South Carolina police officer investigated after slamming student to ground at Spring Valley High

[ronburgundy]

No. She was not actively resisting. Another video you didn't actually watch. She didn't even speak out, but remained completely silent.

Her verbalizations have zero bearing on her actively resisting. She fought against the cops efforts to pick her up out of the desk. The desk went backward due to the force she exerted.

She would have used her own feet to stop it from sliding and the tug of war would have resulted in it toppling over precisely because it is top-heavy like you pointed out. That approach could easily have resulted in worse injury than she actually obtained and laughing dog would throw you in prison for assault. BTW, he did not try to pick the desk up. He tried to scoop her up out of the desk and she lunged backward pushing her feet against the floor which sent the desk toppling backward. She went to the ground because she physically fought back as she would have no matter what magical method you think you would have used.

A lot of speculation on your part, completely unsupported by anything other than your imagination. Certainly not by viewing the video. Which depicted assault by the police officer.

Every single claim of what he could/should have done differently is pure speculation, the difference is that mine don't contradict physics and a reasoned analysis of the facts of the situation such as the fact that she did and would have physically resisted any effort to remove her or get her phone.

NO phones/electronics. My daughter had her phone confiscated more than once and I had to come to the school to get it. If the teacher (or administrator) had just taken the phone, there's a good chance she would have followed it out the room.

And how would you get the phone from her? By force would be the only way and like she did here, she would physically resist very easily resulting in injury, a broken finger, etc., and laughing dog would throw you in prison for assault, because by his standard cops should get the same punishment a non-cop would get for the same action.

Bottom line is that there were only 2 options, use of force that could result in injury or do nothing and allow her to continue to sit there on her phone. If the latter is chosen, then the cop should never have been called because forcing compliance is a definitional part of law enforcement.

The girl had in fact, put her cell phone away when she was ordered out of the classroom.

All the more reason why proposed solutions of simply taking her phone away are invalid and would require force and violence. They would have had to hold her down and "assault" her by reaching into her pockets.

Which is why she didn't comply: she wasn't violating class policy.

She was still actively violating class policy by not leaving the classroom. She had resisted putting it away when asked and only did so after being told to leave. At that point she should have been and was required to leave the class as instructed. Letting her remain because she finally put it away only after being told to leave would completely invalidate any policy about phones or any other disruption. It would mean, do whatever you want and disregard the teacher, so long as you stop after being ordered to leave. Also, the fact that she refused to put it away until ordered to leave means that if being made to leave was not actually enforced, it would have had no effect and she would have just took it out again. That isn't speculation, that is a rational analysis of human behavior based upon the facts and established theories of human behavior.

Do you know what the source of video for this incident is? It's cell phone video taken by other students. If you click on the link I provided (which I realize you absolutely will not do because you've already made up your mind and do not need to be confused by facts or eye witnesses), you will note that the other students were traumatized by the events, made worse by arresting another student for speaking out against the brutal assault carried out by a police officer.

I watched it, but unlike you I paid attention to the actual facts it shows regarding her clear physical resistance and that being the central cause of her toppling backward in her desk, and what this clearly implies about the falseness of all claims that she or her phone could have been removed without any force or chance of injury.
Nothing else regarding the other student's reactions or one getting arrested for merely objecting is relevant to what I said which speaks only to falseness of the many claims that force was unnecessary to remove her or her phone from the class.

 

[Toni]

If that girl refused to leave the classroom when asked repeatedly (and I'm assuming the request for removal was justified only to pose the question), just how was the officer supposed to remove her if not by force? Did he slam her to the ground or did the desk flip over backward?

I saw a 4'8" 60 year old French teacher physically remove a 200 lb fatass 10th grader from my 8th grade French class. He was being disruptive. She said leave. He ignored her. She dragged him and his desk into the hall and locked him out of the room. She managed this without tipping him onto the floor. I'm pretty sure the school cop didn't need to go full combat mode to achieve the goal of forceful removal of a mouthy little girl from the room.

Yeah. My kid came home from school telling about his under 5 ft tall, under 100 lb teacher taking a knife off of a student who towered above her at a very lumpy 6 ft tall. Took him to the school office herself. The rest of the class did not leave their seats or the classroom but waited for her to return and finish the lesson. She was and remains one of my kids' and my favorite teachers, ever.

 

[braces_for_impact]

Some kids act out like that looking to prove they have power. This is the same thing as the idiot kids who walk slowly across a street just to demonstrate they can make you stop.

Yeah, yeah, you proved to yourself you can make me stop. Congrats. You're the only one who apparently didn't know you had that power.

So yeah, stupid kid. I can't watch video streaming, but I can picture the scene and have been in it.
Sometimes, you have to just wait until the end of class, lose the one and she has in-school suspension from then out. And a guidance counselor.

When you ask yourself, "what's more important losing one class, or refraining from assaulting a kid?" It's a lot like the question, "Does this arrest NEED to happen? So badly that I am willing to kill over it?"

The police (or resource officers) do not need to "win" every encounter in order to keep order. They really really don't. They can guide and teach.

SO MANY teachers, principles and even police manage to do this without being thugs. We should not defend the thugs, but rather point them to the successful best practices and teach them how to gain control without being a thug.

Interesting tactic. It would make you look a bit silly too though. Also I do not think these desks fit easily though the doorway, especially if there is resistance.

My goodness, well, yes, it is certainly better to look like a thug than to look silly. (not)

The risk of serious injury was a stupid risk that cop took. A fixed desk-chair like that being flipped over is just begging for a spine injury. He was a stupid fuck to be willing to risk that so that he didn't have to "look silly."

But you know what? Dragging the chair to the hallway wouldn't have even looked silly. It would have looked compassionate, caring. He would have made his _next_ encounter much easier by being that cop who cares about you instead of that cop who is a brainless brute.

This. If she had ended up with a hematoma from smacking her head on the ground this all could have ended up far, far worse. This is not the first child to say "no" and refuse to move in the history of forever. What would a wealthy boarding school have done I wonder?

 

[ZiprHead]

From a witness:

I hope that was an English class this kid was taking. He needs it.

 

[ronburgundy]

Hindsight is not required to understand that flipping a desk over with a student sitting in it is dangerous (and possibly lethal) - only basic common sense. It does not take an exceptional level of experience or intelligence or courage to see that there are a number of less violent solutions to this relatively minor situation.

Eyes and a rational mind are apparently required to avoid your false claim that the cop flipped the desk over, when the facts clearly show that he was picking her up and not the desk (he had one under her legs and one around her shoulders), and that her own efforts to physically resist and push herself backwards is what caused the desk to topple backward. So long as she physically resisted, any and all method of trying to remove her would likely result in a "violent" struggle, with her going to the ground and the desk falling over. Neither you nor anyone else has offered any remotely plausible approach that would have removed her from the class without force or likely "violence" similar to what occurred (which is not very much violence at all given to lack of any injuries).

IF you want to argue that the cops should never have been called and she should have been allowed to stay in class despite only putting her phone away after being ordered to leave, then at least that is not a completely invalid argument contradicted by fact. But that is the only option besides use of force that would pose a similar danger to what occurred. Claims that the desk with her in it could be peaceably slid out of the class or her phone peacefully taken are absurd.

 

[laughing dog]

Hindsight is not required to understand that flipping a desk over with a student sitting in it is dangerous (and possibly lethal) - only basic common sense. It does not take an exceptional level of experience or intelligence or courage to see that there are a number of less violent solutions to this relatively minor situation.

Eyes and a rational mind are apparently required to avoid your false claim that the cop flipped the desk over, when the facts clearly show that he was picking her up and not the desk (he had one under her legs and one around her shoulders), and that her own efforts to physically resist and push herself backwards is what caused the desk to topple backward.

Your entire response is predicated on your description. It is pretty clear he flipped the desk over. Now, I suppose one might wish to argue he may not have meant to do so, but I find that argument unconvincing and irrelevant. She was sitting in the desk and his actions caused the desk to flip over. Moreover, his actions after the disk flipped over are much more consistent with him deliberately flipping the desk over: he did not look or pause to see if she was alright, he simply grabbed her and dragged her and then forced her to put her arms behind her back. Succinctly put, goosestepping defense of police authority in this instance are unconvincing.

 

[Rhea]

What would a wealthy boarding school have done I wonder?

qft

 

[ksen]

Not only that but if you watch the second video the leg of the desk nearly smacks the kid one row back in the head.

 

[ronburgundy]

I saw a 4'8" 60 year old French teacher physically remove a 200 lb fatass 10th grader from my 8th grade French class. He was being disruptive. She said leave. He ignored her. She dragged him and his desk into the hall and locked him out of the room. She managed this without tipping him onto the floor. I'm pretty sure the school cop didn't need to go full combat mode to achieve the goal of forceful removal of a mouthy little girl from the room.

Yeah. My kid came home from school telling about his under 5 ft tall, under 100 lb teacher taking a knife off of a student who towered above her at a very lumpy 6 ft tall. Took him to the school office herself. The rest of the class did not leave their seats or the classroom but waited for her to return and finish the lesson. She was and remains one of my kids' and my favorite teachers, ever.

And if all the random factors critical to any such outcome had led to that kid getting accidentally stabbed with his knife, would the teacher be your hero or another make believe villain that should be arrested? That scenario had far more chance to end up much worse than this one did, yet your crown heroes and villains based upon how random luck happens to shape the particular outcome. Sounds a lot like religion.

 

[ksen]

Eyes and a rational mind are apparently required to avoid your false claim that the cop flipped the desk over, when the facts clearly show that he was picking her up and not the desk (he had one under her legs and one around her shoulders), and that her own efforts to physically resist and push herself backwards is what caused the desk to topple backward.

That's just, like, your interpretation man.

I saw a cop flipping the desk with the girl in it and the girl not resisting the cop but instead just trying not to go ass over tea kettle.

So long as she physically resisted, any and all method of trying to remove her would likely result in a "violent" struggle, with her going to the ground and the desk falling over. Neither you nor anyone else has offered any remotely plausible approach that would have removed her from the class without force or likely "violence" similar to what occurred (which is not very much violence at all given to lack of any injuries).

No, she wasn't resisting the cop. She was resisting gravity which anyone in that situation would be trying to do.

IF you want to argue that the cops should never have been called and she should have been allowed to stay in class despite only putting her phone away after being ordered to leave, then at least that is not a completely invalid argument contradicted by fact. But that is the only option besides use of force that would pose a similar danger to what occurred. Claims that the desk with her in it could be peaceably slid out of the class or her phone peacefully taken are absurd.

Sez you.

 

[scombrid]

http://www.wltx.com/videos/news/local/2015/10/27/instagram-video-of-spring-valley-incident/74689786/

I just watched this video in slow motion.

At 2 seconds his left arm is under the desk lifting it an flipping it backwards.

At 4 seconds he has her left leg behind the knee and her left arm in his right hand and he flings her all the way to the front of the room.

 

[Toni]

Her verbalizations have zero bearing on her actively resisting. She fought against the cops efforts to pick her up out of the desk. The desk went backward due to the force she exerted.

No, she remained passive and silent throughout the assault by the police officer.

Every single claim of what he could/should have done differently is pure speculation, the difference is that mine don't contradict physics and a reasoned analysis of the facts of the situation such as the fact that she did and would have physically resisted any effort to remove her or get her phone.

Your speculation included nothing resembling 'reasoned analysis of the facts.'

And how would you get the phone from her? By force would be the only way and like she did here, she would physically resist very easily resulting in injury, a broken finger, etc., and laughing dog would throw you in prison for assault, because by his standard cops should get the same punishment a non-cop would get for the same action.

Bottom line is that there were only 2 options, use of force that could result in injury or do nothing and allow her to continue to sit there on her phone. If the latter is chosen, then the cop should never have been called because forcing compliance is a definitional part of law enforcement.

Actually, I managed to raise several children to adulthood, all of whom grew to be much taller than I am before they finished elementary school. I often had to 'force' them to do things they did not want, including to put away things they wanted to keep in their hands.

Somehow, I managed to not assault them, not call for reinforcements (their father) or the police.

As have millions of other parents and competent teachers all over the world.

The girl had in fact, put her cell phone away when she was ordered out of the classroom.

All the more reason why proposed solutions of simply taking her phone away are invalid and would require force and violence. They would have had to hold her down and "assault" her by reaching into her pockets.

So she complied by putting away from her phone, but she still MUST be assaulted?

Where is your evidence that cell phones were not allowed in the classroom? The video recording of these events was taken by students in the classroom, using their cell phones.

She was still actively violating class policy by not leaving the classroom.

I believe most classrooms have a policy of students not leaving the classroom during class. She complied with the teacher's request, albeit not instantaneously. Having complied, it seems reasonable that she would believe that she did not need to leave but instead, should remain in class to obtain the education to which she was legally entitled, and depending on her age, the school was required by law to provide.

She had resisted putting it away when asked and only did so after being told to leave.

Yep. Teenagers.

At that point she should have been and was required to leave the class as instructed.

Why? She complied after being presented with the consequence of leaving the classroom. Clearly, she valued her education far more than the teacher or administrator valued providing an education.

Letting her remain because she finally put it away only after being told to leave would completely invalidate any policy about phones or any other disruption.

No. Quite the opposite. Punishing the student after the student complied removes any motivation for compliance from any student, ever. Why comply if you will be punished anyway?

It would mean, do whatever you want and disregard the teacher, so long as you stop after being ordered to leave.

It would mean: why bother doing what you are told? You will be assaulted anyway. May as well do whatever you want until you are beaten into submission because the authority figures in your school are so insecure that they cannot tolerate the slightest resistance and must respond with the greatest force available for any infraction whatsoever.

Also, the fact that she refused to put it away until ordered to leave means that if being made to leave was not actually enforced, it would have had no effect and she would have just took it out again. That isn't speculation, that is a rational analysis of human behavior based upon the facts and established theories of human behavior.

Yeah, it is absolutely speculation. Unsupported by anything other than your imagination.

I watched it, but unlike you I paid attention to the actual facts it shows regarding her clear physical resistance and that being the central cause of her toppling backward in her desk, and what this clearly implies about the falseness of all claims that she or her phone could have been removed without any force or chance of injury.
Nothing else regarding the other student's reactions or one getting arrested for merely objecting is relevant to what I said which speaks only to falseness of the many claims that force was unnecessary to remove her or her phone from the class.

No, I watched the video, actually multiple videos. Actually, before it being posted in this thread.

What you see as 'resistance' is merely your imagination running away with you.

 

[scombrid]

Eyes and a rational mind are apparently required to avoid your false claim that the cop flipped the desk over,

Rationalizing.

If the objective was physical removal then I do not see justification for the level of violence executed.

The level of violence is only "rational" if the objective were to rough her up to teach the brat a lesson because, as stated earlier in the thread by Derec, the girl got what was coming to her.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Let's be real.

The officer could have entered the room, pulled his weapon, pumped two rounds into that girl's chest, holstered his weapon and walked out of the room and there would STILL be people in these forums defending the officer.

 

[Mumbles]

Let's be real.

The officer could have entered the room, pulled his weapon, pumped two rounds into that girl's chest, holstered his weapon and walked out of the room and there would STILL be people in these forums defending the officer.

Yep.

I know what I would have said had I been another student, in that same classroom. "No way I'm going back to that school, mom." I also know my reaction as an adult seeing a cop beat up a teenage girl like that - and let's just say that it's not a good one.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Let's be real.

The officer could have entered the room, pulled his weapon, pumped two rounds into that girl's chest, holstered his weapon and walked out of the room and there would STILL be people in these forums defending the officer.

Well, she was holding a phone. If she had sharpended one edge of it into a shiv, she could have put it into the officer's throat. He can't take that chance.

 

[maxparrish]

If you believe that a lawful order by a teacher or police officer can and should be ignored...if you believe that back talk and pleading and negotiations with the student for ceasing their bad behavior is necessary in modern life...if you believe that the school rules are really just advisory and not to be taken seriously by students as the actual limit of acceptable behavior...then you are stunned that some folks don't agree and are agast that some folks mean it.

If she had that kind of parent, is it any wonder that this girl thought she'd get away with disruptions.

However, the police action was fully warranted. Granted, perhaps he should have tased or maced the delinquent - that way we wouldn't have heard the whining over the big, bad, policeman touching a protected minority female. She would have earned it.

 

[ksen]

0/10

 

[TSwizzle]

These things come about because teachers have effectively been neutered when it comes to disciplining kids in the class room. The yoof of today know their rights.

 

[Toni]

0/10

Style or reasoning?

- - - Updated - - -

If you believe that a lawful order by a teacher or police officer can and should be ignored...if you believe that back talk and pleading and negotiations with the student for ceasing their bad behavior is necessary in modern life...if you believe that the school rules are really just advisory and not to be taken seriously by students as the actual limit of acceptable behavior...then you are stunned that some folks don't agree and are agast that some folks mean it.

If she had that kind of parent, is it any wonder that this girl thought she'd get away with disruptions.

However, the police action was fully warranted. Granted, perhaps he should have tased or maced the delinquent - that way we wouldn't have heard the whining over the big, bad, policeman touching a protected minority female. She would have earned it.

Except the student complied and was not being disruptive.

Points to you for being the first person to bring race into the discussion, though.