Tasmania May Nix “Gender” From Birth Certificates to Support Trans Rights

[RavenSky]

I didn't say it was important for identifying sex. I said it was important for identifying a person, and sex is a useful component of that...

And again I will ask why you think so?

Let's say I bring my child to a new public school to enroll. She dresses and looks and self-identifies as a girl. Why, in your opinion, would it be necessary for me to also produce a birth certificate to confirm her sex?

What? I am not claiming that it would be necessary to produce a birth certificate to confirm someone's sex. If the question is your child's sex, then that can be reliably told by various medical tests. I am not claiming that birth certificates are useful for determining sex, they merely record that determination.

This makes even less sense, then. Why record something if it is not going to be used?

Again, are you claiming sex is *not a useful identifying characteristic*?

I am exploring whether it is necessary to "record that determination" on a birth certificate. I'm leaning towards "no" because so far no one has been able to present any good reason for "yes"

 

[J842P]

What? I am not claiming that it would be necessary to produce a birth certificate to confirm someone's sex. If the question is your child's sex, then that can be reliably told by various medical tests. I am not claiming that birth certificates are useful for determining sex, they merely record that determination.

This makes even less sense, then. Why record something if it is not going to be used?

Again, are you claiming sex is *not a useful identifying characteristic*?

I am exploring whether it is necessary to "record that determination" on a birth certificate. I'm leaning towards "no" because so far no one has been able to present any good reason for "yes"

Um, ok, but your example doesn't address that at all. When you register your kid to go to school, they don't ask for their foot print either. That doesn't mean it isn't a useful piece of identifying information.

Sorry for the morbid example, but let's suppose a child turns up dead, and we are trying to identify this child. The child's sex would be very useful for identifying the body. As would any finger prints or foot prints.

 

[RavenSky]

This makes even less sense, then. Why record something if it is not going to be used?

I am exploring whether it is necessary to "record that determination" on a birth certificate. I'm leaning towards "no" because so far no one has been able to present any good reason for "yes"

Um, ok, but your example doesn't address that at all. When you register your kid to go to school, they don't ask for their foot print either. That doesn't mean it isn't a useful piece of identifying information.

The school DOES ask for a birth certificate - to verify age and U.S. citizenship. Not sex. So why does the birth certificate need to record what sex is assigned at birth?

Sorry for the morbid example, but let's suppose a child turns up dead, and we are trying to identify this child. The child's sex would be very useful for identifying the body. As would any finger prints or foot prints.

Yes, the footprints/fingerprints would be very useful; as would sex.

But this does not demonstrate why sex must be recorded on a birth certificate.

If my child were abducted, police would simply ask me for her description. I would likely be providing them with current photos; perhaps footprints/fingerprints/dental records. They would not be looking at her birth certificate to determine what sex she was assigned at birth.

 

[skepticalbip]

The school DOES ask for a birth certificate - to verify age and U.S. citizenship. Not sex. So why does the birth certificate need to record what sex is assigned at birth?

It is a legal document that is used by the government to determine:
Draft registration and status.
Eligibility for set aside business loans.
Eligibility for set aside scholarships.
Eligibility enrollment in women's colleges.
etc.
etc.

 

[repoman]

The school DOES ask for a birth certificate - to verify age and U.S. citizenship. Not sex. So why does the birth certificate need to record what sex is assigned at birth?

It is a legal document that is used by the government to determine:
Draft registration and status.
Eligibility for set aside business loans.
Eligibility for set aside scholarships.
Eligibility enrollment in women's colleges.
etc.
etc.

Don't you understand that even though people have good faith efforts to stop discrimination against both people who are physically intersex and psychologically (though that may have a root physical cause) transgender it is not enough. We have to stop all records of sex to do this.

A transphobe will still find a way to harass transgender and androgynous people.

So would a transman not get set woman's aside consideration because he is now a man, or will get a different consideration because he is trans? Or get both a woman's and a trans consideration?

At any rate, the transmen I have met seem pretty cool and as capable as everyone else at working and so on.

 

[Rhea]

Genuine question: Why do teachers need to use those terms?
I’ve been puzzling for a while over why anyone would need to know at any time, including on a passport, unless they were tryng to have children with you.

Genuinely would like to know why the gender identification is necessary outside of a reproductive agreement.

Just speaking for myself (no one else) I would like to have gender identification in some areas
1. Toilets - do not want to surprise nor be surprised
2. Clothes - No matter what I am told otherwise I find women are more attractive in ladies clothes than they are in men's clothes.
3. Gardening gloves - despite the alleged benefits of universal sizing I find that men's gloves fit my fat hands far better than ladies gloves.
4. Generally speaking the mean sizing men is larger than the mean sizing for women

I buy “men’s” gardenng gloves and “men’s” socks because they are the only ones big enough. But I am a “woman.” It turns out, I can just read a size on it and try them on, instead of getting out my birth certificate (and being wrong).

I don’t give a shit whether you think I’m “more attractive” if I wear certain clothes - since I am not trying to attract you. Nor, if I wore women’s clothes, would I welcome your attention.

I wear larger clothes than my husband. Should I get him a dress, then?

Don’t be surprised in a toilet by closing the door on the toilet. Oh, you want to pee in a trough? Doesn’t one have to get pretty darned close to peep at you? What if we “find it more attractive”? Aren’t we just entitled to ogle you because we find you attractive? You do... even when we don’t want t be surprised by that.

KNowing our genders does not help with any of these things.

 

[Rhea]

The school DOES ask for a birth certificate - to verify age and U.S. citizenship. Not sex. So why does the birth certificate need to record what sex is assigned at birth?

It is a legal document that is used by the government to determine:
Draft registration and status.
Eligibility for set aside business loans.
Eligibility for set aside scholarships.
Eligibility enrollment in women's colleges.
etc.
etc.

Draft should be banned or made equal

Do you think there are a very large number of men willing to live as women to get a loan?

 

[DrZoidberg]

We have gender on birth certificates because it's valuable information.

unsupported claim. Try again

Men have a whole bunch of genetic conditions unique to men. If the patient is a girl, it allows a medical practitioner to rapidly ignore a whole host of possible conditions. If it's a girl it's probably a good idea to tell the new father that wiping front to back, is the way to go. This little nugget of knowledge won't come naturally to him. It's also on the birth certificate, which means it'll work itself into other registers. Adult men and women, most certainly are different.

How about that for good arguments? But perhaps... most importantly... what's the harm? Why not?

 

[repoman]

Isn't much of the point having both society and the transgender person accept that is physically their birth sex and also psychologically the opposite sex?

Having people ignore the base reality of birth sex as a way of having fuller acceptance of transgenders is childish and this childishness will have consequences. Treat the transphobe with some level of the expectation that they can learn that mental state of gender can be at variance with birth sex and it is not a sign of trans being "head cases" and the transphobe can grow out of their ignorance.

There is a question of numbers here, a cis person often is unaware of trans people and even if kindly curious about how it works to be a trans person and not trying to be a pain in the ass, well... For the trans person, I wonder how many times the same conversation has to be made. It must be as annoying as hell. That is because they are rare.

But is the framing about what it like to be trans for the Joe and Jane Public cis people that is mainstream now (think buzzfeed video) way too pandering and SJW?

 

[angelo]

When I first read about this I checked the calendar to make sure it wasn't April 1st. I'd expect this political correctness gone star raving mad from a socialist Scandinavian utopia, not from a state with a Liberal [conservative] government in power.

 

[RavenSky]

We have gender on birth certificates because it's valuable information.

unsupported claim. Try again

Men have a whole bunch of genetic conditions unique to men. If the patient is a girl, it allows a medical practitioner to rapidly ignore a whole host of possible conditions.

I have never ever - not even once - had a doctor check my birth certificate to verify I am a female.

So, again, why is the designation necessary on a birth certificate?

If it's a girl it's probably a good idea to tell the new father that wiping front to back, is the way to go. This little nugget of knowledge won't come naturally to him.

Are you suggesting that new fathers are so stupid they cannot determine whether their newborn has female vs male vs intersex parts without checking the birth certificate each time they change diapers?

It's also on the birth certificate, which means it'll work itself into other registers.

This is the point of the OP. Why is it necessary? You still have not provided a valid reason.

How about that for good arguments?

None of them were good arguments

But perhaps... most importantly... what's the harm? Why not?

Because, as has already been shown via the right wing crazies, having a sex assignment noted on a birth certificate that does not match reality leads to all sorts of discrimination and harm.

Instructors at a Virginia middle school did not allow a transgender student to take shelter during a drill simulating how to hide from a school shooter.

The infamous “bathroom bills”—passed and partially repealed in North Carolina, and proposed in more than a dozen other states—were also birth-certificate based; they would make binding for life the assignment of sex performed at birth. In Whitaker v. Kenosha Unified School District, decided last year by the U.S. Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals, Ash Whitaker, a transgender boy, was denied permission to use the boys’ bathroom despite two letters from his physician. At oral argument, the district argued instead that it would only accept “a birth certificate that designated his sex as male.” The appeals court, holding for Ash, noted the “arbitrary nature” of reliance on birth certificates.

Gavin Grimm v. Gloucester County School Board was decided last month by the Fourth Circuit; Grimm, a transgender boy, was blocked from use of the boys’ room after parent complaints. Even when a Virginia court granted him an amended birth certificate, the school board would not budge, saying that his “biological gender” was still female. “The board’s argument,” the appeals court wrote, “rings hollow.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...cates-are-being-weaponized-once-again/562361/

I recommend reading the entire Atlantic article for an eye-opening history of how birth certificates have been used as a means of discrimination against ethnic minorities and women. Current political use of birth certificates to discriminate against transgender people is just another example in a long sordid history filled with outright lies.

 

[angelo]

Exactly how many true transgender people are there in the world? One in 1000, 500, 200 or less?
I think some are making a mountain out of a molehill. All are of the species homo sapiens, and there should be no discrimination against anyone. But not putting gender on a birth certificate is an idea dreamed up by a complete moron and should be placed where it belongs. In the rubbish bin!

 

[skepticalbip]

Exactly how many true transgender people are there in the world? One in 1000, 500, 200 or less?
I think some are making a mountain out of a molehill. All are of the species homo sapiens, and there should be no discrimination against anyone. But not putting gender on a birth certificate is an idea dreamed up by a complete moron and should be placed where it belongs. In the rubbish bin!

It is a sign of how little true problems we face today in the world's developed nations. While much of the world is concerned with real problems of life, we have to invent "crises" to worry about.

 

[steve_bank]

The progressive approach. The way to solve the problem is to portend it doesn't exist. It us an easy way out to a difficult social issue. If it is not on a piece of paper the problem is solved.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Men have a whole bunch of genetic conditions unique to men. If the patient is a girl, it allows a medical practitioner to rapidly ignore a whole host of possible conditions.

I have never ever - not even once - had a doctor check my birth certificate to verify I am a female.

So, again, why is the designation necessary on a birth certificate?

It's also on the birth certificate, which means it'll work itself into other registers.

This is the point of the OP. Why is it necessary? You still have not provided a valid reason.

I was thinking for statistical purposes. If it's not on the birth certificate, it's not in the statistical database. Let's say somebody has a theory that girls are treated worse than boys in school... then that information would be handy.

Having access to hard numbers on stuff helps science. Especially if our goal is to help a marginalised and weak group in society... like the transgendered.

But perhaps... most importantly... what's the harm? Why not?

Because, as has already been shown via the right wing crazies, having a sex assignment noted on a birth certificate that does not match reality leads to all sorts of discrimination and harm.

It does? I don't think so. I've yet to see anything that supports it. The right wing crazies won't stop being crazy just because we force them to jump through some hoops.

The infamous “bathroom bills”—passed and partially repealed in North Carolina, and proposed in more than a dozen other states—were also birth-certificate based; they would make binding for life the assignment of sex performed at birth. In Whitaker v. Kenosha Unified School District, decided last year by the U.S. Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals, Ash Whitaker, a transgender boy, was denied permission to use the boys’ bathroom despite two letters from his physician. At oral argument, the district argued instead that it would only accept “a birth certificate that designated his sex as male.” The appeals court, holding for Ash, noted the “arbitrary nature” of reliance on birth certificates.

Gavin Grimm v. Gloucester County School Board was decided last month by the Fourth Circuit; Grimm, a transgender boy, was blocked from use of the boys’ room after parent complaints. Even when a Virginia court granted him an amended birth certificate, the school board would not budge, saying that his “biological gender” was still female. “The board’s argument,” the appeals court wrote, “rings hollow.”

Please explain why we should gender bathrooms at all? Isn't that the problem?

When I went to school in Sweden we never had gendered bathrooms. I can't recall any school I went to that did. How about that solution? Just remove the genders from the bathroom. In Scandinavian culture in general, gendered bathrooms are becoming increasingly rare. Today it's just something associated with

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...cates-are-being-weaponized-once-again/562361/

I recommend reading the entire Atlantic article for an eye-opening history of how birth certificates have been used as a means of discrimination against ethnic minorities and women. Current political use of birth certificates to discriminate against transgender people is just another example in a long sordid history filled with outright lies.

Shooting the messenger won't fix the problem. The problem is the discrimination. Not what's on the birth certificate.

 

[angelo]

Methinks that apart from some religious nut jobs or ideologies like Islam. The problem of discrimination is way overblown! Most of the population of Western Democratic nations do not discriminate against anyone.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Methinks that apart from some religious nut jobs or ideologies like Islam. The problem of discrimination is way overblown! Most of the population of Western Democratic nations do not discriminate against anyone.

I'm not so sure. We're often not aware of how we discriminate others. And that's the problem. If you belong to the majority culture it's easy to become blind to the struggles of others.

But I think you have a point with that it's often overblown. The world is full of white knights exaggerating the problems of discrimination.

Mainstream feminists today are still complaining about patriarchal oppression. Which is increasingly starting to seem to be nothing but a bogeyman.

 

[skepticalbip]

I have never ever - not even once - had a doctor check my birth certificate to verify I am a female.

So, again, why is the designation necessary on a birth certificate?

This is the point of the OP. Why is it necessary? You still have not provided a valid reason.

I was thinking for statistical purposes. If it's not on the birth certificate, it's not in the statistical database. Let's say somebody has a theory that girls are treated worse than boys in school... then that information would be handy.

Having access to hard numbers on stuff helps science. Especially if our goal is to help a marginalised and weak group in society... like the transgendered.

Not only helps science but government too and those fighting for female representation in business. In the US we have laws against gender discrimination, usually enforced against companies where suits are lodged demanding more female representation. Without a legal establishment of sex, there is nothing preventing a company with an all male policy (if there is such a thing) having half their employees identify as female on their company records - they immediately are "gender balanced" so immune from such suits.

The problem with movements like this is that they are so single focused on a specific cause they never consider the consequences of what would result if their demands were met.

 

[repoman]

I was listening last night to a ~ 3 year old interview of two anti-SJW transgenders by the guy who put Gamergate over the critical mass with his videos about Zoe Quinn. So there was a lot of different ideas batted around compared to the standard dogma.

So one thing they mentioned is that transgenders can have a dilemma as to whether to be a representative for trans people or to live as their correct gender and even go to a new city and leave their past and birth sex behind.

 

[Lion IRC]

Abolishing sex designation on birth certificates (and prenatal ultrasounds) is just part of the long march towards absolute gender fluidity. Total self-identity autonomy.
Next comes the deletion of date of birth.
Age of consent is a social construct too.