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Texas government now actively terrorizing families of trans kids

SigmatheZeta

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Generally, I am rooted in both ancient Epicurean and ancient Pyrrhonist sentiments, although I am somewhat sympathetic toward the intentions behind ancient Cynicism.

Do I sometimes seem to be a little bit paranoid, when it comes to LGBTQ issues? There is a saying by Joseph Heller that goes, "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you." Shit is currently in the process of going utterly sideways for many American LGBTQ, especially transgender Americans. In this case, an authoritarian government is now actively terrorizing and intimidating the families of transgender youth.

This is getting serious, and we need to act.
 

SigmatheZeta

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Generally, I am rooted in both ancient Epicurean and ancient Pyrrhonist sentiments, although I am somewhat sympathetic toward the intentions behind ancient Cynicism.

Jarhyn

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Jarhyn

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con·cern trol·ling
noun
DEROGATORY•INFORMAL
the action or practice of disingenuously expressing concern about an issue in order to undermine or derail genuine discussion.

The concern expressed (preventing young people from making hasty surgical interventions) does not align with the effect of the law (forcing more, and more impactful surgical interventions upon people because their bodies pass a point of no return that the law forces them to cross, by prohibiting blockers).
 

TomC

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con·cern trol·ling
noun
DEROGATORY•INFORMAL
the action or practice of disingenuously expressing concern about an issue in order to undermine or derail genuine discussion.

The concern expressed (preventing young people from making hasty surgical interventions) does not align with the effect of the law (forcing more, and more impactful surgical interventions upon people because their bodies pass a point of no return that the law forces them to cross, by prohibiting blockers).

I don't think that the OP intended that, but yeah that's what it looks like to me as well.
Tom
 

Trausti

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What is happening in Alabama is even worse. Holy shit.

[removed]
Would be great if we’d quit telling young people that there is something wrong with them that needs to be fixed.
 
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ZiprHead

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What is happening in Alabama is even worse. Holy shit.

[removed]
Would be great if we’d quit telling young people that there is something wrong with them that needs to be fixed.
Yeah, that's the problem. :picardfacepalm:
 
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TomC

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Would be great if we’d quit telling young people that there is something wrong with them that needs to be fixed.
That's not what I see going on here.

Young people deciding for themselves that there's something wrong with them is quite different. That happens all too often.

The problem I have with this is the premise that the young people are competent to decide what to do. I don't think that they are, as a group. That's why we have concepts like "age of consent" and such. To protect young people from themselves, very largely, and also from people who would influence them to their own ends as well.
Tom
 

SigmatheZeta

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Generally, I am rooted in both ancient Epicurean and ancient Pyrrhonist sentiments, although I am somewhat sympathetic toward the intentions behind ancient Cynicism.
What is happening in Alabama is even worse. Holy shit.

[remvoved]
Would be great if we’d quit telling young people that there is something wrong with them that needs to be fixed.
Yeah, that's the problem. :picardfacepalm:
What most people don't realize is that transgender youth often are fighting to try to get gender-affirming care in spite of opposition from their relatives, and they often have to resort to questionable and dangerous gray market sources in order to obtain stuff like puberty-blocker medications. Those parents that eventually support their kids often don't come around until after their kids have already made at least one attempt at suicide.

Like I said, shit is currently going sideways for the LGBTQ community, particularly for transgender people. This is getting serious.
 
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Jimmy Higgins

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Would be great if we’d quit telling young people that there is something wrong with them that needs to be fixed.
That's not what I see going on here.

Young people deciding for themselves that there's something wrong with them is quite different. That happens all too often.

The problem I have with this is the premise that the young people are competent to decide what to do. I don't think that they are, as a group. That's why we have concepts like "age of consent" and such. To protect young people from themselves, very largely, and also from people who would influence them to their own ends as well.
Tom
[removed]
Yup. Nothing like outrageous accusations against people you don't know.
 
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SigmatheZeta

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Generally, I am rooted in both ancient Epicurean and ancient Pyrrhonist sentiments, although I am somewhat sympathetic toward the intentions behind ancient Cynicism.
Would be great if we’d quit telling young people that there is something wrong with them that needs to be fixed.
That's not what I see going on here.

Young people deciding for themselves that there's something wrong with them is quite different. That happens all too often.

The problem I have with this is the premise that the young people are competent to decide what to do. I don't think that they are, as a group. That's why we have concepts like "age of consent" and such. To protect young people from themselves, very largely, and also from people who would influence them to their own ends as well.
Tom

Forcing a transgender boy to go through female puberty, when there are medical alternatives, is a lunatic way to treat a kid. Telling a boy that you won't allow him to do anything at all to reverse the effects of female puberty until he has completely transformed into an adult woman is just going to cause him to kill himself. This is just a scientific fact.

There is a reason why the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends gender-affirming care for youth: providing gender-affirming care and the support of their families reduces the likelihood of a transgender kid attempting suicide from 60% to only 4%. This is a large difference, and as a consequence, gender-affirming care is literally a life-saving intervention.


The evidence on this is well-documented.

It is an absolutely normal part of our culture for doctors to attempt to provide care that could save the lives of their patients. This idea has been a part of the culture of western society for about 2,400 years. From my point-of-view, it seems like a very good idea to just let doctors do their jobs.
 

TSwizzle

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Would be great if we’d quit telling young people that there is something wrong with them that needs to be fixed.

It’s outrageous that these ideologues think the de facto solution to adolescent angst is always, always “we will start the transition now, don’t tell your parents”.
 

bilby

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The world is a very simple and straightforward place. Everything within it conforms to easy, well understood rules, and fits into clearly defined and well ordered categories, with one, two or at most three, basic types of literally anything.

In the event that something is encountered that doesn't fit into this framework, that thing is (simultaneously) an error of perception, that can be ignored; And an existential threat that must be destroyed. The first of these responses requires (of course) that the second be executed without thought, delay, or the slightest hint of mercy.

There are two genders, and nothing exists outside that framework. Anyone who dares suggest that something else exists is either joking or lying. And inconvenient evidence that something else exists, where we already know there is nothing, must be destroyed. In particular, anything that exists outside the framework of two genders must be destroyed immediately, because it doesn't exist.

It's right-wing authoritarianism 101. Deviation from a very limited set of very simplistic rules is an intolerable and existential threat to good order, justifice, and the stability of The Reich our nation.
 

SigmatheZeta

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Generally, I am rooted in both ancient Epicurean and ancient Pyrrhonist sentiments, although I am somewhat sympathetic toward the intentions behind ancient Cynicism.
Funny, I actually had the experience of my own father attempting to brainwash me into being cis-male, and all that really did was make me into a transgender girl that knew how to skin a deer, roll herself back upright after taking a tumble on a dirt-bike, aim down a rifle sight and pull the trigger on the exhale, cut a fishing hook out of a fish, and skin and fillet the fish after getting it home.

Hah, you want to know something crazy? I am a transgender woman that came from a profoundly unsupportive conservative evangelical household, and I grew up in a household full of guns, hunting knives, and one World War II military katana. Somehow, I made it to adulthood without attempting to kill myself even once.

I'm not sure what makes some of us resistant.

I have a guess. I think that recognizing that most people are full of shit helped.
 

Trausti

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Shot.


The Salt star, 35, admits she dresses Shiloh, 4, "like a little dude. Shiloh, we feel, has Montenegro style. It's how people dress there. She likes tracksuits, she likes [regular] suits. She likes to dress like a boy. She wants to be a boy. So we had to cut her hair. She likes to wear boys' everything. She thinks she's one of the brothers."

Chaser.

FP25N9MUYAM4ypg


She got lucky. If she had been born a few years later she'd have had mutilation surgery and been pumped with Mengele drugs.
 

JohnG

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Hate to say it but I would be extremely paranoid. The RWNJs & culture warriors believe you have a mental disorder, or don't exist. They will be recommending "rehabilitation" in 5, 4, 3...
 

Trausti

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Would be great if we’d quit telling young people that there is something wrong with them that needs to be fixed.
That's not what I see going on here.

Young people deciding for themselves that there's something wrong with them is quite different. That happens all too often.

The problem I have with this is the premise that the young people are competent to decide what to do. I don't think that they are, as a group. That's why we have concepts like "age of consent" and such. To protect young people from themselves, very largely, and also from people who would influence them to their own ends as well.
Tom
[removed]
Yup. Nothing like outrageous accusations against people you don't know. You do it all the time.

This pilot study compared mothers of boys with gender identity disorder (GID) with mothers of normal boys to determine whether differences in psychopathology and child-rearing attitudes and practices could be identified. Results of the Diagnostic Interview for Borderlines and the Beck Depression Inventory revealed that mothers of boys with GID had more symptoms of depression and more often met the criteria for Borderline Personality Disorder than the controls. Fifty-three percent of the mothers of boys with GID compared with only 6% of controls met the diagnosis for Borderline Personality Disorder on the Diagnostic Interview for Borderlines or had symptoms of depression on the Beck Depression Inventory.
 
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Trausti

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Funny, I actually had the experience of my own father attempting to brainwash me into being cis-male, and all that really did was make me into a transgender girl that knew how to skin a deer, roll herself back upright after taking a tumble on a dirt-bike, aim down a rifle sight and pull the trigger on the exhale, cut a fishing hook out of a fish, and skin and fillet the fish after getting it home.

Hah, you want to know something crazy? I am a transgender woman that came from a profoundly unsupportive conservative evangelical household, and I grew up in a household full of guns, hunting knives, and one World War II military katana. Somehow, I made it to adulthood without attempting to kill myself even once.

I'm not sure what makes some of us resistant.

I have a guess. I think that recognizing that most people are full of shit helped.
The issue is about family or social pressure on children to make irreversible life decisions before maturity. Just because a girl plays with trucks doesn't mean she's was born in the wrong body. It's just so curious that there's this rush to get kids cut up and on hormones before age 18.
 

Trausti

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FPWwGTXWYAUhSkz

FPWwHxkXsAowaeD


The existence of detransitioners is reason enough to avoid irreversible procedures on the young.
 

Jarhyn

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I find it stunning the terrible faith that the fascist right applies to the issues claiming that people are trying to force irreversible procedures on kids.

To look at such tactics is concern trolling in the most charitable light: the law bans BLOCKERS!

These laws guarantee that people will need to "butcher" their body to get it to even a semblance of what they wish to see.

Blockers, the only way to even possibly avoid surgical interventions, allow those who wish to transition the power to do so without closing a door.

Those who desist are not in any way significantly harmed from being delayed of puberty for a year or two while they figure themselves out.

Those who persistently push to start a puberty under the review of doctors, parents, and teachers also are freed from the need for surgical interventions.

Thus it is again clear that the right is concern trolling the issue, and causing the very problems they claim to wish to avoid.
 

Metaphor

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Would be great if we’d quit telling young people that there is something wrong with them that needs to be fixed.
That's not what I see going on here.

Young people deciding for themselves that there's something wrong with them is quite different. That happens all too often.

The problem I have with this is the premise that the young people are competent to decide what to do. I don't think that they are, as a group. That's why we have concepts like "age of consent" and such. To protect young people from themselves, very largely, and also from people who would influence them to their own ends as well.
Tom

Forcing a transgender boy
A girl

to go through female puberty, when there are medical alternatives, is a lunatic way to treat a kid.
It is 'lunatic' only if you have complete faith in gender ideology. Not all of us are believers.

Telling a boy that you won't allow him to do anything at all to reverse the effects of female puberty until he has completely transformed into an adult woman is just going to cause him to kill himself. This is just a scientific fact.
No, it will not cause her to kill herself. The spectre of suicide is an ever-present fire-and-brimstone talking point of gender ideologists, but the gender ideologists simply state their assertion as if it were fact, and neglect to mention that pre and post-transition trans people have no difference in suicide rates.

There is a reason why the American Academy of Pediatrics
The American Academy of Pediatrics also condones the mutilation of the genitals of baby boys. It is pro-mutilation. I am not impressed by their recommendations.

 

Metaphor

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I find it stunning the terrible faith that the fascist right applies to the issues claiming that people are trying to force irreversible procedures on kids.
Your hypocrisy is stunning. You yourself have said you do not think youth should have surgeries, yet you did not speak in favour of the surgery-blocking.

To look at such tactics is concern trolling in the most charitable light: the law bans BLOCKERS!

These laws guarantee that people will need to "butcher" their body to get it to even a semblance of what they wish to see.

Blockers, the only way to even possibly avoid surgical interventions, allow those who wish to transition the power to do so without closing a door.
As usual, that's the exact opposite of the truth. Boys who have been on puberty blockers often don't have enough material for butchers to fashion their pre-pubescent penises into pseudovaginas.

 

SigmatheZeta

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Do not be deceived by someone that argues in tweets, demonization, and propaganda.

Again, I want to remind everyone of the policy statement that reflects the current position of the American Academy of Pediatrics:


Furthermore, here is a statement of support that was released only months ago by the leadership of the Federation of Pediatric Associations, which includes several different pediatric associations in its membership:

3/28/2022
Statement in Support of Transgender Children and Youth,
their Families, and Health Care Providers
We stand with pediatricians who partner with families every day to make the best possible decision
for each individual child based on available research and evidence pertinent to that child’s care.
Transgender and gender diverse children and youth deserve to lead safe, healthy lives in
environments that allow them to be their authentic selves. That can only happen if physicians are
allowed to treat these children in the same manner, and with the same respect, that we expect
them to treat every other child. Our mission to advance child health will succeed only if we work to
improve health outcomes for all children.
The Federation of Pediatric Organizations is comprised of the Academic Pediatric Association, American Academy of
Pediatrics, American Board of Pediatrics, American Pediatric Society, Association of Medical School Pediatric
Department Chairs, Association of Pediatric Program Directors, and Society for Pediatric Research. The purpose of the
federation is to promote optimal health for children by building on the efforts and expertise of the member organizations,
and on the relationships between the member organizations to accomplish shared goals.

Furthermore, the pseudoscience that supposedly justifies these laws has been found to be based on deliberate omissions and erroneous claims, and it has been comprehensively debunked:


Furthermore, puberty-blocker medication alone, which is the most easily reversible form of hormone therapy, has been found to reduce suicidal ideation in transgender youth by 73%:


Please, everyone, look to real science. There is very nearly a consensus, among pediatric organizations, in support of gender-affirming care. Do not be deceived by pseudoscience, and do not be deceived by a lunatic that argues in tweets. Stand up for reason.
 

SigmatheZeta

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Generally, I am rooted in both ancient Epicurean and ancient Pyrrhonist sentiments, although I am somewhat sympathetic toward the intentions behind ancient Cynicism.
By the way, I want to point something out, here. The same group of people are making two conflicting arguments:
A) they argue that they should not be criticized for misgendering a transgender woman that has a masculine-sounding voice, a masculine-looking height, and a masculine-looking bone-structure, and they claim that it is ridiculous and unfair that they should be expected to validate such a person as a woman.​
B) they also claim that parents that help their children receive gender-affirming care during puberty, thereby giving them a chance at living normal lives, should be treated as criminals, and they are defending laws that would have the pediatricians that help them branded as felons.​

Notice that these are the same exact people. Stop pretending that they are not the vicious punks they are.
 

Jarhyn

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By the way, I want to point something out, here. The same group of people are making two conflicting arguments:
A) they argue that they should not be criticized for misgendering a transgender woman that has a masculine-sounding voice, a masculine-looking height, and a masculine-looking bone-structure, and they claim that it is ridiculous and unfair that they should be expected to validate such a person as a woman.​
B) they also claim that parents that help their children receive gender-affirming care during puberty, thereby giving them a chance at living normal lives, should be treated as criminals, and they are defending laws that would have the pediatricians that help them branded as felons.​

Notice that these are the same exact people. Stop pretending that they are not the vicious punks they are.
Really, their goal is to force kids into growing up looking like gender stereotypes which they hate.

They want trans people to be forced to "give their birth gonads/hormone system a try" as if they haven't seen the results of that already in their parents, peers, and upper classpersons and NOPED right the hell away from that.

And apparently metaphor still hasn't heard about DHT cream.
 

Metaphor

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By the way, I want to point something out, here. The same group of people are making two conflicting arguments:
A) they argue that they should not be criticized for misgendering a transgender woman that has a masculine-sounding voice, a masculine-looking height, and a masculine-looking bone-structure, and they claim that it is ridiculous and unfair that they should be expected to validate such a person as a woman.​
Ridiculous and unfair and immoral that you should bully people into uttering things they do not believe, certainly. But that doesn't stop the demands from the gender ideologues.

B) they also claim that parents that help their children receive gender-affirming care during puberty,​
Sex is not gender, so why is medically [removed] the bodies of children 'gender affirming'?

thereby giving them a chance at living normal lives, should be treated as criminals, and they are defending laws that would have the pediatricians that help them branded as felons.​

Notice that these are the same exact people. Stop pretending that they are not the vicious punks they are.
You believe there is a conflict between the two positions. There is none.
 
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An Internet Troll is a person who delights in sowing discord on the Internet. He tries to start arguments and upset or provoke people using inflammatory language or analogies. For some reason, they don’t "get" that they are hurting real people. To them, other Internet users are not quite human but are a kind of digital abstraction. As a result, they feel no sorrow whatsoever for the pain they inflict. Indeed, the greater the suffering they cause, the greater their ‘achievement’ (as they see it). They exploit the relative anonymity of the net to flourish.

Brinking, also termed as Edgelording – Testing rules by repeatedly getting as close as possible to breaking them without stepping over the line. Sometimes used to provoke others over the line, stir up trouble in a discussion, or to create difficulty for moderators.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Would be great if we’d quit telling young people that there is something wrong with them that needs to be fixed.
Except they're the ones saying there's something that needs to be fixed. Your argument is a strawman.
 

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The issue is about family or social pressure on children to make irreversible life decisions before maturity. Just because a girl plays with trucks doesn't mean she's was born in the wrong body. It's just so curious that there's this rush to get kids cut up and on hormones before age 18.
Puberty blockers are not irreversible. Living as the other gender is not irreversible. That's all most people want for the under 18 crowd.
 

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No, it will not cause her to kill herself. The spectre of suicide is an ever-present fire-and-brimstone talking point of gender ideologists, but the gender ideologists simply state their assertion as if it were fact, and neglect to mention that pre and post-transition trans people have no difference in suicide rates.
The proper comparison is between those allowed to transition and those blocked from it.
 

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I would honestly love an inside look into the mindset that drive such "lies for Jesus", especially about trans people.

It's one of the most baffling things to me even as someone raised in the evangelical fundieverse.

It's just constant rhetoric about kids being harmed, when it has been demonstrated time and again that affirmation surgeries are avoided by hormonal interventions, are not offered to minors, and that the most common hormonal intervention in that age range, blockers, are entirely reversible in effect by simply ceasing to take them.

So where does the impetus to lie about this come from? Where does the justification spring from? I just don't get it why this is such an enemy to be hated other than, perhaps, than having the mindset that people ought not get choices because the choices denied were of them... But that isn't helping anyone, it's just hurting them because whoever-it-was also got hurt.

I can see folks who were denied the opportunity to so much as THINK about being something other than "a woman like her mother" or "a gay" or "a man like his father" harboring such a grudge, but it is not helpful!

I am tempted on occasion to embed myself in a cluster of transphobes until I see one speak the quiet part out loud? But I expect not even that will get me into the mindset of the sort of person that invents such lies. It may even be a subtext that is spoken unconsciously, the quiet part being something spoken from one subconscious to another in dog whistles and unnoticed and even unintentional structure of implication in communications.

It's a fascinating psychology, but one that confuses me greatly as to what thought process, at it's core, leads to the hate that motivates these laws.
 
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SigmatheZeta

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Generally, I am rooted in both ancient Epicurean and ancient Pyrrhonist sentiments, although I am somewhat sympathetic toward the intentions behind ancient Cynicism.
The issue is about family or social pressure on children to make irreversible life decisions before maturity. Just because a girl plays with trucks doesn't mean she's was born in the wrong body. It's just so curious that there's this rush to get kids cut up and on hormones before age 18.
Puberty blockers are not irreversible. Living as the other gender is not irreversible. That's all most people want for the under 18 crowd.
Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers, but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor. If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.
 

Rhea

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Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers, but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor. If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.

… that doesn’t seem like a terribly solid argument for it…
 

SigmatheZeta

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Generally, I am rooted in both ancient Epicurean and ancient Pyrrhonist sentiments, although I am somewhat sympathetic toward the intentions behind ancient Cynicism.
Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers, but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor. If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.

… that doesn’t seem like a terribly solid argument for it…
Transgender kids actually do tend to suffer in their grades if not treated early, though. This a serious problem because it can be harder for many of them to establish good careers later.

Self-harm is a big problem, but it is not the only problem that occurs in transgender kids. It was never a problem for me in spite of my other challenges and an abusive family environmemt on top of that.

The place where I suffered was in my grades. An entrenched cynicism and also the amplified need to escape, mentally, from an intolerable reality was a serious problem. Even in college, I ended up doing better in online courses than in person, and unfortunately, I only came to that late.
 

Rhea

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Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers, but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor. If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.

… that doesn’t seem like a terribly solid argument for it…
Transgender kids actually do tend to suffer in their grades if not treated early, though. This a serious problem because it can be harder for many of them to establish good careers later.

Self-harm is a big problem, but it is not the only problem that occurs in transgender kids. It was never a problem for me in spite of my other challenges and an abusive family environmemt on top of that.

The place where I suffered was in my grades. An entrenched cynicism and also the amplified need to escape, mentally, from an intolerable reality was a serious problem. Even in college, I ended up doing better in online courses than in person, and unfortunately, I only came to that late.


I get that grades suffer. It just doesn’t seem like a solid reason to move from reversible hormone blocker to irreversible surgery in younger trans kids.

Algebra can be fixed.

Your initial point, or Loren’s, I think, was that for minor children, it is highly unusual to use surgical or non-reversible therapies. Which seems appropriate and logical to most audiences, even those who do not understand trans needs.

But the follow up point, that this can be discarded if grades are suffering, does not strike me as a strong supporting argument. If a therapy is not recommended, then grades does not seem like a good reason to override that, in my personal opinion.

Self harm moves that needle, but not grades.
 

SigmatheZeta

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Generally, I am rooted in both ancient Epicurean and ancient Pyrrhonist sentiments, although I am somewhat sympathetic toward the intentions behind ancient Cynicism.
Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers, but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor. If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.

… that doesn’t seem like a terribly solid argument for it…
Transgender kids actually do tend to suffer in their grades if not treated early, though. This a serious problem because it can be harder for many of them to establish good careers later.

Self-harm is a big problem, but it is not the only problem that occurs in transgender kids. It was never a problem for me in spite of my other challenges and an abusive family environmemt on top of that.

The place where I suffered was in my grades. An entrenched cynicism and also the amplified need to escape, mentally, from an intolerable reality was a serious problem. Even in college, I ended up doing better in online courses than in person, and unfortunately, I only came to that late.


I get that grades suffer. It just doesn’t seem like a solid reason to move from reversible hormone blocker to irreversible surgery in younger trans kids.

Algebra can be fixed.

Your initial point, or Loren’s, I think, was that for minor children, it is highly unusual to use surgical or non-reversible therapies. Which seems appropriate and logical to most audiences, even those who do not understand trans needs.

But the follow up point, that this can be discarded if grades are suffering, does not strike me as a strong supporting argument. If a therapy is not recommended, then grades does not seem like a good reason to override that, in my personal opinion.

Self harm moves that needle, but not grades.
Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers, but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor. If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.

… that doesn’t seem like a terribly solid argument for it…
Transgender kids actually do tend to suffer in their grades if not treated early, though. This a serious problem because it can be harder for many of them to establish good careers later.

Self-harm is a big problem, but it is not the only problem that occurs in transgender kids. It was never a problem for me in spite of my other challenges and an abusive family environmemt on top of that.

The place where I suffered was in my grades. An entrenched cynicism and also the amplified need to escape, mentally, from an intolerable reality was a serious problem. Even in college, I ended up doing better in online courses than in person, and unfortunately, I only came to that late.


I get that grades suffer. It just doesn’t seem like a solid reason to move from reversible hormone blocker to irreversible surgery in younger trans kids.

Algebra can be fixed.

Your initial point, or Loren’s, I think, was that for minor children, it is highly unusual to use surgical or non-reversible therapies. Which seems appropriate and logical to most audiences, even those who do not understand trans needs.

But the follow up point, that this can be discarded if grades are suffering, does not strike me as a strong supporting argument. If a therapy is not recommended, then grades does not seem like a good reason to override that, in my personal opinion.

Self harm moves that needle, but not grades.
I respectfully disagree. I deny that full HRT ought to be seen only as a "last resort" to save a person's life. I believe that the motive of overall improving someone's quality of life is more than adequate.

Visible self-injury is only one kind of self-injurious behavior. The internal experience of dissociating in order to avoid dealing with intolerable conditions is just as harmful, in the long-run.
 

SigmatheZeta

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Generally, I am rooted in both ancient Epicurean and ancient Pyrrhonist sentiments, although I am somewhat sympathetic toward the intentions behind ancient Cynicism.
@Rhea Many people here have the mistaken impression that the care given to transgender youth is one-size-fits all. Puberty-blockers are not always adequate, and I think it would be reckless and irresponsible to insist on visible self-injury as the only possible justification in moving beyond it. That is like sending a message to kids, "if you want to start HRT, you have to earn it by cutting yourself." That is monstrous, but that is the message you would send.

The AAP actually states openly that there is no one-size-fits-all solution.


And maybe you do not remember being a kid very well. I do. Lagging grades are usually a sign of a stressed-out student.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Funny, I actually had the experience of my own father attempting to brainwash me into being cis-male, and all that really did was make me into a transgender girl that knew how to skin a deer, roll herself back upright after taking a tumble on a dirt-bike, aim down a rifle sight and pull the trigger on the exhale, cut a fishing hook out of a fish, and skin and fillet the fish after getting it home.

Hah, you want to know something crazy? I am a transgender woman that came from a profoundly unsupportive conservative evangelical household, and I grew up in a household full of guns, hunting knives, and one World War II military katana. Somehow, I made it to adulthood without attempting to kill myself even once.

I'm not sure what makes some of us resistant.

I have a guess. I think that recognizing that most people are full of shit helped.
The issue is about family or social pressure on children to make irreversible life decisions before maturity. Just because a girl plays with trucks doesn't mean she's was born in the wrong body. It's just so curious that there's this rush to get kids cut up and on hormones before age 18.
Meanwhile, in the real world, girls who play with trucks aren’t being forced to become boys across the globe.

And children aren’t being rushed to change genders by the hundreds of thousands. It is so easy to simplify this into a nonsensical fantasy land, but if we are to discuss protecting children and their rights, it’d be best to stick with reality.

That’d include not being restricted to reddit and Twitter for sources. This is a highly complicated and emerging (social wise) issue. Not some binary, drop your kid off at he gender clinic Q-Anon conspiracy.
 

Playball40

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Would be great if we’d quit telling young people that there is something wrong with them that needs to be fixed.

It’s outrageous that these ideologues think the de facto solution to adolescent angst is always, always “we will start the transition now, don’t tell your parents”.
This is such absolute BULLSHIT clearly from someone who has never lived or had a TG child.
 

Playball40

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The issue is about family or social pressure on children to make irreversible life decisions before maturity. Just because a girl plays with trucks doesn't mean she's was born in the wrong body. It's just so curious that there's this rush to get kids cut up and on hormones before age 18.
Puberty blockers are not irreversible. Living as the other gender is not irreversible. That's all most people want for the under 18 crowd.
Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers, but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor. If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.
Actually for our family, it took many years of pediatricians, general practitioners, psychologists and psychiatrists and child endocrinologists (and 16 years old) before my son could get gender affirming HRT. People trying to claim that it's being prescribed willy nilly has never lived it. And unfortunately, like most things the radical right get their hands on, this will force people to the illegal market with no medical oversight or even worse a huge uptick in teen suicide.
 

Playball40

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@Rhea Many people here have the mistaken impression that the care given to transgender youth is one-size-fits all. Puberty-blockers are not always adequate, and I think it would be reckless and irresponsible to insist on visible self-injury as the only possible justification in moving beyond it. That is like sending a message to kids, "if you want to start HRT, you have to earn it by cutting yourself." That is monstrous, but that is the message you would send.

The AAP actually states openly that there is no one-size-fits-all solution.


And maybe you do not remember being a kid very well. I do. Lagging grades are usually a sign of a stressed-out student.
My baby's body is scarred beyond repair from cutting. People simply do not understand. I'm so thankful that RIGHT NOW my son is safe - but if Alabama's law hits FL, he won't be.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Reminds me of Terri Schiavo, and the lies about the husband and the judge. Accusations mean more than truth to the alt-right.

They have no idea how much they have radicalized.
 

Playball40

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Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers, but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor. If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.

… that doesn’t seem like a terribly solid argument for it…
Transgender kids actually do tend to suffer in their grades if not treated early, though. This a serious problem because it can be harder for many of them to establish good careers later.

Self-harm is a big problem, but it is not the only problem that occurs in transgender kids. It was never a problem for me in spite of my other challenges and an abusive family environmemt on top of that.

The place where I suffered was in my grades. An entrenched cynicism and also the amplified need to escape, mentally, from an intolerable reality was a serious problem. Even in college, I ended up doing better in online courses than in person, and unfortunately, I only came to that late.


I get that grades suffer. It just doesn’t seem like a solid reason to move from reversible hormone blocker to irreversible surgery in younger trans kids.

Algebra can be fixed.

Your initial point, or Loren’s, I think, was that for minor children, it is highly unusual to use surgical or non-reversible therapies. Which seems appropriate and logical to most audiences, even those who do not understand trans needs.

But the follow up point, that this can be discarded if grades are suffering, does not strike me as a strong supporting argument. If a therapy is not recommended, then grades does not seem like a good reason to override that, in my personal opinion.

Self harm moves that needle, but not grades.
Doctors do not perform gender affirming surgeries on minors anymore than doctors perform "third trimester" abortions.
 

SigmatheZeta

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Generally, I am rooted in both ancient Epicurean and ancient Pyrrhonist sentiments, although I am somewhat sympathetic toward the intentions behind ancient Cynicism.
The issue is about family or social pressure on children to make irreversible life decisions before maturity. Just because a girl plays with trucks doesn't mean she's was born in the wrong body. It's just so curious that there's this rush to get kids cut up and on hormones before age 18.
Puberty blockers are not irreversible. Living as the other gender is not irreversible. That's all most people want for the under 18 crowd.
Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers, but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor. If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.
Actually for our family, it took many years of pediatricians, general practitioners, psychologists and psychiatrists and child endocrinologists (and 16 years old) before my son could get gender affirming HRT. People trying to claim that it's being prescribed willy nilly has never lived it. And unfortunately, like most things the radical right get their hands on, this will force people to the illegal market with no medical oversight or even worse a huge uptick in teen suicide.
Thank you for stepping in as someone that has direct experience. You are probably better equipped to inform @Rhea on this. I do understand enough that what you have said sounds close enough to the picture I had.
 
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