System D - $10 Trillion Shadow Economy

[Bronzeage]

Imitation is the sinceriest form of flattery... I wonder how many "counterfeit" drugs are chemically the same, like generics sold before patent expiration, vs. sugar pills or worse something harmful. Same with electronics, how much is a just a manager running the line a little longer at Foxconn and selling the extra on Alibala?

Counterfeit drugs are usually not up to the standards of the real thing.

That would be "by definition." The best which for which we could hope would be generic drugs in counterfeit packaging.

This points to one of the inherent inefficiencies of the BME. Government imposed standards and regulations allow people to trust the name on the package. When that is gone, one has to trust the person holding the package. This greatly reduces the potential market for any product.

 

[fromderinside]

This points to one of the inherent inefficiencies of the BME. Government imposed standards and regulations allow people to trust the name on the package. When that is gone, one has to trust the person holding the package. This greatly reduces the potential market for any product.

Not true, rather it points to one of the inefficiencies of human nature, it points to the tendency of people to treat every product as if were as safe as that which is a normal regulated product.

 

[NobleSavage]

Let me derail my own thread: Anyone familiar with the other Systemd controversy?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Counterfeit drugs are usually not up to the standards of the real thing.

That would be "by definition." The best which for which we could hope would be generic drugs in counterfeit packaging.

This points to one of the inherent inefficiencies of the BME. Government imposed standards and regulations allow people to trust the name on the package. When that is gone, one has to trust the person holding the package. This greatly reduces the potential market for any product.

Not by definition. It would be possible for a counterfeit to be just as good, just the company not paying the licensing fees (if it even can be licensed.) However, the reality is that if they're going to cheat like that they're very likely to be doing other unsavory things--at best it's just poor quality control, at worst it's diluted anti-infection agents that not only don't cure but they breed resistance and move the real drug one step closer to ineffective.

 

[Bronzeage]

This points to one of the inherent inefficiencies of the BME. Government imposed standards and regulations allow people to trust the name on the package. When that is gone, one has to trust the person holding the package. This greatly reduces the potential market for any product.

Not true, rather it points to one of the inefficiencies of human nature, it points to the tendency of people to treat every product as if were as safe as that which is a normal regulated product.

I do not believe that is a fact of reality or human nature. The illegal drug market is enough to illustrate this.

That would be "by definition." The best which for which we could hope would be generic drugs in counterfeit packaging.

This points to one of the inherent inefficiencies of the BME. Government imposed standards and regulations allow people to trust the name on the package. When that is gone, one has to trust the person holding the package. This greatly reduces the potential market for any product.

Not by definition. It would be possible for a counterfeit to be just as good, just the company not paying the licensing fees (if it even can be licensed.) However, the reality is that if they're going to cheat like that they're very likely to be doing other unsavory things--at best it's just poor quality control, at worst it's diluted anti-infection agents that not only don't cure but they breed resistance and move the real drug one step closer to ineffective.

To be "just as good," which is to say, sell for the same price, it would have to be a generic equivalent in counterfeit packaging.

 

[NobleSavage]

The various dark markets on the internet usually develop a reputation and feed back system. I've seen a lot of lab results posted.

 

[bilby]

Let me derail my own thread: Anyone familiar with the other Systemd controversy?

I use RHEL for work, and various distros for personal use, and I reckon it is a storm in a teacup - but there is a lot of passion on both sides. Open source OS's are like that.

If pressed, I would say that Systemd is a good solution for non-techies; and as the Linux community is currently almost all techies, they hate it. But if Windows is going to be defeated, then Systemd may be part of the necessary compromise to get Windows users to stop paying through the nose for second-rate stuff, and start getting their second-rate stuff free of charge - which is IMO a step in the right direction.

Obviously the 2-3% of the user base who give a fuck will be scandalised by this compromise; but non-techie users actually want this kind of stuff - probably because they have Stockholm Syndrome after a lifetime of Microsoft serfdom.

 

[Canard DuJour]

IOW a crisis precipitated by deregulation and widespread financial insecurity tends to breed more unregulated activity and financial insecurity. Thanks to "the libertarian train of thought" more of us are on the way back to selling vegetables by the roadside.

There's a quite an active shadow economy amongst some of my friends. Car maintenance for cooked meals, website work for carpentry, people making things that either there isn't a mainstream market for (painted scenery and props for theatricals) or that people don't want to go commercial to get (vibrators and shackles for sex games). Lots of made-to-measure ball gowns, transportation of heavy goods (e.g. an aerial hoop for exotic dancing), snake hire (no, not kidding), protest organisation (what do you do if you have 300 students, a cause, and no communications or coordination?), and of course home-made items like beer, jam, soap and fireworks.

My favourite one was the ball organiser who got 12 of their friends to turn up and flirt with anyone who wasn't having a good time. They got 'paid' in a variety of way, such as by clearing away all the leftover refreshments and material at the end of the night, keeping the clothing they'd been given, or various other odds and ends over the previous or next few weeks.

This kind of exchange doesn't work on a strict commercial basis, and the people you do things for you aren't always the same people who pay you back, but it works quite well, and makes use of time, which the underemployed often have to spare.

Couldn't disagree with any of that. My point was that said underemployment and financial insecurity are symptoms of the casualisation of employment in the first place. The OP article is trying to frame the issue as if casualisation were the cure.

(some colourful folks you know, btw)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Not by definition. It would be possible for a counterfeit to be just as good, just the company not paying the licensing fees (if it even can be licensed.) However, the reality is that if they're going to cheat like that they're very likely to be doing other unsavory things--at best it's just poor quality control, at worst it's diluted anti-infection agents that not only don't cure but they breed resistance and move the real drug one step closer to ineffective.

To be "just as good," which is to say, sell for the same price, it would have to be a generic equivalent in counterfeit packaging.

The generic doesn't have to sell for the price of the name brand.

 

[Bronzeage]

To be "just as good," which is to say, sell for the same price, it would have to be a generic equivalent in counterfeit packaging.

The generic doesn't have to sell for the price of the name brand.

That is the point of making a generic. To qualify as a "counterfeit", under the common definition of the word, at some point in the chain, a person who knows the article is not genuine, must sell it to a person who thinks it is.

 

[Clivedurdle]

There are huge issues here. Slavery, prostitution, drugs, mafia, terrorism, illegal weapon transfers, health and safety, forgery...

All great for GDP but...

 

[NobleSavage]

The generic doesn't have to sell for the price of the name brand.

That is the point of making a generic. To qualify as a "counterfeit", under the common definition of the word, at some point in the chain, a person who knows the article is not genuine, must sell it to a person who thinks it is.

Do you make a distinction between replica, fake, and counterfeit? Lots of people knowingly go to street vendors in NYC and other city's to get fake watches, purses, and sunglasses. They know what they are buying. When they spam my email their advertising hook is that they are fake.

 

[Bronzeage]

That is the point of making a generic. To qualify as a "counterfeit", under the common definition of the word, at some point in the chain, a person who knows the article is not genuine, must sell it to a person who thinks it is.

Do you make a distinction between replica, fake, and counterfeit? Lots of people knowingly go to street vendors in NYC and other city's to get fake watches, purses, and sunglasses. They know what they are buying. When they spam my email their advertising hook is that they are fake.

I wonder how closely the street vendor looks at the $100 bill I offer in exchange for his counterfeit watches, purses, and sunglasses.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The generic doesn't have to sell for the price of the name brand.

That is the point of making a generic. To qualify as a "counterfeit", under the common definition of the word, at some point in the chain, a person who knows the article is not genuine, must sell it to a person who thinks it is.

The point is that a counterfeit *COULD* be of equal quality as what it fakes. That's not common, though.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

That is the point of making a generic. To qualify as a "counterfeit", under the common definition of the word, at some point in the chain, a person who knows the article is not genuine, must sell it to a person who thinks it is.

Do you make a distinction between replica, fake, and counterfeit? Lots of people knowingly go to street vendors in NYC and other city's to get fake watches, purses, and sunglasses. They know what they are buying. When they spam my email their advertising hook is that they are fake.

I still get a bit of a chuckle at all the vendors in China selling "genuine replica" watches.

 

[NobleSavage]

This is an interesting article on the dark markets on Tor http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-08/21/buying-drugs-on-the-dark-net