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Texas in Crisis

Deepak

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By that token I could conclude human brains are nonfunctional by pointing to the geniuses who decided to isolate Texas to its own grid.

The reality, of course, is that countries like Canada, Denmark, and Sweden all use wind power as well. Maybe we should be importing the commie wind generators

Actually, Texas was the first state to tie their power generation together in a grid. Over the years there were discussions to tie the grid in Texas to the other two major grids, but statistically, it never improved the reliability of the Texas grid. There were enough power plants in the state of Texas and enough interconnection capacity to keep the state powered through any foreseeable combination of the demand for power and the loss of power production.

Power system availability shares the same problem with other infrastructure, how much do we plan for increasingly rare combinations of power production and demand. Do we now plan for sub-zero temperatures in Texas at a considerable cost for a once in 100-year occurrence? What do we do? Insulate homes better to lower the demand for power at an added price for homes of 5 to 10%? Do we bury more electrical distribution or transmission lines at the added cost of 40 to 600% paid through our power bills?

Power generation has a further burden because we are trying to impose a profit motive onto what probably should be a government infrastructure supply. Profits are a counter-intuitive process to power system availability. About 60% of your power bill now goes to the gross margin of the power company; depreciation, interest, taxes, etc., and ~23% profits, not to pay for the generation and distribution of electrical power. Is it worth it in a non-competitive industry? I would like to see that argument if you believe that it is.

Without being a resident of the state, or having any ability to see the reports that indicated it wouldn't help I can't directly address this point.

Suffice it to say, though, that in a given 100 year period that multiple 100-year-events will occur. I don't think that having interconnects with other grids is as extreme a position as winterizing Texas homes, but with climate change causing extreme weather events more frequently, this is probably going to be real. I do agree that power generation should be public infrastructure. But even if they weren't, having interconnects would let Texas energy producers sell excess capacity for profit. The reasoning for Texas having an independent grid originally, and not having one now are not quite the same and I have no doubt in my mind that whatever assessment was done also had federal regulatory concerns in mind.

Ultimately what I'm going to do is continue to live where I live - where a regulatory infrastructure is in place for energy providers (and our schools would rank 4th in the world if disaggregated from the rest of the US, and where I don't have to die an excruciating death from lack of medical care because I lost my job).
 

Ahab

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By that token I could conclude human brains are nonfunctional by pointing to the geniuses who decided to isolate Texas to its own grid.

The reality, of course, is that countries like Canada, Denmark, and Sweden all use wind power as well. Maybe we should be importing the commie wind generators

Actually, Texas was the first state to tie their power generation together in a grid. Over the years there were discussions to tie the grid in Texas to the other two major grids, but statistically, it never improved the reliability of the Texas grid. There were enough power plants in the state of Texas and enough interconnection capacity to keep the state powered through any foreseeable combination of the demand for power and the loss of power production.

Power system availability shares the same problem with other infrastructure, how much do we plan for increasingly rare combinations of power production and demand. Do we now plan for sub-zero temperatures in Texas at a considerable cost for a once in 100-year occurrence? What do we do? Insulate homes better to lower the demand for power at an added price for homes of 5 to 10%? Do we bury more electrical distribution or transmission lines at the added cost of 40 to 600% paid through our power bills?

Power generation has a further burden because we are trying to impose a profit motive onto what probably should be a government infrastructure supply. Profits are a counter-intuitive process to power system availability. About 60% of your power bill now goes to the gross margin of the power company; depreciation, interest, taxes, etc., and ~23% profits, not to pay for the generation and distribution of electrical power. Is it worth it in a non-competitive industry? I would like to see that argument if you believe that it is.

Thanks for that info.
Then the Republicans in Texas should be pointing this out to explain why they did what they did in the past.
Instead they are using the disaster to blame their political opponents. That is BS pure and simple, and why they deserve criticism for trying to make this into a political issue.
 

T.G.G. Moogly

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Actually, Texas was the first state to tie their power generation together in a grid. Over the years there were discussions to tie the grid in Texas to the other two major grids, but statistically, it never improved the reliability of the Texas grid. There were enough power plants in the state of Texas and enough interconnection capacity to keep the state powered through any foreseeable combination of the demand for power and the loss of power production.

Power system availability shares the same problem with other infrastructure, how much do we plan for increasingly rare combinations of power production and demand. Do we now plan for sub-zero temperatures in Texas at a considerable cost for a once in 100-year occurrence? What do we do? Insulate homes better to lower the demand for power at an added price for homes of 5 to 10%? Do we bury more electrical distribution or transmission lines at the added cost of 40 to 600% paid through our power bills?

Power generation has a further burden because we are trying to impose a profit motive onto what probably should be a government infrastructure supply. Profits are a counter-intuitive process to power system availability. About 60% of your power bill now goes to the gross margin of the power company; depreciation, interest, taxes, etc., and ~23% profits, not to pay for the generation and distribution of electrical power. Is it worth it in a non-competitive industry? I would like to see that argument if you believe that it is.

Thanks for that info.
Then the Republicans in Texas should be pointing this out to explain why they did what they did in the past.
Instead they are using the disaster to blame their political opponents. That is BS pure and simple, and why they deserve criticism for trying to make this into a political issue.

They would normally blame it all on gay love but that's gone out of style.
 

TomC

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Actually, Texas was the first state to tie their power generation together in a grid. Over the years there were discussions to tie the grid in Texas to the other two major grids, but statistically, it never improved the reliability of the Texas grid. There were enough power plants in the state of Texas and enough interconnection capacity to keep the state powered through any foreseeable combination of the demand for power and the loss of power production.

Power system availability shares the same problem with other infrastructure, how much do we plan for increasingly rare combinations of power production and demand. Do we now plan for sub-zero temperatures in Texas at a considerable cost for a once in 100-year occurrence? What do we do? Insulate homes better to lower the demand for power at an added price for homes of 5 to 10%? Do we bury more electrical distribution or transmission lines at the added cost of 40 to 600% paid through our power bills?

Power generation has a further burden because we are trying to impose a profit motive onto what probably should be a government infrastructure supply. Profits are a counter-intuitive process to power system availability. About 60% of your power bill now goes to the gross margin of the power company; depreciation, interest, taxes, etc., and ~23% profits, not to pay for the generation and distribution of electrical power. Is it worth it in a non-competitive industry? I would like to see that argument if you believe that it is.

Thanks for that info.
Then the Republicans in Texas should be pointing this out to explain why they did what they did in the past.
Instead they are using the disaster to blame their political opponents. That is BS pure and simple, and why they deserve criticism for trying to make this into a political issue.

They would normally blame it all on gay love but that's gone out of style.

Ha ha ha!
I remember September 11, 2001.
When Jerry Falwell was on TV, explaining that the terrorist attacks were God's judgement on America because of gay people and abortion.
Apparently, God was more willing to work with Muslims than evangelical U.S. Christians.


What's with that?
Tom
 

ideologyhunter

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They would normally blame it all on gay love but that's gone out of style.

Old, old joke. A rancher and his little girl see a spider crawling on the barn floor.
Little girl: Pa, what is that?
Rancher: That's called a daddy-long-legs.
Little girl: What is it doing with the other spider?
Rancher: Honey, they're mating so they can have babies.
Little girl: Is that one a mommy-long-legs?
Rancher: No, honey, that's another daddy-long-legs.
Little girl: (stomps hard on the spiders) Not - in - Texas!!
 

SimpleDon

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Actually, Texas was the first state to tie their power generation together in a grid. Over the years there were discussions to tie the grid in Texas to the other two major grids, but statistically, it never improved the reliability of the Texas grid. There were enough power plants in the state of Texas and enough interconnection capacity to keep the state powered through any foreseeable combination of the demand for power and the loss of power production.

Power system availability shares the same problem with other infrastructure, how much do we plan for increasingly rare combinations of power production and demand. Do we now plan for sub-zero temperatures in Texas at a considerable cost for a once in 100-year occurrence? What do we do? Insulate homes better to lower the demand for power at an added price for homes of 5 to 10%? Do we bury more electrical distribution or transmission lines at the added cost of 40 to 600% paid through our power bills?

Power generation has a further burden because we are trying to impose a profit motive onto what probably should be a government infrastructure supply. Profits are a counter-intuitive process to power system availability. About 60% of your power bill now goes to the gross margin of the power company; depreciation, interest, taxes, etc., and ~23% profits, not to pay for the generation and distribution of electrical power. Is it worth it in a non-competitive industry? I would like to see that argument if you believe that it is.

Without being a resident of the state, or having any ability to see the reports that indicated it wouldn't help I can't directly address this point.

Suffice it to say, though, that in a given 100 year period that multiple 100-year-events will occur. I don't think that having interconnects with other grids is as extreme a position as winterizing Texas homes, but with climate change causing extreme weather events more frequently, this is probably going to be real. I do agree that power generation should be public infrastructure. But even if they weren't, having interconnects would let Texas energy producers sell excess capacity for profit. The reasoning for Texas having an independent grid originally, and not having one now are not quite the same and I have no doubt in my mind that whatever assessment was done also had federal regulatory concerns in mind.

Ultimately what I'm going to do is continue to live where I live - where a regulatory infrastructure is in place for energy providers (and our schools would rank 4th in the world if disaggregated from the rest of the US, and where I don't have to die an excruciating death from lack of medical care because I lost my job).

I haven't lived in Texas since 1972 when I earned my MSEE and reported to the Navy. So I am not a good source for their attitudes today. But it wouldn't surprise me if they were maintaining a separate gird to avoid federal regulation, but it would surprise me if that was sufficient to avoid federal regulations, they are providing power to US residents after all.

When I was a graduate student at the University of Texas in Arlington in electrical engineering I worked programming the various system components in the Texas power grid which had been previously done by hand-done calculations on paper, in something of an ad-hoc fashion over time by the different power companies in many different ways. The main problem was with relaying, when do you trip breakers to isolate problems like excessive demand or fault currents. I would be surprised if any of the programs I wrote are still being used. We programmed in Fortran II. I can think of two dozen better ways to do this today.
 

Politesse

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If you want to know how the South will respond to federal relief efforts in Texas, look no further than the historical example of how they responded to federal relief from Hurricane Katrina in Louisiana.

"Gratitude" will not be the dominant emotion, I assure you.
 

lpetrich

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BeNeDicT ArNoLd on Twitter: "@AOC @EdMarkey How would the green new deal’s increased push for wind and solar prevent this in the future? The graph below says you reject science and would make it worse. (pic link)" / Twitter

I don't see how the picture's chart supports that thesis, that wind and solar energy are dangerously unreliable in cold weather.

There was a bit of solar on 16 Feb, a bit more than in previous days, though wind energy contributed very little.

But there were big drops in natural gas, coal, and nuclear-energy generation. Natgas generation has a rather evident vulnerability, its pipelines, but that does not exist for coal and nuclear generation. So what affected them?

Coal is usually sent by train, and that is potentially vulnerable to track switches freezing. But full-scale railroading has often been done in great cold, like in Russia in the winter.

New railway in Siberia set to open linking Moscow with the coldest city in the world, Yakutsk | Daily Mail Online
Temperatures: -60 C / -76 F to +35 C / +95 F.

The Trans-Siberian Railroad: 9 Facts You Should Know - some parts get as cold as -62 C.

Also, coal is easy to store, unlike natgas.

Nuclear power? Nuclear Reactor Refueling - it's done every 1 to 2 years, and the reactor has to be shut down for replacing its old fuel with its new fuel.

That graph showed Texas's nuclear-reactor output as constant until it dropped some 20% on Feb 16. That's typical of nuclear reactors - run at constant output despite big fluctuations in electricity demand.
 

Keith&Co.

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. Natgas generation has a rather evident vulnerability, its pipelines, but that does not exist for coal and nuclear generation. So what affected them?
I just read that reactors in Texas are shutting down due to problems getting enough cooling water.
Burst pipes, etc.
 

lpetrich

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Andrew Lawrence on Twitter: "Texas Gov. Abbott blames solar and wind for the blackouts in his state and says "this shows how the Green New Deal would be a deadly deal for the United States of America" (link)" / Twitter
then
Julián Castro on Twitter: "Millions of Texans are sleeping in their winter coats, burning furniture, and exposing themselves to carbon monoxide by sleeping in their cars.

@GregAbbott_TX shouldn’t waste time blaming others for his failures on Fox News—he should be doing his job." / Twitter

and
Veronica Escobar on Twitter: "The elderly, children, and other vulnerable Texans are literally fighting for their lives amidst this monumental failure.

And instead of working to get help to his constituents and save lives, @GregAbbott_TX goes on TV to lie to the world." / Twitter



Pramila Jayapal on Twitter: "Republicans' lies about renewable energy are morally indefensible.

Millions still don't have power. Families are freezing. People are dying. This is what happens when we DON'T invest in clean energy, infrastructure, and our communities. (link)" / Twitter

noting
US conservatives falsely blame renewables for Texas storm outages | Texas | The Guardian - "Lawmakers and the Murdoch media target wind and solar but grid operator says fossil fuel generators suffered biggest problems"
“We should never build another wind turbine in Texas,” read a Facebook post on Tuesday by the state’s agriculture commissioner, Sid Miller. “The experiment failed big time.”

Fox News also joined in with one of its presenters, Tucker Carlson, claiming that renewables were to blame and that Texas was “totally reliant on windfarms”. The Wall Street Journal said in an editorial that “the power grid is becoming less reliable due to growing reliance on wind and solar, which can’t provide power 24 hours a day, seven days a week”.

While some wind turbines did freeze, failures in natural gas, coal and nuclear energy systems were responsible for nearly twice as many outages as renewables, the Electric Reliability Council of Texas (Ercot), which operates the state’s power grid, said in a press conference on Tuesday.

Frozen instruments at gas, coal and even nuclear power stations were among the main problems, Ercot director Dan Woodfin said, according to Bloomberg.
That's a weird kind of failure. Wouldn't those powerplants' waste heat be more than enough to keep their interiors warm? What's going on here?

Nuclear powerplants don't get refueled while they operate. Coal is easy to store on site. So what's going on here?
 

lpetrich

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Raw Story on Twitter: "Rick Perry calls on Texans to endure frigid temps without heat to ‘keep the feds out of their business’ (link)" / Twitter
noting
Rick Perry calls on Texans to endure frigid temps without heat to ‘keep the feds out of their business’ - Raw Story - Celebrating 16 Years of Independent Journalism
noting
Perry says Texans willing to suffer blackouts to keep feds out of power market
Former Texas governor Rick Perry suggests that going days without power is a sacrifice Texans should be willing to make if it means keeping federal regulators out of the state’s power grid.

In a blog posted on House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy's website, Perry is quoted responding to the claim that “those watching on the left may see the situation in Texas as an opportunity to expand their top-down, radical proposals.”

“Texans would be without electricity for longer than three days to keep the federal government out of their business,” Perry is quoted as saying. “Try not to let whatever the crisis of the day is take your eye off of having a resilient grid that keeps America safe personally, economically, and strategically.”

...
“If wind and solar is where we’re headed, the last 48 hours ought to give everybody a real pause and go wait a minute,” Perry said. “We need to have a baseload. And the only way you can get a baseload in this country is [with] natural gas, coal, and nuclear.”
noting
What's Up in Texas? - House Republican Leader

What an ideologue. What kind of "freedom" is it when Texas's grid fails while the two other main contiguous-US grids keep on going?
 

lpetrich

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Rep. Barbara Lee on Twitter: "What's happening in Texas is the result of energy policy that puts profits over people.

We need bold, transformative change. We need a Green New Deal." / Twitter



Matthew Yglesias on Twitter: "Why did Gregg Abbott and Rick Perry let the radical left make all energy policy decisions for their state, shutting down all oil & gas extraction and relying entirely on wind power?" / Twitter

Matthew Yglesias on Twitter: "Let me tell you, when Ann Richards was in charge they had some oil drilling happening in the state. Then the Republicans take over and it's suddenly 100 percent renewables! Weird shit." / Twitter

I think that he's being sarcastic.

Beto O'Rourke on Twitter: "You’re the governor of a state where millions don’t have power, where people are literally dying of exposure, and you go on Fox news to talk about... the Green New Deal? You are the governor. Your party has run Texas for 20 years. Accept responsibility & help us get out of this." / Twitter

Sunrise Movement 🌅 on Twitter: ""It doesn’t have to be this way.

We deserve a government that addresses our basic needs & protects all of us in moments of crisis. Despite the lies you’ll hear from @GovAbbott on Fox News, that’s truly what the Green New Deal is all about" -@parismoran_ (link)" / Twitter

noting
Sunrise Movement Leader Facing Climate Crisis in Texas, Calls for Governor Abbott’s Resignation and to Pass a Green New Deal - Sunrise Movement
Paris Moran (f):
On Sunday, my household lost power. Our food went bad. We don’t have a consistent water flow. My family and I are sustaining on one meal a day as food deserts worsen. And each moment without power, my heart breaks as my parents suffer not only from the storm, but because they can’t use the medical devices they rely on to ease them of pain. We are hungry, thirsty, cold, and hurting. And we are not alone in this.

...
In the wake of their failed leadership in times of crisis, we the people are filling the void to take care of each other. We are the ones supporting each other through the crisis while the government is on standby. We are the ones raising money for hotel stays, and cooking and distributing food to those in need. Now, we must start asking what our government can do for us. We cannot afford for this to happen again. As disaster after disaster strikes, bold action must be taken to not only prevent this destruction, but ensure communities like mine, especially communities of color who often face the brunt of the catastrophes, are equipped and empowered to handle them.
 

Deepak

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8NT6crO.jpg
 

barbos

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I don't understand all these videos with water gushing from the ceiling and utterly destroying house. Why not close the main valve?
 

Jarhyn

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I don't understand all these videos with water gushing from the ceiling and utterly destroying house. Why not close the main valve?

Lots of Texans probably don't know that's a thing... Or worse, don't have direct access to the shut-off owing to specifics of their living situation (duplex, apartment, etc.)

I know about shutting off water lines and burst pipe remediation only because that's a part of the rhythm of life in Minnesota. Texas, it's not, so much.
 

Rhea

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I don't understand all these videos with water gushing from the ceiling and utterly destroying house. Why not close the main valve?

A lot of people do not know where the main valve is. For some homes in Texas it may be outside, and frozen (or it may be inside, and frozen) where the outer diameter of the flow area is frozen but the inner diamter still passes water. Some may have turned off, but that’s how much water is left to drain.
 

Jarhyn

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I don't understand all these videos with water gushing from the ceiling and utterly destroying house. Why not close the main valve?

A lot of people do not know where the main valve is. For some homes in Texas it may be outside, and frozen (or it may be inside, and frozen) where the outer diameter of the flow area is frozen but the inner diamter still passes water. Some may have turned off, but that’s how much water is left to drain.

Yeah, it's in the OP: Texas wasn't built for this shit.

None of it was built for this. It's like an earthquake happening where earthquakes don't generally happen.

And Texas is shunning national efforts to help.

Anyone up in this thread talking about wind power trying to blame it needs to get their head screwed back on right this time.

At any rate, it's a cheap retrofit to put different turbines on pylons.

Fixing a nuclear power plant's burst pipes? That's gonna suck...

I guess this is what you get when you try to duck federal regulations to make a quick buck.
 

barbos

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I don't understand all these videos with water gushing from the ceiling and utterly destroying house. Why not close the main valve?

A lot of people do not know where the main valve is. For some homes in Texas it may be outside, and frozen (or it may be inside, and frozen) where the outer diameter of the flow area is frozen but the inner diamter still passes water. Some may have turned off, but that’s how much water is left to drain.
It can't be frozen. And they are not even trying.
And why were not they warned about it? I mean about need to close the main valve.
They knew that it was going to happen once heating failed.
 

Deepak

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The reality is that training and disaster recovery planning requires spending money. The free market decided these things were frills, and the investment in people was as highly valued as investment in infrastructure.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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I don't understand all these videos with water gushing from the ceiling and utterly destroying house. Why not close the main valve?

A lot of people do not know where the main valve is. For some homes in Texas it may be outside, and frozen (or it may be inside, and frozen) where the outer diameter of the flow area is frozen but the inner diamter still passes water. Some may have turned off, but that’s how much water is left to drain.
It can't be frozen. And they are not even trying.
And why were not they warned about it? I mean about need to close the main valve.
They knew that it was going to happen once heating failed.
The cold weather has sustained longer than it usually has in the South. Texas gets hit, but it usually isn't for a week, so it gets cold, but gets above freezing and things get better.

The natural gas failure is a new thing. Texas thought it was invincible, so some just don't know what to do.
 

barbos

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It can't be frozen. And they are not even trying.
And why were not they warned about it? I mean about need to close the main valve.
They knew that it was going to happen once heating failed.
The cold weather has sustained longer than it usually has in the South. Texas gets hit, but it usually isn't for a week, so it gets cold, but gets above freezing and things get better.

The natural gas failure is a new thing. Texas thought it was invincible, so some just don't know what to do.
Yeah, it takes time for shit to hit the fan. They had plenty of time at least to tell people to turn the fan off, shit is coming.
 

Keith&Co.

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I don't understand all these videos with water gushing from the ceiling and utterly destroying house. Why not close the main valve?

A lot of people do not know where the main valve is. For some homes in Texas it may be outside, and frozen (or it may be inside, and frozen) where the outer diameter of the flow area is frozen but the inner diamter still passes water. Some may have turned off, but that’s how much water is left to drain.
It can't be frozen.

Water pipes here in the northeast are buried four feet underground to protect from freezing. Water pipes in Texas are six inches down. It's all they needed for the last 200 years.

But now, the water in those pipes has frozen, including the water going thru the main valve.
Which they may have never needed to know about their entire lives.
As to warning, that assumes someone at the Texas power company thinks of burst water pipes after power failures.
Or at the water company.
Or at the TV station.

They have no practice at this, though. Nothing in their experience or in the municipal drills they hold, brought up thus as a possibility.
 

TV and credit cards

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I don't understand all these videos with water gushing from the ceiling and utterly destroying house. Why not close the main valve?

A lot of people do not know where the main valve is. For some homes in Texas it may be outside, and frozen (or it may be inside, and frozen) where the outer diameter of the flow area is frozen but the inner diamter still passes water. Some may have turned off, but that’s how much water is left to drain.
It can't be frozen. And they are not even trying.
And why were not they warned about it? I mean about need to close the main valve.
They knew that it was going to happen once heating failed.

For whatever reason builders in Texas (at least for a time) thought it was a good idea to locate the home’s water heater in the attic. So there is plumbing and a tank full of water sitting in an area of the home that is not climate controlled. So whether you shut the water off or not, there is 40-50 gallons of water just waiting to come pouring out. Generally these water heaters are in an attic area above the garage but letting loose fifty gallons of water all at once will flow along the ceiling until it finds convenient escapes: cutouts for light fixtures.
 

barbos

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It can't be frozen.
Water pipes in Texas are six inches down. It's all they needed for the last 200 years.
I find that hard to believe. Maybe near house, but not main pipes. You can easily damage it by driving over it or doing yard work.
Regardless, 6 inches is deep enough to not freeze in one week of slightly subzero temperature. And main pipes are plastic anyway.
It's clear that second floor copper piping froze up and burst in these videos. Main valve is fine. This is stupid. Whole houses collapse because they did not know that water supply should be cut off.
 

Keith&Co.

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It can't be frozen.
Water pipes in Texas are six inches down. It's all they needed for the last 200 years.
I find that hard to believe. Maybe near house, but not main pipes. You can easily damage it by driving over it or doing yard work.
Regardless, 6 inches is deep enough to not freeze in one week of slightly subzero temperature. And main pipes are plastic anyway.
It's clear that second floor copper piping froze up and burst in these videos. Main valve is fine. This is stupid. Whole houses collapse because they did not know that water supply should be cut off.

So many assumptions...
 

barbos

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For whatever reason builders in Texas (at least for a time) thought it was a good idea to locate the home’s water heater in the attic. So there is plumbing and a tank full of water sitting in an area of the home that is not climate controlled. So whether you shut the water off or not, there is 40-50 gallons of water just waiting to come pouring out. Generally these water heaters are in an attic area above the garage but letting loose fifty gallons of water all at once will flow along the ceiling until it finds convenient escapes: cutouts for light fixtures.
OK, that answers my question, kinda. I've lived in US north, and water heaters were on the first floor with easy outside access. I don't know what was it, heating oil/gas pipleline or simply tank. But it was definitely first floor and outside access. And water lines were couple of meters deep if not deeper and it was plastic.
 

barbos

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I find that hard to believe. Maybe near house, but not main pipes. You can easily damage it by driving over it or doing yard work.
Regardless, 6 inches is deep enough to not freeze in one week of slightly subzero temperature. And main pipes are plastic anyway.
It's clear that second floor copper piping froze up and burst in these videos. Main valve is fine. This is stupid. Whole houses collapse because they did not know that water supply should be cut off.

So many assumptions...
Which one? Here -30-40C happens but soil gets frozen maximum to 50cm. Of course, snow cover insulates it, but still, it takes time and really low temperature to get it to freeze.
 

Jarhyn

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I find that hard to believe. Maybe near house, but not main pipes. You can easily damage it by driving over it or doing yard work.
Regardless, 6 inches is deep enough to not freeze in one week of slightly subzero temperature. And main pipes are plastic anyway.
It's clear that second floor copper piping froze up and burst in these videos. Main valve is fine. This is stupid. Whole houses collapse because they did not know that water supply should be cut off.

So many assumptions...

I know, right? The fact is, people in texas get away with bloody murder when it comes to shunning regulations and best practices.

Barbos pretty much every stupid thing you can imagine will be happening, from mains to valves to pipes, it's all going to have many instances of being done wrong and exploding
 

Jarhyn

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Well, maybe this shit is not really common. Just few cases which got publicity.

The issue is that it IS common because it's been able to go on so long without clear issues. This is a million "did it wrong" time bombs all going off at the same time, built up over the course of over a century. Even if it were only every tenth house getting issues with burst second-story pipes, even if it were only every tenth neighborhood with a fucked main, even if it were only a tenth of cities, that means a whole tenth is triple fucked, a tenth of the ones who aren't triple fucked are still double-fucked, and a tenth of those not double-fucked are still just normal fucked.

The ones who aren't even fucked on water are still potentially fucked for either water or heat, in differing ways.

And it is widespread.

Every community is having to pay the price for this. And the "just a few" seems a lot like victim blaming or even just writing people off. The majority probably don't even know what corners had been cut for them before they ever had a chance to know.
 

Elixir

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uter.jpg

"Universal Texas Electric Reliability and Utility System"

Unfortunately I didn't think that up...
 

ZiprHead

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We just had a water main burst here. It was along a major six lane road in a high commerce area. Some poor guy hit the ice that formed almost immediately and lost control of his p/u truck and took out a utility pole holding up the intersection signals. So it does happen in places where they are prepared for it.

And I highly doubt water mains never break in Russia.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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It can't be frozen.
Water pipes in Texas are six inches down. It's all they needed for the last 200 years.
I find that hard to believe.
What you are willing to believe isn't all too relevant.
Maybe near house, but not main pipes. You can easily damage it by driving over it or doing yard work.
Regardless, 6 inches is deep enough to not freeze in one week of slightly subzero temperature.
Generally water pipes are prone to fail at its point of greatest weakness. It doesn't all need to freeze, just one part... like say where a valve is located.
And main pipes are plastic anyway.
You do realize that our infrastructure wasn't built in 2010, right? While new construction involves PVC, it hasn't always been PVC. Water lines in the US are made of all sorts of materials, including lead.

It's clear that second floor copper piping froze up and burst in these videos. Main valve is fine. This is stupid. Whole houses collapse because they did not know that water supply should be cut off.
It all depends on where the valves are located.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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We just had a water main burst here. It was along a major six lane road in a high commerce area. Some poor guy hit the ice that formed almost immediately and lost control of his p/u truck and took out a utility pole holding up the intersection signals. So it does happen in places where they are prepared for it.

And I highly doubt water mains never break in Russia.
We don't need freezing weather in US cities for water mains to burst. A lot of our water mains are on the verge of failure just from old age.
 

Deepak

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Well, maybe this shit is not really common. Just few cases which got publicity.

I’ve been there for business multiple times. Their construction standard is like Kowloon Walled City with stucco and they’re proud of it.
 

Swammerdami

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I see misinformation in the thread. Texas' failure to join its grid to those of other states was NOT about simplicity or efficiency. It was about avoiding federal regulation, and thereby keeping for-profit power companies donating to political coffers. Had they complied with federal regulations, their carbon-fuel power generators could have tolerated the cold. (And these generators form a large majority of the lost power, NOT wind or solar.)

Trevor Noah has a show on the Texas outage. Fast-forward to 8:00, just before he explains how AOC can provide a new source of power for the state.
[YOUTUBE]GWghjoC59_A[/YOUTUBE]
 

T.G.G. Moogly

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It can't be frozen.
Water pipes in Texas are six inches down. It's all they needed for the last 200 years.
I find that hard to believe. Maybe near house, but not main pipes. You can easily damage it by driving over it or doing yard work.
Regardless, 6 inches is deep enough to not freeze in one week of slightly subzero temperature. And main pipes are plastic anyway.
It's clear that second floor copper piping froze up and burst in these videos. Main valve is fine. This is stupid. Whole houses collapse because they did not know that water supply should be cut off.

I'm sure there are regulations dictating minimal depth. When I lived in Georgia the common wisdom was deep enough so that a horse's hoof wouldn't make contact.

We just had a water main burst here. It was along a major six lane road in a high commerce area. Some poor guy hit the ice that formed almost immediately and lost control of his p/u truck and took out a utility pole holding up the intersection signals. So it does happen in places where they are prepared for it.

And I highly doubt water mains never break in Russia.

Same thing happens here both with extreme cold and with extreme heat.
 

Jarhyn

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I see misinformation in the thread. Texas' failure to join its grid to those of other states was NOT about simplicity or efficiency. It was about avoiding federal regulation, and thereby keeping for-profit power companies donating to political coffers. Had they complied with federal regulations, their carbon-fuel power generators could have tolerated the cold. (And these generators form a large majority of the lost power, NOT wind or solar.)

Trevor Noah has a show on the Texas outage. Fast-forward to 8:00, just before he explains how AOC can provide a new source of power for the state.
[YOUTUBE]GWghjoC59_A[/YOUTUBE]

These are facts. I would also, parallel to the fact that wind is not the villain here, point out that the wind infrastructure itself, regardless of whether these turbines have been fucked by the cold, is not itself fucked.

The turbines can be easily replaced on the pylons for very little cost. The primary cost was in putting up the pylons themselves.

Not so much the rest of the problems with Texas electrical infrastructure. Not only are the wind turbines the smallest part of the failure, they are the fastest part to fix: just drop new Canadian or Minnesotan turbines on the poles.

The far harder piece will be getting the eroded coal and natgas and other "infrastructure heavy" providers back online.
 

Elixir

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I see misinformation in the thread. Texas' failure to join its grid to those of other states was NOT about simplicity or efficiency. It was about avoiding federal regulation, and thereby keeping for-profit power companies donating to political coffers. Had they complied with federal regulations, their carbon-fuel power generators could have tolerated the cold. (And these generators form a large majority of the lost power, NOT wind or solar.)

Trevor Noah has a show on the Texas outage. Fast-forward to 8:00, just before he explains how AOC can provide a new source of power for the state.
[YOUTUBE]GWghjoC59_A[/YOUTUBE]

These are facts. I would also, parallel to the fact that wind is not the villain here, point out that the wind infrastructure itself, regardless of whether these turbines have been fucked by the cold, is not itself fucked.

The turbines can be easily replaced on the pylons for very little cost. The primary cost was in putting up the pylons themselves.

Not so much the rest of the problems with Texas electrical infrastructure. Not only are the wind turbines the smallest part of the failure, they are the fastest part to fix: just drop new Canadian or Minnesotan turbines on the poles.

The far harder piece will be getting the eroded coal and natgas and other "infrastructure heavy" providers back online.

Yabut the nice thing is that the worst effects will come down hard on the very people whose votes are easiest to suppress, so who gives a flying fuck?
 

Jarhyn

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I see misinformation in the thread. Texas' failure to join its grid to those of other states was NOT about simplicity or efficiency. It was about avoiding federal regulation, and thereby keeping for-profit power companies donating to political coffers. Had they complied with federal regulations, their carbon-fuel power generators could have tolerated the cold. (And these generators form a large majority of the lost power, NOT wind or solar.)

Trevor Noah has a show on the Texas outage. Fast-forward to 8:00, just before he explains how AOC can provide a new source of power for the state.
[YOUTUBE]GWghjoC59_A[/YOUTUBE]

These are facts. I would also, parallel to the fact that wind is not the villain here, point out that the wind infrastructure itself, regardless of whether these turbines have been fucked by the cold, is not itself fucked.

The turbines can be easily replaced on the pylons for very little cost. The primary cost was in putting up the pylons themselves.

Not so much the rest of the problems with Texas electrical infrastructure. Not only are the wind turbines the smallest part of the failure, they are the fastest part to fix: just drop new Canadian or Minnesotan turbines on the poles.

The far harder piece will be getting the eroded coal and natgas and other "infrastructure heavy" providers back online.

Yabut the nice thing is that the worst effects will come down hard on the very people whose votes are easiest to suppress, so who gives a flying fuck?

I give a flying fuck. Most certainly. But Ted Cruz [Fled on a Cruise] does not care.

Beto O'rourke seems to care too.
 

crazyfingers

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I had read that the Texas power capacity, being deregulated, is very much based on using cost to keep supply and demand in check. When demand goes up the costs go up very quickly in order to decrease demand. That means that there is very little excess capacity to handle demand spikes created either by extreme heat or extreme cold. The power producers make most of their money when demand spikes and the prices paid by consumers spikes, so there is little to no incentive to have a power capacity buffer as the buffer would just decrease profits.

On top of that no economic incentive to make the system more hardened against extreme weather as we see here. Everything done on the cheap to maximize profits. Wind is just one example of things done on the cheap. Alaska depends a great deal on wind for it's electrical needs but you don't see the wind turbines freezing up in Alaska because they
have been made to withstand extreme cold.

Just another example of the failure of the free market to meeting the needs of the society.
 

Swammerdami

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Trevor Noah has a show on the Texas outage. Fast-forward to 8:00, just before he explains how AOC can provide a new source of power for the state.

Come on, somebody! Watch the last minute of the YouTube and give Trevor a laughing-face emoticon.
 
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