South Carolina Flag Debate

[Nice Squirrel]

http://www.theonion.com/article/sou...lMarketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview:1:Default

COLUMBIA, SC—Shooing away protesters from the brown, debris-covered lawn, state lawmakers reportedly refused Monday to remove the Confederate flag from South Carolina’s Capitol Trailer. “Go on, git!” said shirtless South Carolina state representative Jeff Duncan, who sources confirmed tossed an empty 40-ounce bottle of Colt 45 at a group of demonstrators while reclining in a battered, dirt-caked plastic kiddie pool.

So what do you think?

 

[Nice Squirrel]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/21/politics/south-carolina-confederate-flag-debate/index.html

The flag debate is quickly becoming a major political issue ahead of the state's crucial first-in-the-South presidential primary next year. Many Republicans, including Mike Huckabee and Rick Santorum, have avoided taking a position on the flag, though Jeb Bush highlighted his role in removing the flag from Florida's Capitol in 2001. Democratic frontrunner Hillary Clinton forcefully called on Americans to discuss racial divisions but hasn't weighed in specifically on whether South Carolina should remove the flag from the Capitol complex.


Gov. Nikki Haley, who has said the issue is worth a conversation, is under pressure to convene a special session to take up the flag question. That's unlikely to happen but Republican state Rep. Doug Brannon has already committed to introducing a bill to remove the flag when the legislature convenes in January.

That effort will face stiff headwinds.

As part of a compromise in 2000, lawmakers agreed to remove the Confederate flag from the top of the Capitol dome and place it across the street while also adding a monument to African-Americans. But the legislation mandated that only a supermajority of the legislature could change that set-up going forward.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Read this short story.

 

[Ford]

Well lemme tell ya, my great great grand pappy fought and died for the South in the War of Northern Aggression. Then when he came home he found that the damned Yanks had burned down his modest plantation and freed all of his, um, workers.

It was a tough time for 'ole Duke (that was his name)...raising a young family with no house, no help, and what with fatal wounds and all. But he persisted! And great grand pappy (they called him "Young Duke" or "Duke What Ain't Fatally Wounded") finally got the farm back up and running with some fine folks who agreed to crop for a share. They sure was happy, because they were free to live in their own separate housing and work as hard as they liked.

So now the Yankees want us to forget all that great history because some kid who wore some kinda African flag on his jacket shot up a Christian church? I mean, Rhodesia is in Africa, I think, and South Africa is definitely in Africa so this is really African on Christian crime, so why is we got to take the blame?

The South Will Rise Again!!!

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Perspective? The South Carolina Flag only became the battle flag around 1963, during the Civil Rights fight. Nuff said.

Culture my ass. If you want to be reminded what a bunch of assholes lived in your state decades and a century ago, you don't need a flag to do that. You can read a book.

 

[NobleSavage]

Was the Dukes of Hazard racist? The General Lee had that stupid flag on the roof. I'm not trying to make a point. I've never lived in the South or spent much time there so I don't know the motive of people who display it.

 

[Mumbles]

Take it down, it's only there to protest the Civil Rights movement.

Next!

 

[J842P]

Was the Dukes of Hazard racist? The General Lee had that stupid flag on the roof. I'm not trying to make a point. I've never lived in the South or spent much time there so I don't know the motive of people who display it.


View attachment 3338

I don't know enough about the show to comment, but that is certainly a symbol of an oppressively racist state on that car.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Read this short story.

So, the goddamn flag is flying over the State Capitol. Don’t take it down, just take it.

..

 

[AthenaAwakened]

From another thread

When you fly the confederate flag, you aren't celebrating this

View attachment 3329

You are supporting this

The new Constitution has put at rest forever all the agitating questions relating to our peculiar institutions—African slavery as it exists among us—the proper status of the negro in our form of civilization. This was the immediate cause of the late rupture and present revolution. Jefferson, in his forecast, had anticipated this, as the "rock upon which the old Union would split." He was right. What was conjecture with him, is now a realized fact. But whether he fully comprehended the great truth upon which that rock stood and stands, may be doubted. The prevailing ideas entertained by him and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were, that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature; that it was wrong in principle, socially, morally and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with; but the general opinion of the men of that day was, that, somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent and pass away... Those ideas, however, were fundamentally wrong. They rested upon the assumption of the equality of races. This was an error. It was a sandy foundation, and the idea of a Government built upon it—when the "storm came and the wind blew, it fell."

Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and moral condition.

. . . look with confidence to the ultimate universal acknowledgement of the truths upon which our system rests? It is the first government ever instituted upon the principles in strict conformity to nature, and the ordination of Providence, in furnishing the materials of human society. Many governments have been founded upon the principle of the subordination and serfdom of certain classes of the same race; such were and are in violation of the laws of nature. Our system commits no such violation of nature's laws.

 Cornerstone Speech

 

[SimpleDon]

South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley and Republican senators Lindsey Graham and Tim Scott are now calling for the removal of the Confederate battle flag from the grounds of the state Capitol.

It is an utter disgrace that it took the murder of nine people for them to come to the realization that this is a blatantly racist symbol.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

South Carolina Gov. Nikki Haley and Republican senators Lindsey Graham and Tim Scott are now calling for the removal of the Confederate battle flag from the grounds of the state Capitol.

It is an utter disgrace that it took the murder of nine people for them to come to the realization that this is a blatantly racist symbol.

God acts in mysterious ways.

Here is the funny thing... the flag may not go away.

 

[Mumbles]

From another thread

When you fly the confederate flag, you aren't celebrating this

View attachment 3329

You are supporting this

 Cornerstone Speech

...and with that...

Salutes

 

[fast]

I very much enjoyed that show.

 

[dystopian]

So now the Yankees want us to forget all that great history because some kid who wore some kinda African flag on his jacket shot up a Christian church? I mean, Rhodesia is in Africa, I think, and South Africa is definitely in Africa so this is really African on Christian crime, so why is we got to take the blame?

The trick in making good satire is making sure the characters you write into it have a plausible level of ignorance.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I´m looking at this as a complete outsider. I don´t get the tiff. The Civil War was a thing for the South. A big thing. They need to be allowed to have pride about it (and fly the symbols) without feeling shame about it. The fact that the South supported slavery and the North didn´t is irrelevant. The North weren´t fighting against slavery. They were just as racist. The guy who did the mass shootings in Norway flew the Norwegian flag. They´re not about to remove that from their parliament. That kid might as well have used a Union flag. Then this debate wouldn´t exist.

If I remember my history correctly the Union reconstruction thing was horrendously corrupt and crappy. So the southerners felt butthurt, for good reason, and decided to fly, not the Confederate flag, but the flag of general Lee. Which now has replaced the Confederate flag as a symbol completely. I don´t understand how anybody can have a problem with that. It also looks cool IMHO.

 

[Mumbles]

*breathes*

Okay, let's get to it. Short Version, no links.

The southern leaders were initially angry because northerners often opposed the "right" for southerners to travel to the north, find a free black person, and kidnap and enslave them. In fact, General Lee did exactly this to roughly 1000 people during the war.

They were also angry because their invasions of other countries, in the thought of creating a slave-holding empire were thwarted.

They became so angry because Lincoln was elected, that they committed treason, and waged the most proportionally costly war in US history.

Later on, this very flag was taken up by the largest terrorist group in US history, the Klu Klux Klan, a group devoted to violence against black people.

It was later used as the chosen symbol of segregation and the lie of "separate but equal" - meaning, the continued oppression of black people., which is precisely why it is flying where it now is.

And - suprise! - it was happily displayed by the 21 year old white terrorist who walked into the historical black church, sat down and read the bible with them, and then slaughtered them.

That flag represents ALL OF THAT.

I love the idea that it's about "the South". No, it's not. It's about certain white southerners. Specifically, it's about white supremacists.

The guy who used the flag of Norway used it incorrectly. The 21 year old terrorist used the confederate battle flag correctly - with hate.

 

[DrZoidberg]

*breathes*

Okay, let's get to it. Short Version, no links.

The southern leaders were initially angry because northerners often opposed the "right" for southerners to travel to the north, find a free black person, and kidnap and enslave them. In fact, General Lee did exactly this to roughly 1000 people during the war.

They were also angry because their invasions of other countries, in the thought of creating a slave-holding empire were thwarted.

They became so angry because Lincoln was elected, that they committed treason, and waged the most proportionally costly war in US history.

Later on, this very flag was taken up by the largest terrorist group in US history, the Klu Klux Klan, a group devoted to violence against black people.

It was later used as the chosen symbol of segregation and the lie of "separate but equal" - meaning, the continued oppression of black people., which is precisely why it is flying where it now is.

And - suprise! - it was happily displayed by the 21 year old white terrorist who walked into the historical black church, sat down and read the bible with them, and then slaughtered them.

That flag represents ALL OF THAT.

I love the idea that it's about "the South". No, it's not. It's about certain white southerners. Specifically, it's about white supremacists.

The guy who used the flag of Norway used it incorrectly. The 21 year old terrorist used the confederate battle flag correctly - with hate.

But they need a flag to fly. Symbols are important. What flag or symbol would you suggest the former Confederate states use instead that is as strong? What the Confederate flag has going for it is that it´s a very strong symbol. I mean, purely semiotically. It looks good, specifically when lined up next to the Union flag. Compare it with the swastika. Also a very strong symbol. Which is why it is still one of the main symbols for Buddhism and Hinduism no matter the Nazi shenanigans.

 

[Mumbles]

But they need a flag to fly.

Why? My grandparents were from the south, and they certainly wouldn't want to fly that flag. Probably because it was the chosen flag of the very people that forced them to flee their homes.

Symbols are important.

Exactly. And I am acknowledging it's importance.

What flag or symbol would you suggest the former Confederate states use instead that is as strong?

I don't have a suggestion. They can come up with something new.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Why? My grandparents were from the south, and they certainly wouldn't want to fly that flag. Probably because it was the chosen flag of the very people that forced them to flee their homes.

Symbols are important.

Exactly. And I am acknowledging it's importance.

Hmm... Sweden raped and looted half of Europe in the 17´th century and carried off all their stuff to Sweden. We still haven´t given any of it it back. So I guess now it´s our stuff. Anyhoo... Sweden was not nice.

We still fly the Swedish flag happily. It doesn´t only symbolise rape, robbery and murder. It also symbolises a bunch of positive things. Most importantly it symbolises all the stuff that sets Sweden apart from the rest of Europe.

I just want to be clear here. I´m not a patriot. I don´t like patriotism, nationalism or any national pride. I think it´s stupid and unhelpful. But I still acknowledge that lots of people have very low self esteem, and they seem to need these kinds of symbols to hang on to as a way of gaining a confidence them seem unable to muster all on their own. I think it would be a shame to rob them of this. Not everybody is as cool as you or me.

What flag or symbol would you suggest the former Confederate states use instead that is as strong?

I don't have a suggestion. They can come up with something new.

That´s not how symbols work. It´s probably got to be one of the flags the Confederacy actually used. Or a thing or symbol they used back then that can go on a flag. Symbols need to capture emotions somehow. Not all symbols can do that. It needs to be something powerful. And the more it annoys non-Southerners the more powerful the symbol becomes. That´s a thing about patriotic symbols. They´re just as much a symbol for something as against something.