(spoiler alert) ending of new AVENGERS spoils movie

[jab]

the protracted fake tragic ending setting up for a sequel ruined it for me.

 

[PyramidHead]

You know, I had a similar thought when I left the theater but I didn't think it ruined the sequel. More accurately, the background knowledge that there WILL be a sequel and these characters WILL have sequels of their own lessened the impact of the ending. It wasn't anything within the movie, but the fact that the studios have laid their cards on the table by revealing their entire release schedule into 2021. Imagine if there wasn't any confirmation of a next Spider-Man movie or even an Infinity War sequel. That ending would be the talk of the industry: a big Hollywood blockbuster superhero movie where the bad guy wins at the end? As it stands, everybody is kind of like let's talk about how all these dead characters are going to end up not really being dead. The possibility that they are actually wiped out is just completely off the table, so there are no real stakes involved. I still want to see what happens because I'm interested in how it plays out, and I like the characters.

What I do think is kind of ruined, though, is the sense of threat in any future Marvel movie with a smaller scope. It kept escalating and escalating with all the standalone films, until now all of reality is affected by the main villain, and now everybody please watch the next Spider-Man movie in which he fights... I dunno, Mysterio or some crook like that. Anything short of a cosmic godlike being is gonna seem like small potatoes now.

 

[James Brown]

What I do think is kind of ruined, though, is the sense of threat in any future Marvel movie with a smaller scope. It kept escalating and escalating with all the standalone films, until now all of reality is affected by the main villain, and now everybody please watch the next Spider-Man movie in which he fights... I dunno, Mysterio or some crook like that. Anything short of a cosmic godlike being is gonna seem like small potatoes now.

I'm not so sure. I enjoyed Ant-Man and Spider-Man: Homecoming, even though the scope of those movies' villains was nowhere near the villains in the first two Avengers movies.

Most of the MCU movies contain a villain that's a mirror opposite of the hero, so as long as the struggle is evenly-matched, any battle is a thrill to enjoy.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Here's the deal. The Super Hero movies always have the good guys win in the end. The outcome is always not in question. It is the howthat matters. Also, we still don't know who will survive the ending of this quasi two-part film. Finally, we didn't know how the film was going to end exactly.

I'd say leaving the theater was intense because the entire movie was intense. Studio Execs could have spaced this film into two parts, but didn't and gave us one of the densest movie plots ever. It was like riding a roller coaster for 2.5 hours. Yes, the ending was a little bit anti-climatic because of the known movie schedules, but they did give you hints in the film as well (two come immediately to mind).

The sequel is going to trash opening weekend numbers. I am also willing to bet no studio is going to even release anything around the second part. Theaters will have several screens dedicated that weekend to the film because everyone and their mother is going to want to see the resolution ASAP, both for curiosity and to save from spoilers.

 

[marc]

Here's the deal. The Super Hero movies always have the good guys win in the end. The outcome is always not in question. It is the howthat matters. Also, we still don't know who will survive the ending of this quasi two-part film. Finally, we didn't know how the film was going to end exactly.

That is kind of what I was thinking. The impact is lessened because we know at least most of the ones 'killed' will be back by the end of the next film? Get real. In movies today the good guys loosing in the end is almost unheard of, and killing off main characters is a very rare event outside of horror movies. Did anyone realistically think there was a chance the Nazis would kill Indiana Jones? Or the upcoming Han Solo film is going to suck because we know Han and Chewie will survive? (it might suck for other reasons, just not that one)

hmmnm.... isn't this kind of the opposite of the 'refrigerator trope'? Where some object to a character being killed off just to motivate a character, or show the stakes of what is happening. But now the complaint is that a character will not be killed off, so there are no real stakes.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

It does somewhat eliminate the idea that there are any stakes at all for anyone. It's a cool scene and it worked within the context of the movie, but it does make everything not matter. You know they're all coming back and nothing that happened in Infinity War will have any consequences. Black Panther and Spider-Man still have sequels coming out. Gamora will be in the next GotG movie and Loki will be in the next Thor one. Death just doesn't matter in the MCU.

 

[prideandfall]

It does somewhat eliminate the idea that there are any stakes at all for anyone. It's a cool scene and it worked within the context of the movie, but it does make everything not matter. You know they're all coming back and nothing that happened in Infinity War will have any consequences. Black Panther and Spider-Man still have sequels coming out. Gamora will be in the next GotG movie and Loki will be in the next Thor one. Death just doesn't matter in the MCU.

but here's a question: does that really matter in terms of a franchise?
if you want a food experience that is unique and will never be the same twice you go to a restaurant with a chef and a seasonal menu. if you want to know exactly what you're getting and exactly how it's going to taste every time, you go to chili's.

you knew for certain that walter white wasn't ever going to die in the middle of season 2 of breaking bad... did that mean breaking bad sucked? there were several times during the seasons it looked like he was going to get caught or killed, and yet he never did.
this is a franchise that is built on the shoulders of stars and this movie was a mid-season finale or maybe season finale cliffhanger.
yeah everything is going to get fixed and reverted back to the status quo by the next one, but that's kind of the point isn't it? develop characters you like who interact in ways you enjoy then have stuff happen to them for you to watch them react to things.

if as they say TV is becoming more like movies, then it's fair game movies become more like TV with an eye to long term serial longevity.
and besides, it's a disney movie... since when does anyone die in a disney movie unless it serves a specific narrative function of poignancy?
(well, die explicitly anyways - the xenocide worth of background deaths in most disney movies "don't count" apparently)

 

[jab]

It does somewhat eliminate the idea that there are any stakes at all for anyone. It's a cool scene and it worked within the context of the movie, but it does make everything not matter. You know they're all coming back and nothing that happened in Infinity War will have any consequences. Black Panther and Spider-Man still have sequels coming out. Gamora will be in the next GotG movie and Loki will be in the next Thor one. Death just doesn't matter in the MCU.

but here's a question: does that really matter in terms of a franchise?
if you want a food experience that is unique and will never be the same twice you go to a restaurant with a chef and a seasonal menu. if you want to know exactly what you're getting and exactly how it's going to taste every time, you go to chili's.

you knew for certain that walter white wasn't ever going to die in the middle of season 2 of breaking bad... did that mean breaking bad sucked? there were several times during the seasons it looked like he was going to get caught or killed, and yet he never did.
this is a franchise that is built on the shoulders of stars and this movie was a mid-season finale or maybe season finale cliffhanger.
yeah everything is going to get fixed and reverted back to the status quo by the next one, but that's kind of the point isn't it? develop characters you like who interact in ways you enjoy then have stuff happen to them for you to watch them react to things.

if as they say TV is becoming more like movies, then it's fair game movies become more like TV with an eye to long term serial longevity.
and besides, it's a disney movie... since when does anyone die in a disney movie unless it serves a specific narrative function of poignancy?
(well, die explicitly anyways - the xenocide worth of background deaths in most disney movies "don't count" apparently)

The movie sucked because it wants to be a tragedy but can't be, and because it's all just a big set up for the sequel, it's sound and fury signifying nothing, a truly empty experience whose only meaning is to get you to shell out more money later. . . . In the tv shows I watch, when important characters die, they tend to stay dead. I didn't watch Breaking Bad.

 

[prideandfall]

The movie sucked because it wants to be a tragedy but can't be, and because it's all just a big set up for the sequel, it's sound and fury signifying nothing, a truly empty experience whose only meaning is to get you to shell out more money later. . . . In the tv shows I watch, when important characters die, they tend to stay dead. I didn't watch Breaking Bad.

is it though?
and i mean this question genuinely: was the movie trying to be a tragedy and couldn't be, or were you expecting a tragedy and didn't get one?

it makes for an interesting philosophical question, insofar as you can get philosophical about the act of watching a movie... is the viewer's knowledge or assumption about how the story will eventually progress what makes that story a tragedy, or is how the story is presented what makes it a tragedy?
not that we really see much of the fallout from the snap within the film, but i don't recall any of the characters being indifferent to the deaths of their associates. the fact that i knew how avengers: infinity war was going to end at the post-credit scene in the first avengers movie (since i know the comics and knew where that was inevitably going) meant i viewed the whole thing as the story of antagonist that wins and then how the protagonists will eventually come back from it.

i mean, don't get me wrong i'm not discrediting your movie-going experience or trying to tell you that your feelings about the film are wrong, i fully acknowledge both your right to dislike the film and respect that you have the view that you do, i'm just asking the question rhetorically because the idea of viewing expectation and how it impacts the experience of the viewing is interesting to me.

 

[Underseer]

the protracted fake tragic ending setting up for a sequel ruined it for me.

Have you never read a comic book before?

In comic books as in soap operas, death is just a temporary inconvenience, even when bringing a character back cheapens a selfless sacrifice in a previous story.

 

[bilby]

the protracted fake tragic ending setting up for a sequel ruined it for me.

Have you never read a comic book before?

In comic books as in soap operas, death is just a temporary inconvenience, even when bringing a character back cheapens a selfless sacrifice in a previous story.

Death may be a mere inconvenience in soap operas, but nobody ever returns after moving to Queensland.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It does somewhat eliminate the idea that there are any stakes at all for anyone. It's a cool scene and it worked within the context of the movie, but it does make everything not matter. You know they're all coming back and nothing that happened in Infinity War will have any consequences. Black Panther and Spider-Man still have sequels coming out. Gamora will be in the next GotG movie and Loki will be in the next Thor one. Death just doesn't matter in the MCU.

but here's a question: does that really matter in terms of a franchise?
if you want a food experience that is unique and will never be the same twice you go to a restaurant with a chef and a seasonal menu. if you want to know exactly what you're getting and exactly how it's going to taste every time, you go to chili's.

you knew for certain that walter white wasn't ever going to die in the middle of season 2 of breaking bad... did that mean breaking bad sucked? there were several times during the seasons it looked like he was going to get caught or killed, and yet he never did.
this is a franchise that is built on the shoulders of stars and this movie was a mid-season finale or maybe season finale cliffhanger.
yeah everything is going to get fixed and reverted back to the status quo by the next one, but that's kind of the point isn't it? develop characters you like who interact in ways you enjoy then have stuff happen to them for you to watch them react to things.

if as they say TV is becoming more like movies, then it's fair game movies become more like TV with an eye to long term serial longevity.
and besides, it's a disney movie... since when does anyone die in a disney movie unless it serves a specific narrative function of poignancy?
(well, die explicitly anyways - the xenocide worth of background deaths in most disney movies "don't count" apparently)

The movie sucked because it wants to be a tragedy but can't be...

Last time I checked, the movie was 150 minutes long and the entire basis of the critique here is how the last minute or two was.

and because it's all just a big set up for the sequel, it's sound and fury signifying nothing, a truly empty experience whose only meaning is to get you to shell out more money later. . .

Do you think they were aiming for the Nobel Prize with this movie? This is what is called a "cliffhanger". When Commander Riker says "Fire!" at the end of the season in TNG, were people whining, "The Borg aren't going to win, Picard will be fine"? Most importantly, with contracts with Marvel Studios likely up for some actors, it is quite possible some of these characters will be dead in the end and you'll get your wish for dead (and remains dead) characters.

In the tv shows I watch, when important characters die, they tend to stay dead. I didn't watch Breaking Bad.

Were you pissed when Gandalf came back? Or at the end of Empire Strikes Back? Meh... this is just getting me to see another movie.

 

[Underseer]

Of course we know a lot of them are coming back. Maybe even all of them. We know this because several of them have already contracted to do more sequels (Spider-Man, Dr. Strange, Black Panther).

It's certainly possible that Marvel would change their mind and leave Dr. Strange dead, but many of the old guard have contracts that are up. If Disney doesn't want to pay a lot of money renewing those contracts (and they probably don't), then they're going to need to keep new characters like Dr. Strange around to carry the weight. So he is almost certainly coming back.

Spider-Man is critical to Disney's new relationship with Sony. I don't think they're going to want to mess that up, so we can be sure Spider-Man is coming back. Besides, Spider-Man is the most recognizable name in the MCU.

They certainly aren't going to leave T'Challa dead, not after all the money he made them. He's definitely coming back. Besides, until the FOX deal goes through, they can't put Shuri on the throne yet. Well, they can, but not in a way that does justice to the story we know from the comic books from her time on the throne. I can't imagine they would want to pass up that sequel. So T'Challa needs to come back quickly, then something will screw up his relationship with Nakia, he gets together with Ororo, then once Dr. Doom and Latveria are part of the MCU, something will happen to make T'Challa unavailable to sit on the throne.

 

[Goodchild]

Death just doesn't matter in the MCU.

Welcome to comic books

The "stakes" only ever matter for the current story, it's a given that almost nothing will ever permanently change in a negative way. About the only repercussion you can count on sticking in comics is that Uncle Ben is dead. Techincally, Gwen Stacy is also always dead but there's alternate universe versions of her now so ...

 

[Underseer]

Death just doesn't matter in the MCU.

Welcome to comic books

The "stakes" only ever matter for the current story, it's a given that almost nothing will ever permanently change in a negative way. About the only repercussion you can count on sticking in comics is that Uncle Ben is dead. Techincally, Gwen Stacy is also always dead but there's alternate universe versions of her now so ...

Sometimes characters really remain dead. Usually less important characters that I really like.

 

[jab]

the protracted fake tragic ending setting up for a sequel ruined it for me.

Have you never read a comic book before?

In comic books as in soap operas, death is just a temporary inconvenience, even when bringing a character back cheapens a selfless sacrifice in a previous story.

Yeah, that's why they're comic.

 

[Goodchild]

Death just doesn't matter in the MCU.

Welcome to comic books

The "stakes" only ever matter for the current story, it's a given that almost nothing will ever permanently change in a negative way. About the only repercussion you can count on sticking in comics is that Uncle Ben is dead. Techincally, Gwen Stacy is also always dead but there's alternate universe versions of her now so ...

Sometimes characters really remain dead. Usually less important characters that I really like.

True, but who would really care if Pieface died and stayed dead?