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Stalin's Purges

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BH

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I have a question for those more educated than I about Modern Russian History.

How many people that Stalin punished for supposed crimes probably did actually commit the supposed crime under the laws of the land during his time? I am not at this time trying to defend or argue against whether those punishments were fair or just in and of themselves.
 
I have a question for those more educated than I about Modern Russian History.

How many people that Stalin punished for supposed crimes probably did actually commit the supposed crime under the laws of the land during his time? I am not at this time trying to defend or argue against whether those punishments were fair or just in and of themselves.

Not many. It was just madness without any real attempt to distinguish between guilty and innocent.
 
I have a question for those more educated than I about Modern Russian History.

How many people that Stalin punished for supposed crimes probably did actually commit the supposed crime under the laws of the land during his time? I am not at this time trying to defend or argue against whether those punishments were fair or just in and of themselves.

Nobody knows for sure since the unofficial story only was in Stalin's head. But the crimes they admitted to in mock trials tended to be pretty extreme and not the kind of stuff that was reasonable or even likely. So my vote is that they all were innocent (of the crimes they were accused of).

I also should add that the early USSR was riddled with spies and counter revolutionaries funded by foreign imperialist powers. This was actually true and not just bullshit propaganda. It's just that those agents didn't make it into Stalin's inner circle. That crowd probably were 100% genuine communists dedicated to the core. Don't forget that most of them had spent a minimum of fifteen years as communist revolutionaries in times when that was dangerous. They were all tried and tested. Not very likely candidates to be bought by foreign powers.
 
People often forget that Stalin really was a communist. He really believed in all the shit he was spouting. Under Stalin the USSR elites really lived humble and unassuming lives. All enforced by Stalin. It wasn't until Breschnev the higher echelons started to live a life in luxury.

Stalin really was a communist. Also bat shit crazy. Those aren't contradictions
 
How many people that Stalin punished for supposed crimes probably did actually commit the supposed crime under the laws of the land during his time?
Stalin gave his subordinates quotas, specifying how many tens of thousands of people were to be repressed, detailing how many were to be "in the first category" (executed) and how many "in the second category" (gulag).
 
Stalin was paranoid, that much is clear. The question is what was he hoping to accomplish and who he thought his enemies were. I've read much speculation on the subject, and speculation it must remain, as he was not open about his reasons. Some people suspect that the purges he launched late in his life were directed against Lavrenty Beria, the head of the NKVD. They failed because Beria had too tight a control over the security apparatus. (Kruschev was wiser, when he needed to take down Beria, he enlisted the one organization powerful enough to do it, the Army. Kruschev had spent years cultivating friendships with the upper leaders of the Army, and many of these same leaders feared purging by Beria, so it was easy for him to arrange the coup). Many still speculate that Beria had Stalin poisoned, and then killed the doctors to cover his tracks. Of course, there is no evidence.

As far as actual crimes to be punished, I think it is safe to conclude the victims of the purges were no more guilty than average citizens arrested at random would have been. In 'the Gulag Archipellego," Solzenitzen describes the processes of the justice system during this time. Lack of evidence was no object. In one memorable example, at a trial, both the prosecutor and the defense attorney recommended the charges against the defendant be dismissed, but the judge went ahead and convicted him anyway. Ordinary citizens were not even allowed to read the laws of the country. There were laws in place to protect them, but most were unaware, and the authorities used this to their advantage.

However, Stalin had so many purges, there's no reason to think that they were all for the same purpose (except, in a broader sense, to eliminate rivals and so forth). By the time the great officer purge of 1940 came around, he had already eliminated all his significant political rivals. Possibly he feared that the upper leadership of the army was too aligned with their former commander, Trotsky, but there's no real evidence of that.

Unlike Mao and his Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution, which was really just a purge disguised as a cultural movement, there was no obvious target for Stalin's purges. (the targets for the Cultural Revolution were Liu Shaoshi and Lin Biao)
 
People often forget that Stalin really was a communist. He really believed in all the shit he was spouting. Under Stalin the USSR elites really lived humble and unassuming lives. All enforced by Stalin. It wasn't until Breschnev the higher echelons started to live a life in luxury.

Stalin really was a communist. Also bat shit crazy. Those aren't contradictions
More like redundant.
 
Stalin was paranoid, that much is clear. The question is what was he hoping to accomplish and who he thought his enemies were. I've read much speculation on the subject, and speculation it must remain, as he was not open about his reasons. Some people suspect that the purges he launched late in his life were directed against Lavrenty Beria, the head of the NKVD. They failed because Beria had too tight a control over the security apparatus. (Kruschev was wiser, when he needed to take down Beria, he enlisted the one organization powerful enough to do it, the Army. Kruschev had spent years cultivating friendships with the upper leaders of the Army, and many of these same leaders feared purging by Beria, so it was easy for him to arrange the coup). Many still speculate that Beria had Stalin poisoned, and then killed the doctors to cover his tracks. Of course, there is no evidence.

As far as actual crimes to be punished, I think it is safe to conclude the victims of the purges were no more guilty than average citizens arrested at random would have been. In 'the Gulag Archipellego," Solzenitzen describes the processes of the justice system during this time. Lack of evidence was no object. In one memorable example, at a trial, both the prosecutor and the defense attorney recommended the charges against the defendant be dismissed, but the judge went ahead and convicted him anyway. Ordinary citizens were not even allowed to read the laws of the country. There were laws in place to protect them, but most were unaware, and the authorities used this to their advantage.

However, Stalin had so many purges, there's no reason to think that they were all for the same purpose (except, in a broader sense, to eliminate rivals and so forth). By the time the great officer purge of 1940 came around, he had already eliminated all his significant political rivals. Possibly he feared that the upper leadership of the army was too aligned with their former commander, Trotsky, but there's no real evidence of that.

Unlike Mao and his Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution, which was really just a purge disguised as a cultural movement, there was no obvious target for Stalin's purges. (the targets for the Cultural Revolution were Liu Shaoshi and Lin Biao)

I suspect that the purge of 1940 was largely an attempt by Beria to strengthen the NKVD by removing those who wanted to strengthen the military; particularly the new-dangled airforce. Of course the outbreak of war, and the astonishing success of the German invaders led to a redoubling of efforts - after all, if Russia is great, and her leader is great, then only sabotage at the highest level can explain their failure.

The real failure was Stalin's, of course; it seems that the only person that the intensely paranoid Stalin ever really trusted was Adolf Hitler; Stalin really wanted the Molitov-Ribbentrop pact to hold, and even after the Germans struck deep into Russia, telling him that it had not (with the implication that Hitler had hoodwinked him) was a life threatening move for his top military commanders.

It was never a good plan to tell Stalin things he didn't want to hear; and their being true was often not a defence.

Acts of random and extreme violence and barbarity are a very effective way of consolidating one's grip on power; if everyone is crapping themselves that they might be next, you can be assured that nobody will risk crossing you. But this comes at the price of nobody daring to tell you things you need to know, but don't want to hear. And of course, you must be completely pitiless.

Stalin, Hitler, Mao and Pot were pitiless; they really did view the deaths of millions as a mere statistic.

Their successors foundered, because they were humane. Gorbachev refused to crush the Polish 'Solidarity' led uprising (both literally and figuratively) with Russian tanks; and so the whole thing unravelled. Truly merciless leaders can only reach the top by fighting their way there. Once the revolutionaries of the old guard were gone, their successors were never going to have the stomach for the level of madness needed to keep the lid on; particularly over the wider Warsaw Pact.

People, at every level, seem to have become far less inclined to use massive and indiscriminate violence over the last half-century or so. That makes full-on dictatorship much more difficult to sustain.

Not long ago, killing a million or two peasants was almost unremarkable. Today, you massacre a mere few dozen, and everyone loses their minds.

I blame the UN, TV, and the rise of rapid global mass media. People used to want the truth, but they couldn't handle the truth, so governments kindly kept the truth from them.

Now that the truth is out there, the people still can't handle it; so they act as a brake on the worst excesses.

That's probably a very good thing.
 
There's also the issue of whether you believe that Stalin was poisoned or he died a natural death by stroke.

If he was poisoned, it is quite probable that his paranoia was justified, and that his late purges had as their goal to eliminate whatever rival he had (probably Beria).

On the other hand, if you think he died of a stroke, it is quite likely that the fatal stroke may have been preceded by smaller strokes, as is common. For example, after Hitler invaded in 1941, Stalin was oddly absent for about a week. Much speculation has taken place about this absence, one of them being that the shock brought on a mini stroke. Even if that isn't true, it can be safely assumed that if his death was a natural one, for the reasons most commonly assumed, then his mental abilities would probably have deteriorated markedly before his death, perhaps leading him into unnecessary and pointless purges.
 
It has been decades since I read them, but the transcripts of the Moscow trials reveal a total lack of regard for evidence and reasoned argument, indicating that guilt played little role in verdicts.

As a young man of 18 I encountered a old Commie who also had really good weed. He would hook me and my friends up so long as we hung out with him and talked politics. We read Marx's manifesto and I was impressed by it, so I read some more, such as Das Capital which to this day is still among the more honest and psychologically and sociologically valid analyses of the pitfalls of Capitalism. Marx was more correct about the problem than about a viable solution.

But then, the old Commie gave me transcripts of Stalin's Moscow trials. I read it with dismay, thinking that the arguments and actions used to prosecute Stalin's real or imagined political enemies had no resemblance to the intellectual or the ethical principles that I saw evidence in Marx. Stalin showed a disdain for reasoned thought because it was an enemy to kind of totalitarian control he sought. Marx was a rationalist before and more importantly than he was a Communist, which he only supported because he thought it rationally defensible. I came to realize that the Communist revolution in general had no respect for the true intellectual principles underlying anything Marx said, and doubted that Marx's ideals could be implemented without corrupt authoritarianism in any society larger and more complex than a small pre-industrial tribe or Kibbutz. This old guy was rather close minded about the flaws of his ideology (he was a Communist of the sort Marx would despise), so we stopped hanging out and I lost my weed connection.
 
Let me play devil's advocate here and ya'll feel free to tear me up.

I have read a lot of you say that there was no real evidence, proof, ect offered at these trials. What if this was done, not so much because the people tried were actually innocent and Stalin was just being mean and wanting to get rid of threats to his own power, but perhaps they were guilty and the Communists putting them on trial did not want the evidence presented clearly because then those spies and sabatours still loose could get an idea how much the NKVD, police, ect knew about them and their possible connections and personel.

I am not saying this was the case, just food for thought. And food for thought can always be brain vomited back out. (P
 
Hundreds of thousands of spies?

How much would one spy be paid, and how much of the GDP of the west would have had to been spent to pay so many spies?
 
Hundreds of thousands of spies?

How much would one spy be paid, and how much of the GDP of the west would have had to been spent to pay so many spies?

You don't need to pay them. It's been estimated that a third of all Soviet citizens were KGB informers to some capacity. The size of the secret police in all East Bloc countries is just mind-boggling.
 
You misunderstand: If every person sent to the Gulag, or even a percentage of them, were western spies, as accused, then wouldn't the WEST have to pay them?
 
You misunderstand: If every person sent to the Gulag, or even a percentage of them, were western spies, as accused, then wouldn't the WEST have to pay them?

The same applies though. You're assuming that the main motivator for spying is money. I'd argue the main motivation was ideological.

The Soviet spies in the west were rarely paid. They were just straight up commies doing Stalin's evil work for free.

A lot of them were convicted of being counter revolutionaries. Nobody is a perfect worker for the cause. So everybody is guilty
 
You misunderstand: If every person sent to the Gulag, or even a percentage of them, were western spies, as accused, then wouldn't the WEST have to pay them?

The same applies though. You're assuming that the main motivator for spying is money. I'd argue the main motivation was ideological.

The Soviet spies in the west were rarely paid. They were just straight up commies doing Stalin's evil work for free.

A lot of them were convicted of being counter revolutionaries. Nobody is a perfect worker for the cause. So everybody is guilty
True. A lot of those executed by the Khmer Rough committed the crime of not having the right attitude while planting rice. In such totalitarian states not being zealous enough for the cause is considered a crime.
 
The same applies though. You're assuming that the main motivator for spying is money. I'd argue the main motivation was ideological.

The Soviet spies in the west were rarely paid. They were just straight up commies doing Stalin's evil work for free.

A lot of them were convicted of being counter revolutionaries. Nobody is a perfect worker for the cause. So everybody is guilty
True. A lot of those executed by the Khmer Rough committed the crime of not having the right attitude while planting rice. In such totalitarian states not being zealous enough for the cause is considered a crime.

Khmer Rouge, the craziest of all commie regimes. Pol Pot's theory was that ancient farming technology would be more efficient than modern farming technology. When crop yields were lower than what he'd predicted he started killing scapegoats. At no point did he stop to reassess his theory. Crazy crazy crazy.
 
True. A lot of those executed by the Khmer Rough committed the crime of not having the right attitude while planting rice. In such totalitarian states not being zealous enough for the cause is considered a crime.

Khmer Rouge, the craziest of all commie regimes. Pol Pot's theory was that ancient farming technology would be more efficient than modern farming technology. When crop yields were lower than what he'd predicted he started killing scapegoats. At no point did he stop to reassess his theory. Crazy crazy crazy.

Eat your paleo/neolithic diet and smile, you capitalistic running-dog??? Sounds like a slogan for untermensh :)

SMILE untermensh,;) you anarchistic running-dog, you. It's a joke.
 
If someone is ideologically committed to Capitalism, they need to be paid.
 
And not all people had to be paid to oppose Communism for other reasons. Some people opposed it because it was dominated mostly by atheist or agnostic leaning people. Some opposed the USSR out of nationalistic feeling. Some people just did not like the prices they were paid to produce or simply just did not like being told what to do You get a bunch of disaffected people, ten years of war or so with examples of one or two succesfull revolutions, and a few paid spies and agitators you can stir up a bunch of shit.
 
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