Selfishness is easy, Caring is hard

[rousseau]

As I reach further and further into my twenties, soon to be thirties, I'm starting to notice a pattern in the people I've known throughout my life. For one, I've had *a lot* of good friends, but two *almost all of my relationships with people have more or less ended once the relationship stopped being beneficial for one, or both, of us*.

I don't intend to state that in a cynical way, but rather that I'm starting to recognize it as another aspect of human nature. In probabilistic terms, people are most likely to care about something when they get a positive return on that thing. When there's only so much time in the day, and so much energy to be spent on getting by, people and things which offer no positive return are less likely to be given attention or concern.

That sounds pretty intuitive at face, but I was thinking about it today and in the context of the little bit of angst I was feeling over the state of my relationships it was a bit more revelatory. I think in these terms a lot of human relationships, even if intimate, are a lot more impersonal than we realize. The forces at play in drawing two people together might not even be conscious a lot of the time, and then the forces that drive them apart aren't always conscious either.

This type of thinking would also have implications to almost every other moral problem: that is people just don't have the time or energy to give much of a shit about anything.

 

[TSwizzle]

It's an interesting subject. Is your experience down to the demands of modern life and maturing rather than a lack of others giving a shit ?

 

[rousseau]

It's an interesting subject. Is your experience down to the demands of modern life and maturing rather than a lack of others giving a shit ?

Yea, I guess you could say my perspective is maturing on this.

It has been a bit weird for me because I'm atypical when it comes to relationships. I'm a hanger-on and like to be a BFF with people. I've been known to go back and get in touch with those I haven't spoken to in half a decade, so when that type of behavior isn't reciprocated it can be off putting. Realizing lately that this just isn't how people are built.

 

[DBT]

People do care about themselves, and what concerns them personally, relatives, friends, nation, culture, entertainment, income, food on the table, house, car...all the investments in one's mental and physical wellbeing.

 

[TSwizzle]

It's an interesting subject. Is your experience down to the demands of modern life and maturing rather than a lack of others giving a shit ?

Yea, I guess you could say my perspective is maturing on this.

It has been a bit weird for me because I'm atypical when it comes to relationships. I'm a hanger-on and like to be a BFF with people. I've been known to go back and get in touch with those I haven't spoken to in half a decade, so when that type of behavior isn't reciprocated it can be off putting. Realizing lately that this just isn't how people are built.

I think as you grow older that a lot of the people you seem close to now, simply drift off. Some you may never hear from again, some will be peripheral. But there will be a few that will be constant. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

 

[credoconsolans]

As I got older, I realized some friends were not really close.

The ones who were close always stayed in contact, made the effort to call me, just cause, as I did them.

But others were not like that. With them, if I made the effort, they were friendly as always. But I had to make the effort. Always.

So, I decided to let them make the effort next time.

I never heard from them again.

I was glad to let them go.

I would rather spend what little personal time I had on people who cared as much about their friendship with me as I cared about my friendship with them.

The drama queens, the personality vampires that sucked all your time and emotions and were needy needy needy/taking taking taking and never growing or giving back? I cut them off too.

Life has been so much better and peaceful and friendships enjoyable.

I think it's age. As you leave your 20s you start to realize you're not going to be around forever and you want to make your life and the people in it quality.

 

[Under the Rose]

I think I shocked my mother the other day when I suggested that all relationships only exist to serve some reciprocity.

If there is no 'need' there is no reason for a relationship as life serves it's own purpose(s).

She took it pretty well but then again, considering events in our past, the current relationship between us should not even exist.

Mother's Day next Sunday...just a heads up so that the annual ritual can be observed by those who follow this arcane (and commercial) custom.

The only constant in life is change, with the possible exception of a mother's love.

 

[Unbeatable]

I wonder, is it because of all the good friends that you didn't notice this? Is it like "time flies when you're having fun"? Maybe all the positive feelings were distracting you from the essentially self-serving, transactional nature of human interaction, how much of a chore it is to sustain long term. I can't imagine what that would be like, having people around me and feeling like we actually know, understand, and value one another on some deep level.

 

[rousseau]

I wonder, is it because of all the good friends that you didn't notice this? Is it like "time flies when you're having fun"? Maybe all the positive feelings were distracting you from the essentially self-serving, transactional nature of human interaction, how much of a chore it is to sustain long term. I can't imagine what that would be like, having people around me and feeling like we actually know, understand, and value one another on some deep level.

Back in the day when I was going through university I was around all kinds of people, and awareness of human nature was just not a thing. If people were around, I spoke to them, if we became friends we became friends, if we didn't, we didn't. I think what I took for granted at the time was that the reason I had so many friendships was because I was studying in a place with lots of people my age, who all had little to no responsibility themselves, so it just worked.

Since then I've woken up a bit in this regard, and am also much more likely to be sceptical of people before I am fully accepting of them. I do sometimes find people I connect with, but it's a rarity.

 

[Bronzeage]

I wonder, is it because of all the good friends that you didn't notice this? Is it like "time flies when you're having fun"? Maybe all the positive feelings were distracting you from the essentially self-serving, transactional nature of human interaction, how much of a chore it is to sustain long term. I can't imagine what that would be like, having people around me and feeling like we actually know, understand, and value one another on some deep level.

Back in the day when I was going through university I was around all kinds of people, and awareness of human nature was just not a thing. If people were around, I spoke to them, if we became friends we became friends, if we didn't, we didn't. I think what I took for granted at the time was that the reason I had so many friendships was because I was studying in a place with lots of people my age, who all had little to no responsibility themselves, so it just worked.

Since then I've woken up a bit in this regard, and am also much more likely to be sceptical of people before I am fully accepting of them. I do sometimes find people I connect with, but it's a rarity.

Humans are capable of two distinct kinds of relationships. There maybe more, but most fall into one of two types, with sometimes a good bit of overlap.

The first we learn is the devotional type. This is family, fathers, mothers, siblings, children, miscellaneous others. We remain devoted to them, though life, separation, even death. It need not be a blood relative, as most spousal relationships are devotional, for the most part.

The second is the reciprocal. This is where our friends we know through school, work, and other functions of life fit. It's common to leave school and seldom, if ever, see those people again. When one leaves a job, all those relationship, however strong they once were, fade in importance.

One the primary reasons spousal relationships fail is because the reciprocal element breaks down. There may still be devotional love, but reciprocal needs are very important and often two devoted people cannot continue because the reciprocity is gone.

 

[fromderinside]

Is there enough room up here on mount pomposity for everyone. If not. Please strep aside. Only big bun wanters are entitled. Something is wrong with us and I've got the answer. We need to be civilized because if we aren't we tend to kill more and prosper less.

 

[Angry Floof]

Superiority complexes are easy; noticing you're not as superior as you think is hard.

 

[rousseau]

Yea, I guess you could say my perspective is maturing on this.

It has been a bit weird for me because I'm atypical when it comes to relationships. I'm a hanger-on and like to be a BFF with people. I've been known to go back and get in touch with those I haven't spoken to in half a decade, so when that type of behavior isn't reciprocated it can be off putting. Realizing lately that this just isn't how people are built.

I think as you grow older that a lot of the people you seem close to now, simply drift off. Some you may never hear from again, some will be peripheral. But there will be a few that will be constant. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Not much of a worry, but it can create an awkward dynamic sometimes. Slowly but surely getting better at picking up cues.. eventually.

 

[rousseau]

As I got older, I realized some friends were not really close.

The ones who were close always stayed in contact, made the effort to call me, just cause, as I did them.

But others were not like that. With them, if I made the effort, they were friendly as always. But I had to make the effort. Always.

So, I decided to let them make the effort next time.

I never heard from them again.

I was glad to let them go.

I would rather spend what little personal time I had on people who cared as much about their friendship with me as I cared about my friendship with them.

The drama queens, the personality vampires that sucked all your time and emotions and were needy needy needy/taking taking taking and never growing or giving back? I cut them off too.

Life has been so much better and peaceful and friendships enjoyable.

I think it's age. As you leave your 20s you start to realize you're not going to be around forever and you want to make your life and the people in it quality.

I read something like this in an article recently, and it was a great point.

Many of my relationships these days have become reflexive without a real *do either of us actually care any more* being asked. For instance, a few weeks ago I messaged an old old friend of mine who moved to the city in the past year, and we said we were going to get together. After speaking for an hour or so, though, I realized that we're now both completely different people from the time we were together. What had us bond before.. might not even be a thing now.

To that point, eventually you likely just need to focus on the truly positive relationships in your life.

 

[credoconsolans]

As I got older, I realized some friends were not really close.

The ones who were close always stayed in contact, made the effort to call me, just cause, as I did them.

But others were not like that. With them, if I made the effort, they were friendly as always. But I had to make the effort. Always.

So, I decided to let them make the effort next time.

I never heard from them again.

I was glad to let them go.

I would rather spend what little personal time I had on people who cared as much about their friendship with me as I cared about my friendship with them.

The drama queens, the personality vampires that sucked all your time and emotions and were needy needy needy/taking taking taking and never growing or giving back? I cut them off too.

Life has been so much better and peaceful and friendships enjoyable.

I think it's age. As you leave your 20s you start to realize you're not going to be around forever and you want to make your life and the people in it quality.

I read something like this in an article recently, and it was a great point.

Many of my relationships these days have become reflexive without a real *do either of us actually care any more* being asked. For instance, a few weeks ago I messaged an old old friend of mine who moved to the city in the past year, and we said we were going to get together. After speaking for an hour or so, though, I realized that we're now both completely different people from the time we were together. What had us bond before.. might not even be a thing now.

To that point, eventually you likely just need to focus on the truly positive relationships in your life.

Yeah, some I had to let go were painful. One tried to hold on, but in the end, as you said, we turned into two completely different people. I was still holding onto our earlier intimacy when it was just a small close circle of friends, spending time with each other, talking into the night, being there for each other...to adults with separate relationships where we no longer confided in each other and the parties we used to host, turned into big affairs with strangers invited and business partners for a tax write off, where I could barely get two words with him during it because he was too busy playing host.

It's what he always wanted, I imagine, but being at one of his get togethers with him and 100 of his closest friends was not what I wanted.

So it was painful but we finally cut contact.

 

[rousseau]

Back in the day when I was going through university I was around all kinds of people, and awareness of human nature was just not a thing. If people were around, I spoke to them, if we became friends we became friends, if we didn't, we didn't. I think what I took for granted at the time was that the reason I had so many friendships was because I was studying in a place with lots of people my age, who all had little to no responsibility themselves, so it just worked.

Since then I've woken up a bit in this regard, and am also much more likely to be sceptical of people before I am fully accepting of them. I do sometimes find people I connect with, but it's a rarity.

Humans are capable of two distinct kinds of relationships. There maybe more, but most fall into one of two types, with sometimes a good bit of overlap.

The first we learn is the devotional type. This is family, fathers, mothers, siblings, children, miscellaneous others. We remain devoted to them, though life, separation, even death. It need not be a blood relative, as most spousal relationships are devotional, for the most part.

The second is the reciprocal. This is where our friends we know through school, work, and other functions of life fit. It's common to leave school and seldom, if ever, see those people again. When one leaves a job, all those relationship, however strong they once were, fade in importance.

One the primary reasons spousal relationships fail is because the reciprocal element breaks down. There may still be devotional love, but reciprocal needs are very important and often two devoted people cannot continue because the reciprocity is gone.

I don't disagree with you, although I find the word 'devotional' interesting.

- profound dedication; consecration
- earnest attachment to a cause, person, etc

I'd almost want to split devotional into 'devotional' or 'obligatory'. I have family members who are dedicated to me, but definitely not out of earnestness. Maybe at that point you get a bit of a grey area between devotional and reciprocal. A sibling, or cousin, for instance, has an interest in maintaining positive ties with you, but it's contingent on so little that they don't need to put in much effort.

 

[Eric H]

One the primary reasons spousal relationships fail is because the reciprocal element breaks down. There may still be devotional love, but reciprocal needs are very important and often two devoted people cannot continue because the reciprocity is gone.

I have only been married for thirty years, the first twenty nine are the hardest, then it just gets tougher. I would say it is worth making all the extra effort to stay together.

 

[Togo]

I'm finding it a little strange that the term 'reciprocity' is used to refer to people you enjoy spending time with.

The big change at the end of my 20's was a collapse in the amount of free time people had. More people tend to be working, have long-term relationships, a home they care about, and possibly even children. That means there is a big change in how much time you have. The amount of time you want to spend just hanging out goes way down.

The way to get around it is to combine people with activities. These can be fun things that you wouldn't otherwise do, like skydiving or going on holiday. They can be ordinary things that everyone has to do, like clothes shopping. They can be ordinary things that are more fun in a group, like going to a film, or the park, or the beach. Or they can even be boring tasks, like baby sitting or gardening. Try and work in people into these activities, and you'll see more people. The more people, the better, because they'll mostly be suffering from the same problem. But if you're pitching for dedicated time with just you and one other person, then it can be tough to keep in touch. Not because they secretly hate you, but because you're making them choose between their home life and their other friends and you. If you're in someone's top ten people to be with, and they have half as much time as they did before, you'll see them 5% of the time you did before. Unless you arrange a group. It's a pain, but it's how life works.

Apparently it starts to wear off again when you hit 50 or so.

 

[Togo]

I'm finding it a little strange that the term 'reciprocity' is used to refer to people you enjoy spending time with.

The big change at the end of my 20's was a collapse in the amount of free time people had. More people tend to be working, have long-term relationships, a home they care about, and possibly even children. That means there is a big change in how much time you have. The amount of time you want to spend just hanging out goes way down.

The way to get around it is to combine people with activities. These can be fun things that you wouldn't otherwise do, like skydiving or going on holiday. They can be ordinary things that everyone has to do, like clothes shopping. They can be ordinary things that are more fun in a group, like going to a film, or the park, or the beach. Or they can even be boring tasks, like baby sitting or gardening. Try and work in people into these activities, and you'll see more people. The more people, the better, because they'll mostly be suffering from the same problem. But if you're pitching for dedicated time with just you and one other person, then it can be tough to keep in touch. Not because they secretly hate you, but because you're making them choose between their home life and their other friends and you. If you're in someone's top ten people to be with, and they have half as much time as they did before, you'll see them 5% of the time you did before. Unless you arrange a group. It's a pain, but it's how life works.

Apparently it starts to wear off again when you hit 50 or so.

 

[rousseau]

I'm finding it a little strange that the term 'reciprocity' is used to refer to people you enjoy spending time with.

The big change at the end of my 20's was a collapse in the amount of free time people had. More people tend to be working, have long-term relationships, a home they care about, and possibly even children. That means there is a big change in how much time you have. The amount of time you want to spend just hanging out goes way down.

The way to get around it is to combine people with activities. These can be fun things that you wouldn't otherwise do, like skydiving or going on holiday. They can be ordinary things that everyone has to do, like clothes shopping. They can be ordinary things that are more fun in a group, like going to a film, or the park, or the beach. Or they can even be boring tasks, like baby sitting or gardening. Try and work in people into these activities, and you'll see more people. The more people, the better, because they'll mostly be suffering from the same problem. But if you're pitching for dedicated time with just you and one other person, then it can be tough to keep in touch. Not because they secretly hate you, but because you're making them choose between their home life and their other friends and you. If you're in someone's top ten people to be with, and they have half as much time as they did before, you'll see them 5% of the time you did before. Unless you arrange a group. It's a pain, but it's how life works.

Apparently it starts to wear off again when you hit 50 or so.

At the end of the day reciprocity is predictive, though. It sheds a light on people that most don't want to see, but it is the case.

I tried to avoid focusing on it's negative connotations in the original post, though, and instead framed it as an energy problem.

Most people, if it were in there power, would care more about most things and people, but it's not, so we're forced to prioritize.