Sbarro terrorists have received almost a million dollars to date from the Palestinian Authority

[Derec]

... I won't even bother with the neg reps for that stupidity.

This is a thread about Islamic terrorism in Israel and your response was basically derail about how white people are the real problem. So neg rep or not, but my diagnosis was anything but "stupid".

 

[Derec]

Oh, boo hoo. $982k in EIGHTEEN YEARS!!
That's a whopping $50k/yr TOTAL. If that's "most of their budget"

That's the blood money paid for a SINGLE terrorist attack.
The total budget of the "pay for slay" program is much, much, bigger of course.
Think tank: Abbas allocates $330 million to pay terrorists, ‘martyrs,’ inmates

Why is it so hard to understand that this is a YUUUUGE nothingburger?

Only if you lack reading comprehension and mistake payments from a single terrorist attack for the entire budget of the program.

The people oppressing them

Oppressing who?

WTF is wrong with y'all?

Nothing. What's wrong with you?

 

[Derec]

The Martyr's Fund isn't a government program.

The hell it isn't!

The PLO created it back in the 1960s and manages it today.

PLO and PA are, for all intents and purposes, the same thing.

The PA when it was first formed managed the Fund for a few years, but disassociated itself a while ago. So if you want to criticize the PA for the Martyr's Fund, you have to limit your criticism to the years when the PA was involved.

Then why is the so-called "martyrs fund" a line item in the PA budget?

Also, read this.
Shin Bet chief met with Abbas over PA tax money held by Israel — report

The head of the Shin Bet security service, Nadav Argaman, met recently with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas in an attempt to persuade him to agree to accept tax money collected by Israel on the PA’s behalf, according to a Saturday report by Channel 12 news.

Abbas has refused to accept the funds because Israel was withhelding money to match the sums the PA pays to the families of terrorists.

Source? I'm pretty sure the last time we talked about the Fund it was established that most of the funds go to prisoners and their families, and most of the prisoners weren't terrorists.

Why do you say most prisoners weren't terrorists? Israel doesn't bother with common prisoners from the Palestinian areas - PA takes care of them.

 

[Elixir]

WTF is wrong with y'all?

Nothing.

Maybe except that lack of any sense of scale.
Y'know - reality?

 

[Arctish]

The hell it isn't!


PLO and PA are, for all intents and purposes, the same thing.

That's like saying the GOP and the US government are the same thing. In some ways they are, especially when Republicans control the Senate and the Executive Office, but not when it comes to donations made to funds the political party created and manages.

The PA when it was first formed managed the Fund for a few years, but disassociated itself a while ago. So if you want to criticize the PA for the Martyr's Fund, you have to limit your criticism to the years when the PA was involved.

Then why is the so-called "martyrs fund" a line item in the PA budget?

Good question. You should look into it.

I haven't yet. This is the first I've heard about the line item in the budget. If I find out anything I'll post it here. I'd appreciate it if you do the same.

Also, read this.
Shin Bet chief met with Abbas over PA tax money held by Israel — report

The head of the Shin Bet security service, Nadav Argaman, met recently with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas in an attempt to persuade him to agree to accept tax money collected by Israel on the PA’s behalf, according to a Saturday report by Channel 12 news.

Abbas has refused to accept the funds because Israel was withholding money to match the sums the PA pays to the families of terrorists.

It sounds like they're conflating terrorists with rock throwers, and trying to strong-arm Abbas into accepting a fraction of the tax revenues the PA is owed.

I think that even if Abbas agreed that terrorists shouldn't be rewarded, he's still refuse to accept partial payment of what the PA is owed as a matter of principle and because letting Israel dictate the terms would set a terrible precedent.

Source? I'm pretty sure the last time we talked about the Fund it was established that most of the funds go to prisoners and their families, and most of the prisoners weren't terrorists.

Why do you say most prisoners weren't terrorists? Israel doesn't bother with common prisoners from the Palestinian areas - PA takes care of them.

We talked about this before

At the time there were approx. 6,500 Palestinians incarcerated in Israeli, some 500 of which were being held without charge, and the majority of which were not convicted of committing acts of terrorism.

If you object to terrorists and their families receiving money for their acts of mayhem, there certainly is a case to be made there and I think a lot of posters will agree with you. But if you're just bashing the PA for not eliminating the Martyr's Fund and thereby cutting off social welfare payments to the families of imprisoned Palestinians, wounded veterans, and to the families of fighters KIA, that's a different story.

I don't see you making any distinction between 'terrorist', 'rock thrower', and 'detained without charge for unknown reasons'. I think if you did make those distinctions a lot more people around here would agree with you that the Martyr's Fund is tainted and should be replaced with something that doesn't reward terrorism. However, I don't think most people here will agree the Palestinians shouldn't offer the kinds of benefits to their fighters that most nations offer to theirs, so we're probably still going to argue.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That doesn't change the fact that most Martyr's Fund payments go to terrorists or their survivors.

Oh, boo hoo. $982k in EIGHTEEN YEARS!!
That's a whopping $50k/yr TOTAL. If that's "most of their budget" and they are able to grab headlines to this extent, we should be praising their efficiency and emulating their style of government!
Why is it so hard to understand that this is a YUUUUGE nothingburger? The people oppressing them are getting more than TWO MILLION TIMES that amount EVERY YEAR of YOUR MONEY!! WAKE UP!

That's more than two million American taxpayer dollars EACH YEAR for every single dollar the Palestinians can muster to pay over EIGHTEEN YEARS for what little dirty work they can get done.
WTF is wrong with y'all?

You're looking at one tiny slice of it, the real answer is more like a third of a billion per year.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/think...id-as-pa-allots-nis-1-2b-for-inmates-martyrs/

(There is some uncertainty here because it includes some money paid to Palestinian prisoners who were simply common criminals. That's small potatoes, though.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Some posters care about facts. They try very hard to have an accurate understanding of situations before they offer comments.

The Martyr's Fund isn't a government program. The PLO created it back in the 1960s and manages it today. The PA when it was first formed managed the Fund for a few years, but disassociated itself a while ago. So if you want to criticize the PA for the Martyr's Fund, you have to limit your criticism to the years when the PA was involved.

It's PA money and considered far more important than government salaries. I don't care who manages it.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why do you say most prisoners weren't terrorists? Israel doesn't bother with common prisoners from the Palestinian areas - PA takes care of them.

There will be a few--ones that slipped across the border and committed a crime.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That's like saying the GOP and the US government are the same thing. In some ways they are, especially when Republicans control the Senate and the Executive Office, but not when it comes to donations made to funds the political party created and manages.

Except the PA is in effect a one-party state. The party is the state.

Then why is the so-called "martyrs fund" a line item in the PA budget?

Good question. You should look into it.

I haven't yet. This is the first I've heard about the line item in the budget. If I find out anything I'll post it here. I'd appreciate it if you do the same.

It's not the first you've heard of it.

Abbas has refused to accept the funds because Israel was withholding money to match the sums the PA pays to the families of terrorists.

It sounds like they're conflating terrorists with rock throwers, and trying to strong-arm Abbas into accepting a fraction of the tax revenues the PA is owed.

Rock throwers normally don't end up martyrs or prisoners and thus wouldn't be eligible for this.

And it's not a matter of trying to get Abbas to accept a lower amount, it's simply saying that the amount of those payments will be deducted from tax revenue that's supposed to go to the PA. Agreement isn't required.

I think that even if Abbas agreed that terrorists shouldn't be rewarded, he's still refuse to accept partial payment of what the PA is owed as a matter of principle and because letting Israel dictate the terms would set a terrible precedent.

You want peace--this is money explicitly being paid for war. Getting rid of it would be a big help for peace.

 

[Arctish]

Some posters care about facts. They try very hard to have an accurate understanding of situations before they offer comments.

The Martyr's Fund isn't a government program. The PLO created it back in the 1960s and manages it today. The PA when it was first formed managed the Fund for a few years, but disassociated itself a while ago. So if you want to criticize the PA for the Martyr's Fund, you have to limit your criticism to the years when the PA was involved.

It's PA money and considered far more important than government salaries. I don't care who manages it.

Some posters do care who manages it. They care who receives payments and why. They care about eliminating financial support for terrorism. And they care about social welfare programs that support the families of prisoners.

Some folks would fully support the removal of terrorists from the Martyr's Fund benefits program but oppose eliminating the fund for the families of Palestinians imprisoned for lesser crimes (or for no crime), for wounded veteran's and their families, and the families of people killed in the strife.

 

[Elixir]

Some folks would fully support the removal of terrorists from the Martyr's Fund benefits program but oppose eliminating the fund for the families of Palestinians imprisoned for lesser crimes (or for no crime), for wounded veteran's and their families, and the families of people killed in the strife.

Families of alt-white domestic terrorists should be forbidden to receive any federal benefits.
Let's clean up the mess in our own kitchen before criticizing others'.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Some posters care about facts. They try very hard to have an accurate understanding of situations before they offer comments.

The Martyr's Fund isn't a government program. The PLO created it back in the 1960s and manages it today. The PA when it was first formed managed the Fund for a few years, but disassociated itself a while ago. So if you want to criticize the PA for the Martyr's Fund, you have to limit your criticism to the years when the PA was involved.

It's PA money and considered far more important than government salaries. I don't care who manages it.

Some posters do care who manages it. They care who receives payments and why. They care about eliminating financial support for terrorism. And they care about social welfare programs that support the families of prisoners.

Some folks would fully support the removal of terrorists from the Martyr's Fund benefits program but oppose eliminating the fund for the families of Palestinians imprisoned for lesser crimes (or for no crime), for wounded veteran's and their families, and the families of people killed in the strife.

You misunderstand my position here.

The input is PA money. The output is money that is mostly being paid to terrorists or their families. These are the important facts. What I'm saying is unimportant is the exact process by which the money gets from point A to point B. Whether the Martyr's Fund is under PA control or not has no bearing on the situation.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Some folks would fully support the removal of terrorists from the Martyr's Fund benefits program but oppose eliminating the fund for the families of Palestinians imprisoned for lesser crimes (or for no crime), for wounded veteran's and their families, and the families of people killed in the strife.

Families of alt-white domestic terrorists should be forbidden to receive any federal benefits.
Let's clean up the mess in our own kitchen before criticizing others'.

We shouldn't be punishing the families.

(Note that the house destruction in Israel is a different matter--it's an attempt to counter the benefits of the Martyr's Fund payments to the family.)

 

[Derec]

Another Hamasnik got smoked trying to cross the border yesterday.

Good riddance!

As Border Incidents Multiply, Hamas Shakes Off Responsibility for Operative Who Shot at Israeli Forces
I strongly suspect these attacks (which have started occurring suspiciously soon after Iran injected some heavy funding into Hamas) are condoned by Hamas leadership but they want to maintain plausible deniability. I also wonder how much his family will get paid for this.

 

[Arctish]

Some posters do care who manages it. They care who receives payments and why. They care about eliminating financial support for terrorism. And they care about social welfare programs that support the families of prisoners.

Some folks would fully support the removal of terrorists from the Martyr's Fund benefits program but oppose eliminating the fund for the families of Palestinians imprisoned for lesser crimes (or for no crime), for wounded veteran's and their families, and the families of people killed in the strife.

You misunderstand my position here.

The input is PA money. The output is money that is mostly being paid to terrorists or their families. These are the important facts. What I'm saying is unimportant is the exact process by which the money gets from point A to point B. Whether the Martyr's Fund is under PA control or not has no bearing on the situation.

The last time I remember us discussing the Martyr's Fund was in a thread you started. ***

Your OP began with an article in which Abbas said demands to eliminate Martyr's Fund payments was akin to 'asking Israel to stop paying its soldiers'. I noted that the last couple of paragraphs in the article said something very interesting:

Also Wednesday, Ahmad Majdalan, a senior PLO official and adviser to Abbas, told Israel Radio that in May 2014, Netanyahu’s chief negotiator Yitzchak Molcho, chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat and US secretary of state John Kerry signed a document allowing the Palestinians to pay salaries to prisoners’ families from the Palestinian Liberation Organization fund instead of from the Palestinian Authority treasury.

The Prime Minister’s Office on Wednesday rejected the claim, calling it “another Palestinian invention, which never happened, which was intended to distract from the discussion of the demand to stop the Palestinian Authority funding terrorists.”

I wondered who was telling the truth and said it sounded like something Kerry would have negotiated. Derec's response to my speculation regarding Kerry was "Unfortunately you are right about that."

So now we have an OP that presents the Martyr's Fund as a PA program even though it's managed by the PLO, and doesn't mention the possibility Fund's management was part of an Israeli-Palestinian agreement brokered by the US. It's like we took a couple of giant steps back to the beginning and we're all supposed to act like we learned nothing from the previous discussion.

Do we really have to re-invent the wheel every single time we want to move forward?

Anyway, about this current thread, you say the money is mostly going to terrorists and their families. I think you're getting that from claims Netanyahu and Israeli government officials have made. Last year, the Washington Post examined the issue and awarded Netanyahu's claims two Pinocchios: Does the Palestinian Authority pay $350 million a year to ‘terrorists and their families’?

WaPo did a good job tracking down what information is available and IMO was very fair in their assessment. It duly noted some terrorists responsible for horrific attacks are receiving payments from the Martyr's Fund. It also noted that some victims of horrific attacks are receiving Martyr's Fund payments as well. And while it was necessary for WaPo to estimate some numbers and make certain assumptions based on length of prison sentences, the conclusion that Netanyahu is grossly exaggerating the numbers of terrorists and the amount of money they receive is pretty firmly supported.

The Martyr's Fund isn't just a 'pay for slay' program. And while I would support removing terrorists from the program, I oppose scrapping it entirely. I think it's fair to compare it to the benefits other nations offer their veterans, P.O.W.s , and regular citizens.


***ETA: there was another brief discussion here where we mostly went over the same information in support of the same positions.