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Richard D. Wolff video: 3 basic types of socialism

PyramidHead

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I think this video could be instructive for the people (including myself, admittedly) who vacillate among multiple flavors of socialism when talking about it. Dr. Wolff is good at breaking down these ideas, even if he omits some important characteristics from the analysis.



To sum up...

1. Socialism in the first sense: the government regulates, intervenes, directs, constrains, shapes the economy toward social ends without changing the institutions of private ownership and market exchange. Examples include the majority of first-world European democracies like Germany, Denmark, France, Spain, Italy, Portugal, etc. This is what Bernie Sanders means when he talks about socialism 90% of the time. This school of thought is also called social democracy by some.

2. Socialism in the second sense says: reforming and regulating private enterprise doesn't go far enough, because it will always be vulnerable to pushback from the profiteers who do not want to be constrained. Therefore, the state must take over private ownership entirely, to channel all investment and production toward social ends. Also, the market is a bad way of distributing scarce resources, because those who most need them are always the ones least likely to afford them, so for the basics of human existence we should rationally plan the production and allocation of goods and services. To differentiate themselves from the first group, socialists of this stripe used the word communist to describe themselves. Examples: the Soviet Union, Cuba, communist China, Vietnam for part of its existence, Venezuela in the early 90's, and many European countries in the era leading up to World War I. No politician or major political party advocates communism in the United States.

3. The third sense of socialism is Wolff's pet project, and says: neither regulating private enterprise nor taking it over with the government will lead to favorable outcomes if the workplace itself is still controlled in a capitalist way, with employers (state or private) owning everything that is produced by employees, and deciding what to do with the value they create. Wherever production or service provision happens, therefore, the details of what gets done, who does it, how much is done, how fast, where the surplus goes, and where the company is located should be democratically decided by the people who engage in whatever it is the company does. This is often referred to as a worker co-op, but it is important to note that this is a description of an individual enterprise, not a society-wide economic system. Maybe 10% of the time, this is what Bernie seems to advocate.

All of these approaches have their merits and shortcomings, but there is still no clear vision for how to get from the current system to one that incorporates the right combination of elements. There have been no examples of a socialist society, at least in the second sense ("communist") that have been allowed to operate without impediment, whether due to invasion, sanctions, or sabotage, and the topic of how to balance egalitarian aspirations with the need to resist inevitable capitalist pushback is an ongoing debate on the left.
 
I have long enjoyed Wolff. I don't agree with all he says for sure, but he presents it well and makes his case convincingly. He's a good speaker in his own way. I think he's the best from his ideology. I think the opposite of Noam Chomsky. Chomsky has some good points but wow is his presentation horrible.
 
Chomsky is as old as dirt, older than I will likely live until.
 
Another breakdown of how -isms relate to the government and to the majority is as follows (from Twitter).

Public $ spent in public interest = socialism

Private $ spent in private interest = capitalism

Private $ spent in public interest = charity

corruption

That last category is what I want to focus on for a bit. Bernie Sanders' campaign manager, journalist David Sorota, has often called the government's subsidizing of large corporations at the expense of the working class "corporate socialism", or "socialism for the rich". The phrasing in the above tweet calls it "corruption".

None of these characterizations are accurate in my view, because they all rely on defining capitalism as simply a collection of isolated transactions done by private parties for profit; therefore any involvement of the state must either be a corrupting external force or a perversion of socialism. They also further the narrative that socialism is any government program that uses tax dollars. Some tax-funded programs are socialist-ish, but being funded by tax dollars alone is not sufficient to establish something as socialist (by any of Wolff's definitions).

Rather, the Marxist analysis is and has always been that public $ spent in private interest is an indispensable element of capitalism. No capitalist society has ever existed without state assistance, because capitalism leads to regular crises that threaten to collapse the system unless rescued. The rescue mechanism, as well as the safeguards and supports added between crises, are part and parcel of what makes capitalism what it is. It's not just corruption when the government bails out banks and loosens environmental restriction, it's a rational and predictable outcome of any economy that includes private property and market exchanges.
 
I've can only count two types of socialism:

1) The kind where socialists say "Oh, look how wonderful this socialism is!"
2) The kind where socialists say 'ZMFOG *real* socialism was never tried!11!!"

#2 usually occurs in the same place, about 20 years after #1.
 
FeelTheBern2: Back in the Habit on Twitter: "@davidsirota
Public $ spent in public interest = socialism
Private $ spent in private interest = capitalism
Private $ spent in public interest = charity
Public $ spent in private interest = corruption
There, that should clear up any confusion they might have." / Twitter


Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez | SXSW 2019 - YouTube (about 33 minutes in) After she stated that different people mean different things by "capitalism" and "socialism", she defined capitalism as an ideology that gives priority to capital accumulation over everything else, no matter what the human and environmental cost. Democratic socialism, in her mind, mean putting democracy and society first, instead of capital first. It does not mean abolishing capital, she tells us. She says that it does not mean government taking over business, and that we instead have the opposite: business taking over government. She also says that we should be wary of some combination of both entities, whether one way or the other.

She also states that she wants more democracy in the workplace, that one should not check one's rights at the door, that it is the workers who do the production and the wealth creation, and not those on top. Although CEO's have an important function, they are not the only ones who do important work, despite what their sycophants might claim. Like Ayn Rand in "Atlas Shrugged".

So it is evident that AOC favors socialism types #1 and #3, and not #2.
 
Watching videos is hard, understanding historical context even harder, but counting higher than two is the ultimate challenge for dismal
 
FeelTheBern2: Back in the Habit on Twitter: "@davidsirota
Public $ spent in public interest = socialism
Private $ spent in private interest = capitalism
Private $ spent in public interest = charity
Public $ spent in private interest = corruption
There, that should clear up any confusion they might have." / Twitter


Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez | SXSW 2019 - YouTube (about 33 minutes in) After she stated that different people mean different things by "capitalism" and "socialism", she defined capitalism as an ideology that gives priority to capital accumulation over everything else, no matter what the human and environmental cost. Democratic socialism, in her mind, mean putting democracy and society first, instead of capital first. It does not mean abolishing capital, she tells us. She says that it does not mean government taking over business, and that we instead have the opposite: business taking over government. She also says that we should be wary of some combination of both entities, whether one way or the other.

She also states that she wants more democracy in the workplace, that one should not check one's rights at the door, that it is the workers who do the production and the wealth creation, and not those on top. Although CEO's have an important function, they are not the only ones who do important work, despite what their sycophants might claim. Like Ayn Rand in "Atlas Shrugged".

So it is evident that AOC favors socialism types #1 and #3, and not #2.

Yes. AOC is very much a social democrat who is in favor of worker co-ops. What she (and the emerging left movement in general) unfortunately misses is that economic policy and foreign policy are inextricably linked. The gains of capitalism in the United States and much of the developed world, for example, are only made possible by the exploitation of workers in other places and times. The United States was built largely by slaves and is supplied with the basic necessities for its continued existence largely by poor Asians. It has responded to every appearance of an egalitarian, worker-friendly society with aggression of some sort, either by economic or military means, either in full view or covertly, either alone or with allies. It will continue to do so even if there is a higher American minimum wage, American universal health care, or an American environmental stimulus package. This is why many socialists see option #2 as a necessary element of any approach to weaken capitalism.
 
. There have been no examples of a socialist society, at least in the second sense ("communist") that have been allowed to operate without impediment, whether due to invasion, sanctions, or sabotage, ....

Can you clarify? Because in my mind there have been examples of socialism #2 that have been given plenty of chance to succeed. The USSR being a good example.
 
One thing that is often absent from the discussion of co-ops in a social democracy is how to get there. The primary issues come in where the capitalists *have* put forward real risk and investment, but wherein that investment is allowed to eclipse the fact that the workers are responsible for all value added. This creates a system where over time, workers are denied the value they create.

I keep pointing out that this is unsustainable.

To remedy this, I think that we need to advance to a system where ownership of the means of production gravitates over time to those who apply said means, to the extent the means are applied. This can be accomplished largely by passing laws that *gradually* transfer ownership of some asset to the person or persons using said assets; and if assets sit unused, to gravitate towards the public trust.

Capital must be expected to make an investment, get some margin of profit in the case of successful investment, and then *move on*.

This could, itself, be accomplished in a variety of ways, though lately my favourite would be to change the way dividends are structures, such that dividends only be paid in the form of selling stock to the company itself plus some fixed profit margin, where that stock would come to be owned by the employees. Thus to extract value is to cede control and ownership of future value.
 
One thing that is often absent from the discussion of co-ops in a social democracy is how to get there. The primary issues come in where the capitalists *have* put forward real risk and investment, but wherein that investment is allowed to eclipse the fact that the workers are responsible for all value added. This creates a system where over time, workers are denied the value they create.

I keep pointing out that this is unsustainable.

To remedy this, I think that we need to advance to a system where ownership of the means of production gravitates over time to those who apply said means, to the extent the means are applied. This can be accomplished largely by passing laws that *gradually* transfer ownership of some asset to the person or persons using said assets; and if assets sit unused, to gravitate towards the public trust.

Capital must be expected to make an investment, get some margin of profit in the case of successful investment, and then *move on*.

This could, itself, be accomplished in a variety of ways, though lately my favourite would be to change the way dividends are structures, such that dividends only be paid in the form of selling stock to the company itself plus some fixed profit margin, where that stock would come to be owned by the employees. Thus to extract value is to cede control and ownership of future value.

There's no need to steal people's stuff. You can start an ESOP today in the US. Get a group of like minded partners who share your goals and create an co-op, or esop, or employee company. No problem. I can think of several big very successful ones: Winco, Bob's Red Mills, and etc. One of the problems with socialists is that they think that they have to steal to create their paradise. There's no need...
 
Mitch McConnell knows socialism when he sees it:

They plan to make the District of Columbia a state — that’d give them two new Democratic senators — Puerto Rico a state, that would give them two more new Democratic senators. And as a former Supreme Court clerk yourself, you’ve surely noticed that they plan to expand the Supreme Court. So this is full bore socialism on the march in the House. And yeah, as long as I’m the majority leader of the Senate, none of that stuff is going anywhere.

There you are; equal representation for all American citizens is socialism. Sorry, it's full-bore socialism. I'm sure we all recall what a socialist hell-hole the United States became back in the 1950s when Alaska and Hawaii became states.

It would seem that the definition of 'socialism' is rather fluid for conservatives, too.
 
Mitch McConnell knows socialism when he sees it:

They plan to make the District of Columbia a state — that’d give them two new Democratic senators — Puerto Rico a state, that would give them two more new Democratic senators. And as a former Supreme Court clerk yourself, you’ve surely noticed that they plan to expand the Supreme Court. So this is full bore socialism on the march in the House. And yeah, as long as I’m the majority leader of the Senate, none of that stuff is going anywhere.

There you are; equal representation for all American citizens is socialism. Sorry, it's full-bore socialism. I'm sure we all recall what a socialist hell-hole the United States became back in the 1950s when Alaska and Hawaii became states.

It would seem that the definition of 'socialism' is rather fluid for conservatives, too.

Of course. Conservatives use language to influence. They are masters at it. They started calling government programs "socialist" in the 1960's in order to paint democrats as socialists. It's brilliant. Sad that so many have adopted their definition.
 
Here's another definition:

I’m at the Hotel Imperial in Vienna, Austria. Almost 200 rooms… But the elevator has been broken for 3 days.

Please don’t bring European-style socialism to America. 🚯 pic.twitter.com/axeygJSoBi
— Frank Luntz (@FrankLuntz) June 18, 2019
There we are. Broken elevators = Socialism. Although we should clarify that's European-style socialism. No word yet on what it's called when an elevator breaks in South America, Israel, or for that matter, the US.

As a pollster, Luntz is famous for advising Republicans to describe things using “emotional” language. He’s the guy who told the GOP to call the estate tax the “death tax,” for instance. Right now, he’s advising the Trump administration on its messaging and has been making the rounds talking about how Bernie Sanders is the most likely Democratic nominee. My guess is Luntz is advising the GOP to talk about socialism as much as possible (and it has been), and to use the word as an all-purpose synonym for things that are bad, foreign, and dysfunctional.
 
Here's another definition:

I’m at the Hotel Imperial in Vienna, Austria. Almost 200 rooms… But the elevator has been broken for 3 days.

Please don’t bring European-style socialism to America. 🚯 pic.twitter.com/axeygJSoBi
— Frank Luntz (@FrankLuntz) June 18, 2019
There we are. Broken elevators = Socialism. Although we should clarify that's European-style socialism. No word yet on what it's called when an elevator breaks in South America, Israel, or for that matter, the US.
That hotel's home page: Hotel in Vienna: The 5 Star Hotel Imperial Vienna Its ultimate parent page: Hotels & Resorts | Book your Hotel directly with Marriott Bonvoy -- Marriott Hotels -- capitalist hotels :D
 
Mitch McConnell knows socialism when he sees it:

They plan to make the District of Columbia a state — that’d give them two new Democratic senators — Puerto Rico a state, that would give them two more new Democratic senators. And as a former Supreme Court clerk yourself, you’ve surely noticed that they plan to expand the Supreme Court. So this is full bore socialism on the march in the House. And yeah, as long as I’m the majority leader of the Senate, none of that stuff is going anywhere.

There you are; equal representation for all American citizens is socialism. Sorry, it's full-bore socialism. I'm sure we all recall what a socialist hell-hole the United States became back in the 1950s when Alaska and Hawaii became states.

It would seem that the definition of 'socialism' is rather fluid for conservatives, too.

Of course. Conservatives use language to influence. They are masters at it. They started calling government programs "socialist" in the 1960's in order to paint democrats as socialists. It's brilliant. Sad that so many have adopted their definition.

I agree. The American debate when it comes to "socialism" is hopelessly infantile, on both sides.

Friedrich von Hayek and Milton Friedman, darlings of the libertarian movement, were in favor of some limited forms of social welfare, but they were certainly not socialists.

I can't speak for other countries, but the Social Democrats in Sweden don't seek to end all private ownership of the means of production. That debate was settled almost a century ago.

From good old Wikipedia:

Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production and workers' self-management, as well as the political theories and movements associated with them. Social ownership can be public, collective or cooperative ownership, or citizen ownership of equity. There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them, with social ownership being the common element shared by its various forms.

Does this describe any European country? No. Is this desirable? I don't object to worker-owned companies in principle, but I would oppose forcing all companies to be worker-owned. In fact, companies can be worker-owned under the current system already.
 
Mitch McConnell knows socialism when he sees it:

They plan to make the District of Columbia a state — that’d give them two new Democratic senators — Puerto Rico a state, that would give them two more new Democratic senators. And as a former Supreme Court clerk yourself, you’ve surely noticed that they plan to expand the Supreme Court. So this is full bore socialism on the march in the House. And yeah, as long as I’m the majority leader of the Senate, none of that stuff is going anywhere.

There you are; equal representation for all American citizens is socialism. Sorry, it's full-bore socialism. I'm sure we all recall what a socialist hell-hole the United States became back in the 1950s when Alaska and Hawaii became states.

It would seem that the definition of 'socialism' is rather fluid for conservatives, too.

Of course. Conservatives use language to influence. They are masters at it. They started calling government programs "socialist" in the 1960's in order to paint democrats as socialists. It's brilliant. Sad that so many have adopted their definition.

I don't mean to single you out for this, but this is one of the sillier comments I've ever seen. The people who are trying to redefine what "socialism" means are the people like AOC and Bernie and their fan base.

Every time I argue that socialism means what the dictionary says it means (i.e., the government owns or controls the means of production) some leftist asshat here tells me the dictionary is wrong.
 
. There have been no examples of a socialist society, at least in the second sense ("communist") that have been allowed to operate without impediment, whether due to invasion, sanctions, or sabotage, ....

Can you clarify? Because in my mind there have been examples of socialism #2 that have been given plenty of chance to succeed. The USSR being a good example.

The USSR did not have a single day of peace since its formation. It was immediately invaded by Western powers, including the United States, Britain, and France a year after the Russian revolution that spawned it. After the US withdrew its forces, we continued to support anti-Bolshevik "white army" forces from overseas. You may also note that this occurred in the middle of the first World War, a conflict that left Russia devastated. Churchill, Chamberlain, and other prominent Western figures in the UK and elsewhere actually allied themselves with Nazi Germany at the time, to contain the growing Bolshevik "threat".

The USSR had to transition from an agrarian backwoods peasantry ruled by tsars to a military superpower capable of withstanding assault from all sides, which of course it did. Less than half a million Americans died in World War 2; almost 30 million Soviets were killed, either in battle or by invading forces. In the end, the Soviets were the ones who defeated the Nazis decisively.

Despite having been reduced basically to rubble, the USSR still managed to climb back into the arms race and become a technological superpower. With no private investment or entrepreneurship to speak of, they launched the first satellite, the first space station, the first unmanned craft to the moon, the first human in space, the first spacewalk, the first animal in space, the first unmanned craft to Venus, and many other scientific achievements; but the history books say they "lost the space race" because the US beat them to the moonwalk.

All of which took place during the Cold War, during which time the US used about 1,000 ex-Nazis and collaborators as spies and informants.
 
Incidentally you forgot that the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany made a treaty dividing up Europe between them that started WW2, and that the Soviet Union as a result launched aggressive wars against among others Finland and the Baltic countries, and kept the latter annexed.

So no, the Soviet Union was not a force for good. Yes, they contributed to defeating Nazi Germany, because they had to after the Germans backstabbed them, but their treaty gave the Germans free space to invade and annex plenty of other countries to begin with.
 
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