Should the west defend democracy in Taiwan?

[Loren Pechtel]

Or maybe the Philippines... China has already built up islands and established military bases in areas around Philippine territorial waters so the territorial waters are now being disputed. After all, the world did close its eyes to China annexing Tibet several decades ago.

Surely China should be allowed lebensraum.

Ah yes. Of course, China is exactly like Nazi Germany, with the exact same geo-political and historical context. Of course, the situations should be treated exactly the same. How stupid of me.

Not exactly but you're talking the same approach--wring your hands and let them conquer whatever they want.

 

[lpetrich]

I find the One-China policy incredibly childish. Why can't the governments of Communist China and Taiwan agree that they are the rulers of only their respective territories? West Germany and East Germany could do it, and South Korea and North Korea apparently can.

 

[bilby]

I find the One-China policy incredibly childish. Why can't the governments of Communist China and Taiwan agree that they are the rulers of only their respective territories? West Germany and East Germany could do it, and South Korea and North Korea apparently can.

At no time have the two Koreas accepted the division of the peninsula - indeed, there remains an official state of war between North and South.

Equally, West Germany recognised East Germans as their citizens throughout the division of the country, and reunification was simply a formalisation of official West German policy.

The PRC has always considered Taiwan to be part of China, and the Taiwanese continue to claim all of China is under their rule (despite the obvious fact that they cannot enforce that claim).

Indeed, just about the only thing Taipei and Beijing agree on is that there is only one China. It's a civil war - one which the communists mostly won, but having been stymied by the strait, couldn't finish. It's been a cold civil war since the 1940s, but it's a civil war nonetheless - just like Korea and similar to Germany.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I find the One-China policy incredibly childish. Why can't the governments of Communist China and Taiwan agree that they are the rulers of only their respective territories? West Germany and East Germany could do it, and South Korea and North Korea apparently can.

At no time have the two Koreas accepted the division of the peninsula - indeed, there remains an official state of war between North and South.

Equally, West Germany recognised East Germans as their citizens throughout the division of the country, and reunification was simply a formalisation of official West German policy.

The PRC has always considered Taiwan to be part of China, and the Taiwanese continue to claim all of China is under their rule (despite the obvious fact that they cannot enforce that claim).

Indeed, just about the only thing Taipei and Beijing agree on is that there is only one China. It's a civil war - one which the communists mostly won, but having been stymied by the strait, couldn't finish. It's been a cold civil war since the 1940s, but it's a civil war nonetheless - just like Korea and similar to Germany.

I don't know if I'd call it a civil war. The difference is that Taiwan was never really belonged to China. China had a civil war, some Chinese fled to an island that the didn't own, now they want to claim the island. There are native Taiwanese who have never been Chinese in their history. If we're going to go back to colonial rule, maybe the UN should give the island back to Holland who controlled the island for 25 years or so in the 1700s.

 

[funinspace]

I find the One-China policy incredibly childish. Why can't the governments of Communist China and Taiwan agree that they are the rulers of only their respective territories? West Germany and East Germany could do it, and South Korea and North Korea apparently can.

At no time have the two Koreas accepted the division of the peninsula - indeed, there remains an official state of war between North and South.

Equally, West Germany recognised East Germans as their citizens throughout the division of the country, and reunification was simply a formalisation of official West German policy.

The PRC has always considered Taiwan to be part of China, and the Taiwanese continue to claim all of China is under their rule (despite the obvious fact that they cannot enforce that claim).

Indeed, just about the only thing Taipei and Beijing agree on is that there is only one China. It's a civil war - one which the communists mostly won, but having been stymied by the strait, couldn't finish. It's been a cold civil war since the 1940s, but it's a civil war nonetheless - just like Korea and similar to Germany.

I don't know if I'd call it a civil war. The difference is that Taiwan was never really belonged to China. China had a civil war, some Chinese fled to an island that the didn't own, now they want to claim the island. There are native Taiwanese who have never been Chinese in their history. If we're going to go back to colonial rule, maybe the UN should give the island back to Holland who controlled the island for 25 years or so in the 1700s.

The mainland Chinese (Qing Dynasty) controlled Taiwan from 1683, even if they treated it like a step child territory, until they surrendered it 1895 to the Japanese. That is 202 years, a hell of a long time. Today, Taiwan is ethnically 95% Han and only 2.4% 'native' or aboriginal. Not that this is an argument that the PRC has the right to take it by force, any more than the US had the right to invade Iraq, to bomb Libya into chaos, to arm and assist crazies in & around Syria, or help the Saudis destroy Yemen...

 

[J842P]

I find the One-China policy incredibly childish. Why can't the governments of Communist China and Taiwan agree that they are the rulers of only their respective territories? West Germany and East Germany could do it, and South Korea and North Korea apparently can.

At no time have the two Koreas accepted the division of the peninsula - indeed, there remains an official state of war between North and South.

Equally, West Germany recognised East Germans as their citizens throughout the division of the country, and reunification was simply a formalisation of official West German policy.

The PRC has always considered Taiwan to be part of China, and the Taiwanese continue to claim all of China is under their rule (despite the obvious fact that they cannot enforce that claim).

Indeed, just about the only thing Taipei and Beijing agree on is that there is only one China. It's a civil war - one which the communists mostly won, but having been stymied by the strait, couldn't finish. It's been a cold civil war since the 1940s, but it's a civil war nonetheless - just like Korea and similar to Germany.

I don't know if I'd call it a civil war. The difference is that Taiwan was never really belonged to China. China had a civil war, some Chinese fled to an island that the didn't own, now they want to claim the island. There are native Taiwanese who have never been Chinese in their history. If we're going to go back to colonial rule, maybe the UN should give the island back to Holland who controlled the island for 25 years or so in the 1700s.

Of course it is a civil war. The ROC does not represent the native Taiwanese, but the Han majority on the island. Both claim to be the true government of China.

As to the UN, obviously China wouldn't let it happen.

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Or maybe the Philippines... China has already built up islands and established military bases in areas around Philippine territorial waters so the territorial waters are now being disputed. After all, the world did close its eyes to China annexing Tibet several decades ago.

Surely China should be allowed lebensraum.

Ah yes. Of course, China is exactly like Nazi Germany, with the exact same geo-political and historical context. Of course, the situations should be treated exactly the same. How stupid of me.

Not exactly but you're talking the same approach--wring your hands and let them conquer whatever they want.

Not at all. And I'm not wringing my hands. I simply don't care. That war is over and it was lost by the ROC.

And again, the situation is nothing like Germany in the 1930's, so references to appeasement and lebensraum are silly.

- - - Updated - - -

Or maybe the Philippines... China has already built up islands and established military bases in areas around Philippine territorial waters so the territorial waters are now being disputed. After all, the world did close its eyes to China annexing Tibet several decades ago.

Surely China should be allowed lebensraum.

Ah yes. Of course, China is exactly like Nazi Germany, with the exact same geo-political and historical context. Of course, the situations should be treated exactly the same. How stupid of me.

Who the fuck said anything like "exactly like Nazi Germany" (although Germany, at the time of annexing Austria, was much less oppressive of its citizens than China is today)? Although the world has recognized Chamberland apologizing for a county's expansionist policies is a really bad idea. It was the reason for forming NATO - to deter Soviet expansionism.

Do you have no problem with the annexing of Tibet and the ensuing slaughter? Do you have no concern with expansion into Philippine territory?

Yeah, and Austria wasn't claiming to be the True Third Reich either.

And quite frankly, I don't care about Tibet more than I care about any other conquest of territory in the world. Probably less because fuck the Tibetan buddhists and their medieval kingdom that kept millions as essentially serfs to a priestly class. The current Dalai Lama seems like a nice guy I guess.

But why you seem to care so much about this particular conquest? I never really see you as particularly bothered by the Palestinian issue in those threads. Taiwan isn't even recognized as a country, it is more of a satellite from the American cold-war hysteria.

Again, sucks to be them. But the Cold War is long over.

Anyway, wake me up when China actually invades. It's not like this sort of news doesn't come up every other year anyway.

 

[Alcoholic Actuary]

There are something like 15 levels of diplomacy we could undertake in order to 'defend democracy in Taiwan'. I don't think dropping the gloves should be the first thing we try.

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