The British-American coup that ended Australian independence

[barbos]

Talked with one Australian lately. Started with bitching about their current Prime the Embarrasment Minister Tony Abbott and then about other Prime ministers and the eventually came to this:
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...itlam-1975-coup-ended-australian-independence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Australian_constitutional_crisis

CIA would never do coups, right?

 

[tupac chopra]

Talked with one Australian lately. Started with bitching about their current Prime the Embarrasment Minister Tony Abbott and then about other Prime ministers and the eventually came to this:
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...itlam-1975-coup-ended-australian-independence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Australian_constitutional_crisis

CIA would never do coups, right?

Even the Prime Minister who replaced Gough Whitlam , Malcolm Fraser is callling for Australia to end it's alliance with the United States.
(Australia was basically a two party democracy with Whitlam from the progressive party and Fraser from the conservative one)

Hated by progressives for his role in Gough Whitlam's dismissal and his ultra-conservative foreign policies when Liberal PM, Malcolm Fraser today believes Australia should cut all military ties to the US.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/people/malcolm-fraser-an-unlikely-radical-20140425-36ze8.html

 

[crispy]

Talked with one Australian lately. Started with bitching about their current Prime the Embarrasment Minister Tony Abbott and then about other Prime ministers and the eventually came to this:
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...itlam-1975-coup-ended-australian-independence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Australian_constitutional_crisis

CIA would never do coups, right?

Of course they do, but your making this post to draw parallel to Ukraine today, to defend russias not-so-subtle attempt at couping east ukraine with military power right?

 

[barbos]

Talked with one Australian lately. Started with bitching about their current Prime the Embarrasment Minister Tony Abbott and then about other Prime ministers and the eventually came to this:
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...itlam-1975-coup-ended-australian-independence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Australian_constitutional_crisis



CIA would never do coups, right?

Of course they do, but your making this post to draw parallel to Ukraine today, to defend russias not-so-subtle attempt at couping east ukraine with military power right?

No, I draw parallel to US's subtle attempt to overthrow Yanukovich.

 

[barbos]

Another link

http://johnpilger.com/articles/the-forgotten-coup-and-how-the-godfather-rules-from-canberra-to-kiev

 

[tupac chopra]

Talked with one Australian lately. Started with bitching about their current Prime the Embarrasment Minister Tony Abbott and then about other Prime ministers and the eventually came to this:
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...itlam-1975-coup-ended-australian-independence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Australian_constitutional_crisis

CIA would never do coups, right?

Of course they do, but your making this post to draw parallel to Ukraine today, to defend russias not-so-subtle attempt at couping east ukraine with military power right?

Russia had the opportunity. Those in the East wanted to join Russia. Russia said no.

If you bother to read up you'll see Putin favours autonomous republics or something similar. Ukraine is a basket case Russia doesn't need a basket case, it just doesn't want Nato bases it areas on their doorstep in areas that have traditionally been theirs or that they have had long close ties to

 

[bilby]

Well Putin should have thought of that back in November 1975, before he let John Kerr put Malcom Fraser in charge in Kiev then.

Or something.

Sorry, what (if anything) was this thread about again?

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Oh this thread is not about the Aussies.

 

[barbos]

Oh this thread is not about the Aussies.

Idea was to have a thread about CIA overthrowing even allies governments.
I had not heard about this particular coup before and thought it would be interesting to hear what people think.
But it seems that when there is even slightest connection to Russia then CIA automatically became good guys or at least not worthy of any criticism. I find this phenomena extremely curious.

 

[bilby]

There is absolutely no evidence of any US connection to the Whitlam dismissal. Kerr was and is perfectly suited to be the representative of Her Majesty the Queen, and his actions make sense in the context of his support for Britain over an increasingly independent Australia; but the idea that he could be influenced by the CIA to act for American interests is laughable. As a staunch monarchist, he doubtless views the USA as a perfect example of why it is imperative for Australia to remain a British Dominion.

Australia has been gradually moving away from Britain since federation in 1901. WWII showed Australia that the US is more able than Britain to provide us with military assistance if needed, and in the light of that, a move to support the Americans in Vietnam seemed prudent at the time; but this was very unpopular with the Australian people, and contributed to Whitlam's electoral success. He didn't get the numbers in the Senate, which allowed the Liberals to block supply - something they didn't need or want CIA help to achieve.

There seems little reason to think that the British security services needed to get involved to get the result they probably wanted; and every reason to think that the US had no involvement whatsoever.

There are plenty of historical examples of CIA activities that undermined governments, but anyone suggesting that the Whitlam dismissal is one such instance is drawing a very long bow indeed.

 

[barbos]

There is absolutely no evidence of any US connection to the Whitlam dismissal. Kerr was and is perfectly suited to be the representative of Her Majesty the Queen, and his actions make sense in the context of his support for Britain over an increasingly independent Australia; but the idea that he could be influenced by the CIA to act for American interests is laughable. As a staunch monarchist, he doubtless views the USA as a perfect example of why it is imperative for Australia to remain a British Dominion.

Australian I spoke to disagrees with that, and majority of Australians too.
Kerr had to leave Australia after that crisis.

 

[bigfield]

There is absolutely no evidence of any US connection to the Whitlam dismissal. Kerr was and is perfectly suited to be the representative of Her Majesty the Queen, and his actions make sense in the context of his support for Britain over an increasingly independent Australia; but the idea that he could be influenced by the CIA to act for American interests is laughable. As a staunch monarchist, he doubtless views the USA as a perfect example of why it is imperative for Australia to remain a British Dominion.

Australian I spoke to disagrees with that, and majority of Australians too.
Kerr had to leave Australia after that crisis.

Most Australians neither know who John Kerr is nor know the circumstances of the Whitlam Government's dismissal.

The dismissal was harmful to Australia's relationship with the US.

 

[bilby]

There is absolutely no evidence of any US connection to the Whitlam dismissal. Kerr was and is perfectly suited to be the representative of Her Majesty the Queen, and his actions make sense in the context of his support for Britain over an increasingly independent Australia; but the idea that he could be influenced by the CIA to act for American interests is laughable. As a staunch monarchist, he doubtless views the USA as a perfect example of why it is imperative for Australia to remain a British Dominion.

Australian I spoke to disagrees with that, and majority of Australians too.
Kerr had to leave Australia after that crisis.

He chose to leave, because he was widely unpopular; but as he died in Sydney in 1991, clearly he felt able to return by the start of the 1990s.

I don't know which other Australians you have been talking to, but the only ones I know of, who consider CIA involvement in the Whitlam dismissal to be even a possibility, are wild-eyed conspiracy theorists.

Our stop-start gradual movement away from UK domination continues; Nobody is surprised that it is slow, although some are disappointed at how slow it is, and some (like our current PM) are convinced that it has gone far enough (or even too far).

 

[barbos]

I don't know which other Australians you have been talking to, but the only ones I know of, who consider CIA involvement in the Whitlam dismissal to be even a possibility, are wild-eyed conspiracy theorists.

Well, then wikipedia article must have been written by some wild-eyed conspiracy theorist.

 

[bilby]

I don't know which other Australians you have been talking to, but the only ones I know of, who consider CIA involvement in the Whitlam dismissal to be even a possibility, are wild-eyed conspiracy theorists.

Well, then wikipedia article must have been written by some wild-eyed conspiracy theorist.

That is quite possible. Who else has the time and the inclination to write wikipedia articles?

ETA There is no mention of the CIA at all on the page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gough_Whitlam; On the page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1975_Australian_constitutional_crisis, the only mention of the CIA is in this final paragraph, right at the end of the article, under the heading 'Legacy':

During the crisis, Whitlam had alleged that Country Party Leader Anthony had close links to the US Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). Subsequently, it was alleged that Kerr acted on behalf of the United States government in procuring Whitlam's dismissal. The most common allegation is that the CIA influenced Kerr's decision to dismiss Whitlam. In 1966 Kerr had joined the Association for Cultural Freedom, a conservative group that was later revealed to have received CIA funding. Christopher Boyce, who was convicted for spying for the Soviet Union while an employee for a CIA contractor, claimed that the CIA wanted Whitlam removed from office because he threatened to close US military bases in Australia, including Pine Gap. Boyce said that Kerr was described by the CIA as "our man Kerr". Whitlam later wrote that Kerr did not need any encouragement from the CIA. However, he also said that in 1977 United States Deputy Secretary of State Warren Christopher made a special trip to Sydney to meet with him and told him, on behalf of US President Jimmy Carter, of his willingness to work with whatever government Australians elected, and that the US would never again interfere with Australia's democratic processes.

(my bold)

This is hardly a clear and unequivocal statement of CIA involvement; It looks like a series of unfounded allegations and vague suggestions that there might have been some US pressure. Typical conspiracist nonsense; As Whitlam himself said, Kerr did not need any encouragement from the CIA. Boyce can hardly be considered a reliable source; spies are not known for being paragons of trustworthiness, and spies who have been caught spying against the CIA are hardly unbiased sources regarding CIA activity.

 

[barbos]

"Did no need" != "Did not get"
The fact is, US administration was worried with the direction of Australia was moving.
And do you honestly believe that CIA was no involved? really?

 

[bilby]

"Did no need" != "Did not get"
The fact is, US administration was worried with the direction of Australia was moving.
And do you honestly believe that CIA was no involved? really?

Yes.

It would be a little surprising if they had not kept a close eye on what was happening; But it would be stupid for them to have taken any action, and there is no evidence whatsoever that they did; so on the balance of probabilities, I would say that they didn't.

Australia remains closely linked to the UK; and rather less closely linked to the US. And we continue to become gradually less dependent on either. Even the wildly incompetent Tony Abbott is not a US puppet; The idea that any of the other PMs we have had since Whitlam might be is frankly laughable. You would have a better chance persuading me that Harold Holt or Kevin Rudd were Chinese puppets (hint - neither man was, despite Kevin speaking Mandarin, and Harold Holt having been rumoured to have been picked up by a Chinese submarine when he disappeared).

 

[tupac chopra]

"Did no need" != "Did not get"
The fact is, US administration was worried with the direction of Australia was moving.
And do you honestly believe that CIA was no involved? really?

Yes.

It would be a little surprising if they had not kept a close eye on what was happening; But it would be stupid for them to have taken any action, .

CIA often do stupid things. Or as you former countryman (is that the correct way to say it..hmmm) Alan Moore said (after wrting a graphic novel on the murky history of the CIA). "If you name is on a CIA hitlist, then you have nothing to worry about, but if you have a name like someone ona CIA hitlsit , then you are dead."

 

[barbos]

"Did no need" != "Did not get"
The fact is, US administration was worried with the direction of Australia was moving.
And do you honestly believe that CIA was no involved? really?

Yes.

It would be a little surprising if they had not kept a close eye on what was happening; But it would be stupid for them to have taken any action, and there is no evidence whatsoever that they did; so on the balance of probabilities, I would say that they didn't.

Australia remains closely linked to the UK; and rather less closely linked to the US. And we continue to become gradually less dependent on either. Even the wildly incompetent Tony Abbott is not a US puppet; The idea that any of the other PMs we have had since Whitlam might be is frankly laughable. You would have a better chance persuading me that Harold Holt or Kevin Rudd were Chinese puppets (hint - neither man was, despite Kevin speaking Mandarin, and Harold Holt having been rumoured to have been picked up by a Chinese submarine when he disappeared).

Well, my impression is that Whitlam was thinking about shutting down that US listening post. Instead US shut him down. It had less to do with UK.
And stupid? was Iran coup stupid? Or Iraq war? I think it was, so something being stupid is not an argument against US/CIA doing it.

 

[barbos]

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