why conservatives are always posting links without first reading them to make sure they actually concur with their argument. As your link very clearly indicates, the most common category of censures have been on the charge of "unparliamentary language", which Rep. Gosar is very clearly and unashamedly guilty of for this and other incidents. So this incident, in fact, closely mirrors existing precedent. In fact, nearly every current Republican legislator (and quite a few Democrats) are guilty of using unparliamentary language by the traditional definition of that term, which includes among other things openly accusing your political opponents of lying. This behavior has become troublingly common on the House floor this past decade.

The very first use of censure was for "insulting the Speaker of the House." Can you imagine? God I miss the days when some level of decorum was expected of public figures.
Since 1832 there have been 20 censured in the House. Since 1979, there have 7 censured - all for much worse offenses. The last censure for language of any type was in 1921 - 100 years ago. It must be a shock to all those eaters of watercress sandwiches with the crusts removed, but times have fucking changed.
 

Politesse

Sapere aude
I'll never understand why conservatives are always posting links without first reading them to make sure they actually concur with their argument. As your link very clearly indicates, the most common category of censures have been on the charge of "unparliamentary language", which Rep. Gosar is very clearly and unashamedly guilty of for this and other incidents. So this incident, in fact, closely mirrors existing precedent. In fact, nearly every current Republican legislator (and quite a few Democrats) are guilty of using unparliamentary language by the traditional definition of that term, which includes among other things openly accusing your political opponents of lying. This behavior has become troublingly common on the House floor this past decade.

The very first use of censure was for "insulting the Speaker of the House." Can you imagine? God I miss the days when some level of decorum was expected of public figures.
Since 1832 there have been 20 censured in the House. Since 1979, there have 7 censured - all for much worse offenses. The last censure for language of any type was in 1921 - 100 years ago. It must be a shock to all those eaters of watercress sandwiches with the crusts removed, but times have fucking changed.
If you like, but your "evidence" is still nonsense; the only thing I can conclude is that you were hoping no one would actually look at the link.

And "much worse offenses" is a bit subjective, if I may say. Both tax fraud and death threats are illegal, but tax fraud is usually a misdemeanor unless it succeeds in wholesale tax evasion (usually difficult to prove), whereas threatening to kill an elected official is in all cases an actual felony under 18 U.S.C. § 871. More subjectively, I'd be personally feel a lot more comfortable learning that a colleague had committed tax fraud than that they had threatened to murder me. I guess you really love your income taxes? More than your own life? In any case, I disagree with the differential evaluarion of severity that is being proposed.

I do agree that sexual assault of a minor is a more serious crime than threatening to kill an elected official, but at this point our sample size is two, and your claim at that point basically amounts to "unless the offense is as or more serious than the single most serious offense previously censured within the last fifty years, no action should be taken", which I most certainly would not agree to.
 

Swammerdami

Squadron Leader
Staff member
Since 1832 there have been 20 censured in the House. Since 1979, there have 7 censured - all for much worse offenses. The last censure for language of any type was in 1921 - 100 years ago. It must be a shock to all those eaters of watercress sandwiches with the crusts removed, but times have fucking changed.

To compare "apples with apples" look only at cases where the censure vote was not lop-sided. For that we need go back to 1890 when Bynum was censured for "unparliamentary language."
In 1890, Bynum was censured for calling a Republican foe a tyrant and despot — and was censured by the Republican majority for "unparliamentary language". As he walked down the aisle to receive his punishment, the entire Democratic side rose, went down and stood in a solid body with him.
"Tyrant and despot"? That's a compliment compared with the garbage Repugnants routinely sling at any Democrat these days. Doesn't the QOP now routinely substitute "communist" for "left of center"?
 

laughing dog

Contributor
I'll never understand why conservatives are always posting links without first reading them to make sure they actually concur with their argument. As your link very clearly indicates, the most common category of censures have been on the charge of "unparliamentary language", which Rep. Gosar is very clearly and unashamedly guilty of for this and other incidents. So this incident, in fact, closely mirrors existing precedent. In fact, nearly every current Republican legislator (and quite a few Democrats) are guilty of using unparliamentary language by the traditional definition of that term, which includes among other things openly accusing your political opponents of lying. This behavior has become troublingly common on the House floor this past decade.

The very first use of censure was for "insulting the Speaker of the House." Can you imagine? God I miss the days when some level of decorum was expected of public figures.
Since 1832 there have been 20 censured in the House. Since 1979, there have 7 censured - all for much worse offenses. The last censure for language of any type was in 1921 - 100 years ago. It must be a shock to all those eaters of watercress sandwiches with the crusts removed, but times have fucking changed.
If you like, but your "evidence" is still nonsense; the only thing I can conclude is that you were hoping no one would actually look at the link.
History is not nonsense. But your response is.
And "much worse offenses" is a bit subjective, if I may say. Both tax fraud and death threats are illegal, but tax fraud is usually a misdemeanor unless it succeeds in wholesale tax evasion (usually difficult to prove), whereas threatening to kill an elected official is in all cases an actual felony under 18 U.S.C. § 871. More subjectively, I'd be personally feel a lot more comfortable learning that a colleague had committed tax fraud than that they had threatened to murder me. I guess you really love your income taxes? More than your own life? In any case, I disagree with the differential evaluarion of severity that is being proposed.

I do agree that sexual assault of a minor is a more serious crime than threatening to kill an elected official, but at this point our sample size is two, and your claim at that point basically amounts to "unless the offense is as or more serious than the single most serious offense previously censured within the last fifty years, no action should be taken", which I most certainly would not agree to.
Your response is based on a false premise - that Gosar actually threatened to kill an elected official - which makes your analysis nothing more a waste of bandwidth.
 

Politesse

Sapere aude
I'll never understand why conservatives are always posting links without first reading them to make sure they actually concur with their argument. As your link very clearly indicates, the most common category of censures have been on the charge of "unparliamentary language", which Rep. Gosar is very clearly and unashamedly guilty of for this and other incidents. So this incident, in fact, closely mirrors existing precedent. In fact, nearly every current Republican legislator (and quite a few Democrats) are guilty of using unparliamentary language by the traditional definition of that term, which includes among other things openly accusing your political opponents of lying. This behavior has become troublingly common on the House floor this past decade.

The very first use of censure was for "insulting the Speaker of the House." Can you imagine? God I miss the days when some level of decorum was expected of public figures.
Since 1832 there have been 20 censured in the House. Since 1979, there have 7 censured - all for much worse offenses. The last censure for language of any type was in 1921 - 100 years ago. It must be a shock to all those eaters of watercress sandwiches with the crusts removed, but times have fucking changed.
If you like, but your "evidence" is still nonsense; the only thing I can conclude is that you were hoping no one would actually look at the link.
History is not nonsense. But your response is.
And "much worse offenses" is a bit subjective, if I may say. Both tax fraud and death threats are illegal, but tax fraud is usually a misdemeanor unless it succeeds in wholesale tax evasion (usually difficult to prove), whereas threatening to kill an elected official is in all cases an actual felony under 18 U.S.C. § 871. More subjectively, I'd be personally feel a lot more comfortable learning that a colleague had committed tax fraud than that they had threatened to murder me. I guess you really love your income taxes? More than your own life? In any case, I disagree with the differential evaluarion of severity that is being proposed.

I do agree that sexual assault of a minor is a more serious crime than threatening to kill an elected official, but at this point our sample size is two, and your claim at that point basically amounts to "unless the offense is as or more serious than the single most serious offense previously censured within the last fifty years, no action should be taken", which I most certainly would not agree to.
Your response is based on a false premise - that Gosar actually threatened to kill an elected official - which makes your analysis nothing more a waste of bandwidth.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is engaging is colossal intentional ignorance. Who,over the age of five, would not understand what it means when an agressor paints an image of themselves murdering you?
 

laughing dog

Contributor
I'll never understand why conservatives are always posting links without first reading them to make sure they actually concur with their argument. As your link very clearly indicates, the most common category of censures have been on the charge of "unparliamentary language", which Rep. Gosar is very clearly and unashamedly guilty of for this and other incidents. So this incident, in fact, closely mirrors existing precedent. In fact, nearly every current Republican legislator (and quite a few Democrats) are guilty of using unparliamentary language by the traditional definition of that term, which includes among other things openly accusing your political opponents of lying. This behavior has become troublingly common on the House floor this past decade.

The very first use of censure was for "insulting the Speaker of the House." Can you imagine? God I miss the days when some level of decorum was expected of public figures.
Since 1832 there have been 20 censured in the House. Since 1979, there have 7 censured - all for much worse offenses. The last censure for language of any type was in 1921 - 100 years ago. It must be a shock to all those eaters of watercress sandwiches with the crusts removed, but times have fucking changed.
If you like, but your "evidence" is still nonsense; the only thing I can conclude is that you were hoping no one would actually look at the link.
History is not nonsense. But your response is.
And "much worse offenses" is a bit subjective, if I may say. Both tax fraud and death threats are illegal, but tax fraud is usually a misdemeanor unless it succeeds in wholesale tax evasion (usually difficult to prove), whereas threatening to kill an elected official is in all cases an actual felony under 18 U.S.C. § 871. More subjectively, I'd be personally feel a lot more comfortable learning that a colleague had committed tax fraud than that they had threatened to murder me. I guess you really love your income taxes? More than your own life? In any case, I disagree with the differential evaluarion of severity that is being proposed.

I do agree that sexual assault of a minor is a more serious crime than threatening to kill an elected official, but at this point our sample size is two, and your claim at that point basically amounts to "unless the offense is as or more serious than the single most serious offense previously censured within the last fifty years, no action should be taken", which I most certainly would not agree to.
Your response is based on a false premise - that Gosar actually threatened to kill an elected official - which makes your analysis nothing more a waste of bandwidth.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is engaging is colossal intentional ignorance. Who,over the age of five, would not understand what it means when an agressor paints an image of themselves murdering you?
I bow to your demonstrated expertise on intentional ignorance.
 

lpetrich

Contributor
H.Res.789 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Censuring Representative Paul Gosar. | Congress.gov | Library of Congress
"This resolution (1) censures Representative Paul Gosar for posting a certain video on his social media accounts that depicts violence against Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and President Joseph R. Biden, and (2) removes him from the Committee on Natural Resources and the Committee on Oversight and Reform.
Sponsor: Rep. Speier, Jackie [D-CA-14] (Introduced 11/12/2021)
Cosponsors: 123, 60 original, all Democrats

The vote on it: Roll Call 379 | Bill Number: H. Res. 789
D: Y 223
R: Y 2, N 207, P 1, nv 3
Total: Y 225, N 207, P 1, nv 3
The present one was Rep. Joyce OH
The non-voting ones were Reps. Griffith VA, Loudermilk GA, Perry PA

The Republicans who voted yes: Adam Kinzinger IL and Liz Cheney WY
 

lpetrich

Contributor
I checked House Committee on Oversight and Reform and Paul Gosar is gone from it. However, Home | The House Committee on Natural Resources does not look updated.

Why Paul Gosar thinks he is a winner - CNNPolitics
Now look at him. For the base, Gosar is suddenly a hero of free speech and the antidote to Democrats' pursuit of cancel culture and wokeness.

That sentiment was everywhere in the floor debate over Gosar's censure on Wednesday.

"House Democrats have broken nearly every rule and standard in order to silence dissidents and pass their radical agenda," said House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy. Texas Rep. Chip Roy accused Democrats of "chilling debate" with the censure motion. "What scares me most about this is the attack on the freedom of speech from the Left this year," said high profile conservative Rep. Jim Jordan of Ohio.
Seems like they are describing what they would do if they could.

Being stripped of one's committees will make one very ineffective in Congress.
That line of thinking, however, presumes that the goal of a Member of Congress is to, you know get stuff done. That is NOT in fact the goal of Greene and plenty of Republicans elected in the Trump years to the House. Their goal is to be someone -- ideally a major figure on the state television of the right (Fox News), which can lead to lucrative books deals, speaklng engagements and maybe a plum lobbying job when they get out of Congress.
Madison Cawthorn, for instance.
"I have built my staff around comms rather than legislation," wrote Cawthorn -- meaning that he is spending a lot more time and energy on building a communications operation that will get him known outside of the halls of Congress than he is in putting together a staff that can help him actually do the hard work of legislating.
 

lpetrich

Contributor
Paul Gosar said Trump called to support him after being censured for his anime video showing him attacking AOC
noting
This Week With With Gosar

He called himself a victim, supposedly a right-wing no-no.
The radical Left, led by Nancy Pelosi, continued its attack on free speech and marched forward with steadfast determination to cancel anyone who disagrees with their Marxist agenda. Their target this week? Yours truly. Turns out that I am the man the Democrats fear the most. Why? For standing up to the Biden administration’s open border immigration policies and plans to grant amnesty tens of millions of illegal aliens hiding in our country. More on that later in the newsletter.

On Wednesday, House Democrats voted to censure, or more appropriately, censor me because of a silly cartoon depicting the invasion along the southern border and the Left’s dangerous quest for amnesty for millions of lawbreakers. Everyone who actually watched the cartoon knows that it was not real and that there is no actual threat, or even a perceived threat, to anyone. House Democrats, always ready to be triggered by the latest fake offense, never bothered to watch the video. Their minds were made up long before they voted to silence me.

Did you know? I was not allowed a hearing to defend myself. I was not allowed to play the cartoon to the members of Congress, most of whom had never seen it. Thus, they voted on something they hadn’t seen.

...
My entire Republican conference was united in support of me and voted against this political stunt. I am incredibly grateful to Leader McCarthy and everyone who stood up and spoke on my behalf. After the vote, President Trump phoned me to personally thank me for standing up in support of the America First agenda.
 

lpetrich

Contributor
House members decry 'toxic' atmosphere in Congress among lawmakers - CNNPolitics
Many members within the House of Representatives have told CNN in recent days that they find themselves in a toxic work environment, wrought with bitter exchanges, threats and fears about what the erosion of decorum in the chamber will mean for a body that has still not recovered 10 months after the Capitol Hill riot.
While reluctant to mention that it's mostly Republicans doing it, even though it's very evident from the article.
As he took his punishment in the well of the House, he was surrounded by a group of colleagues rushing to his defense. His leadership never came to the floor to admonish him, only attacking the process Democrats were using.

...
As he took his punishment in the well of the House, he was surrounded by a group of colleagues rushing to his defense. His leadership never came to the floor to admonish him, only attacking the process Democrats were using.

Rep. Lauren Boebert, a Republican from Colorado, defended Gosar on the floor by calling some of her progressive Democratic colleagues the "Jihad squad," a term she defended to CNN on Friday.

"It is shocking to me that Leader McCarthy would stand for eight and a half hours spewing disinformation about a bill that is for the American people and yet not speak a word about the atrocity of his own member putting out a video that glorifies the murder of a colleague and threatens violence against the President of the United States," said Rep. Madeleine Dean of Pennsylvania. "I don't know where the next basement is."

...
"January 6th made things so much worse. I was on the floor that day. That was a forever life-changing moment on a personal level, but it was also a moment that changed Congress," Rep. Cheri Bustos, a Democrat from Illinois, told CNN. "It started with the incessant lies that weren't challenged and were amplified to January 6th to a member of Congress threatening lives of friends and colleagues."

...
And those are just the security threats. A massive battle over Covid-19 has only exasperated the divisions. A handful of conservative members regularly defy the House speaker's mask mandate, racking up thousands of dollars in fines while some members publicly admit they aren't getting vaccinated.

In a series of interviews with Republicans, many downplayed the divisions outright or blamed House Speaker Nancy Pelosi for setting the wrong tone when she announced all members would need to walk through metal detectors to get to the House floor after the insurrection.

"I believe it is a consolidation of power in the Speaker's office in the House and an abuse of power by the Speaker because she has one-party control and she is completely shutting down the voices of the minority and hiding behind Covid to accomplish it," Rep. Cathy McMorris Rogers, a Republican from Washington state, told CNN.
Like cops and courts and prisons? Right-wingers often act like they believe that cops and judges and jailers are all vigilantes, even as they go hysterical over any attempts to deprive them of any government money.
 

lpetrich

Contributor
Rep. Chip Roy, a Republican from Texas who advocated ahead of January 6 to certify the electoral college results, told CNN that part of the problem is that members have not moved on from January 6th.

"People here need to get thicker skin," Roy said. "At some point here, you gotta let some things roll."

Asked if he was including the insurrection in the things that people needed to let "roll," Roy said "people here have got to get thicker skin about representing the people and doing their job and not making everything personal on the floor of the House."
He escaped being lynched that day, and many of his fellow Republicans cowered in offices and safe spots as the attacks happened, Republicans likely including CR himself. Now he's seeming like he would have been happy to have been lynched that day.

"Congressman Boebert referred to us as the 'Jihad squad' on the House floor. What that does is it empowers and inspires people who want to do us harm, to actually go and do that harm. She is on the House floor spewing 'Jihad squad,' " Rep. Jamaal Bowman said. "I feel safe, but it is incredibly concerning that she is speaking this way and we have to respond to that in some way."
There isn't anything on the Democratic side, nobody among them saying that many Republicans are in the pay of Vladimir Putin.

AOC:
"It is not just because they dislike me as a person. In fact, I have had many a Republican come to me on the House floor and say 'I tell folks back home that while I don't agree with you, I think you are a quite kind person.' I have had Republicans come up to me after the 6th, one of them even weeping and with guilt over what happened," Ocasio-Cortez said. "So for some ... publicly, this is a performance. But it is also personal because I cannot separate myself from my gender, I cannot separate myself of how I was born, so their hatred of non-White people, their hatred of women is a hatred of me."
Did those R's include Nancy Mace? She cowered in her office, then later accused AOC of drama queening.
 

Jimmy Higgins

Contributor
Since 1832, there have been 20 representatives censured in the US House ( List_of_United_States_representatives_expelled,_censured,_or_reprimanded) of which 7 (including Gosar) have come from after the Great Depression. The Wiki link has the names and the offenses. Compare the offenses with Gosar - they are much more tangible and real.
Man, Rep. Preston resigned and got re-elected almost immediately (less than two moneys) in special election after beating Rep. Sumner. No censure or expulsion for him. I don't know if the historical bar is what we are looking to emulate. ;)

The video is just a video, it isn't a direct threat. So he did not commit a crime, excluding against anime. However, it is an escalation of poor decorum and the GOP reacted with shrugged shoulders. The alt-right is on edge. They think elections are being stolen, evil vaccines are being distributed, etc... This sort of material, especially from an elected Representative adds gas to the fire, and normalizes depicted violence against a sitting representative, and arguably the President.

Nancy Pelosi isn't some wild politician, and it is doubtful she took this up lightly. What Rep. Gosar put forth was grossly unprofessional, and I can see an argument for getting his hand slapped. If you or I did something likewise where we work, do you think that doesn't get the upper brass taking us into their office? I've seen people fired for less.
 

Swammerdami

Squadron Leader
Staff member
The video is just a video, it isn't a direct threat. So he did not commit a crime, excluding against anime.
If he had committed a crime, it should become a police matter. One would like to imagine a higher bar for Member of Congress than just "is not currently serving a term in penitentiary."

Man, Rep. Preston Brooks resigned and got re-elected almost immediately (less than two moneys) in special election after beating Rep. Senator Sumner. No censure or expulsion for him. I don't know if the historical bar is what we are looking to emulate. ;)

This is only the second mention (at this MB) of the  Caning of Charles Sumner since January (when I mentioned it). It deserves to be better known. Someone (lpetrich?) recently compared the present politics to the 1850's just before the Civil War. I agree that there are big similarities. (And important differences: Instead of state-vs-state warfare, expect to see random local attacks based on skin color, or in response to political bumper-stickers.)

In the May 22, 1856 episode, Preston Brooks, Democratic Representative from South Carolina, entered the Senate Chamber and attacked Charles Sumner, Republican Senator from Massachusetts. Brooks pounded Sumner several times on the head with his thick gold-headed gutta-percha cane. This was no playful slap; the first blow blinded and incapacitated Sumner who was then unable to defend himself. Sumner was almost killed, but 3 years later was able to resume his seat in the Senate. The voters of Massachusetts showed their support by re-electing him shortly after the attack, when he was physically unable to vote on their behalf.
William Cullen Bryant of the New York Evening Post, asked, "Has it come to this, that we must speak with bated breath in the presence of our Southern masters?... Are we to be chastised as they chastise their slaves? Are we too, slaves, slaves for life, a target for their brutal blows, when we do not comport ourselves to please them?" Thousands attended rallies in support of Sumner in Boston, Albany, Cleveland, Detroit, New Haven, New York, and Providence. More than a million copies of Sumner's speech were distributed. Two weeks after the caning, Ralph Waldo Emerson described the divide the incident represented: "I do not see how a barbarous community and a civilized community can constitute one state. I think we must get rid of slavery, or we must get rid of freedom."

Conversely, Brooks was praised by Southern newspapers. The Richmond Enquirer editorialized that Sumner should be caned "every morning," praising the attack as "good in conception, better in execution, and best of all in consequences" and denounced "these vulgar abolitionists in the Senate" who "have been suffered to run too long without collars. They must be lashed into submission." Southerners sent Brooks hundreds of new canes in endorsement of his assault. One was inscribed "Hit him again."

By the very next day, news of the attack on Sumner had reached Kansas, epicenter of slavery-vs-freedom violence. On the evening of May 23 my ancestor John Brown responded by directing extrajudicial executions of five ruffians who had been involved in the murders of anti-slavery Kansans. I find it dreadfully ironic that, led by apologists for racism, this great American martyr is often called "crazy" or a "murderer," while the caning of Charles Sumner is almost forgotten.

Let me again plug John Brown, the biography by David S. Reynolds. He points out that both North and South regarded themselves as descendants of Puritans and Cavaliers, and viewed the English Civil War as metaphor for their own conflict.
 

jab

Veteran Member
I'll never understand why conservatives are always posting links without first reading them to make sure they actually concur with their argument. As your link very clearly indicates, the most common category of censures have been on the charge of "unparliamentary language", which Rep. Gosar is very clearly and unashamedly guilty of for this and other incidents. So this incident, in fact, closely mirrors existing precedent. In fact, nearly every current Republican legislator (and quite a few Democrats) are guilty of using unparliamentary language by the traditional definition of that term, which includes among other things openly accusing your political opponents of lying. This behavior has become troublingly common on the House floor this past decade.

The very first use of censure was for "insulting the Speaker of the House." Can you imagine? God I miss the days when some level of decorum was expected of public figures.
Since 1832 there have been 20 censured in the House. Since 1979, there have 7 censured - all for much worse offenses. The last censure for language of any type was in 1921 - 100 years ago. It must be a shock to all those eaters of watercress sandwiches with the crusts removed, but times have fucking changed.
If you like, but your "evidence" is still nonsense; the only thing I can conclude is that you were hoping no one would actually look at the link.
History is not nonsense. But your response is.
And "much worse offenses" is a bit subjective, if I may say. Both tax fraud and death threats are illegal, but tax fraud is usually a misdemeanor unless it succeeds in wholesale tax evasion (usually difficult to prove), whereas threatening to kill an elected official is in all cases an actual felony under 18 U.S.C. § 871. More subjectively, I'd be personally feel a lot more comfortable learning that a colleague had committed tax fraud than that they had threatened to murder me. I guess you really love your income taxes? More than your own life? In any case, I disagree with the differential evaluarion of severity that is being proposed.

I do agree that sexual assault of a minor is a more serious crime than threatening to kill an elected official, but at this point our sample size is two, and your claim at that point basically amounts to "unless the offense is as or more serious than the single most serious offense previously censured within the last fifty years, no action should be taken", which I most certainly would not agree to.
Your response is based on a false premise - that Gosar actually threatened to kill an elected official - which makes your analysis nothing more a waste of bandwidth.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is engaging is colossal intentional ignorance. Who,over the age of five, would not understand what it means when an agressor paints an image of themselves murdering you?
I bow to your demonstrated expertise on intentional ignorance.
So you ironically bow and scrape? so what?
such a video would be a firing offence in most work places.
 
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