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Suicide machines?

lpetrich

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Does anyone wish to discuss the legitimacy and propriety of such machines?

 Jack Kevorkian
According to his lawyer Geoffrey Fieger, Kevorkian assisted in the deaths of 130 terminally ill people between 1990 and 1998. In each of these cases, the individuals themselves allegedly took the final action which resulted in their own deaths. Kevorkian allegedly assisted only by attaching the individual to a euthanasia device that he had devised and constructed. The individual then pushed a button which released the drugs or chemicals that would end his or her own life. Two deaths were assisted by means of a device which delivered the euthanizing drugs intravenously. Kevorkian called the device a "Thanatron" ("Death machine", from the Greek thanatos meaning "death").[18] Other people were assisted by a device which employed a gas mask fed by a canister of carbon monoxide, which Kevorkian called the "Mercitron" ("Mercy machine").
 Euthanasia device,  Suicide bag,  Suicide booth
A suicide bag, also known as an exit bag or hood,[1][2] is a euthanasia device consisting of a large plastic bag with a drawcord used to commit suicide through inert gas asphyxiation. It is usually used in conjunction with a flow of an inert gas like helium or nitrogen, which prevents the panic, sense of suffocation and struggling before unconsciousness, known as the hypercapnic alarm response [3]:45 caused by the presence of high carbon dioxide concentrations in the blood.[3] This method also makes the direct cause of death difficult to trace if the bag and gas canister are removed before the death is reported.[4][5][6]

A Doctor Built a Machine That Helps People Die - Tonic
Literal death machine offers a way to peacefully slip out of existence (The Next Web)

It's a sort of "death pod". One gets inside of it, and it then supplies nitrogen gas. It kills by suffocation, because it isn't oxygen. The pod has windows, so that its user can see outside of it. So one can die as one watches some outdoor scenery, like a sunset.

Other gases could work, especially noble gases. I know of someone who committed suicide by breathing helium. He researched various ways of dying and he decided that breathing helium was the most pleasant way to go.
 

J842P

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If you're an asshole who wants to leave a mess, you can always just use a revolver.
 

bilby

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Sounds good to me. If a person doesn't have the right to end their own life at the time of their choosing, what rights do they have?

If your life is not your own to do with as you will, what is?

How can a person be considered free, if they are compelled to continue to live regardless of their wishes?
 

bilby

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If you're an asshole who wants to leave a mess, you can always just use a revolver.

To the 95% of us who are not American, revolvers are hard to obtain.

They are also less likely to provide a painless death, unless the individual is both a keen student of human anatomy, and an excellent shot in a difficult situation.

A terminally ill person may well be incapable of lifting a revolver, much less aiming it correctly to ensure death (and it's even more difficult to ensure painless death).
 

J842P

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If you're an asshole who wants to leave a mess, you can always just use a revolver.

To the 95% of us who are not American, revolvers are hard to obtain.

They are also less likely to provide a painless death, unless the individual is both a keen student of human anatomy, and an excellent shot in a difficult situation.

A terminally ill person may well be incapable of lifting a revolver, much less aiming it correctly to ensure death (and it's even more difficult to ensure painless death).

It's a great way to leave a mess, though.
 

bilby

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If you're an asshole who wants to leave a mess, you can always just use a revolver.

To the 95% of us who are not American, revolvers are hard to obtain.

They are also less likely to provide a painless death, unless the individual is both a keen student of human anatomy, and an excellent shot in a difficult situation.

A terminally ill person may well be incapable of lifting a revolver, much less aiming it correctly to ensure death (and it's even more difficult to ensure painless death).

It's a great way to leave a mess, though.

Sure. But if a mess is the sole objective, you could just jump into a wood chipper.
 

lpetrich

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I've seen a weird proposed suicide machine: a roller coaster of death.
Projects - euthanasia-coaster - Julijonas Urbonas of Lithuania
▶ "Death by Rollercoaster" - The Euthanasia Coaster - YouTube -- JU describes it
▶ Euthanasia Roller Coaster DISTURBING REAL POV - YouTube
▶ Nolimits Coaster:EUTHANASIA COASTER - YouTube

He proposes euthanasia by roller coaster, so that one can end one's life in a very pleasant way. The first peak would be about 500 m / 1600 ft high, and one would go down from there into 6 loops. The purpose of the height and the loops would be to produce 10 g's of downward acceleration, and to produce 10 g's over about a minute. Downward acceleration pulls blood out of the brain, depriving one's brain of oxygen, and making one feel lightheaded and euphoric. At about 10 g's downward, one loses consciousness, and after about a minute, one dies. So one dies a very pleasant death.

This effect is called G-LOC, short for G-force induced Loss Of Consciousness. Some pilots of high-performance aircraft have died of that effect.

That's an interesting idea, but it seems impractical. it would be rather expensive, since a roller coaster that large would have a height comparable to the heights of the tallest buildings.


When I started thinking of alternatives, I first thought of a rocket sled. But 10 g's for 100 s will yield 10 km/s, reached after traveling 500 km, and that's a bit much for an Earthbound vehicle.

Then I considered a centrifuge. That's what's used to train pilots and astronauts to survive large accelerations. So that will work, and one need not worry about how long that one can continue its acceleration. Keep it spinning, and its centrifugal acceleration will continue.

So a Centrifuge of Death, anyone? I was reminded of the carousel scene in "Logan's Run". But instead of being centrifuged, the participants float upward and get blown up as they reach the ceiling.
 

bilby

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If you're an asshole who wants to leave a mess, you can always just use a revolver.
To the 95% of us who are not American, revolvers are hard to obtain.
Any short of short gun can substitute, like a semiautomatic pistol. That's the kind that stores its bullets in its handle.

All kinds of handguns are hard to obtain for civilians outside the USA.

And a 'semiautomatic' is any self-loading gun that requires a separate trigger pull for each shot (as opposed to an automatic, which continues to load and fire as long as the trigger is depressed). The location of the magazine is irrelevant - although the grip is usually the most obvious place for it in the case of semiautomatic pistols.

Any firearm with a barrel shorter than 24" is a prohibited weapon in the UK, other than for police, the military, or licenced firing ranges and firearms dealers (there are also exceptions for historic pistols if you are a museum or collector of such antiquities). Ordinary citizens can only obtain them illegally, and the police and courts are VERY harsh with regards to any illegal possession of such weapons.

Suicide with long arms is even more difficult than with a handgun. But as I said before, even a handgun is a poor choice for anyone who wants a painless death, unless they are both a good shot, and well versed in human anatomy. A surprising number of handgun suicide attempts fail - and non-fatal head injuries are painful.

(I used to work for a gunsmith in the UK, so I am quite familiar with firearms, and with the legal difficulties in obtaining them in places with sane regulations).
 

Keith&Co.

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All kinds of handguns are hard to obtain for civilians outside the USA.
That could be our next industry... Terminal Tourism.

Handgun and cremation facilities located at various scenic attractions. Blow your brains out while looking at the St. Louis Arch, a Saturn V Rocket, a space shuttle, the Grand Canyon...
Pre-address the package for your ashes, shipping price included in your termination fee.

An ad campaign, You Can't Come To America To Live, But Come Over To Die!
 

untermensche

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In the day we sweat it out on the streets of a runaway American dream
At night we ride through the mansions of glory in suicide machines

'Born to run'
 

Politesse

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Have some experience with forensics. Do not recommend handgun method. Ouch.

Hypoxia is a nice way to go. Maybe the best.
 

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I can see it now (in some cases) ... heir to very large fortune tried to plead with rich relative not to use machine, but rich relative insisted, by the only method to communicate , by blinking with his eyes.
 

Politesse

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It's a sort of "death pod". One gets inside of it, and it then supplies nitrogen gas. It kills by suffocation, because it isn't oxygen. The pod has windows, so that its user can see outside of it. So one can die as one watches some outdoor scenery, like a sunset.

Other gases could work, especially noble gases. I know of someone who committed suicide by breathing helium. He researched various ways of dying and he decided that breathing helium was the most pleasant way to go.

The air you're breathing is already mostly nitrogen; it won't kill you. What such a hood does is slowly change the proportion of nitrogen to oxygen in your breathing space, until there isn't enough oxygen present to maintain normal functions, especially those of your brain. Your brain absolutely relies on oxygen for most of its processes, since it is the catalyst for the creation of glucose, the chemical that supplies the rest of your brain with energy and therefore is necessary for any sort of neural activity. This is so critical that more than a fifth of your overall oxygen intake is devoted to keeping your brain running.

Brain damage runs ahead of perception, as always. Cell death begins almost immediately in an anoxic space, becoming irreversible after about a minute as neurons themselves stop functioning. Low-oxygen environments will take longer, but it is still a frighteningly swift process. Disablement is easier to accomplish than death, as you tend to instinctively panic and do things like (for instance) panic and get out of your death pod. Hence helium and xanax and etcetera to belay this response, though I would be surprised if either work 100% -- brains are both resilient and adaptive, and those panic feelings serve a purpose- your brain will produce them if it can, even if it has to jerry-rig the entire system to do it.

In any case, you might be able to save your life at thst point, but cell death is cell death. If you've lost a piece of your neural lattice, you've lost a part of your body function, and a change in something like your personality or ability to communicate is almost certain. Your brain, in crisis mode, tries to preserve core functions, but it does so at the cost of your prefrontal cortex where all of those nice fancy higher brain functions partially reside. So I suspect any attempt at suicide by these means will be successful if serious, at least in a sense. The body might survive, but "you" will not. The brain will have to rebuild itself, but it won't do it in the same shape.

Five minutes? You're probably dead, unless you're a seasoned deep seadiver or US Marine or something. Even the most fervent efforts of your brain to keep its basic processes going can't work if glucose production is hindered for long enough. Your brain enters a state akin to a seizure, an aimless electrical storm; your organs stop working, and one by one your various life functions cease. The process does not take long, and you almost certainly won't survive. CPR can restart a heart, but it cannot rebuild a fatally compromised neural network.
 

lpetrich

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The air you're breathing is already mostly nitrogen; it won't kill you. What such a hood does is slowly change the proportion of nitrogen to oxygen in your breathing space, until there isn't enough oxygen present to maintain normal functions, especially those of your brain. Your brain absolutely relies on oxygen for most of its processes, since it is the catalyst for the creation of glucose, the chemical that supplies the rest of your brain with energy and therefore is necessary for any sort of neural activity. This is so critical that more than a fifth of your overall oxygen intake is devoted to keeping your brain running.
Oxygen is not used to make glucose. Instead, oxygen is *combined* with glucose and other small food molecules -- sugars, fatty acids, and amino acids (protein building blocks). These molecules are elaborately disassembled, and the hydrogen in them combined with oxygen to make water. Like this possible example, not necessarily a real one:

Methane
CH4 + H2O -> CH3OH + 2H
Methanol
CH3OH + H2O -> CH2O + 2H
Formaldehyde
CH2O + H2O -> HCOOH + 2H
Formic Acid (Formate)
HCOOH -> CO2 + 2H

The 2H's are combined with other molecules, and they are transferred to oxygen in the respiratory chain, as it's called. This transfer extracts energy from them, energy that is used to power the cell.

For some reason, nerve cells only like to use glucose as a foodstuff, unlike other kinds of cells, which can also use the others.
 

lpetrich

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Each Organ Has a Unique Metabolic Profile - Biochemistry - NCBI Bookshelf
1. Brain. Glucose is virtually the sole fuel for the human brain, except during prolonged starvation. The brain lacks fuel stores and hence requires a continuous supply of glucose. It consumes about 120 g daily, which corresponds to an energy input of about 420 kcal (1760 kJ), accounting for some 60% of the utilization of glucose by the whole body in the resting state. Much of the energy, estimates suggest from 60% to 70%, is used to power transport mechanisms that maintain the Na+-K+ membrane potential required for the transmission of the nerve impulses. The brain must also synthesize neurotransmitters and their receptors to propagate nerve impulses. Overall, glucose metabolism remains unchanged during mental activity, although local increases are detected when a subject performs certain tasks.

...
Fatty acids do not serve as fuel for the brain, because they are bound to albumin in plasma and so do not traverse the blood-brain barrier. In starvation, ketone bodies generated by the liver partly replace glucose as fuel for the brain.

2. Muscle. The major fuels for muscle are glucose, fatty acids, and ketone bodies.
Ketone bodies are related to fatty-acid metabolism. A fatty acid gets shrunk as its energy is extracted from it, with ketone bodies being as far as this shrinking can go.
 

Loren Pechtel

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If you're an asshole who wants to leave a mess, you can always just use a revolver.

To the 95% of us who are not American, revolvers are hard to obtain.

They are also less likely to provide a painless death, unless the individual is both a keen student of human anatomy, and an excellent shot in a difficult situation.

A terminally ill person may well be incapable of lifting a revolver, much less aiming it correctly to ensure death (and it's even more difficult to ensure painless death).

If you're able-bodied a shot through the mouth is pretty reliable--a shotgun would be better. The people who commit suicide for medical reasons are likely not able to handle it well enough to aim properly.

I do think a nitrogen pod system would be a good idea. What we have seen from places where euthanasia is legal is that a lot of people don't choose to fight the slow things to the end.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Brain damage runs ahead of perception, as always. Cell death begins almost immediately in an anoxic space, becoming irreversible after about a minute as neurons themselves stop functioning. Low-oxygen environments will take longer, but it is still a frighteningly swift process. Disablement is easier to accomplish than death, as you tend to instinctively panic and do things like (for instance) panic and get out of your death pod. Hence helium and xanax and etcetera to belay this response, though I would be surprised if either work 100% -- brains are both resilient and adaptive, and those panic feelings serve a purpose- your brain will produce them if it can, even if it has to jerry-rig the entire system to do it.

Disagree--people in anoxic but not otherwise hostile atmospheres don't notice anything wrong. Hypoxia training involves a normal atmosphere at low pressure, it's stopped before reaching the point of damage but again, the people undergoing it don't have any panic reaction. The purpose is to help them recognize that they're suffering from a lack of oxygen, hopefully buying them a few more seconds to act if it ever happens for real. (It's for those who will be operating flying craft at altitudes where oxygen is necessary. If a plane loses all pressure at jetliner altitudes the pilots have only seconds to don their masks.)

In any case, you might be able to save your life at thst point, but cell death is cell death. If you've lost a piece of your neural lattice, you've lost a part of your body function, and a change in something like your personality or ability to communicate is almost certain.

You pass out well before the point of permanent damage.
 

barbos

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Lack of oxygen does not cause immediate cellular death. Certainly not in organs other than brain.
Cellular death happens when oxygen supply is restored. Brain is of course is more complicated but even there there are cases of people being revived after being drowned (in cold water) for 20 minutes without brain damage.
 

Koyaanisqatsi

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I've heard that the "best" (or one of the best anyway) ways to go is to dissolve about 60 to 90 seconals in gatorade and drink it down. Of course, getting one's hand on that many secs may be a problem. Someone told me this was a preferred method among Oregonians (right-to-die state).

Personally, I'd like to do something along those lines washing it down with some fine whiskey as I lay on an ice floe (which may be an ice cube by the time I'm ready) watching the Aurora Borealis. Euphoria from the freeze; guaranteed death from the toxins; amazing light show. Exeunt.
 

lpetrich

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 High-G training -- existing human centrifuges are located in military bases and space research labs, and they are for training military pilots and astronauts. They can make enough acceleration to induce "g-loc", gravity loss of consciousness.

Watching Jet Pilots Train To Withstand G-Forces Is Just Too Intense
Learning Launchers: A Spin on Things -- Centrifuge | NASA
The G Machine | History | Air & Space Magazine
Centrifuge training | Vegitel -- a Russian one
How about a ride in the world’s biggest centrifuge? | Astronaut Class of 2009
NASA astronauts to under centrifuge training at Ohio base
Buy NASA's Human Training Centrifuge And Pretend You're An Astronaut


But I doubt that any of their operators would want to be associated with euthanasia by centrifuge.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Lack of oxygen does not cause immediate cellular death. Certainly not in organs other than brain.
Cellular death happens when oxygen supply is restored. Brain is of course is more complicated but even there there are cases of people being revived after being drowned (in cold water) for 20 minutes without brain damage.

Yes, the real damage is done on the restoration of oxygen. It doesn't really matter, though, once you're unconscious it doesn't matter the exact process.

Note that the cold water (and, very occasionally, cold air) cases are a special situation, the oxygen demand is way down also. I've heard of surgeons deliberately stopping all blood flow for an hour and the patient made a full recovery. They were chilled way down for this. (This was a brain operation, they had no other option. Very high risk but not operating meant she wasn't going to be around for long.)
 

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If you have the so-called 'right' to end your own life then you must also have the equivalent right to sell your own body parts to the highest bidder. Folks who make snuff films might be interested.

Can you believe there's an audience for that stuff?

Many jurisdictions say you only have the 'right' to die if you are sick.
Hmmm. Expensive sick people being granted the 'right' to stop being a burden to society.
Colour me cynical.
 

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I cannot imagine any ideology other than an indefensibly fascistic and authoritarian one, where it would be either illegal or immoral to end one's life. And if it is not, then helping a person to do so would not in general be either, and in fact could often be a highly moral and selfless act. OTOH, there are situations where suicide is an irrational, self-destructive, irreversible choice people make in temporary moments of distress. These might even comprise a majority of suicides, and probably of suicide "attempts".
In these situations, it would be immoral to assist the person to execute such a decision. Whether it should be illegal is another more complicated matter. So, I think those who give such assistance have at least a moral obligation to ensure that the person they are assisting is not making a rash decision in response to some temporary event and has been given all other possible assistance to try and remedy the suffering that is prompting their suicidal desire.

In this light, I am uneasy about something like a rollercoaster of death that would make the process seem not merely without suffering but actually fun, and thus might lower the threshold for such a decision, possibly with some thrill seeking fools riding it with the delusion that they will survive it.
 

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If you have the so-called 'right' to end your own life then you must also have the equivalent right to sell your own body parts to the highest bidder.
Show your work.

I have the right to give people legal advice. Goes with the whole First Amendment thingy. That doesn't mean I must also have the equivalent right to sell people legal advice. Goes with the whole "I don't believe that man's ever been to law school" thingy.

Many jurisdictions say you only have the 'right' to die if you are sick.
Hmmm. Expensive sick people being granted the 'right' to stop being a burden to society.
Colour me cynical.
Many religions think up spurious post hoc pseudo-secular "justifications" for maintaining their arbitrary religious prohibitions after "God said it; I believe it; if you dispute the point we'll execute you for blasphemy." runs out of persuasiveness. Color me cynical.
 

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Why would philosophical bodily autonomy arguments apply to suicide euthanasia but not selling (or renting) your body parts? Why would I have the right to die (sooner) if I'm terminally ill but not have the right to do so when I'm healthy and free from the stress and guilt of being a financial burden to all those social justice warriors pleading for my right to "die with dignity".
 

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assisted_suicide

Here in Wa state there is assisted suicide damping on what you are afflicted with.

A few years back when I was in ICU with severe heart failure the cardiologists explained my condition, told me survival even with treatment was not certain, and if I wanted they would withhold treatment.

I believe suicide is a right. There is a point beyond which quality of life over rides living. I an DNR and DNI. Do not resuscitate, do not intubate, and no heroic lifesaving measures. I will be getting a bracket that says DNI DNR. If my heart stops I am done. I have seen what the result's of strokes and heart attacks can be. If I ended up like that would use assisted suicide.

A handgun is a machine, as is a noose. Whether you randomize when the machine functions or not is irrelevant.

We execute people when we deem it is right, we kill in war because we deem it right. Suicide to me is no different. With all the killing that goes on in war that we glorify, it is hypocritical to say ending one's own life is immoral.

Recent statistics around 20,000 people in USA suicide by gun every year.
 

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Why would philosophical bodily autonomy arguments apply to suicide euthanasia but not selling (or renting) your body parts?
Because receiving money isn't an issue of bodily autonomy. (Typically. Of course there have been real-life situations where people were banned from receiving money as a method of controlling what they do with their bodies, e.g. Soviet-era "refuseniks". But "People can't buy your kidney." isn't in that category.)

Why would I have the right to die (sooner) if I'm terminally ill but not have the right to do so when I'm healthy and free from the stress and guilt of being a financial burden to all those social justice warriors
Well, strictly, you'd have to ask somebody who's in favor of the "only if you are sick" rule. IMHO, philosophical bodily autonomy arguments apply to healthy people too.

But if you want me to try to lay out other people's reasons for that position, I'll give it a go. To take it from their perspective, they're paternalistically deciding they know what's best for others and have the right to impose their will on another adult for his own good, i.e., they think a healthy person wanting to die is proof that he's mentally ill, incompetent to choose his own fate, and in need of intervention by kindly and wise strangers acting in loco parentis.

To take it from my third-party perspective, they're still half in the grip of three thousand years of Judeo-Christian religious propaganda that left an indelible mark on our culture even after we collectively rejected the "morality-equals-God's-will" premise underlying that propaganda. In a word, they've been trained since childhood to be squicked by suicide. The suffering of a guy with cancer is emotionally powerful enough to overcome that squick; the suffering of a depressed person isn't.

pleading for my right to "die with dignity".
In the words of Dr. House, there's no such thing as dying with dignity.
 

Koyaanisqatsi

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Why would philosophical bodily autonomy arguments apply to suicide euthanasia but not selling (or renting) your body parts? Why would I have the right to die (sooner) if I'm terminally ill but not have the right to do so when I'm healthy and free from the stress and guilt of being a financial burden to all those social justice warriors pleading for my right to "die with dignity".

Thank you for once again perfectly demonstrating why cults are so insidious and detrimental to humanity. I sincerely hope your death takes several years in a forgotten and run-down "home" and you experience nothing but agonizing pain that becomes a severe and devastating emotional and financial burden on your loved ones who will be forced to watch you deteriorate year after year after year into abuse-laden dementia until your brain is finally gone and you are reduced to little more than a machine-driven pulsating meat sack of pain and suffering. And then five years later you finally die. Praise the Lord! Amen!
 

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Why would philosophical bodily autonomy arguments apply to suicide euthanasia but not selling (or renting) your body parts? Why would I have the right to die (sooner) if I'm terminally ill but not have the right to do so when I'm healthy and free from the stress and guilt of being a financial burden to all those social justice warriors pleading for my right to "die with dignity".

My body parts are worth more than money, especially when it comes to such things as masturbation.
 

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One does not need fancy suicide machines. An overdose of sedatives will do, painless and not messy for somebody else to deal with.
 

steve_bank

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I was on morphine for a while. Probably not a bad way to go.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia

Euthanasia is a loaded word with different contexts. Say euthanasia and images of Nazis eliminated those deemed weak comes to mind. Suicide is a choice.

Euthanasia may be applied to an abortion based on severe problems with a fetus that are not correctable or treatable after birth.

Eutrhanasia would be another thread.

The Jesus character essentially committed suicide. He chose a path certain to lead to execution. Christians insist today on proselytizing in areas hostile to Christians with high risk of death. They become elevated martyrs in Christianity. To me it is suicidal, a whish to die in the service of a god.

I have come to see alcohol;, drugs, and tobacco as a form of willful self destruction, a form of suicide.
 

bilby

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One does not need fancy suicide machines. An overdose of sedatives will do, painless and not messy for somebody else to deal with.

Sure - if you can get them.

A lot of effort goes into making them very hard to get, particularly in sufficient quantity to assure death.

A large overdose of an opiate is also a good way to go; But again, is very hard to obtain (unless you have criminal connections).

And of course, both are potentially difficult for an infirm person to administer. Once you are in constant pain, such that you decide death is your best option, it's a bit late to go seeking out a heroin dealer, and quite likey you may not even be able to administer the drugs, even if you have them, without assistance.

The point of the suicide machine is to allow someone else to assist (by setting up the machine), while leaving the patient with the ultimate decision and action - which is a nice easy button press that even a severely ill person is able to do. It's a way to try to get around laws against homicide.

It's ridiculous that a veterinarian can be arrested and charged with cruelty for failing to end the life of a suffering animal; While a doctor can be arrested and charged with murder for ending the life of a suffering human. But such is the legacy of centuries of belief that a person's life belongs not to the individual, but to the church (as proxies for a God none of them can demonstrate to even exist).
 

Rhea

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But such is the legacy of centuries of belief that a person's life belongs not to the individual, but to the church (as proxies for a God none of them can demonstrate to even exist).
Yes. For when we can institute procedures to eliminate abuse, they still oppose it.


We treat our pets with more dignity and humanity than our own loved ones.

Perhaps because of the above?
 

Koyaanisqatsi

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But such is the legacy of centuries of belief that a person's life belongs not to the individual, but to the church (as proxies for a God none of them can demonstrate to even exist).
Yes. For when we can institute procedures to eliminate abuse, they still oppose it.


We treat our pets with more dignity and humanity than our own loved ones.

Perhaps because of the above?

No doubt.
 

Loren Pechtel

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One does not need fancy suicide machines. An overdose of sedatives will do, painless and not messy for somebody else to deal with.

Actually, most sedatives in use these days won't kill you, at least by themselves. (Combined with alcohol is another matter, though.) The medical community tries to avoid stuff where the therapeutic dose is at all close to the lethal dose. (Acetaminophen would never make it through modern drug testing standards because the ratio is only 10:1.)
 

ronburgundy

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I have come to see alcohol;, drugs, and tobacco as a form of willful self destruction, a form of suicide.

That's silly. That would make every pleasurable act that carries health risk a form of suicide, including skiing, eating red meat, even staying single or getting divorced (married men live longer).
Drugs can be used to self destruct, but most of the time they are used for pleasure, with the user enjoying the experience of being alive while doing it and not interest not being alive. IOW, virtually the opposite psychology of suicide. How one prioritizes longevity versus immediate pleasurable experiences has nothing to due with how one values being alive.


Euthanasia would be another thread.

Agreed, b/c when I hear "euthanasia", I think of this:

[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8iQN3-t0tbA

[/URL]
 

steve_bank

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Self destruction feels good for a while. That is the problem.

Went through drugs in the 70s, drank som,etimes a binge drinker, never used tobacco. My own experience plus what I see of many of the people I currently live with.

Off topic, I believe now when you are truly healthy and feel good alcohols and drugs eat away at it. We are free to choose our own poison and our own road to hell so to speak..

Right now if I drink I will not feel as good as I do now. Went through repeated cycles.

Tobacco and alcohol kill, not as fast as opioids.



From a spiritual perspective acrossm many traditions there is a feel good state that trumps all others.
 

ronburgundy

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Self destruction feels good for a while. That is the problem.

Leaving your house to enjoy anything is also something that feels good but increases your odds of harm to your person.
By your broad use of the concept, doing anything for joy that comes with some risk (aka, living) is self destruction.
Is driving to your friends house (risking and accident), and having a burger at his BBQ (risking heart disease) to enjoy his company and be there to celebrate his engagement and act of "suicidal self-destruction"? IF not, then it's invalid to claim drinking is outside a person with an uncontrollable addictive compulsion.


Right now if I drink I will not feel as good as I do now.

Great, but that is not true for many drinkers. "Feeling good" is inherently variable over time. If I drink, I usually experience an increase in pleasure, only sometimes followed by a increase in unpleasantness, but at end of that cycle I am happier I did it than if I had not and just maintained the same level of pleasure over that period. And even later, I have the added pleasure of memories of various experiences that alcohol was a causal factor in. The long term impacts on my health are part of a tomorrow that may never come and even if it does is likely to be more impacted by other factors than drinking or anything I can control from my genes, to infinite random events. It's a matter of where you want to place your bets, on healthier later years that may not come anyway or pleasure today that you can increase with risky actions, but in the end everyone loses.


Tobacco and alcohol kill, not as fast as opioids.
An infinite number of things kill and most of them you have no control over, and those are the ones most likely to do you in.

Living to optimize your health in some largely uncertain future is your choice, but others live for the now, which is certainly no less (and arguably more) an act of embracing one's life than your approach, and not an act of suicide or self destruction, any more than it is to drive to the beach to enjoy a sunset and increase your risk of getting in an accident.
 

steve_bank

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Whatever floats yoou boat, the beauty of our liberal democracy. We are entirely free to live as we choose, even if it o
is self destructive to up to the point of immediate harm.

Oxy has become a crisis because it brings death and deterioration quickly. Same with heroin and coke. Deemed too self destructive home illegal.

Alcohol and tobacco and bad diet takes decades to manifest. Hence they are legal.
 

Koyaanisqatsi

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Why would philosophical bodily autonomy arguments apply to suicide euthanasia but not selling (or renting) your body parts? Why would I have the right to die (sooner) if I'm terminally ill but not have the right to do so when I'm healthy and free from the stress and guilt of being a financial burden to all those social justice warriors pleading for my right to "die with dignity".

Thank you for once again perfectly demonstrating why cults are so insidious and detrimental to humanity. I sincerely hope your death takes several years in a forgotten and run-down "home" and you experience nothing but agonizing pain that becomes a severe and devastating emotional and financial burden on your loved ones who will be forced to watch you deteriorate year after year after year into abuse-laden dementia until your brain is finally gone and you are reduced to little more than a machine-driven pulsating meat sack of pain and suffering. And then five years later you finally die. Praise the Lord! Amen!

Someone (who shall remain nameless) gave me neg rep for this post—saying I was “better than that”—which is interesting, because I am literally right now sitting in a hospice room with my dying mother-in-law in West Virginia and have had to deal with all manner of bible thumpers insisting—to her daughters—that they have “given up on her and Jesus” because they told the nurses what her wishes were (no forced measures). In HOSPICE. So my wife and her sister—who of course won’t leave their already brain-dead mother’s side (she has been breathing only once a minute for two fucking days now) are being further tortured by asshole cult members who say idiotic things like, “She still has some things to do and just isn’t ready to go yet, but she can hear you.”

So for the past five days—24 hours a day (with maybe, maybe two or three hours a night in shifts) my wife and her sister have literally been holding their dead mother’s hand staring at every breath praying it’s her last and telling their brain dead mother to “move on, it’s ok, just move on, why won’t you move on” etc.

One nurse actually said, “Her spirit won’t move on until she breathes her last breath.” It took ALL of my remaining energy—after having stayed up for 72 hours with my wife and her sister—from killing that bitch where she stood.

It’s been a non-stop living torture for them to be under this much stress convinced that their mother is “still there” clinging to life fearing that she’s worrying about them and won’t let them go and what issues she hasn’t resolved yet (they each think it’s with them, of course) and the like and ALL because of some fucktard bible thumper cult members and their assinine beliefs.
 
Last edited:

poster

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Why would philosophical bodily autonomy arguments apply to suicide euthanasia but not selling (or renting) your body parts? Why would I have the right to die (sooner) if I'm terminally ill but not have the right to do so when I'm healthy and free from the stress and guilt of being a financial burden to all those social justice warriors pleading for my right to "die with dignity".

Thank you for once again perfectly demonstrating why cults are so insidious and detrimental to humanity. I sincerely hope your death takes several years in a forgotten and run-down "home" and you experience nothing but agonizing pain that becomes a severe and devastating emotional and financial burden on your loved ones who will be forced to watch you deteriorate year after year after year into abuse-laden dementia until your brain is finally gone and you are reduced to little more than a machine-driven pulsating meat sack of pain and suffering. And then five years later you finally die. Praise the Lord! Amen!

Someone (who shall remain nameless) gave me neg rep for this post—saying I was “better than that”—which is interesting, because I am literally right now sitting in a hospice room with my dying mother-in-law in West Virginia and have had to deal with all manner of bible thumpers insisting—to her daughters—that they have “given up on her and Jesus” because they told the nurses what her wishes were (no forced measures). In HOSPICE. So my wife and her sister—who of course won’t leave their already brain-dead mother’s side for the past five days now (she breathes once a minute for two fucking days now—are being further tortured by asshole cult members who say idiotic things like, “She still has some things to do and just isn’t ready to go yet.”

So for the past five days—24 hours a day (with maybe, maybe two or three hours a night in shifts) my wife and her sister have literally been holding their dead mother’s hand staring at every breath praying it’s her last and telling their brain dead mother to “move on, it’s ok, just move on, why won’t you move on” etc.

One nurse actually said, “Her spirit won’t move on until she breathes her last breath.” It took ALL of my remaining energy—after having stayed up for 72 hours with my wife and her sister—from killing that bitch where she stood.

It’s been a non-stop living torture for them to be under this much stress convinced that their mother is “still there” clinging to life fearing that she’s worrying about them and won’t let them go and the like and ALL because of some fucktard bible thumper cult members and their assinine beliefs.

I'm sorry you all have to go through that. I hope it ends soon for you.

The rep piont system is silly. Do they actually mean something? Mine were going up and down daily for a while. I just give them back as I receive them. Childish.
 

Lion IRC

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I have never given a negative rep point to anyone at TFF
Not even for something as disgraceful as this;

"...I sincerely hope your death takes several years in a forgotten and run-down "home" and you experience nothing but agonizing pain that becomes a severe and devastating emotional and financial burden on your loved ones who will be forced to watch"
 

GenesisNemesis

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I have never given a negative rep point to anyone at TFF
Not even for something as disgraceful as this;

"...I sincerely hope your death takes several years in a forgotten and run-down "home" and you experience nothing but agonizing pain that becomes a severe and devastating emotional and financial burden on your loved ones who will be forced to watch"

Yeah, that was too far. Oh wait, you're now going to ask me "why do you care, atheist?"and act like I'm not human.
 

GenesisNemesis

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Oh and you're also going to say I deserve to burn in Hell for eternity for being an atheist. Or that I deserve whatever punishment God decides because I'm an atheist. And also you're going to pretend you've never treated atheists like shit in 3... 2... 1...
 

Lion IRC

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God doesn't want atheists to burn in hell. See 2 Peter 3:9
As I said to one atheist here at TFF

Hey there,
I've known you on the atheosphere since...for ages.
And I know the blurred line between attacking the idea (atheism) and attacking the person (atheist) is sometimes so virtually invisible that atheists might reasonably think I don't care about the difference. But I do.
So I want to reach out to you one-on-one and implore you not to become so defensive of atheism - whatever that word means to you - that you let my anti-atheism become a source of personal bitterness and a fixation.
I'm not saying it is, and I really hope that it's not how you feel.
But I meant what I said about avoiding AvT discussions in places like this if attacks on atheism make you feel such intense negative emotions.
If your jibes are just casual venting of the spleen, or... in vino veritas like much of the smack talk around here, that's fine.
But every human being is of equal value and my view of atheists is informed by the Gospel of Luke 15:7
I hope you have and/or find peace in your life. And I hope you can embrace the same mindset as me - that no one can make you feel inferior without your consent. (See Eleanor Roosevelt.)
Best regards - Lion IRC
 

Jimmy Higgins

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If you have the so-called 'right' to end your own life then you must also have the equivalent right to sell your own body parts to the highest bidder. Folks who make snuff films might be interested.
So this is the people will marry toasters argument against gay marriage equivalent to allowing to people to end their own lives peacefully.

"Well, if ya allow people who are suffering greatly to end their pain... then you are just going to have to let people be able to sell their organs on eBay! Those people who married toasters will love to be able to get their beloved toasters some internal organs!"
 
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