• Welcome to the Internet Infidels Discussion Board.

Richard Carrier’s “On the Historicity of Jesus” now out

My take is that there do appear to often be parallels. Beyond that, what can one say? I accept that there is a lot of fiction in the gospels, but it is very hard, imo, to work out whether they are exclusively fiction. They could still be based on a recent, core figure. Or they could not. Remember that a messianic claimant might be likely to do the things a messianic claimant might do, such as do things from the OT (and a LOT of the gospels use the OT for parallels). Messianic claimants often did and do. This is one reason I generally don't draw much from the gospels (or Acts). One also has to be wary of parallelism generally. I sometimes think one could take almost any two religions and write an extensive essay on the parallels, criss-crossing influences and common sources between them, such are the psychological and cultural ways humans operate. That's how you get articles linking Jesus to Buddha/Buddhism, Confucious/Confucianism, etc.

Good point and an important one imo. You could I'm sure , find parallels with quite a number of various historic figures outside religion.

I agree this is important. I think we need to look for tropes and episodes within the Gospels and epistles which are clearly *not* parallels with OT tales, or with other fictional tales from the classical era, such as Homer, or Buddhist scriptures. If there was indeed a historical Jesus Christ, there should at least be some unique stories about him recounted in among the religiously inspired mythical ones, not so?

In the past I've tried to get ones arguing in favor of historicity to say what parts of the NT stories are unique to Jesus, without parallels. But my attempts have normally been met with silence. Even professional theologians have run into this problem; see for instance Sweitzer's Quest for the Historical Jesus. This lack of consensus about Biblical tales that refer only to Jesus, which could not possibly be inspired by some older work, is rather powerful evidence for the mythicist position, I think.
 
From the site ruby links to in post 396-
All of this is just one example of how the author crafted an intricate multi-layered narrative, through the use of literary allusions, which it is clear that the author intended his audience to be able to decipher. This type of complex writing makes it clear that the author is crafting a story - the author is not merely chronicling events or recording anecdotes that he heard from other people. We see this all throughout the Gospel called Mark. The author makes copious use of symbolism, foreshadowing, irony and literary allusion, including foreshadowing through literary allusion. These are all hallmarks which indicate that the author invented this story from whole cloth himself. The narrative of the story we call the Gospel of Mark is clearly crafted with purpose and intent by the author.

Not only that, but much of the story is related to the destruction of the First Jewish-Roman War. The destruction of that war is a pervasive theme throughout the narrative, which means that the narrative can't be based on pre-existing anecdotes about Jesus from 30 CE - 60 CE, because so many of the scenes are based on literary allusions that deal with the war and the destruction of the temple in 70 CE. That the story is really about the war is made evident in the opening lines when the author quotes directly from Malachi and Isaiah 11, both of which deal with destruction brought upon Israel as a punishment from God.

This goes directly against the idea that the author of this story was merely recording some pre-existing collection of anecdotes about Jesus that existed as part of some community-based oral tradition. The way that most scholars today view the Gospels, in particular Mark, is that even if we acknowledge that the writers had no direct knowledge of Jesus, it is assumed that the events they describe in their writing were not at all invented by the writers themselves. The assumption is that the events described in the Gospels are records of some existing narrative. The assumption is that in all of the early writings about Jesus, none of the writers were inventors, that what they wrote down didn't originate in the minds of the writers. The assumption is that all of the Gospel writers were merely recording things that they had heard from other people - that the information came from some outside source.

My position on the Gospel called Mark is that this story was invented out of whole cloth by the author, and it does not reflect any significant oral tradition or pre-existing beliefs about Jesus. I don't think that there was any pre-existing story about Jesus having twelve disciples, being baptized by John the Baptist, healing people, feeding large groups of people, walking on water, throwing merchants out of the temple, being transfigured, being anointed, being betrayed by Judas, being tried, or even any narrative about his crucifixion. I think all of these things are pure inventions by the author of the story we call the Gospel of Mark.

The reason I think that is because all of these scenes in the Gospel called Mark are based on literary allusions, and all of these same scenes in other sources show clear dependence on Mark. This means that everyone else who wrote about these scenes is basing them on the accounts in Mark, which would only happen if there were no other accounts to go by. We know that the accounts in Mark aren't based on any oral tradition, because they are based on literary allusion. And the way that the narrative of Mark is crafted indicates that it can't possibly be some lose collection of pre-existing anecdotes, because the narrative itself fits together like a jigsaw puzzle. The only way that such a narrative can come into existence is through the intentional design of its author. And not only that, so much of the narrative revolves around events that occurred in 70 CE, namely the war and destruction of the temple.

If the narrative of Mark were based on some pre-existing oral tradition or based on accounts of real events that actually happened, then we would expect there to be entirely different independent accounts or independent accounts of these same events, and indeed for millennia it was believed that the four Gospels were evidence of independent accounts of the same sets of events. But now careful study shows us that the opposite is true. Careful study shows us that far from being independent accounts, every other account shows dependence on Mark, which is exactly what we are going to explore next.

Price is commenting on the lack of uniquely personal tales about Jesus-the-person in the earliest Gospel.
 
In the past I've tried to get ones arguing in favor of historicity to say what parts of the NT stories are unique to Jesus, without parallels. But my attempts have normally been met with silence. Even professional theologians have run into this problem; see for instance Sweitzer's Quest for the Historical Jesus.

The Epistles! :)

Oh no. I forgot. Outer Space Jesus. :(

No but seriously, if you looked at any the events in my life, I dare say you could find a parallel with somebody else's. Plus, as I said, when Price attempts to find OT parallels, which does account for a large number, possibly most of the supposed parallels, they often aren't really parallel at all. Ditto for sources of parallels outside christianity and the OT. Beware taking parallelism too far, imo. Just because christians have been doing it for over 2000 years doesn't necessarily amount to a recommendation. :)

Also, the stories are arguably bound to dwell on the 'significant' events, whether they happened or not, because they're steeped in theology.

Jesus going down to the corner shop for bread and coming home with some bread is not likely to get a mention. Oh shit. I just realised my life could parallel Jesus'.
 
Last edited:
Just out of curiosity. Two questions.

The story where Mary bathes Jesus' feet in oil. Is that paralleled anywhere?

Secondly, does anyone know of a good porn video which incorporates this, or just a film which treats it erotically?
 
I agree this is important. I think we need to look for tropes and episodes within the Gospels and epistles which are clearly *not* parallels with OT tales, or with other fictional tales from the classical era, such as Homer, or Buddhist scriptures.

An excellent line of enquiry.

Was Jesus a Buddhist?
http://www.thezensite.com/non_Zen/Was_Jesus_Buddhist.html

The Many Similarities Between Jesus and Buddha
https://owlcation.com/humanities/The-Many-Similarities-Between-Jesus-and-Buddha

The possibility of Buddhist influence in the teachings?

Asoka sent missionaries to many parts of the world, including Alexandria. That was the mid-third century BCE.

There is the case of Zarmarus in the reign of Augustus, immolating himself in the Athenian agora.

I have bumped in to Philo's mention of 'the Therapeutae'. These practitioners of first century Alexandria have been latched upon as 'proto-christians'. But the best supposition (and that it is) I have seen is that this 'cult' was a vestigal remnant of the mission from Asoka, of Theravada monks and nuns, three hundred years later.

So, yes, I would guess that influences could well be folded in. As were Zoroastrian influences, like a lot of the apocalyptic scenes. The Christian conception of the condemned hereafter certainly has little to do with Hellenistic or Hebraic understandings. Hell fits right in the Zoroastrian picture, tho. Perhaps we should thank the three magi for that gift?

BUT WAIT....THERE'S MORE! And, of course, you know that Jesus spent some time in Punjab, right? Some say he even retired there after surviving the crucifiction. Great stuff. Start with Maher Baba and dabble with ALL the speculations. He was a fakir, not a fiction! *ROFL*
 
Last edited:
Just out of curiosity. Two questions.

The story where Mary bathes Jesus' feet in oil. Is that paralleled anywhere?

Secondly, does anyone know of a good porn video which incorporates this, or just a film which treats it erotically?

Closest I can think of is Scorsese's The Last Temptation of Christ, where some liberties with the Gospel stories are taken, not to mention the Kazantzakis novel.

[youtube]qJKxg4p-Alk[/youtube]

When this movie originally came out it was declared pornography by my local government, because it shows a nude Mary Magdalene, so to rent the video I had to go to a porn rental place.

Mores have definitely relaxed around here since then (almost 30 years), and the porn stores have mostly disappeared thanks to the internet.
 
I agree this is important. I think we need to look for tropes and episodes within the Gospels and epistles which are clearly *not* parallels with OT tales, or with other fictional tales from the classical era, such as Homer, or Buddhist scriptures. If there was indeed a historical Jesus Christ, there should at least be some unique stories about him recounted in among the religiously inspired mythical ones, not so?

Thats an idea and at the moment I'd say; even if you were to compare similarities with other beliefs...they are not quite identical. That which does differ in places - not being similar- "on the whole" are still unique characters with distinct identities (for lack of better wording). How much acceptable are these differences between these character beliefs are there to be - to see them as unique?

*edit: Probably why its difficult for Christians to answer (myself included).
In the past I've tried to get ones arguing in favor of historicity to say what parts of the NT stories are unique to Jesus, without parallels. But my attempts have normally been met with silence. Even professional theologians have run into this problem; see for instance Sweitzer's Quest for the Historical Jesus. This lack of consensus about Biblical tales that refer only to Jesus, which could not possibly be inspired by some older work, is rather powerful evidence for the mythicist position, I think.

Personally I've not been asked anything like it myself so now thinking about it- I haven't come across those arguments to make a good enough coment (not as quick as others)- which is a good question by the way. I suppose I take the view as Ruby's post highlights #404:
Jesus going down to the corner shop for bread and coming home with some bread is not likely to get a mention. Oh shit. I just realised my life could parallel Jesus'.

Jesus was a carpenter and would act just like any carpenter, so to speak ,which would corroborate with a consensus imo that He wouldn't "stick out" from the crowd i.e. not being as tall as angels or blonde and blue eyed with tache and goatie like worn in the muskateers.

Preaching to a crowd is not so unusual as well as healing the sick (besides the miracles in the scripture).
 
Last edited:
Closest I can think of is Scorsese's The Last Temptation of Christ, where some liberties with the Gospel stories are taken, not to mention the Kazantzakis novel.

When this movie originally came out it was declared pornography by my local government, because it shows a nude Mary Magdalene, so to rent the video I had to go to a porn rental place.

Mores have definitely relaxed around here since then (almost 30 years), and the porn stores have mostly disappeared thanks to the internet.

Oh yeah. I think I saw that years ago. But I can't remember it.

I especially like how 'Luke' describes the woman as a sinner. Maybe she was a prostitute. And the best bit is where she allegedly wipes his oily feet with her long hair. I might have a foot fetish I suppose. What must her hair have looked like just after? The dirty mind boggles.



On a general note, imo, there isn't nearly enough sex in the accounts of Jesus. I see it as an 'odd silence'.
 
In the past I've tried to get ones arguing in favor of historicity to say what parts of the NT stories are unique to Jesus, without parallels. But my attempts have normally been met with silence. Even professional theologians have run into this problem; see for instance Sweitzer's Quest for the Historical Jesus.

The Epistles! :)

Oh no. I forgot. Outer Space Jesus. :(

No but seriously, if you looked at any the events in my life, I dare say you could find a parallel with somebody else's. Plus, as I said, when Price attempts to find OT parallels, which does account for a large number, possibly most of the supposed parallels, they often aren't really parallel at all. Ditto for sources of parallels outside christianity and the OT. Beware taking parallelism too far, imo. Just because christians have been doing it for over 2000 years doesn't necessarily amount to a recommendation. :)

Also, the stories are arguably bound to dwell on the 'significant' events, whether they happened or not, because they're steeped in theology.

Jesus going down to the corner shop for bread and coming home with some bread is not likely to get a mention. Oh shit. I just realised my life could parallel Jesus'.

Like the canonicals, the epistles have also been doctored over time. My personal take is that the epistles are original letters, not fictional narratives like the gospels, at least the ones deemed most authentic, doctored though they are.

It isn't difficult for me to imagine there was an author composing these letters who believed what he was writing, unlike what we find in Mark. I've become familiar with what mental illness can do to a person so the author's experiences make absolute sense to me.
 
In the past I've tried to get ones arguing in favor of historicity to say what parts of the NT stories are unique to Jesus, without parallels. But my attempts have normally been met with silence. Even professional theologians have run into this problem; see for instance Sweitzer's Quest for the Historical Jesus.

The Epistles! :)

Oh no. I forgot. Outer Space Jesus. :(

Like the canonicals, the epistles have also been doctored over time. My personal take is that the epistles are original letters, not fictional narratives like the gospels, at least the ones deemed most authentic, doctored though they are.

It isn't difficult for me to imagine there was an author composing these letters who believed what he was writing, unlike what we find in Mark. I've become familiar with what mental illness can do to a person so the author's experiences make absolute sense to me.

They certainly have been 'doctored'; enough for a gnostic work to be in line with proto-orthodoxy. They first came to light in the possession on Marcion, who used them for his scriptures. They were 'reclaimed' by the proto-orthodox, probably as a means of attracting Marcionites 'back in to the fold'. Marcion, even in the second century, was NOT an historicist. Quite the opposite. And he used the Pauline epistles as the scripture for his church.

Dammit, where's my plasticized Pleroma map when I need it?
 
Thats an idea and at the moment I'd say; even if you were to compare similarities with other beliefs...they are not quite identical. That which does differ in places - not being similar- "on the whole" are still unique characters with distinct identities (for lack of better wording). How much acceptable are these differences between these character beliefs are there to be - to see them as unique?

*edit: Probably why its difficult for Christians to answer (myself included).


Personally I've not been asked anything like it myself so now thinking about it- I haven't come across those arguments to make a good enough coment (not as quick as others)- which is a good question by the way. I suppose I take the view as Ruby's post highlights #404:
Jesus going down to the corner shop for bread and coming home with some bread is not likely to get a mention. Oh shit. I just realised my life could parallel Jesus'.

Jesus was a carpenter and would act just like any carpenter, so to speak ,which would corroborate with a consensus imo that He wouldn't "stick out" from the crowd i.e. not being as tall as angels or blonde and blue eyed with tache and goatie like worn in the muskateers.

Preaching to a crowd is not so unusual as well as healing the sick (besides the miracles in the scripture).

Being raised catholic that's the original Jesus I was introduced to. The protagonist was a perfect human being who was wrongly put to death simply because he was a perfect human being. But then, theologically, surprise-surprise, this was the plan all along because we all needed saved and we needed a perfect sacrifice. But then Jesus was also a god who could become this perfect human being and therefore pull it all off. Then interpolate John to have a trinity... and on and on with the religious development.

And just as a reader of fiction the gospel protagonist is no more unique than any other unique character in a story, at least to me.
 
Like the canonicals, the epistles have also been doctored over time. My personal take is that the epistles are original letters, not fictional narratives like the gospels, at least the ones deemed most authentic, doctored though they are.

It isn't difficult for me to imagine there was an author composing these letters who believed what he was writing, unlike what we find in Mark. I've become familiar with what mental illness can do to a person so the author's experiences make absolute sense to me.

You have my sympathies. I'm glad you've mostly recovered, apart from this delusion about Jesus not existing.

Kidding. I had chronic depression for decades so I don't take such things lightly.
 
Being raised catholic that's the original Jesus I was introduced to. The protagonist was a perfect human being who was wrongly put to death simply because he was a perfect human being. But then, theologically, surprise-surprise, this was the plan all along because we all needed saved and we needed a perfect sacrifice. But then Jesus was also a god who could become this perfect human being and therefore pull it all off. Then interpolate John to have a trinity... and on and on with the religious development.

And just as a reader of fiction the gospel protagonist is no more unique than any other unique character in a story, at least to me.

It's my opinion that you might have gone too far the other way in thinking that a more ordinary person, a cult founder, a deluded and superstitious man (one of several like him around that time), never even existed, but I am not asking that you share my opinion. I'm fine with you taking it to be more likely that he didn't if that's the position you yourself have arrived at. My opinion is different, but it's just my opinion, my leaning. None of us will ever be even close to sure, and in many ways it's not that important.
 
Last edited:
Adolf von Harnack good enough for you? From History of Dogma.

Thanks. That was a very interesting read. But it appears that Harnack has it that Marcion held that Jesus came to earth, in human form, preached, had disciples and was crucified.

Yeah, a docetic appearance is distinctly historically verifiable. As if. Perhaps all the activity happened in the Third Heaven? Or, on one of the other seven?

I see you haven't got, or are ignoring, the map to the Pleroma.

Is this the 'outer space Jesus' which you dismiss so flippantly? I find it difficult to fathom Carrier putting forward some kind of Raëlian hypothesis.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom