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Texas government now actively terrorizing families of trans kids

SigmatheZeta

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Generally, I am rooted in both ancient Epicurean and ancient Pyrrhonist sentiments, although I am somewhat sympathetic toward the intentions behind ancient Cynicism.
Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers, but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor. If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.

… that doesn’t seem like a terribly solid argument for it…
Transgender kids actually do tend to suffer in their grades if not treated early, though. This a serious problem because it can be harder for many of them to establish good careers later.

Self-harm is a big problem, but it is not the only problem that occurs in transgender kids. It was never a problem for me in spite of my other challenges and an abusive family environmemt on top of that.

The place where I suffered was in my grades. An entrenched cynicism and also the amplified need to escape, mentally, from an intolerable reality was a serious problem. Even in college, I ended up doing better in online courses than in person, and unfortunately, I only came to that late.


I get that grades suffer. It just doesn’t seem like a solid reason to move from reversible hormone blocker to irreversible surgery in younger trans kids.

Algebra can be fixed.

Your initial point, or Loren’s, I think, was that for minor children, it is highly unusual to use surgical or non-reversible therapies. Which seems appropriate and logical to most audiences, even those who do not understand trans needs.

But the follow up point, that this can be discarded if grades are suffering, does not strike me as a strong supporting argument. If a therapy is not recommended, then grades does not seem like a good reason to override that, in my personal opinion.

Self harm moves that needle, but not grades.
Doctors do not perform gender affirming surgeries on minors anymore than doctors perform "third trimester" abortions.
Yep. Rare, special circumstances, "if you had been there, you would understand." Even I would feel weird about doing surgery on a kid, but if a doctor did recommend it, I would be more inclined than otherwise to think there was good reason.
 

Playball40

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Reminds me of Terri Schiavo, and the lies about the husband and the judge. Accusations mean more than truth to the alt-right.

They have no idea much they have radicalized.
I knew Michael Schiavo and you are correct. It was awful. Also, lost in the whole Terri Schiavo saga is the fact that she ended up in that situation from a horrible and often fatal EATING DISORDER (bulimia). I always wished there was more focus on that fact.
 

Playball40

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FPWwGTXWYAUhSkz

FPWwHxkXsAowaeD


The existence of detransitioners is reason enough to avoid irreversible procedures on the young.
Nonsense.

And BTW, not only were we (parents) told of ALL potential side effects (some permanent, some not), but so was my SON.

I know people that regretted having an abortion. This is absolutely NOT A REASON to make it illegal for everyone else.

If there is ANY medical "procedure" that SHOULD be considered harmful and illegal, it's LAP BAND and other "Weight Loss" surgery. THAT really IS deadly.
 

Playball40

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Shot.


The Salt star, 35, admits she dresses Shiloh, 4, "like a little dude. Shiloh, we feel, has Montenegro style. It's how people dress there. She likes tracksuits, she likes [regular] suits. She likes to dress like a boy. She wants to be a boy. So we had to cut her hair. She likes to wear boys' everything. She thinks she's one of the brothers."

Chaser.

FP25N9MUYAM4ypg


She got lucky. If she had been born a few years later she'd have had mutilation surgery and been pumped with Mengele drugs.
OH bologne. There is nothing wrong with allowing young children to dress how they want. Sheesh. I wore overalls my entire childhood while my SON wore dresses. But I'm not TG and my son is. Go figure.
 

Jarhyn

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Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers, but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor. If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.

… that doesn’t seem like a terribly solid argument for it…
Transgender kids actually do tend to suffer in their grades if not treated early, though. This a serious problem because it can be harder for many of them to establish good careers later.

Self-harm is a big problem, but it is not the only problem that occurs in transgender kids. It was never a problem for me in spite of my other challenges and an abusive family environmemt on top of that.

The place where I suffered was in my grades. An entrenched cynicism and also the amplified need to escape, mentally, from an intolerable reality was a serious problem. Even in college, I ended up doing better in online courses than in person, and unfortunately, I only came to that late.


I get that grades suffer. It just doesn’t seem like a solid reason to move from reversible hormone blocker to irreversible surgery in younger trans kids.

Algebra can be fixed.

Your initial point, or Loren’s, I think, was that for minor children, it is highly unusual to use surgical or non-reversible therapies. Which seems appropriate and logical to most audiences, even those who do not understand trans needs.

But the follow up point, that this can be discarded if grades are suffering, does not strike me as a strong supporting argument. If a therapy is not recommended, then grades does not seem like a good reason to override that, in my personal opinion.

Self harm moves that needle, but not grades.
The issue is that the grades ARE a form of self-harm. Or a piece of the total of self-harm.

Having some thing that is slowly corrupting you from the inside out into something else, and people treating you trash because the self you are becoming is some thing outside of their understanding leads to significant harm, and not just as relates algebra.

Failing algebra is just a sign that "something major is happening, pay the fuck attention".

The result is that in some ways, folks so affected start to give up on certain things socially.

I generally wouldn't recommend anything to do with GRS or un/installing breasts to much of anyone who I didn't watch grow up through the verge of puberty expressing how much they hated their penis, and who only once at that age asks several disturbing questions about how cows are castrated and then changes the subject of you ever try to bring it up again, but not in a nervous way, but a calculating one.

The grades thing is more a herald of overall shutdown, a withdrawal, and a single symptom of a much larger pattern of self-harm.
 

SigmatheZeta

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Joined
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Messages
599
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she/her
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Generally, I am rooted in both ancient Epicurean and ancient Pyrrhonist sentiments, although I am somewhat sympathetic toward the intentions behind ancient Cynicism.
Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers, but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor. If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.

… that doesn’t seem like a terribly solid argument for it…
Transgender kids actually do tend to suffer in their grades if not treated early, though. This a serious problem because it can be harder for many of them to establish good careers later.

Self-harm is a big problem, but it is not the only problem that occurs in transgender kids. It was never a problem for me in spite of my other challenges and an abusive family environmemt on top of that.

The place where I suffered was in my grades. An entrenched cynicism and also the amplified need to escape, mentally, from an intolerable reality was a serious problem. Even in college, I ended up doing better in online courses than in person, and unfortunately, I only came to that late.


I get that grades suffer. It just doesn’t seem like a solid reason to move from reversible hormone blocker to irreversible surgery in younger trans kids.

Algebra can be fixed.

Your initial point, or Loren’s, I think, was that for minor children, it is highly unusual to use surgical or non-reversible therapies. Which seems appropriate and logical to most audiences, even those who do not understand trans needs.

But the follow up point, that this can be discarded if grades are suffering, does not strike me as a strong supporting argument. If a therapy is not recommended, then grades does not seem like a good reason to override that, in my personal opinion.

Self harm moves that needle, but not grades.
The issue is that the grades ARE a form of self-harm. Or a piece of the total of self-harm.

Having some thing that is slowly corrupting you from the inside out into something else, and people treating you trash because the self you are becoming is some thing outside of their understanding leads to significant harm, and not just as relates algebra.

Failing algebra is just a sign that "something major is happening, pay the fuck attention".

The result is that in some ways, folks so affected start to give up on certain things socially.

I generally wouldn't recommend anything to do with GRS or un/installing breasts to much of anyone who I didn't watch grow up through the verge of puberty expressing how much they hated their penis, and who only once at that age asks several disturbing questions about how cows are castrated and then changes the subject of you ever try to bring it up again, but not in a nervous way, but a calculating one.

The grades thing is more a herald of overall shutdown, a withdrawal, and a single symptom of a much larger pattern of self-harm.
In my case, I put my nose into a book, never talked to anybody, and made "leave me alone!" my single favorite expression. One time, bullying by other students drove me to such a paranoid break that I was literally having visual hallucinations.

I never hurt myself because my head was spacious and had places to hide. The walls muted my senses to where I barely noticed color. The shutdown really might have saved my life, but I resent the fact that I needed it.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers, but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor. If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.

… that doesn’t seem like a terribly solid argument for it…
Transgender kids actually do tend to suffer in their grades if not treated early, though. This a serious problem because it can be harder for many of them to establish good careers later.

Self-harm is a big problem, but it is not the only problem that occurs in transgender kids. It was never a problem for me in spite of my other challenges and an abusive family environmemt on top of that.

The place where I suffered was in my grades. An entrenched cynicism and also the amplified need to escape, mentally, from an intolerable reality was a serious problem. Even in college, I ended up doing better in online courses than in person, and unfortunately, I only came to that late.


I get that grades suffer. It just doesn’t seem like a solid reason to move from reversible hormone blocker to irreversible surgery in younger trans kids.

Algebra can be fixed.

Your initial point, or Loren’s, I think, was that for minor children, it is highly unusual to use surgical or non-reversible therapies. Which seems appropriate and logical to most audiences, even those who do not understand trans needs.

But the follow up point, that this can be discarded if grades are suffering, does not strike me as a strong supporting argument. If a therapy is not recommended, then grades does not seem like a good reason to override that, in my personal opinion.

Self harm moves that needle, but not grades.
The issue is that the grades ARE a form of self-harm. Or a piece of the total of self-harm.

Having some thing that is slowly corrupting you from the inside out into something else, and people treating you trash because the self you are becoming is some thing outside of their understanding leads to significant harm, and not just as relates algebra.

Failing algebra is just a sign that "something major is happening, pay the fuck attention".

The result is that in some ways, folks so affected start to give up on certain things socially.

I generally wouldn't recommend anything to do with GRS or un/installing breasts to much of anyone who I didn't watch grow up through the verge of puberty expressing how much they hated their penis, and who only once at that age asks several disturbing questions about how cows are castrated and then changes the subject of you ever try to bring it up again, but not in a nervous way, but a calculating one.

The grades thing is more a herald of overall shutdown, a withdrawal, and a single symptom of a much larger pattern of self-harm.
This is why we need experts involved in these situations that are intimately aware of the patient, family, environment. And a lot less lies from a bunch of people with absolutely no skin in the game.

I also find interest in the legalized and often unquestioned sexual mutilation of baby boys, among those who think the idea of gender transformation being obviously morally wrong.
 

Jarhyn

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Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers, but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor. If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.

… that doesn’t seem like a terribly solid argument for it…
Transgender kids actually do tend to suffer in their grades if not treated early, though. This a serious problem because it can be harder for many of them to establish good careers later.

Self-harm is a big problem, but it is not the only problem that occurs in transgender kids. It was never a problem for me in spite of my other challenges and an abusive family environmemt on top of that.

The place where I suffered was in my grades. An entrenched cynicism and also the amplified need to escape, mentally, from an intolerable reality was a serious problem. Even in college, I ended up doing better in online courses than in person, and unfortunately, I only came to that late.


I get that grades suffer. It just doesn’t seem like a solid reason to move from reversible hormone blocker to irreversible surgery in younger trans kids.

Algebra can be fixed.

Your initial point, or Loren’s, I think, was that for minor children, it is highly unusual to use surgical or non-reversible therapies. Which seems appropriate and logical to most audiences, even those who do not understand trans needs.

But the follow up point, that this can be discarded if grades are suffering, does not strike me as a strong supporting argument. If a therapy is not recommended, then grades does not seem like a good reason to override that, in my personal opinion.

Self harm moves that needle, but not grades.
The issue is that the grades ARE a form of self-harm. Or a piece of the total of self-harm.

Having some thing that is slowly corrupting you from the inside out into something else, and people treating you trash because the self you are becoming is some thing outside of their understanding leads to significant harm, and not just as relates algebra.

Failing algebra is just a sign that "something major is happening, pay the fuck attention".

The result is that in some ways, folks so affected start to give up on certain things socially.

I generally wouldn't recommend anything to do with GRS or un/installing breasts to much of anyone who I didn't watch grow up through the verge of puberty expressing how much they hated their penis, and who only once at that age asks several disturbing questions about how cows are castrated and then changes the subject of you ever try to bring it up again, but not in a nervous way, but a calculating one.

The grades thing is more a herald of overall shutdown, a withdrawal, and a single symptom of a much larger pattern of self-harm.
This is why we need experts involved in these situations that are intimately aware of the patient, family, environment. And a lot less lies from a bunch of people with absolutely no skin in the game.

I also find interest in the legalized and often unquestioned sexual mutilation of baby boys, among those who think the idea of gender transformation being obviously morally wrong.
Exactly right!

But they do have skin in the game, I expect, and the skin they have is the fact that they lost the game before we managed to change the rules so they could have won it.

It can be bitter having lost something because "rules" and then see the rules change. It's a fallacious thought form, to be sure, associated with perhaps the natural bitterness over the general unfairness of rule changes?

But I can also see why being leveraged down some path of personality and development and self might trigger both an acceptance of the natural evil, and a deep seated resentment against any threat to the model of justification used to reach that acceptance (that nobody gets to choose).

Accepting "I could have CHOSEN?!?" Would rip open the wound. Wounds only healed through deep existential unravelling and re-weaving are not easily or lightly opened, and humans have what may be a justifiable resistance to such, because function is severely degraded when such existential wounds and rework are recent or in progress.

Edit: contrast this to the other path that the acceptance can take: I could not choose for myself so I will see to it others do get choices denied me.
 

SigmatheZeta

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Joined
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Messages
599
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Basic Beliefs
Generally, I am rooted in both ancient Epicurean and ancient Pyrrhonist sentiments, although I am somewhat sympathetic toward the intentions behind ancient Cynicism.
Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers, but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor. If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.

… that doesn’t seem like a terribly solid argument for it…
Transgender kids actually do tend to suffer in their grades if not treated early, though. This a serious problem because it can be harder for many of them to establish good careers later.

Self-harm is a big problem, but it is not the only problem that occurs in transgender kids. It was never a problem for me in spite of my other challenges and an abusive family environmemt on top of that.

The place where I suffered was in my grades. An entrenched cynicism and also the amplified need to escape, mentally, from an intolerable reality was a serious problem. Even in college, I ended up doing better in online courses than in person, and unfortunately, I only came to that late.


I get that grades suffer. It just doesn’t seem like a solid reason to move from reversible hormone blocker to irreversible surgery in younger trans kids.

Algebra can be fixed.

Your initial point, or Loren’s, I think, was that for minor children, it is highly unusual to use surgical or non-reversible therapies. Which seems appropriate and logical to most audiences, even those who do not understand trans needs.

But the follow up point, that this can be discarded if grades are suffering, does not strike me as a strong supporting argument. If a therapy is not recommended, then grades does not seem like a good reason to override that, in my personal opinion.

Self harm moves that needle, but not grades.
The issue is that the grades ARE a form of self-harm. Or a piece of the total of self-harm.

Having some thing that is slowly corrupting you from the inside out into something else, and people treating you trash because the self you are becoming is some thing outside of their understanding leads to significant harm, and not just as relates algebra.

Failing algebra is just a sign that "something major is happening, pay the fuck attention".

The result is that in some ways, folks so affected start to give up on certain things socially.

I generally wouldn't recommend anything to do with GRS or un/installing breasts to much of anyone who I didn't watch grow up through the verge of puberty expressing how much they hated their penis, and who only once at that age asks several disturbing questions about how cows are castrated and then changes the subject of you ever try to bring it up again, but not in a nervous way, but a calculating one.

The grades thing is more a herald of overall shutdown, a withdrawal, and a single symptom of a much larger pattern of self-harm.
This is why we need experts involved in these situations that are intimately aware of the patient, family, environment. And a lot less lies from a bunch of people with absolutely no skin in the game.

I also find interest in the legalized and often unquestioned sexual mutilation of baby boys, among those who think the idea of gender transformation being obviously morally wrong.
Exactly right!

But they do have skin in the game, I expect, and the skin they have is the fact that they lost the game before we managed to change the rules so they could have won it.

It can be bitter having lost something because "rules" and then see the rules change. It's a fallacious thought form, to be sure, associated with perhaps the natural bitterness over the general unfairness of rule changes?

But I can also see why being leveraged down some path of personality and development and self might trigger both an acceptance of the natural evil, and a deep seated resentment against any threat to the model of justification used to reach that acceptance (that nobody gets to choose).

Accepting "I could have CHOSEN?!?" Would rip open the wound. Wounds only healed through deep existential unravelling and re-weaving are not easily or lightly opened, and humans have what may be a justifiable resistance to such, because function is severely degraded when such existential wounds and rework are recent or in progress.

Edit: contrast this to the other path that the acceptance can take: I could not choose for myself so I will see to it others do get choices denied me.
What happened to me made me a demented monster. Not only would I never wish that indignity upon others, but I would rather that person got help for the sake of world peace. I was lucky enough that my puberty did little to permanently masculinize me. I am a little tall, but some cis-women tell me they are a little jealous, which makes me feel better.
 

SigmatheZeta

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Generally, I am rooted in both ancient Epicurean and ancient Pyrrhonist sentiments, although I am somewhat sympathetic toward the intentions behind ancient Cynicism.

Here is another example of how the GOP really does not give a shit about anyone's liberty.

The government of Tennessee, which is currently "whatever lately crawled out of Donald Trump's Asshole," passed a law that would have forced businesses to post "warnings" if they had a policy allowing transgender people to use their bathrooms in accordance with their gender identity. This law would have imposed a demand on PRIVATE BUSINESSES, and it would have penalized them for just behaving respectfully toward some of their patrons.

The law was a reaction to a large, widespread fad, among hospitality services, of posting signs on their doors that designate their bathrooms as "all gender." It is becoming very common, especially at small family-owned restaurants and bars where the bathrooms are primarily single-occupancy. If you go into most major cities, you find this trend represented at the majority of trendy hangouts in the area.

Well, Tennessee's government was trying to interfere in how those people do business by forcing them to post "warnings," even though it is hard to NOT know that transgender people are there if the doors already have signs saying "all-gender restroom."

It's pure intimidation.

More intimidation:


The Texas GOP is now also trying to force teachers to expose their students to potential domestic violence.

As a transgender woman that grew up in the 1980's and 1990's (I have the wrinkles to prove it), I remember my school being a relatively safe environment, compared with the so-called home that I lived in. That is "safer" in the sense of "the only violence I had to worry about was that occasionally I tripped on some jerk's shoe-laces completely by accident, and he would either split my lip or slam my head against a cinder block wall hard enough to leave my ears ringing because transphobes only need a very dubious pretext to express their feelings through violence." That was my idea of a "safe place" when I was a kid.

You know what my environment at home was like? There were times that I literally had to physically defend myself from my own parents during their drunken rages, and the only saving grace was that they were so unbelievably drunk that they backed off after getting kicked violently in the head. If I had been outed as queer or transgender to those maniacs, I could have been in serious danger. They were not just evangelical Christians, but one of them had a family history of a type of alcoholism that was associated with violence. The other one had a brain tumor that had wrapped itself around part of his frontal lobe. If those lunatics had formed the perception that I was some kind of a monster or something, which is what they would have thought if they had gotten wind that I was transgender, then they might have literally killed me.

The same maniacs also declared me to be "demon-possessed" and reacted with extreme violence when they found out that I was uncertain about the authenticity of certain Old Testament stories and said that it might be more useful to interpret them allegorically.

So I am calling on the fucking so-called "libertarians" (bullshit) to tell me how much they need the GOP to defend their "freedom" to talk shit about transgender people, and I am going to watch them smile and nod like bobble-head clowns when the GOP are suppressing the freedom of speech of people that support transgender people. The only "freedom" some of the cretins that currently call themselves "libertarian" really care about is their freedom to make some people's lives so unbearable that they kill themselves. Watch how silent those cretins are when it's the friends and families of transgender people that are being silenced. Haven't you noticed how none of those cretins are here? None of those people that were so hot about their "freedom of speech" are speaking up, here, about the freedom of speech of people that do NOT hate transgender people.

THEY HAVE BEEN LYING TO YOU ABOUT THEIR PRINCIPLES. THEY DO NOT REALLY GIVE A SHIT ABOUT LIBERTY, AFTER ALL. THEY ARE JUST JERKS.
 

Gun Nut

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What is happening in Alabama is even worse. Holy shit.

[removed]
Would be great if we’d quit telling young people that there is something wrong with them that needs to be fixed.
A close friend of mine is very short... and married another very short person. They have a son that is far behind on his physical growth, and their pediatrician recommended growth hormones. The kid is like 7 years old. They have no idea if the kid is trans (does not seem so, so far, based on almost nothing at all). Would his treatment be illegal?
 

Loren Pechtel

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Here is another example of how the GOP really does not give a shit about anyone's liberty.

The government of Tennessee, which is currently "whatever lately crawled out of Donald Trump's Asshole," passed a law that would have forced businesses to post "warnings" if they had a policy allowing transgender people to use their bathrooms in accordance with their gender identity. This law would have imposed a demand on PRIVATE BUSINESSES, and it would have penalized them for just behaving respectfully toward some of their patrons.

The law was a reaction to a large, widespread fad, among hospitality services, of posting signs on their doors that designate their bathrooms as "all gender." It is becoming very common, especially at small family-owned restaurants and bars where the bathrooms are primarily single-occupancy. If you go into most major cities, you find this trend represented at the majority of trendy hangouts in the area.

Well, Tennessee's government was trying to interfere in how those people do business by forcing them to post "warnings," even though it is hard to NOT know that transgender people are there if the doors already have signs saying "all-gender restroom."

Warning: This bathroom doesn't kiss Bill Lee's ass.
 

SigmatheZeta

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Generally, I am rooted in both ancient Epicurean and ancient Pyrrhonist sentiments, although I am somewhat sympathetic toward the intentions behind ancient Cynicism.
And it is time to do some serious mythbusting. In reality, detransitioning almost never happens:


In the few instances that it does, more than half of them still do not identify as cis-gender, and to me, this is just more evidence in favor of embracing and accepting non-binary gender identities. I think that would do more than anything else to reduce the likelihood of young people taking rash action. The remainder are in no worse conditions than the other 94% of those kids would have been without the intervention, actually better because surgery on transgender kids is extremely unusual.
 

Jarhyn

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And it is time to do some serious mythbusting. In reality, detransitioning almost never happens:


In the few instances that it does, more than half of them still do not identify as cis-gender, and to me, this is just more evidence in favor of embracing and accepting non-binary gender identities. I think that would do more than anything else to reduce the likelihood of young people taking rash action. The remainder are in no worse conditions than the other 94% of those kids would have been without the intervention, actually better because surgery on transgender kids is extremely unusual.
YES! Honestly, for me, nonbinary means something very different for many. If people can accomplish their goals as pertains hormones without ascribing to common "masculine" and "feminine" archetypes, more power to them.
 

Rhea

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Sigma and Jarhyn, I think you misunderstood my comment and you definitely misunderstood my position on trans people.

Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers,

I agree with you on this. It is rare. And it’s rare for a reason. The normal therapeutic path is sufficient in most cases.
but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor.
And the rare cases have reasons. And I consider them to be generally valid. (Language meant to imply, “I don’t need to know the reasons, I trust them to be a description of something that indicates the normal therapeutic path won’t work but something needs to work for the good of the patient.”)

If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.
And that valid and serious reason is not algebra.

… that doesn’t seem like a terribly solid argument for it…
Transgender kids actually do tend to suffer in their grades if not treated early, though. This a serious problem because it can be harder for many of them to establish good careers later.

But this argument struck me as a flippant and even disrespectful argument for identifying a severe case of something wrong. There are better arguments. Passing algebra isn’t one. That was my point. It’s flip and inconsequential. It’s something that happens regularly and for myriad reasons. So to pull it out as a way to help people understand why the rare case of non-standard treatment is needed makes it a poor argument. A better argument, IMHO would be relationships, loss of interest in even hobbies, any of the many signs and symptoms of distress that are not common and manifest from minor and transitory anxieties.

The place where I suffered was in my grades. An entrenched cynicism and also the amplified need to escape, mentally, from an intolerable reality was a serious problem. Even in college, I ended up doing better in online courses than in person, and unfortunately, I only came to that late.
The bolded is a better argument.

@Rhea Many people here have the mistaken impression that the care given to transgender youth is one-size-fits all.
I am not mistaken in that. I already understand that. Failing algebra struck me as a poor support for arguing it.
Puberty-blockers are not always adequate, and I think it would be reckless and irresponsible to insist on visible self-injury as the only possible justification in moving beyond it. That is like sending a message to kids, "if you want to start HRT, you have to earn it by cutting yourself." That is monstrous, but that is the message you would send.
I did not intend to imply cutting was the only argument that seemed sound. There are other forms of self harm includng reclusive behavior and other forms of stress. My bad for using a loaded term. I did not intend that.


And maybe you do not remember being a kid very well. I do. Lagging grades are usually a sign of a stressed-out student.
I failed Algebra. I remember it quite well, thanks.
And of all the things going on, failing algebra was a poor argument for significant abnormal intervention.
It’s a good signal for getting help and intervention. But it does not strike me as the argument for the EXTREME intervention of a deviation from standard care.

You gave the example as a reason for a non-normal, radical departure from typical treatment.

Grades are a beginning, IMH (personally failing algebra as a highschooler) O, not an end.


Doctors do not perform gender affirming surgeries on minors anymore than doctors perform "third trimester" abortions.
Yep. Rare, special circumstances, "if you had been there, you would understand." Even I would feel weird about doing surgery on a kid, but if a doctor did recommend it, I would be more inclined than otherwise to think there was good reason.

I agree that it is clearly rare and that there are circumstances I can imagine, and likely many I can’t, that justify the decision as a best path for the patient.

I was simply observing that “so they can stop perseverating and pass algebra” does not strike me as a good way to convey the gravity of the situation.
 

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@Rhea

To be clear, it is the surgery that is rare to be done on youth.

HRT, if I understand correctly, is something that any transgender kid can get, but for them to get it, they have to go through years of therapy, consultation, and therapy visitations. I don't know the whole process, which is why I asked @Playball40 to try to describe it to you. To call it "rare" is a bit of a stretch. It is true that not all patients and their families have the intestinal fortitude to go through the whole process, but it is a process that, theoretically, anyone could get through if they wanted to do so, at least in respectable metro areas. I have no doubt that you can find benighted places, in the US, where transgender kids have few or no options. In a respectable metro area, though, the process is very involved, and there is extensive communication at all stages.

I still had to go see the doctor multiple times and get a tremendous amount of bloodwork done before I could start getting HRT as an adult. It was a tremendous amount of time spent in a doctor's office, and I am still being called in to see her every three months almost a year later. I would be shocked if a kid received less attention.

If a large proportion of transgender youth stay on puberty blockers until they are adults, then a large part of why is that it is normal for kids to be reluctant to close off their options. That is just being a normal kid, transgender or not. Therefore, puberty blockers do tend to be popular. It's not because they are restricted to only being allowed to take puberty blockers, though, but it's because getting more than just the puberty blockers before they are adults is just a higher commitment. That is just kids being kids, and transgender kids are still just kids.

As far as arguments, I still respectfully disagree with you in terms of the importance of grades. I consider sagging grades to be an important indicator of stress. I had struggles in school because I was under a tremendous amount of stress, and I was not a flunkie type of personality. I was always a dedicated intellectual from when I was 7 years old. The stress that I was under was a serious impairment in my ability to engage fully in what I was doing.
 
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Loren Pechtel

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And it is time to do some serious mythbusting. In reality, detransitioning almost never happens:


In the few instances that it does, more than half of them still do not identify as cis-gender, and to me, this is just more evidence in favor of embracing and accepting non-binary gender identities. I think that would do more than anything else to reduce the likelihood of young people taking rash action. The remainder are in no worse conditions than the other 94% of those kids would have been without the intervention, actually better because surgery on transgender kids is extremely unusual.
6% isn't "almost never" in my book.
 

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And it is time to do some serious mythbusting. In reality, detransitioning almost never happens:


In the few instances that it does, more than half of them still do not identify as cis-gender, and to me, this is just more evidence in favor of embracing and accepting non-binary gender identities. I think that would do more than anything else to reduce the likelihood of young people taking rash action. The remainder are in no worse conditions than the other 94% of those kids would have been without the intervention, actually better because surgery on transgender kids is extremely unusual.
6% isn't "almost never" in my book.
You are mistaken. It is 2.5%. Read more closely.

The remaining 3.5% actually identified as gender non-binary.
 

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As far as arguments, I still respectfully disagree with you in terms of the importance of grades. I consider sagging grades to be an important indicator of stress. I had struggles in school because I was under a tremendous amount of stress, and I was not a flunkie type of personality. I was always a dedicated intellectual from when I was 7 years old. The stress that I was under was a serious impairment in my ability to engage fully in what I was doing.

I was not a flunky type personality, either. I graduated top of my 8th grade class, bottom (well, 3rd to bottom) of my high school class, including an F in the afore-mentioned algebra, and then top again (#1 in my major) in my college class, after a 5 year haitus from school to manage the issues.

I’m not just speaking out of my ass.
 

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As far as arguments, I still respectfully disagree with you in terms of the importance of grades. I consider sagging grades to be an important indicator of stress. I had struggles in school because I was under a tremendous amount of stress, and I was not a flunkie type of personality. I was always a dedicated intellectual from when I was 7 years old. The stress that I was under was a serious impairment in my ability to engage fully in what I was doing.

I was not a flunky type personality, either. I graduated top of my 8th grade class, bottom (well, 3rd to bottom) of my high school class, including an F in the afore-mentioned algebra, and then top again (#1 in my major) in my college class, after a 5 year haitus from school to manage the issues.

I’m not just speaking out of my ass.
Besides being transgender, I personally was diagnosed with Tourettes. The schools that I went to had a history of violently abusing kids with disabilities. When I resisted physically when physically grabbed, they put me into a set of trailers behind my middle school with kids that had a history of violent behavior, some of whom had been in and out of prison, and the little education provided there was not intended for people that were believed to have higher academic aspirations in their future. I was also having a severe bad reaction to SSRI medication (retrospectively, I had symptoms of serotonin syndrome, including minor hallucinations, on a daily basis), and I was not able to think clearly until I stopped taking the drug at 14 over the loud objections of my parents (who saw it as a means of controlling me because it caused me to stare blankly off into space for hours due to the intense mental confusion caused by the drug, and they took this to be "docility" when I was really just trying to work my way through the ceaseless and fetid sauna clouds in my head), and then, in spite of ongoing struggles with mood regulation (a little present leftover from being kept on that drug during a sensitive part of my development) and my high degree of frustration and disenchantment with the system, I tried to repair some of the damage. Since I was living in a rural backwater where it is hard to get work unless you "know somebody," which I didn't and which my father had no intention whatsoever of helping me with (he wouldn't recommend me to any of his friends because he literally believed I was destined for a group home or a prison cell, which he told me outright and without pretense), it took me a couple of years after that before the violence in my parents' household drove me to take desperate and dangerous action to change my situation, which led to a period of intermittent homelessness and spending long time-periods on short commons, and I still could not get hired because I came across to hiring managers as damaged and probably dangerous (of which I was only the first). I eventually found out that it's easier to get odd jobs if you came across, at first meeting, as weird because someone is a lot more willing to make a small, non-binding investment in someone they feel sorry for, so being "crazy to the point of being kind of adorable" worked well for that. If you are looking for an employment contract and a wage, running around on all fours and claiming loudly to be a dragon is career suicide. If someone needs you to dig up a row of small trees with a three foot shovel and a mattock for 60 bucks and then you can prove that you can do it in six hours of sweaty labor, you can run around on all fours all you like. Three uprooted trees lying next to you is all the advertisement you need. I was called back often because I proved to be as strong as Babe, the Blue Ox and about as dependable (it turns out that reasonably high conscientiousness is one of my traits, after all), but then the recession hit, which led to more short commons and--due to serious malnutrition that had me emaciated (I was down to a 28 inch waist from my usual, almost unchanging 34) and suffering from serious, life-threatening infections--more academic struggles. I ended up with a regular employer, post-recession, that had a small farm, which he had inherited, that he needed someone to help him get into better repair. That paid for my room, board, and college education. I eventually did end up completing university when I was 31, but to my credit, I ended up with a marketable bachelor of science degree.

It's still not the same as being skipped ahead two grades. having a four-year degree before you're old enough to purchase alcohol, and getting hired straight out of college for a six-figure salary, but it makes an interesting story.

I believe it might have sounded flippant when I said, "so they can focus on their algebra," but I said that because I really fully understand how difficult it is to focus on achievement when one's achievement, every day, is still being willing to face the next day. I would have been glad if normal academic challenges had been my worst problem, when I was growing up. I have had people tell me, "You can't know how an alternate history would have been," but I do. I see that alternate history all the time in young people that do better than I did because they are treated better, and every one of them that does is a victory for me. That is my self-interest motive: every additional transgender kid--or kid with a weird disability--that does better than I did, as a consequence of parents, doctors, and educators being better informed about their needs, is like a rematch that I just keep winning. It's something on paper, which has meaning, that proves we are worth that small investment of understanding and toleration.

That is arguably a context that someone that does not know me could not possibly understand, and I would agree that the remark could come across sounding peculiar to somebody that did not understand that context about the person saying it.
 

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@Rhea That three years that I was taken out of the regular student population still bothers me, to this day. It was not just I being treated in this way, but that school ended up in multiple serious lawsuits for violent and strange abuse against kids with disabilities. The fact that I resisted was something that I was punished for by being denied the full benefit of an education, and as a kid that was highly interested in intellectual self-advancement, my rage over that never quite faded. I lost faith in the system, and the system deserved for me to lack faith in it.

My personal victory is that I emerged alive and eventually completed my education. The more collective victory is when educators that physically abuse kids are imprisoned rather than lauded and the child punished for objecting, neurologically diverse youth are treated like people, queer kids have dense networks of social support to draw on, transgender kids can find out at the start of puberty that there is nothing perverted or wrong about their feelings, and their parents are ready to help, regardless of religion or politics.

So in that context, does it make sense if I would say that I will be damn happy when the only thing a kid like I has to stress about is her grade in algebra? Actually, that was easy for me. I really struggled in ELP, which was just disorganized, nonsensical, and irrational.

I am prepared to acknowledge that it could be taken the wrong way without personal context, but with that personal context established, I think it is a respectable sentiment.
 

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Thanks for sharing SigmetheZeta. That was deep. I do have hope that society as a whole would learn to work as hard as we can together to get things right instead of pigeon-holing according to what caters to our beliefs. Sometimes doing what is right is doing what is uncomfortable.
 

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Speaking of "desistance", there are some things about being outside the normal binary that might also be clouding that measure. We are talking about minorities <3% here.

I know of the NB folks I have encountered, some sizable portion can only get what they want, the right mix of hormones and alterations upon their gonads, by doing something that would, statistically, look a lot like desistance: getting genital modification surgeries and going back on testosterone.

They didn't desist, though? So it would be interesting to see the question answered of what is being counted as a desistance.

I know of at least one man that got castrated and went back on testosterone because he wanted to be castrated, not because he was in any way trans.

I wouldn't call that cisgender, either though.
 

SigmatheZeta

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Speaking of "desistance", there are some things about being outside the normal binary that might also be clouding that measure. We are talking about minorities <3% here.

I know of the NB folks I have encountered, some sizable portion can only get what they want, the right mix of hormones and alterations upon their gonads, by doing something that would, statistically, look a lot like desistance: getting genital modification surgeries and going back on testosterone.

They didn't desist, though? So it would be interesting to see the question answered of what is being counted as a desistance.

I know of at least one man that got castrated and went back on testosterone because he wanted to be castrated, not because he was in any way trans.

I wouldn't call that cisgender, either though.
I am really not entirely sure about my level of enthusiasm to get myself gelded, personally. A part of me would only really be keen on it if it were possible to give me a functioning uterus from which I could bear offspring, and that were part of the deal. I otherwise would have to think about whether or not I really wanted "bottom surgery" at all. I am not necessarily against it, but it is not a settled "yes," either.

Then again, who knows what sort of Satanic demon-spawn I would produce? Perhaps the world is not ready.
 

Loren Pechtel

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And it is time to do some serious mythbusting. In reality, detransitioning almost never happens:


In the few instances that it does, more than half of them still do not identify as cis-gender, and to me, this is just more evidence in favor of embracing and accepting non-binary gender identities. I think that would do more than anything else to reduce the likelihood of young people taking rash action. The remainder are in no worse conditions than the other 94% of those kids would have been without the intervention, actually better because surgery on transgender kids is extremely unusual.
6% isn't "almost never" in my book.
You are mistaken. It is 2.5%. Read more closely.

The remaining 3.5% actually identified as gender non-binary.
"Non-binary" doesn't mean that anything irreversible was the right course of action. And 2.5% is still not "almost never" in my book. Puberty blockers and live as your preferred gender, fine. Surgery--only after living as the other gender for some time.
 

SigmatheZeta

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And it is time to do some serious mythbusting. In reality, detransitioning almost never happens:


In the few instances that it does, more than half of them still do not identify as cis-gender, and to me, this is just more evidence in favor of embracing and accepting non-binary gender identities. I think that would do more than anything else to reduce the likelihood of young people taking rash action. The remainder are in no worse conditions than the other 94% of those kids would have been without the intervention, actually better because surgery on transgender kids is extremely unusual.
6% isn't "almost never" in my book.
You are mistaken. It is 2.5%. Read more closely.

The remaining 3.5% actually identified as gender non-binary.
"Non-binary" doesn't mean that anything irreversible was the right course of action. And 2.5% is still not "almost never" in my book. Puberty blockers and live as your preferred gender, fine. Surgery--only after living as the other gender for some time.
Actually, the progression goes more like this for young people:

1) "Social affirmation" only at the start, which could mean a new name, new pronouns, clothes, or whatever other parts of life happen to go with being one gender or the other in a particular culture. And years of seeing therapists that keep track of the kid's welfare.

2) Puberty blockers at the normal start of puberty and more seeing therapists to make sure the kid is happy with this. Right now, I am a late-transitioning transgender adult, and I still have to see my doctor every three months, having started in June. That is for an ADULT. I would be surprised if a kid that was taking puberty blockers saw a doctor or therapist less often than that, and I would suspect more, probably monthly.

3) Slowly adding hormone-replacement therapy (HRT) drugs like, in the case of male-to-female transgender youth, estradiol, spironolactone, and progesterone. These are added slowly. More seeing therapists and doctors. Lots more. I hope you are insured. By the way, progesterone is really expensive shit.

As for why it might sometimes be necessary to move a kid beyond puberty blockers to slowly putting them on HRT, one example could be, in the case of a transgender boy, where he feels like his peers do not respect him or take him seriously because he still has a "squeaky child voice." I had a constitutional growth delay, which had a similar effect to being on puberty blockers, and while this might have saved my life in light of the fact that I was transgender on top of having other problems, I know all too well what it is like to look younger than my actual age while in school.

However, the decision to move on to full HRT drugs would be made with the extensive consultation of doctors and therapists. There are probably at least three professionals involved, though some doctors can do the work of two: the family doctor or pediatrician, the endocrinologist, and the therapist. There could be more, depending on your local healthcare system. Furthermore, teachers, school administrators, and other parents are generally aware of the kid's situation. There are many adults at once that are monitoring this situation at the same time.

Furthermore, the majority of parents of transgender kids really feel very uncomfortable with the entire matter. I think that I have proved to any reasonable person's satisfaction that transgender kids are probably born, not made, in other threads. Imagine any politically moderate family, probably with a moderately agnostic but not necessarily atheist dad and a kinda-sorta religiously observant mom that secretly just likes the social scene at the local church and at heart is probably more skeptical than the dad. Put them down as being as politically, ideologically, and religiously moderate as anybody that you can possibly imagine.

And then imagine those people's horror when it turns out that their kid has utterly rejected their birth sex. They do not come around easily on the subject. In fact, the only reason why they eventually do is that, after seeing multiple psychologists, doctors, and faith healers, they eventually settle on gender-affirming care as the only solution that is going to work. This is often only done AFTER alternative methods fail to bear fruit or result in self-injury behavior by the child.

It is a very hard situation for parents to be in, and the assumption that they arrive at the decision to start giving their child drugs lightly is deeply unfair to the families that actually have to do the job of raising these kids.

These decisions are made after years of therapy and consulting with multiple professionals. They are complex decisions, and they are not one-size-fits-all.

In reality, surgery on a kid is not on anybody's minds, in almost every case.
 

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Surgery--only after living as the other gender for some time.
hey Loren, what about for folks who are only discordant about the shape of their genitals, but not about their gender?

I get "adults only" but this law bans the procedure even of 19 year olds.

I know a number of men who have had a pseudovagina installed or who are preparing to?

I don't think that genital configurations or reassignments need to be or even ought be gated behind gender behaviors.

I shouldn't need to want to be "a woman" to want to not be affected by testosterone, either.

Should these people be forced to live as a gender they are not?

It is exactly this segment that I am arguing throws off "desistance" figures on account of the fact that for at least some significant portion of them look like desisters: folks who get GRS and medicate to their original hormone levels.

It's why I'm asking where these figures come from and how they were calculated.
 

Loren Pechtel

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And it is time to do some serious mythbusting. In reality, detransitioning almost never happens:


In the few instances that it does, more than half of them still do not identify as cis-gender, and to me, this is just more evidence in favor of embracing and accepting non-binary gender identities. I think that would do more than anything else to reduce the likelihood of young people taking rash action. The remainder are in no worse conditions than the other 94% of those kids would have been without the intervention, actually better because surgery on transgender kids is extremely unusual.
6% isn't "almost never" in my book.
You are mistaken. It is 2.5%. Read more closely.

The remaining 3.5% actually identified as gender non-binary.
"Non-binary" doesn't mean that anything irreversible was the right course of action. And 2.5% is still not "almost never" in my book. Puberty blockers and live as your preferred gender, fine. Surgery--only after living as the other gender for some time.
Actually, the progression goes more like this for young people:

1) "Social affirmation" only at the start, which could mean a new name, new pronouns, clothes, or whatever other parts of life happen to go with being one gender or the other in a particular culture. And years of seeing therapists that keep track of the kid's welfare.

2) Puberty blockers at the normal start of puberty and more seeing therapists to make sure the kid is happy with this. Right now, I am a late-transitioning transgender adult, and I still have to see my doctor every three months, having started in June. That is for an ADULT. I would be surprised if a kid that was taking puberty blockers saw a doctor or therapist less often than that, and I would suspect more, probably monthly.

Yeah, that's what I would favor.

3) Slowly adding hormone-replacement therapy (HRT) drugs like, in the case of male-to-female transgender youth, estradiol, spironolactone, and progesterone. These are added slowly. More seeing therapists and doctors. Lots more. I hope you are insured. By the way, progesterone is really expensive shit.
Huh? Expensive? Something different than what's commonly used for post-menopausal hormone replacement??
 

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Yes. It is actually unusual for doctors to prescribe anything stronger than puberty blockers, but in cases where they do, the differences is usually the patient and not the doctor. If a patient prescribes full HRT to a 14 year old, then the reality behind that is often a young transgender person that has been seriously raising hell and making noise in order to get it. If doctors prescribe full HRT to a minor, then it is usually because it is the only way the kid will stop perseverating on it long enough to learn their algebra.

… that doesn’t seem like a terribly solid argument for it…
Transgender kids actually do tend to suffer in their grades if not treated early, though. This a serious problem because it can be harder for many of them to establish good careers later.

Self-harm is a big problem, but it is not the only problem that occurs in transgender kids. It was never a problem for me in spite of my other challenges and an abusive family environmemt on top of that.

The place where I suffered was in my grades. An entrenched cynicism and also the amplified need to escape, mentally, from an intolerable reality was a serious problem. Even in college, I ended up doing better in online courses than in person, and unfortunately, I only came to that late.


I get that grades suffer. It just doesn’t seem like a solid reason to move from reversible hormone blocker to irreversible surgery in younger trans kids.

Algebra can be fixed.

Your initial point, or Loren’s, I think, was that for minor children, it is highly unusual to use surgical or non-reversible therapies. Which seems appropriate and logical to most audiences, even those who do not understand trans needs.

But the follow up point, that this can be discarded if grades are suffering, does not strike me as a strong supporting argument. If a therapy is not recommended, then grades does not seem like a good reason to override that, in my personal opinion.

Self harm moves that needle, but not grades.
Doctors do not perform gender affirming surgeries on minors anymore than doctors perform "third trimester" abortions.
That is false. Mastectomies have been performed, for gender-affirming reasons, in the United States on girls as young as 13.
 

SigmatheZeta

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And it is time to do some serious mythbusting. In reality, detransitioning almost never happens:


In the few instances that it does, more than half of them still do not identify as cis-gender, and to me, this is just more evidence in favor of embracing and accepting non-binary gender identities. I think that would do more than anything else to reduce the likelihood of young people taking rash action. The remainder are in no worse conditions than the other 94% of those kids would have been without the intervention, actually better because surgery on transgender kids is extremely unusual.
6% isn't "almost never" in my book.
You are mistaken. It is 2.5%. Read more closely.

The remaining 3.5% actually identified as gender non-binary.
"Non-binary" doesn't mean that anything irreversible was the right course of action. And 2.5% is still not "almost never" in my book. Puberty blockers and live as your preferred gender, fine. Surgery--only after living as the other gender for some time.
Actually, the progression goes more like this for young people:

1) "Social affirmation" only at the start, which could mean a new name, new pronouns, clothes, or whatever other parts of life happen to go with being one gender or the other in a particular culture. And years of seeing therapists that keep track of the kid's welfare.

2) Puberty blockers at the normal start of puberty and more seeing therapists to make sure the kid is happy with this. Right now, I am a late-transitioning transgender adult, and I still have to see my doctor every three months, having started in June. That is for an ADULT. I would be surprised if a kid that was taking puberty blockers saw a doctor or therapist less often than that, and I would suspect more, probably monthly.

Yeah, that's what I would favor.

3) Slowly adding hormone-replacement therapy (HRT) drugs like, in the case of male-to-female transgender youth, estradiol, spironolactone, and progesterone. These are added slowly. More seeing therapists and doctors. Lots more. I hope you are insured. By the way, progesterone is really expensive shit.
Huh? Expensive? Something different than what's commonly used for post-menopausal hormone replacement??
Estradiol and spironolactone are dirt cheap by comparison.
 

SigmatheZeta

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And the Texas government has resumed its terrorism against the families of transgender kids.


[Removed]

58,200 people would be affected by this shit if it stood, and the science clearly demonstrates that gender-affirming care is a necessary thing in those people's lives.


Each of those people is an individual whose life could be permanently damaged. They are human beings.
 
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SigmatheZeta

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Generally, I am rooted in both ancient Epicurean and ancient Pyrrhonist sentiments, although I am somewhat sympathetic toward the intentions behind ancient Cynicism.
The real financial setback is the bloodwork. I think that phlebotomists are secretly in an alliance with vampires, and they have been making a killing off of the blood of transgender people that are just trying to get some HRT drugs and be done with it. I had not realized that blood tests could be so damnably expensive.

Everyone, the case of Alabama's law, which would imprison doctors for providing standard, evidence-based medical care, is still a danger to care providers in that state. While a court order has stopped the law, for now, this nightmare is not over for the families of transgender kids in that state.


Notice that the transphobes on this site are oddly silent. If they had any moral spine at all, you would expect them to at least denounce this kind of tyranny.

I could also ask them to acknowledge that their own toxic, transphobic rhetoric probably contributed to this fiasco, but I don't have that much confidence in their virtue.

No contrition whatsoever from the local transphobes. I wonder if they really approve of this kind of tyranny. If they do, then there is not really anything else that we need to know about them. Nobody really has any use for someone that condones outright tyranny, even by their silence. Tyranny by cowardice is tyranny just the same.

I would be happy to hear some of them speak up. This is their chance to acknowledge, at minimum, that this kind of tyranny is over the line. They could go a long way toward redeeming themselves by that simple acknowledgement.
 
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Toni

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FPWwGTXWYAUhSkz

FPWwHxkXsAowaeD


The existence of detransitioners is reason enough to avoid irreversible procedures on the young.
Nonsense.

And BTW, not only were we (parents) told of ALL potential side effects (some permanent, some not), but so was my SON.

I know people that regretted having an abortion. This is absolutely NOT A REASON to make it illegal for everyone else.

If there is ANY medical "procedure" that SHOULD be considered harmful and illegal, it's LAP BAND and other "Weight Loss" surgery. THAT really IS deadly.
I'm questioning the confluence of PCOS and 'almost no female hormones.' That doesn't seem likely.
 

blastula

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Since all these bills have been appearing, I've been looking into this issue and I've found that the science is far from settled on gender medical care for kids. Several European national health agencies have even been rolling back some of their guidelines.

This is from Sweden. Updated recommendations for hormone therapy for gender dysphoria in young people - Socialstyrelsen.

The risks outweigh the benefits at present

Based on the results that have emerged, the National Board of Health and Welfare's overall conclusion is that the risks of anti-puberty and sex-confirming hormone treatment for those under 18 currently outweigh the possible benefits for the group as a whole.

- The assessment is that treatment with hormones should continue to be given within the framework of research. Increased knowledge is needed, among other things, about the treatments' impact on gender dysphoria and the mental health and quality of life of minors, in both the short and long term, says Thomas Lindén.

From all I've seen, the data is way to sketchy to say anything too firmly positive about it. And especially in light of all the tragic desister stories coming out, there's ample reason to be very cautious about its use.

Here's one desister who testified this week at an Ohio legislative hearing on their proposed ban.



In practice, gender clinics aren't so thorough and due diligent before prescribing hormones or surgery as you would hope. Too much appears to be fast tracking kids and young adults into getting medical treatments, making one suspect part of it may be about the gender industry wanting more lifelong customers.

Kids who have had personal traumas or other emotional difficulties are being sold gender transition as a cureall. Or kids who may be simply gender noncorforming or gay and not necessarily trans. People who have never even had sex are being convinced to permanently alter their sex organs and fertility. I'm not saying this is all the problem of doctors or adults, a lot of kids' ideas about it stem from talking with peers within certain niches of social media, especially on Tumblr.

I don't support these bans though, because there are some kids who may be best off getting those treatments, and that I'd rather the medical community get their act together themselves on this, rather than being forced one way. But I'm afraid US healthcare is behind on best practices. The Biden administration also has been on the wrong course on this.
 

Trausti

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This is Bill Maher, last night.


It’s just common sense. Young people go through phases. All of us probably did. Young people need to know that it’s normal to feel abnormal and weird. But you grow out of it. Don’t do something irreversibly stupid like cutting of your dick or getting a mastectomy before maturity.
 

Trausti

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Seems like the goal of the trans agenda is to erase gays and lesbians. If a young boy acts effeminate or a young girl like a tomboy, there’s no longer wait and see if really gay or lesbian. Or just effeminate and tomboy. Instead, lock in the “born in the wrong body” diagnosis as early as possible and make the change irreversible.
 

SigmatheZeta

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Generally, I am rooted in both ancient Epicurean and ancient Pyrrhonist sentiments, although I am somewhat sympathetic toward the intentions behind ancient Cynicism.
Half of transgender and nonbinary youth said they were not using GAHT but would like to, 36% were not interested in receiving GAHT, and 14% were receiving GAHT. Parent support for their child's gender identity had a strong relationship with receipt of GAHT, with nearly 80% of those who received GAHT reporting they had at least one parent who supported their gender identity. Use of GAHT was associated with lower odds of recent depression (adjusted odds ratio [aOR] = .73, p < .001) and seriously considering suicide (aOR = .74, p < .001) compared to those who wanted GAHT but did not receive it. For youth under age 18, GAHT was associated with lower odds of recent depression (aOR = .61, p < .01) and of a past-year suicide attempt (aOR = .62, p < .05).

Peer-reviewed research is on the side of the good guys.

If anyone here finds me to be mentally unhinged or prone to bursts of foul temper, there is a reason why. I know that the Bad Faith Squad will call this "making excuses," but I have learned contempt for the kinds of people that have chosen to ignore personal context in their judgment of others. I am an imperfect spokesperson, but it would also be impossible for me to be a real spokesperson without also being affected, psychologically, by such a background as I have had. A transgender adult that had the wonderful privilege of having supportive parents and early gender-affirming care is the kind of transgender adult that I want there to be more of in this world, but there is a part of the experience that they also can never understand. I am hopeful that a time will come with knowledge of it is almost exclusively to be found in old stories and psychiatric literature, and people with my kind of background so utterly extinct that our stories sound like some strange science fiction dystopian story.

I am a transgender woman that grew up in a rural conservative evangelical household. I was being taken on deer-hunts and fishing trips from very nearly my infancy because of a negligent mother and a father that was too selfish to put aside his hobbies but also not heartless enough to abandon me entirely. I was put on ATVs, which I must admit are fun, and I was pushed into attending Cub Scout meetings, which it is just as well I never really fit in with because of the stories I have heard about them. I was shoved into trying out for tee-ball but really found the entire affair to be boring. I really kind of liked the fishing, but in this, I had only taken after my paternal grandmother, who was very much a cis-woman that just loved the shore life.

As I approached puberty, the fact that I was queer began to slowly start to show, and partly as a consequence of this fact, my relationship with my father, who had hoped to raise a straight cis-boy, began to pale. This was ill-timed because I was also diagnosed with a mild neurological disorder and having very bad reactions to every medication that I was ever put on for it, and one of the consequences of being put on SSRI therapy, as a child that was susceptible to its cognitive side-effects, was that it utterly derailed my middle school education, resulting in permanent damage to my ability to advance in my education. If I had had a father in my life that had cared, he might have listened to me when I said, "These medications are not working," but I was greeted with cold heartlessness by a man that had decided that my problems were of my own making and who believed that I was behaving that way in spite of that medication rather than because of it. Eventually, both of my parents came to treat me as someone that was malevolent if not outright evil. They should have taken me off of that medication the moment that I said that it was not helping me and that it only made me feel sick and caused me headaches and a sense of being overheated all of the time and frustrated and just wrong, but the empathy between us had already started to fade. They failed.

The seed of that empathy gap that made it impossible for him understand the reality of what was going on, though, was that my father--whose grandmother really had literally taught him how to shoot and then made him skin and cook his first kill--had been given no preparation for how to raise a kid that was quite obviously turning out to be queer. He was a conservative evangelical, and by no fault of his own, there was no such thing as a queer kid in his world, merely a defective straight cis-gender kid. In spite of having, unlike my mother, the indigenous capacity for being an affectionate parent, his cultural background had merely left him utterly unprepared. A part of me still clings to what kind of man he might have been if he had been taught better because I would otherwise have to suffer from the shame of being related to a man that I could never respect.

It is unfair to men like my father to mislead them with false ideas about gender and sexuality. They are not born as terrible people. They are not born as abusers or as emotionally negligent parents. They are merely raised in ignorance, and in some cases, they have had a false reality drilled into their heads by misguided religious leaders and by politicians that use minority groups as a political scapegoat for their own selfish gain.

They might not understand peer-reviewed research, but they can respect authority. They can respect the authority of an organization like the American Academy of Pediatrics. They can respect the professional judgment of a family doctor or pediatrician. They generally see doctors as strong, hard-working individuals.

It is imperative to continue getting the word out that the lives of their kids could depend on seeking the opinion of a real medical authority rather than turning to wishful thinking or pseudoscience. People's lives could depend on this.

If anyone here finds that I have some very serious personality problems, then tough titmouse. I am what my genetics and my personal background made me into. I accept the fact that I am damaged, but I hope that you will, in turn, accept that that kind of damage is preventable. It is easily preventable.

Get people in your life to understand that trying to change the fact that one of their kids is transgender will never reward them with a healthy cis-gender adult child, but instead, it will reward them with an emotionally damaged transgender adult child that picks up the phone to give them a call, a few times a year, and just can't do it, even though that person might really wish to try to pursue reconciliation. It won't work, and it will never work to try to force a transgender kid to conform. It can only cause pain.

The same is true for trying to change any kid that is queer. It just does not work. It only causes grave psychological damage.

We can fix this.
 

SigmatheZeta

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Generally, I am rooted in both ancient Epicurean and ancient Pyrrhonist sentiments, although I am somewhat sympathetic toward the intentions behind ancient Cynicism.
Some 1950's nostalgia:



Remember, those that portray invisible and misunderstood groups as "predatory" are ALWAYS the real predators.
 

Jarhyn

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Some 1950's nostalgia:



Remember, those that portray invisible and misunderstood groups as "predatory" are ALWAYS the real predators.

I wouldn't say as much, myself. There are real predators and often they are the ones doing the "misunderstanding" of others as "predators", oftentimes the predators portrayed actually exist.

Pedophiles grooming children is definitely an issue.

I'll say as much that The predators involved in Reefer Madness, another propaganda piece do exist as well: drug dealers and junkies.

The issue here is that the people agitating against homosexuals and potheads are conflating them with other groups.

I will say there is predation happening here, namely against the homosexual, in painting then as pedophiles. Of course, this gives cover to actual pedophiles, since it misdirects attention from folks who may have wives and even children of their own towards lonely men that meet at that one bar and have hankies in their pockets.

It IS an apparent act of misdirection, though.
 

SigmatheZeta

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Generally, I am rooted in both ancient Epicurean and ancient Pyrrhonist sentiments, although I am somewhat sympathetic toward the intentions behind ancient Cynicism.
Some 1950's nostalgia:



Remember, those that portray invisible and misunderstood groups as "predatory" are ALWAYS the real predators.

I wouldn't say as much, myself. There are real predators and often they are the ones doing the "misunderstanding" of others as "predators", oftentimes the predators portrayed actually exist.

Pedophiles grooming children is definitely an issue.

I'll say as much that The predators involved in Reefer Madness, another propaganda piece do exist as well: drug dealers and junkies.

The issue here is that the people agitating against homosexuals and potheads are conflating them with other groups.

I will say there is predation happening here, namely against the homosexual, in painting then as pedophiles. Of course, this gives cover to actual pedophiles, since it misdirects attention from folks who may have wives and even children of their own towards lonely men that meet at that one bar and have hankies in their pockets.

It IS an apparent act of misdirection, though.

Social isolation is the primary thing that makes children vulnerable to sexual predators.

The only reason why I dodged it, when I was a kid, was that I was naturally skeptical, and I was naturally wary of mixing my escapist fantasy life (which is where my real personality lived) with my face-to-face life. Mixing would have taken away the sense of security that I had that the scary people IRL couldn't find me there, but weirdly, that need for "otherness" and "elsewhere" was naturally protective. My character did not live at my street address, but my character lived somewhere else entirely. I would not even tell people online which continent I lived on.

Still, social isolation WAS no less of a risk factor for me, and if not for those other protective factors, I would have been in serious danger. That is the number one risk factor for kids.

One of the factors that lead to kids being socially isolated is being severely misunderstood and made into a social pariah.
 

SigmatheZeta

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Generally, I am rooted in both ancient Epicurean and ancient Pyrrhonist sentiments, although I am somewhat sympathetic toward the intentions behind ancient Cynicism.
Since all these bills have been appearing, I've been looking into this issue and I've found that the science is far from settled on gender medical care for kids. Several European national health agencies have even been rolling back some of their guidelines.

This is from Sweden. Updated recommendations for hormone therapy for gender dysphoria in young people - Socialstyrelsen.

The risks outweigh the benefits at present

Based on the results that have emerged, the National Board of Health and Welfare's overall conclusion is that the risks of anti-puberty and sex-confirming hormone treatment for those under 18 currently outweigh the possible benefits for the group as a whole.

- The assessment is that treatment with hormones should continue to be given within the framework of research. Increased knowledge is needed, among other things, about the treatments' impact on gender dysphoria and the mental health and quality of life of minors, in both the short and long term, says Thomas Lindén.

From all I've seen, the data is way to sketchy to say anything too firmly positive about it. And especially in light of all the tragic desister stories coming out, there's ample reason to be very cautious about its use.

Here's one desister who testified this week at an Ohio legislative hearing on their proposed ban.
[redacted]

In practice, gender clinics aren't so thorough and due diligent before prescribing hormones or surgery as you would hope. Too much appears to be fast tracking kids and young adults into getting medical treatments, making one suspect part of it may be about the gender industry wanting more lifelong customers.

Kids who have had personal traumas or other emotional difficulties are being sold gender transition as a cureall. Or kids who may be simply gender noncorforming or gay and not necessarily trans. People who have never even had sex are being convinced to permanently alter their sex organs and fertility. I'm not saying this is all the problem of doctors or adults, a lot of kids' ideas about it stem from talking with peers within certain niches of social media, especially on Tumblr.

I don't support these bans though, because there are some kids who may be best off getting those treatments, and that I'd rather the medical community get their act together themselves on this, rather than being forced one way. But I'm afraid US healthcare is behind on best practices. The Biden administration also has been on the wrong course on this.
The science is actually pretty standardized, at this point. I say this as an actual transgender person that is actually receiving gender-affirming care as an adult. Even as an adult, I have to make a visit to the clinic every three months, and it was actually several times over several consecutive weeks when I first started. Only visiting every three months is light for how many times I had to see the doctor when I first started.

Kids are actually expected to see psychotherapists throughout the process, and it goes in stages over a course of years, starting with social transitioning where the kid just wears whatever clothing they choose to and ask to be called by their preferred pronouns, then puberty blockers, which are the most reversible form of hormone replacement therapy. Eventually, they are slowly started on the drugs that will be used to help them appear to be the sex they would choose to be, which is still to a large degree reversible.

About 94% of young people that go through the process stay as their target gender as adults, and additional 3.5% end up identifying as gender non-binary, which means identifying as neither male nor female or identifying as having aspects of both.


Here is what the science currently says about gender-affirming care:


Furthermore, gender-affirming care is supported by the American Academy of Pediatrics, which is one of the foremost pediatric institutions in America:


Our detractors have been falsely claiming that the science is uncertain when this is really an outright lie. They have actually been deliberately peddling lies, distortions, and material that was full of omissions in the name of their ideology. This is not something that is up for debate, but it is an established fact:


I am glad that, at minimum, you realize that it's wrong to treat these families and their doctors as criminals, and as far as that goes, we see eye-to-eye. However, I really need to firmly clarify that gender-affirming care for youth is actually supported, without question, by the most respected pediatric organizations in the country. The science is well-established, and it is widely accepted among actual doctors.

And by the way, Sweden is currently going through some serious political problems, regarding this subject. They actually legalized gender-affirming care for youth only in 2018, and there is currently a political backlash over it because it's something new. It is actually inappropriate to assume that Sweden is always going to be the world's most socially advanced country. They can go through a political crisis as well as any other country.


A political backlash is not really a valid measurement of where the science currently is. Unfortunately, transgender rights have moved slowly in some European countries, and in some, they only recently ended compulsory sterilization. The Netherlands is uniquely enlightened in regard to transgender rights, but one country is not the entire European continent.
 
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SigmatheZeta

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Generally, I am rooted in both ancient Epicurean and ancient Pyrrhonist sentiments, although I am somewhat sympathetic toward the intentions behind ancient Cynicism.
Based on the research that is current in much of the western world, forcing transgender kid to wait until the end of puberty to get the care they need constitutes homicide by legislation and state-sponsored terrorism. I condemn attempts to treat the families and the physicians of transgender kids in the strongest terms, and anyone that would condone treating people this way deserves our sharpest censure.
 
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