School Basketball Coach Suspended After His Team Drubbed Opponents 92-4

[Toni]

Most people would realize that.

No, Toni. No.

You and everyone who thinks like you accept that pronouncement. The people who had the exact same prejudiced impulse that you did think that.

But not everyone thinks like you, as much as you like to think so. You see, I can think of other reasons, plausible reasons, why the coach did what he did that do not include 'in order to embarrass the other team'.

You really need to learn to read more carefully. "Most people" is not everyone.

You really need to learn to read more carefully. "Most people" is most people. I did not say 'everyone'.

Toni, and apparently also yourself, think that your opinions are majority opinions, even as you ensconce yourself in a straitjacketed coterie of people who already think exactly like you do.

Cool dodge.

 

[Metaphor]

I am sorry that you do not understand or differentiate the differences between individual competitions such as track events compared with team events such as basketball.

In a race, there is almost always only one winner. But there is a second and a third place as well as a fourth and so on. Running races is individuals competing as individuals, with individual points according to placement accruing to each team per event and then totaled together with all of the events. Virtually no female one on earth--and not that many males would have felt bad at coming in second to Florence Griffith Joyner in her prime, even if she lapped them several times.

In basketball, team effort counts to help the person scoring to score points and to keep the other team from scoring. Yes, individual stats are kept but they don't matter at all to the team's final score and are not positively correlated with how well the team performed. The win is to the team.

I am sorry that you do not understand you've made a distinction without a moral difference.

 

[Toni]

I am sorry that you do not understand or differentiate the differences between individual competitions such as track events compared with team events such as basketball.

In a race, there is almost always only one winner. But there is a second and a third place as well as a fourth and so on. Running races is individuals competing as individuals, with individual points according to placement accruing to each team per event and then totaled together with all of the events. Virtually no female one on earth--and not that many males would have felt bad at coming in second to Florence Griffith Joyner in her prime, even if she lapped them several times.

In basketball, team effort counts to help the person scoring to score points and to keep the other team from scoring. Yes, individual stats are kept but they don't matter at all to the team's final score and are not positively correlated with how well the team performed. The win is to the team.

I am sorry that you do not understand you've made a distinction without a moral difference.

I'm sorry you do not understand.

 

[laughing dog]

Most people would realize that.

No, Toni. No.

You and everyone who thinks like you accept that pronouncement. The people who had the exact same prejudiced impulse that you did think that.

But not everyone thinks like you, as much as you like to think so. You see, I can think of other reasons, plausible reasons, why the coach did what he did that do not include 'in order to embarrass the other team'.

You really need to learn to read more carefully. "Most people" is not everyone.

You really need to learn to read more carefully. "Most people" is most people. I did not say 'everyone'.

You said "not everyone thinks like you" which does not rebut "most people". So either your reply was truly pointless (a real possibility given your posting history) or you were sloppy (also a real possibility).

Toni, and apparently also yourself, think that your opinions are majority opinions, even as you ensconce yourself in a straitjacketed coterie of people who already think exactly like you do.

Unsurprisingly, another straw man. But then, that is you doing you.

 

[Jarhyn]

So, I will point out that most people think walking up to people in the street and insulting them is wrong. Not everyone, but most people.

Most people think walking up to a random person in the street and tossing a glass of water on them is wrong. Not everyone, but most people.

Most people think that cutting off someone in traffic is wrong. Not everyone but most people.

Most people think leaving shopping carts in the middle of the parking lot is wrong. Not everyone but most people.

I can categorically say that not everyone feels an obligation to be a good neighbor, either.

When people are being bad neighbors, and do so in protracted ways, we bring consequences against them, usually designed or in the hopes of them being less bad of neighbors now and in the future.

 

[laughing dog]

Are the runners who increased their margin assholes?

Not necessarily.

No. I said playing to your utmost will result in higher points.

No, you said it scoring the most possible points is doing your utmost.

Your defense of assholish behavior is coherent and completely unsurprising.

I will point out again I did not even defend the coach or the behaviour.

Okay, is Sacred Heart's running up the score to a differential of 88 points appropriate?

But your concession that acting like an asshole is indeed a morally undesirable behaviour is noted.

I didn't say that. My goodness, are you capable of actually understanding what people actually write? Acting like an asshole may be morally undesirable behavior.

 

[Metaphor]

You said "not everyone thinks like you" which does not rebut "most people". So either your reply was truly pointless (a real possibility given your posting history) or you were sloppy (also a real possibility).

I was neither. Toni quite casually makes claims she is in the majority ("most people"), when she means she is in the majority in her cossetted circle of friends. Not everyone thinks like Toni, and I doubt that most people think like Toni.

Unsurprisingly, another straw man. But then, that is you doing you.

It is not a straw man to say Toni described her opinion as a majority opinion (or rather, the majority view of 'decent people').

 

[Metaphor]

No, you said it scoring the most possible points is doing your utmost.

Doing your utmost leads to scoring more points.

Okay, is Sacred Heart's running up the score to a differential of 88 points appropriate?

It depends on events and conditions I do not know about.

I didn't say that. My goodness, are you capable of actually understanding what people actually write? Acting like an asshole may be morally undesirable behavior.

And in your words, is being a 'first class asshole' something morally desirable to be?

 

[laughing dog]

You said "not everyone thinks like you" which does not rebut "most people". So either your reply was truly pointless (a real possibility given your posting history) or you were sloppy (also a real possibility).

I was neither.

Sure Jan. Whatever makes you feel better.

Toni quite casually makes claims she is in the majority ("most people"), when she means she is in the majority in her cossetted circle of friends. Not everyone thinks like Toni, and I doubt that most people think like Toni.

It is quite possible Toni's "most people" refers to her observation of the world.

Unsurprisingly, another straw man. But then, that is you doing you.

It is not a straw man to say Toni described her opinion as a majority opinion (or rather, the majority view of 'decent people').

You did not say that originally. But hey, that is you doing you - denying reality.

 

[laughing dog]

No, you said it scoring the most possible points is doing your utmost.

Doing your utmost leads to scoring more points.

Since expecting a team to refrain from running up a score to an astronomical differential is not preventing them from scoring more points, what in the world have you been on about?

Okay, is Sacred Heart's running up the score to a differential of 88 points appropriate?

It depends on events and conditions I do not know about.

Terrible dodge. Under what events or conditions would it be acceptable.

I didn't say that. My goodness, are you capable of actually understanding what people actually write? Acting like an asshole may be morally undesirable behavior.

And in your words, is being a 'first class asshole' something morally desirable to be?

Sometimes it is.

 

[Metaphor]

It is quite possible Toni's "most people" refers to her observation of the world.

And somebody with the exact opposite opinion of Toni could say that 'most people' agree with them. It is not a useful observation to say 'most people I associate with have opinions similar to mine'.

You did not say that originally. But hey, that is you doing you - denying reality.

Toni made the claim that her opinion had weight because "the majority" of people in the thread agreed with her. Even if that were true, that is no more to the point than I'm sure most of Toni's friends would agree with her.

 

[laughing dog]

It is quite possible Toni's "most people" refers to her observation of the world.

And somebody with the exact opposite opinion of Toni could say that 'most people' agree with them. It is not a useful observation to say 'most people I associate with have opinions similar to mine'.

Since Toni did not say most people I associate with, what on earth are you talking about?

You did not say that originally. But hey, that is you doing you - denying reality.

Toni made the claim that her opinion had weight because "the majority" of people in the thread agreed with her. Even if that were true, that is no more to the point than I'm sure most of Toni's friends would agree with her.

I think she was pointing out her opinion was not an outlier.

 

[Toni]

It is quite possible Toni's "most people" refers to her observation of the world.

And somebody with the exact opposite opinion of Toni could say that 'most people' agree with them. It is not a useful observation to say 'most people I associate with have opinions similar to mine'.

You did not say that originally. But hey, that is you doing you - denying reality.

Toni made the claim that her opinion had weight because "the majority" of people in the thread agreed with her. Even if that were true, that is no more to the point than I'm sure most of Toni's friends would agree with her.

I made no such claim that my opinion had weight because a majority of people in the thread agreed with me.

I pointed out that most people posting in this thread agreed with me that the coach was in the wrong for running up the score of a high school basketball game.

You are the one bringing up morality. The rest of us are talking about fairness and sportsmanship.

 

[Metaphor]

Since Toni did not say most people I associate with, what on earth are you talking about?

Of course she didn't say it. That's the point. She deliberately implied a ubiquity to her opinions that is not supported by evidence.

 

[Metaphor]

I pointed out that most people posting in this thread agreed with me that the coach was in the wrong for running up the score of a high school basketball game.

So... what?

EDIT: I note your loaded language of 'running up' the score.

 

[Metaphor]

Terrible dodge. Under what events or conditions would it be acceptable.

Deliberately embarrassing and shaming the other team for solely in order to embarrass and shame them would probably not be acceptable under most circumstances.

Now, you think that is what must have happened, and I don't think it must have happened. I can think of other interpretations consistent with the evidence, like the coach and players were 'in the zone' and that energy carried on naturally throughout the game. Or the players wanted to win by as many points as possible in order to beat their own record. Or there is no cultural expectation to 'hold back' if you are winning (as apparently there is no such cultural expectation in individual sports). Or the coach thought it would be wrong to tell his players to deliberately hold back and that it would be a condescending display.

Your failure of imagination at the universe of possibilities is not validation of your opinion.

Sometimes it is.

Terrible dodge. When is it morally desirable to be a first class asshole?

 

[Gospel]

Nope - the goal of team sports is to win within the rules and spirit of the game which includes good sportsmanship.

You keep repeating the false premise that one wins by playing to your utmost and scoring as many points as possible for you to score.

Strange, I don't recall reading that in the basketball rule book large margins are unsportsmanlike conduct. Mind finding that anywhere from any school for any league?

 

[Jarhyn]

Nope - the goal of team sports is to win within the rules and spirit of the game which includes good sportsmanship.

You keep repeating the false premise that one wins by playing to your utmost and scoring as many points as possible for you to score.

Strange, I don't recall reading that in the basketball rule book large margins are unsportsmanlike conduct. Mind finding that anywhere from any school for any league?

Well, you won't find it for the same reason that you won't find anywhere in a book about how driving the same speed in the left lane of the highway as the guy in the right lane, but just far enough ahead to keep them out of your blind spot is a real asshole thing to do.

There's no law against "playing the game"

 

[Gospel]

Nope - the goal of team sports is to win within the rules and spirit of the game which includes good sportsmanship.

You keep repeating the false premise that one wins by playing to your utmost and scoring as many points as possible for you to score.

Strange, I don't recall reading that in the basketball rule book large margins are unsportsmanlike conduct. Mind finding that anywhere from any school for any league?

Well, you won't find it for the same reason that you won't find anywhere in a book about how driving the same speed in the left lane of the highway as the guy in the right lane, but just far enough ahead to keep them out of your blind spot is a real asshole thing to do.

There's no law against "playing the game"

Yet the coach was suspended & drivers doing what you described aren't ticketed for it.

 

[Gospel]

Learning how to lose gloriously is a lesson I'm happy to have learned. Can't tell you how many times I got 100% owned on the basketball court with no coach, school board, or referee, and still showed my appreciation to the assholes for a wild ride. I used to enjoy talking about those moments I figured out their weakness (though they simply changed up) and was able to use what I learned against people in other towns. Losing in so many incredibly bad ways made me impervious to all lessor losses and earned me above average status on the streets of Central Islip NY Wreck center after learning from the roughest and toughest and most skilled in the neighborhood. I used to go to towns like Smithtown, Hempstead & Amneiville to wreak havoc on the no so hood hood over there. Fun memories. I was playing against a gang named "The Legion of Doom" (stupid name) where rap artists like Keith Murray were a member (played against him as well). What these kids got isn't all that bad because I got my ass literally kicked (broken nose, a concussion here and there) a few times for not backing off the defense. All that and losing to boot.

I just really liked basketball until the Knicks made me kick the habit. I get it though, 92-4 is not a good look for high school games and sportsmanship. But what's there to do when they need that experience? As long as the winning team ain't breaking noses & being verbally abusive but are encouraging the other team to keep going and showing them respect for staying with it I see no foul.

Difference is, you stepped into a hard court on a hard street accepting that it was hard, so as to learn hard lessons.

That's not what this game was.

And those are all the lessons of competitive sports. High school sports build character not from holding hands and singing kumbaya but through team efforts win or lose, keep going and try to overcome challenges. If they lose against the best team playing their best they learn how to defeat teams that are not as good. Heck next time around their chances of beating the best team increase as they feed off the experience and grow. But to ask a team to hold back is doing nobody on the court favors.

I wonder what the players have to say about that game.

There is more to winning than the point spread.

Nobody is suggesting holding hands and singing campfire songs. People are saying Don’t be a jerk if you can help it. Patronizing the other team is awful just as running up a score unnecessarily.

Even in the pros, players and coaches and fans appreciate generous players.

How could you lead the response with "there is more to winning than the point spread" when your argument is about your issue with the point spread, and you're responding to a post that states there is more to the sport than winning?

 

[Jarhyn]

Nope - the goal of team sports is to win within the rules and spirit of the game which includes good sportsmanship.

You keep repeating the false premise that one wins by playing to your utmost and scoring as many points as possible for you to score.

Strange, I don't recall reading that in the basketball rule book large margins are unsportsmanlike conduct. Mind finding that anywhere from any school for any league?

Well, you won't find it for the same reason that you won't find anywhere in a book about how driving the same speed in the left lane of the highway as the guy in the right lane, but just far enough ahead to keep them out of your blind spot is a real asshole thing to do.

There's no law against "playing the game"

Yet the coach was suspended & drivers doing what you described aren't ticketed for it.

You aren't exactly right about it that drivers aren't ticketed. It is "driving recklessly" when someone does it in moderate traffic, and obstructing traffic when done in heavy traffic. People don't do it often enough for it to matter, either, usually.

When it's done in a context where it causes damage, usually there ARE consequences.

Learning how to lose gloriously is a lesson I'm happy to have learned. Can't tell you how many times I got 100% owned on the basketball court with no coach, school board, or referee, and still showed my appreciation to the assholes for a wild ride. I used to enjoy talking about those moments I figured out their weakness (though they simply changed up) and was able to use what I learned against people in other towns. Losing in so many incredibly bad ways made me impervious to all lessor losses and earned me above average status on the streets of Central Islip NY Wreck center after learning from the roughest and toughest and most skilled in the neighborhood. I used to go to towns like Smithtown, Hempstead & Amneiville to wreak havoc on the no so hood hood over there. Fun memories. I was playing against a gang named "The Legion of Doom" (stupid name) where rap artists like Keith Murray were a member (played against him as well). What these kids got isn't all that bad because I got my ass literally kicked (broken nose, a concussion here and there) a few times for not backing off the defense. All that and losing to boot.

I just really liked basketball until the Knicks made me kick the habit. I get it though, 92-4 is not a good look for high school games and sportsmanship. But what's there to do when they need that experience? As long as the winning team ain't breaking noses & being verbally abusive but are encouraging the other team to keep going and showing them respect for staying with it I see no foul.

Difference is, you stepped into a hard court on a hard street accepting that it was hard, so as to learn hard lessons.

That's not what this game was.

And those are all the lessons of competitive sports. High school sports build character not from holding hands and singing kumbaya but through team efforts win or lose, keep going and try to overcome challenges. If they lose against the best team playing their best they learn how to defeat teams that are not as good. Heck next time around their chances of beating the best team increase as they feed off the experience and grow. But to ask a team to hold back is doing nobody on the court favors.

I wonder what the players have to say about that game.

There is more to winning than the point spread.

Nobody is suggesting holding hands and singing campfire songs. People are saying Don’t be a jerk if you can help it. Patronizing the other team is awful just as running up a score unnecessarily.

Even in the pros, players and coaches and fans appreciate generous players.

How could you lead the response with "there is more to winning than the point spread" when your argument is about your issue with the point spread, and you're responding to a post that states there is more to the sport than winning?

I dunno? My only point in all this is that when it's done egregiously there's every good reason to respond with such harsh response as a one game suspension.

 

[ZiprHead]

Nope - the goal of team sports is to win within the rules and spirit of the game which includes good sportsmanship.

You keep repeating the false premise that one wins by playing to your utmost and scoring as many points as possible for you to score.

Strange, I don't recall reading that in the basketball rule book large margins are unsportsmanlike conduct. Mind finding that anywhere from any school for any league?

Well, you won't find it for the same reason that you won't find anywhere in a book about how driving the same speed in the left lane of the highway as the guy in the right lane, but just far enough ahead to keep them out of your blind spot is a real asshole thing to do.

There's no law against "playing the game"

Yet the coach was suspended & drivers doing what you described aren't ticketed for it.

They are here in Michigan.

 

[Toni]

Nope - the goal of team sports is to win within the rules and spirit of the game which includes good sportsmanship.

You keep repeating the false premise that one wins by playing to your utmost and scoring as many points as possible for you to score.

Strange, I don't recall reading that in the basketball rule book large margins are unsportsmanlike conduct. Mind finding that anywhere from any school for any league?

Schools have codes of conduct for the school and so do athletic departments. Cheating on your math homework isn't illegal either but it will get you in trouble at most high schools.

 

[laughing dog]

It is quite possible Toni's "most people" refers to her observation of the world.

And somebody with the exact opposite opinion of Toni could say that 'most people' agree with them. It is not a useful observation to say 'most people I associate with have opinions similar to mine'.

You did not say that originally. But hey, that is you doing you - denying reality.

Toni made the claim that her opinion had weight because "the majority" of people in the thread agreed with her. Even if that were true, that is no more to the point than I'm sure most of Toni's friends would agree with her.

Well, you are a master of observations that are not useful, so I will take you word on it.

 

[Toni]

I pointed out that most people posting in this thread agreed with me that the coach was in the wrong for running up the score of a high school basketball game.

So... what?

EDIT: I note your loaded language of 'running up' the score.

It's not 'loaded language.' In the US, it is a term that most people who have attended at least high school level competitions are familiar with.

But go ahead. Keep on trying to nitpick. It won't make you any more correct.

 

[Gospel]

You aren't exactly right about it that drivers aren't ticketed. It is "driving recklessly" when someone does it in moderate traffic, and obstructing traffic when done in heavy traffic. People don't do it often enough for it to matter, either, usually.

When it's done in a context where it causes damage, usually there ARE consequences.

If they are not breaking speed limits and not going below reasonable speed it does nothing other than disturb you emotionally, just like 92-4. As for the damage, I'm certain some other traffic violation would be the actual cause of damage.

I dunno? My only point in all this is that when it's done egregiously there's every good reason to respond with such harsh response as a one game suspension.

And what exactly is it about Highschool students playing basketball the way it is intended to be played egregious? My guess is that it's something emotional and not tangible. Losing games isn't a lesson or experience lost. Losing by any margin is also not a lost opportunity to learn. I think the suspension is entirely based on an emotional response whether from the players (haven't read anything about that) the parents, or the school board. Basketball is a sport where you go all in and learn from doing so win or lose. It's the actual playing the game that is invigorating & working as a team while attempting (has nothing to do with succeeding) to overcome obstacles.

My experience with winning is it is just like losing, you want to go at it again because it's the act of working as a team, identifying strengths and weaknesses in your teammates and digging heals in to see if together we can push further next time.

Suspending the coach sends the message to all teams that "You're not here to play at your limits, you're here to just play as a team with all teams being a part of your team". Which I'm ok with as it's just another means to the same ends, however not reaching for limits is a bigger loss than a 1000-0 margin (IMO) because all the teams would be missing out on athletic growth.

 

[Jarhyn]

I pointed out that most people posting in this thread agreed with me that the coach was in the wrong for running up the score of a high school basketball game.

So... what?

EDIT: I note your loaded language of 'running up' the score.

It's not 'loaded language.' In the US, it is a term that most people who have attended at least high school level competitions are familiar with.

But go ahead. Keep on trying to nitpick. It won't make you any more correct.

Seriously, when I first read the title I was like "isn't there a term that means exactly what the title describes?"

I did forget the exact term until you used it though, since it's been 20 some years since it mattered for me.

 

[Gospel]

Nope - the goal of team sports is to win within the rules and spirit of the game which includes good sportsmanship.

You keep repeating the false premise that one wins by playing to your utmost and scoring as many points as possible for you to score.

Strange, I don't recall reading that in the basketball rule book large margins are unsportsmanlike conduct. Mind finding that anywhere from any school for any league?

Well, you won't find it for the same reason that you won't find anywhere in a book about how driving the same speed in the left lane of the highway as the guy in the right lane, but just far enough ahead to keep them out of your blind spot is a real asshole thing to do.

There's no law against "playing the game"

Yet the coach was suspended & drivers doing what you described aren't ticketed for it.

They are here in Michigan.

Guess I stand corrected.

 

[ZiprHead]

Nope - the goal of team sports is to win within the rules and spirit of the game which includes good sportsmanship.

You keep repeating the false premise that one wins by playing to your utmost and scoring as many points as possible for you to score.

Strange, I don't recall reading that in the basketball rule book large margins are unsportsmanlike conduct. Mind finding that anywhere from any school for any league?

Well, you won't find it for the same reason that you won't find anywhere in a book about how driving the same speed in the left lane of the highway as the guy in the right lane, but just far enough ahead to keep them out of your blind spot is a real asshole thing to do.

There's no law against "playing the game"

Yet the coach was suspended & drivers doing what you described aren't ticketed for it.

They are here in Michigan.

Guess I stand corrected.

The laws are the same in Florida.

Left lane bandits. I hate 'em.

 

[laughing dog]

Terrible dodge. Under what events or conditions would it be acceptable.

Deliberately embarrassing and shaming the other team for solely in order to embarrass and shame them would probably not be acceptable under most circumstances.

Now, you think that is what must have happened, and I don't think it must have happened. I can think of other interpretations consistent with the evidence, like the coach and players were 'in the zone' and that energy carried on naturally throughout the game. Or the players wanted to win by as many points as possible in order to beat their own record. Or there is no cultural expectation to 'hold back' if you are winning (as apparently there is no such cultural expectation in individual sports). Or the coach thought it would be wrong to tell his players to deliberately hold back and that it would be a condescending display.

The "zone" argument reveals a lack of understanding. A hs basketball game is 32 minutes. The coach at any time should have done something to show good sportsmanship. And, the coach did not offer that as an explanation for that drubbing. So, that"zone" argument appears more of a fantasy than a reality.

The "beat the record" argument is a slim possibility - do you have an iota of evidence to suggest it is valid in this case?

Clearly there was a cultural expectation to not run up the score because the coach was suspended.

If the coach thought it would be wrong to tell his players to hold back or to insist they slow down, etc... then the coach is an asshole.

Your failure of imagination at the universe of possibilities is not validation of your opinion.

Your ability to come up with fantasies is not a validation of your opinion.

Sometimes it is.

Terrible dodge. When is it morally desirable to be a first class asshole?

When a life is on the line. Your failure of imagination at the universe of possibilities is not validation of your opinion.

 

[laughing dog]

Nope - the goal of team sports is to win within the rules and spirit of the game which includes good sportsmanship.

You keep repeating the false premise that one wins by playing to your utmost and scoring as many points as possible for you to score.

Strange, I don't recall reading that in the basketball rule book large margins are unsportsmanlike conduct. Mind finding that anywhere from any school for any league?

I suggest you read the bolded part. The spirit of the game need not be in the rule book.

And, it is clear that for Sacred Heart's conference, their behavior was thought to violate the spirit of the game.

 

[Gospel]

The laws are the same in Florida.

Left lane bandits. I hate 'em.

"No person shall drive a motor vehicle at such a slow speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic, except when reduced speed is necessary for safe operation or in compliance with law."

That's the only relevant thing I know of in Florida. So no, there is no rule against going the speed limit in any configuration in the left, center, or right lane. Nothing in florida traffic laws prevent people from driving side by side as going the speed limit is not blocking or impeding traffic unless someone plans to break the speed limit.

 

[thebeave]

Losing a game just sucks. Anyone playing in a sporting event, whether as an individual or as part of a team has to learn to recognize and deal with the humiliation and depression of losing. Does it really sting that much less if you lose by 20 points, than by say 80? A bit, for sure, but I would think it would certainly sting also knowing that the winning team is bringing in its crappier players at half time to finish the game. Does the losing team say, "Whew, I feel some much better now that our opponents in the last half are the bench warming 98 lb weaklings! Now the game is not humiliating at all. Thanks guys!". I don't think so. They may be kids, but they're not dumb. They know what's happening and why. One could even argue that that its adding salt to the wound, as at the end of the game they would likely still get slammed badly, but by crappy players to boot. Reminds me of getting a worthless "participation award". They handed those out to the losing students when we had Field Day games in junior high. The students mostly just laughed about them and they ended up in the trash. It did nothing to ease the pain of losing or build up self esteem.

Also, one could also argue that losing the game unexpectedly at the last second by a Hail Mary is a more devastating loss than a slow, painful bleed that just drags on. Think about it...doesn't losing a parent suddenly in, say, a car crash, sting quite a bit more than a parent who withers away in hospice bed for a year? Look at this basketball game:



That had to be incredibly painful for the losing team (watch how dejected they are in the video) and on top of that the huge celebration by the winning team and the audience just rubs it in more. Is there unsportsmanlike behavior by the winning team going on there? Should they tamper their celebration with simple handshakes, rather than wildly jumping and dogpiling on the player who threw the ball, in order to not make the losing team feel worse?

ETA. Just read in the youtube comments that that full court shot sent the game into overtime, and they ultimately lost the game. Too bad, but the point still stands. Just pretend it was a game winning shot...this kind of win does happen pretty regularly.

 

[Gospel]

I suggest you read the bolded part. The spirit of the game need not be in the rule book.

Yes, it does if you plan to enforce rules based on "the spirit of the game". Having to suspend a coach from games multiple times would be grounds to have the coach removed from the role. So it is important for the rules to be explicit.

 

[Toni]

Losing a game just sucks. Anyone playing in a sporting event, whether as an individual or as part of a team has to learn to recognize and deal with the humiliation and depression of losing. Does it really sting that much less if you lose by 20 points, than by say 80? A bit, for sure, but I would think it would certainly sting also knowing that the winning team is bringing in its crappier players at half time to finish the game. Does the losing team say, "Whew, I feel some much better now that our opponents in the last half are the bench warming 98 lb weaklings! Now the game is not humiliating at all. Thanks guys!". I don't think so. They may be kids, but they're not dumb. They know what's happening and why. One could even argue that that its adding salt to the wound, as at the end of the game they would likely still get slammed badly, but by crappy players to boot. Reminds me of getting a worthless "participation award". They handed those out to the losing students when we had Field Day games in junior high. The students mostly just laughed about them and they ended up in the trash. It did nothing to ease the pain of losing or build up self esteem.

Also, one could also argue that losing the game unexpectedly at the last second by a Hail Mary is a more devastating loss than a slow, painful bleed that just drags on. Think about it...doesn't losing a parent suddenly in, say, a car crash, sting quite a bit more than a parent who withers away in hospice bed for a year? Look at this basketball game:



That had to be incredibly painful for the losing team (watch how dejected they are in the video) and on top of that the huge celebration by the winning team and the audience just rubs it in more. Is there unsportsmanlike behavior by the winning team going on there? Should they tamper their celebration with simple handshakes, rather than wildly jumping and dogpiling on the player who threw the ball, in order to not make the losing team feel worse?

ETA. Just read in the youtube comments that that full court shot sent the game into overtime, and they ultimately lost the game. Too bad, but the point still stands. Just pretend it was a game winning shot...this kind of win does happen pretty regularly.

Yeah, being beaten by 80 points feels a lot more like someone literally beat you up just to prove they could do it.

Perhaps a better question would be: does it feel better to beat someone by 80 points than by 20? I cannot imagine feeling good about giving another team such a beating. It makes me feel pretty awful just to think about it.

 

[Toni]

Since Toni did not say most people I associate with, what on earth are you talking about?

Of course she didn't say it. That's the point. She deliberately implied a ubiquity to her opinions that is not supported by evidence.

I just don’t think I am such an interesting person that anybody, much less two different posters needs to discuss what I did or did not mean by anything I write.

Lay off, both of you. If I want a debate about the meaning of the word is, I’ll find an old Bill Clinton YouTube or something. Yuck.

 

[ZiprHead]

The laws are the same in Florida.

Left lane bandits. I hate 'em.

"No person shall drive a motor vehicle at such a slow speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic, except when reduced speed is necessary for safe operation or in compliance with law."

That's the only relevant thing I know of in Florida. So no, there is no rule against going the speed limit in any configuration in the left, center, or right lane. Nothing in florida traffic laws prevent people from driving side by side as going the speed limit is not blocking or impeding traffic unless someone plans to break the speed limit.

Drivers must not continue to drive a vehicle in the far left lane when being overtaken by a faster moving vehicle, unless the driver is preparing for a left-hand turn at an intersection. Drivers failing to move from the far left lane will receive a noncriminal traffic infraction, punishable as a moving violation.

The RIGHT Lane

Language | Idioma English Español On multi-lane streets, roads and highways, section 316.081(3), Florida Statutes, requires that drivers drive in the right-hand lanes to prevent impeding the flow of traffic resulting in dangerous driving situations. DRIVE IN THE RIGHT LANE AND PASS ON THE LEFT...

www.flhsmv.gov

 

[Keith&Co.]

Yeah, being beaten by 80 points feels a lot more like someone literally beat you up just to prove they could do it.

Perhaps a better question would be: does it feel better to beat someone by 80 points than by 20? I cannot imagine feeling good about giving another team such a beating. It makes me feel pretty awful just to think about it.

I dunno.
I did have one coach who thought the worst thing in the world was to lose by one point. You spent the next thirty years replaying that game, revisiting every decision you ever made, every play, every tactic, every comment. Plus, all the players and their parents have their thoughts on where you could have gotten two more points.
HE would have preferred an 80 point loss. Take that loss with a clear conscience. The only decision to revisit was 'should i have gotten out of bed that day?' No.
Any parents suggesting, "What you should have done....!" Nope. Wouldn't have changed anything.

 

[Jarhyn]

the way it is intended to be played

This more than anything I think divides our viewpoints, and is I think the source of us talking past each other.

Specifically, we each hold a different intent to the game.

Personally, I hate playing competitive sports for the most part, because I am incapable of being competitive at them.

The people around me already know that asking me to play certain games or with certain players is, aforehand, gnostically asking me to have a bad time for their sake.

So when I join a game, and this must be stated that the rules of the game depend on the house, and the players, I join the game with the stated intent: I will play, primarily, for fun; if I May Not have fun, the intent of this game is broken.

I have fun in good clean games where I am playing against someone near my equal.

Otherwise, I throw down the ball and walk off the court. I can imagine other people in the situation, especially highschool age kids all high on the testosterone or estrogen or whatever to get a little hairy in the situation.

You have different intents.

I would never play you one on one in basketball. We would never have a game in the first place because we would not be able to agree to play under the same intent, nor would I be able to coach against you as a coach over our respective teams with the intents of players matching our own, even of varying skills.

It is not a decision I would make of my own free will, excepting that I find some basic intent that necessitates such a game.

Our intents are, for all intents and purposes with regards to basketball, too different to meet on a court.

The intentions of whoever censured the coach is the intent I bear.

The intentions of the coach match your own.

People involved here can continue to have their own intentions, but the intentions that match the program's are the ones that matter, and running afoul of those intentions can yield (honestly, very low in the situation) consequences.

The intentions of the program demand sporting conduct.

Winning is important, but once that bar has been reached, other things are important too, like getting the whole team off the bench. Or even just making sure enough asses, or the right asses, are warming that bench for that game.

 

[thebeave]

Losing a game just sucks. Anyone playing in a sporting event, whether as an individual or as part of a team has to learn to recognize and deal with the humiliation and depression of losing. Does it really sting that much less if you lose by 20 points, than by say 80? A bit, for sure, but I would think it would certainly sting also knowing that the winning team is bringing in its crappier players at half time to finish the game. Does the losing team say, "Whew, I feel some much better now that our opponents in the last half are the bench warming 98 lb weaklings! Now the game is not humiliating at all. Thanks guys!". I don't think so. They may be kids, but they're not dumb. They know what's happening and why. One could even argue that that its adding salt to the wound, as at the end of the game they would likely still get slammed badly, but by crappy players to boot. Reminds me of getting a worthless "participation award". They handed those out to the losing students when we had Field Day games in junior high. The students mostly just laughed about them and they ended up in the trash. It did nothing to ease the pain of losing or build up self esteem.

Also, one could also argue that losing the game unexpectedly at the last second by a Hail Mary is a more devastating loss than a slow, painful bleed that just drags on. Think about it...doesn't losing a parent suddenly in, say, a car crash, sting quite a bit more than a parent who withers away in hospice bed for a year? Look at this basketball game:



That had to be incredibly painful for the losing team (watch how dejected they are in the video) and on top of that the huge celebration by the winning team and the audience just rubs it in more. Is there unsportsmanlike behavior by the winning team going on there? Should they tamper their celebration with simple handshakes, rather than wildly jumping and dogpiling on the player who threw the ball, in order to not make the losing team feel worse?

ETA. Just read in the youtube comments that that full court shot sent the game into overtime, and they ultimately lost the game. Too bad, but the point still stands. Just pretend it was a game winning shot...this kind of win does happen pretty regularly.

Yeah, being beaten by 80 points feels a lot more like someone literally beat you up just to prove they could do it.

Perhaps a better question would be: does it feel better to beat someone by 80 points than by 20? I cannot imagine feeling good about giving another team such a beating. It makes me feel pretty awful just to think about it.

So, what's your opinion on a transwoman competing against "biological women (women who menstruate)" and totally blowing them out of the water? Like Lia the transwoman swimmer we talked about earlier? Do you feel awful just thinking about that disparity? I get the feeling a lot of people here, and in the general public think its OK. Or at least they don't vocally object to it much. I don't like it because its not a fair competition from the get-go. Its like a boxing competition between a heavy weight champion and a featherweight champion. Unlike the Sacred Heart game where you have same aged girls competing against each other. If you feel its OK for transwomen to compete with "biological women (women who menstruate)" and totally blow them out of the water, how do you reconcile that with your disdain of the Sacred Heart basketball game blowout?

 

[Gospel]

The laws are the same in Florida.

Left lane bandits. I hate 'em.

"No person shall drive a motor vehicle at such a slow speed as to impede or block the normal and reasonable movement of traffic, except when reduced speed is necessary for safe operation or in compliance with law."

That's the only relevant thing I know of in Florida. So no, there is no rule against going the speed limit in any configuration in the left, center, or right lane. Nothing in florida traffic laws prevent people from driving side by side as going the speed limit is not blocking or impeding traffic unless someone plans to break the speed limit.

Drivers must not continue to drive a vehicle in the far left lane when being overtaken by a faster moving vehicle, unless the driver is preparing for a left-hand turn at an intersection. Drivers failing to move from the far left lane will receive a noncriminal traffic infraction, punishable as a moving violation.

The RIGHT Lane

Language | Idioma English Español On multi-lane streets, roads and highways, section 316.081(3), Florida Statutes, requires that drivers drive in the right-hand lanes to prevent impeding the flow of traffic resulting in dangerous driving situations. DRIVE IN THE RIGHT LANE AND PASS ON THE LEFT...

www.flhsmv.gov

So this is saying that a faster-moving vehicle should be allowed to pass. What it does not say is that said faster-moving vehicles can break the speed limit to pass. If the vehicle is going the speed limit there is no need to pass as the vehicle(s) or not an impediment to traffic.

 

[TomC]

So, what's your opinion on a transwoman competing against "biological women (women who menstruate)" and totally blowing them out of the water? Like Lia the transwoman swimmer we talked about earlier? Do you feel awful just thinking about that disparity? I get the feeling a lot of people here, and in the general public think its OK. Or at least they don't vocally object to it much. I don't like it because its not a fair competition from the get-go. Its like a boxing competition between a heavy weight champion and a featherweight champion. Unlike the Sacred Heart game where you have same aged girls competing against each other. If you feel its OK for transwomen to compete with "biological women (women who menstruate)" and totally blow them out of the water, how do you reconcile that with your disdain of the Sacred Heart basketball game blowout?

I don't see Thomas as particularly relevant. I put her in a category with Barry Bonds and Lance Armstrong.

But here's the thing. I see a very different set of goals and methods for sports among young people than adults. And there's not a clear bright line between them. Kids develop at different rates.

But amongst youngsters the point is to develop a well rounded individual, not ruthless competitors. Teach kids the value of teamwork, focus, enjoying a healthy and fit body, that sort of thing. 88 point blowouts don't help much to achieve those sorts of goals.
Tom

 

[scombrid]

I find it interesting that indiatimes.com thinks a parochial school’s athletic code of conduct is news in the war against namby pamby wokeness. I’m gray haired. I was in a very conservative independent school athletic conference. We had slaughter rules against that kind of thing. But here we have the right wing outrage bots trolling the web for any story they can find, no matter how small and putting it in places like the WTF section of indiatimes.com. Yep, people reading India news are surely highly interested in athletic policies at Sacred Heart Academy. You know those academies are well known for toxic Wokeness.

 

[Metaphor]

The "zone" argument reveals a lack of understanding. A hs basketball game is 32 minutes. The coach at any time should have done something to show good sportsmanship. And, the coach did not offer that as an explanation for that drubbing. So, that"zone" argument appears more of a fantasy than a reality.

How on earth is that a rebuttal?

The "beat the record" argument is a slim possibility - do you have an iota of evidence to suggest it is valid in this case?

Not an iota. I was explaining to you the possibilities, remember? Possibilities you had ruled out without evidence.

Clearly there was a cultural expectation to not run up the score because the coach was suspended.

I was explaining to you the possibilities, remember?

But the coach being suspended does not mean there was a culture of not 'running up the score'. The girls team had won its previous games by wide margins, seemingly without comment from Sacred Heart or anyone else. It would be far stronger evidence to say the coach had been previously warned.

If the coach thought it would be wrong to tell his players to hold back or to insist they slow down, etc... then the coach is an asshole.

I disagree.

 

[Metaphor]

I find it interesting that indiatimes.com thinks a parochial school’s athletic code of conduct is news in the war against namby pamby wokeness. I’m gray haired. I was in a very conservative independent school athletic conference. We had slaughter rules against that kind of thing. But here we have the right wing outrage bots trolling the web for any story they can find, no matter how small and putting it in places like the WTF section of indiatimes.com. Yep, people reading India news are surely highly interested in athletic policies at Sacred Heart Academy. You know those academies are well known for toxic Wokeness.

It was reported in a variety of media outlets.

 

[Gospel]

Aww yes, the no-big-deal crowd has arrived. I think most of us already know that end times aren't the subject.

 

[scombrid]

It was echoed by a few outlets and it was the WTF section of indiatimes.com that was linked in the opening post. But yeah I am convinced that this is wokeness run amok at a prog Christian school.

 

[Toni]

It was echoed by a few outlets and it was the WTF section of indiatimes.com that was linked in the opening post. But yeah I am convinced that this is wokeness run amok at a prog Christian school.

When I was in high school half a million years ago, smack dab just north of the Bible Belt, and still mostly farmer and/or Baptist country, running up an 88 point lead in a high school basketball game would have been seen as a bit of pointless grandstanding by a team that didn’t respect the idea of sportsmanship and a lot of quiet derision towards such a bully of a coach would have been delivered amongst many a casual drop by between the menfolk. It was understood that there was no call for that sort of thing. People were pretty tough and self reliant and independent and all of that but they also showed up for each other in times of need because that was also the right thing to do. You helped your neighbor because who knew when it would be you standing there in need. And because it was the right thing to do.

So ‘woke?’ Well I guess for a certain demographic, acting like a decent human being is being ‘woke’ and being woke is somehow a bad thing. Such sentiment— that acting like a decent human being is somehow weak or indulgent- imo, is even more shameful than running up an 88 point lead in a high school basketball game. Fuck, most of those asses crying woke can’t even change their own tires or bait a hook, much less clean the fish they caught. They sure as hell don’t care about anybody but their own selves but they sure expect you to look out for them.

WTF is wrong with people.

 

[laughing dog]

The "zone" argument reveals a lack of understanding. A hs basketball game is 32 minutes. The coach at any time should have done something to show good sportsmanship. And, the coach did not offer that as an explanation for that drubbing. So, that"zone" argument appears more of a fantasy than a reality.

How on earth is that a rebuttal?

Perhaps you should explain why you think it is not.

The "beat the record" argument is a slim possibility - do you have an iota of evidence to suggest it is valid in this case?

Not an iota. I was explaining to you the possibilities, remember? Possibilities you had ruled out without evidence

In the real word, one rules out possibilities when there is no evidence,

Clearly there was a cultural expectation to not run up the score because the coach was suspended.

I was explaining to you the possibilities, remember?

If your "possibility" is contradicted by reality, it is a fantasy not a possibility.

But the coach being suspended does not mean there was a culture of not 'running up the score'. The girls team had won its previous games by wide margins, seemingly without comment from Sacred Heart or anyone else. It would be far stronger evidence to say the coach had been previously warned.

Wide margins and winning by 88 points are different matters.


The coach offered none of the mentioned "possibilities" as a reason in his apology. Which suggests those possibilities are conceptual not realistic.

So, in the absence of any evidence that supports your possibilities, do you still think the team's behavior was acceptable?

 

[Gun Nut]

In the Sacred Hill situation, the team did not ease up at all. The coach is a first class asshole and is lucky he was not suspended for more games.

There was a student in my high school who was mathematically gifted. I remember one particular test where he wrecked the curve for the entire rest of the class. Should he have been told to ease up, lest his mathematical gifts humiliate the other students? Should a long distance runner hold back from achieving a personal best if she is too far ahead of the competition? If not, why not?

You are not going to "get it". High School sports aren't for "maximising the pain your enemies feel".. They are for teaching lessons that include "sportsmanship", which was pretty clear to me how that was expressed by the program when dealing with "skill imbalances" - win the game with grace, not douchebaggery. If you don't know what that means, or you need some autistic level of certainty on point spreads at half-time, then you are not sufficiently knowledgeable about the nuances of competitive sports to comment on the difference between a sportsmanlike win and an unsportsmanlike win. What is a "press" in basketball? start there.
This isn't a case of "everyone gets a participation trophy".. this is a case of "not being an asshole" - I am afraid that's the part that may be alluding you.