The Fall - The Just So stories begin

[Jimmy Higgins]

So anyway, the story of The Fall is partially to explain why snakes nip at our heels, why farming is a pain in the butt, and why farm animals don't bitch while giving birth compared to women.

So, understanding that The Fall is a myth, what exactly is the "intelligent design" explanation for the absurdity that is child birth?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

It works well enough. The birthing process is easy for four-legged creatures, but once we became bipeds, the bone structure was less than optimal for it, but not so less than optimal that it killed us off and the random mutations over the millennia haven't randomly happened to include anything that would help there.

Also, it's a logical error to assume that just because God is fake that therefore women aren't evil and deserving of pain and suffering.

 

[Keith&Co.]

So, understanding that The Fall is a myth, what exactly is the "intelligent design" explanation for the absurdity that is child birth?

rhutchin would not offer an explanation, but would insinuate that it seems to be fairly popular and no one has ever refused to be born.

 

[Underseer]

Oxnard the Plaid (praise be unto Him) made human childbirth painful as retribution for taking his last slice of pizza.

 

[dockeen]

I think it's related to why the creator decided kidney stones should also be painful.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

This is the question I always ask Christians and I never get a response. Why the fall?

Assume an omni-max deity. Not a popular assumption around here, but this conversation takes place with a Christian and they assume an omni-max deity.

(Aside - omni-max means "omnipotent, omniscient, omnitemporal, omni-whatever")

So this perfect omni-max deity would create the universe. It would, of course, do a perfect job. That means that everything was created so that it had a place and function that was ideal for it.

Then why would anything created deviate from that role? A cat likes to chase mice, a cat doesn't like to swim in the ocean, and you don't need to tell the cat "don't swim in the ocean, you'll drown, go chase mice instead."

Usually when confronted with this problem re Adam and Eve, the Christian will drop back ten and punt by saying "well the devil..." but that makes the problem worse. The Devil, supposedly the greatest of the angels and the one closest do God, would be even more so properly in place and wanting to do good.

"But free will..."

No. I am able to choose to drink Draino. I choose not to because I know the consequences if I do so. For the Devil to rebel is somewhat akin to me choosing to drink Draino.

"Oh, but if he doesn't want to rebel that means he doesn't have free will..."

Ok, Christian, if you don't drink Draino it proves you aren't able to choose to do so. Go prove to me you have free will.

I always picture the situation with the Devil going something like this.

Sataniel (his pre-fall name) is in heaven, miserable, crying his eyes out. Michael comes up and says "what's wrong, friend Sataniel?" "Oh, God gave me free will, so now I have to rebel even though I don't want to." "But if you don't want to doesn't that mean that you won't do it?" "Oh no, human apologists said if I don't do it, even though I don't want to, it proves that God didn't give me free will. I have to do it to prove I can do it even though I don't want to." "I'm confused, friend Sataniel." "So am I friend Michael. Oh well, even though I don't want to I guess I better get going on the rebellion."

 

[DBT]

So, understanding that The Fall is a myth, what exactly is the "intelligent design" explanation for the absurdity that is child birth?

Wasn't painful childbirth supposed to be a deliberate curse placed on Eve for her transgression with the forbidden fruit?

 

[jonJ]

This is the question I always ask Christians and I never get a response. Why the fall?

Assume an omni-max deity. Not a popular assumption around here, but this conversation takes place with a Christian and they assume an omni-max deity.

(Aside - omni-max means "omnipotent, omniscient, omnitemporal, omni-whatever")

So this perfect omni-max deity would create the universe. It would, of course, do a perfect job. That means that everything was created so that it had a place and function that was ideal for it.

At which point someone in the eager Cro-Magnon audience, gathered around the speaker with wide eyes and rapt attention, says: "And what happened then?"

Perfect beginnings don't make for compelling stories.

 

[The Paul]

This is the question I always ask Christians and I never get a response. Why the fall?

Assume an omni-max deity. Not a popular assumption around here, but this conversation takes place with a Christian and they assume an omni-max deity.

(Aside - omni-max means "omnipotent, omniscient, omnitemporal, omni-whatever")

So this perfect omni-max deity would create the universe. It would, of course, do a perfect job. That means that everything was created so that it had a place and function that was ideal for it.

At which point someone in the eager Cro-Magnon audience, gathered around the speaker with wide eyes and rapt attention, says: "And what happened then?"

Perfect beginnings don't make for compelling stories.

...and I suppose that's why the story doesn't have a perfect beginning. Genesis makes it pretty clear that God isn't omni-max. The idea that he is came along later.

And that's why you'll never get a straight answer on this shit. Many Christians fervently believe that the Bible is the perfect word of God and that their god is a perfect omni-max entity. So when you start getting into the details of the god described in the Bible (who is definitely not the god the Christian wants to believe in) shit gets weird.

 

[credoconsolans]

So anyway, the story of The Fall is partially to explain why snakes nip at our heels, why farming is a pain in the butt, and why farm animals don't bitch while giving birth compared to women.

So, understanding that The Fall is a myth, what exactly is the "intelligent design" explanation for the absurdity that is child birth?

You obviously haven't heard goats giving birth. They make quite a ruckus.

 

[Malintent]

So anyway, the story of The Fall is partially to explain why snakes nip at our heels, why farming is a pain in the butt, and why farm animals don't bitch while giving birth compared to women.

So, understanding that The Fall is a myth, what exactly is the "intelligent design" explanation for the absurdity that is child birth?

I think you miss the point of the fall... the whole point is to create an excuse for all the "bad design" that we can trivially detect all around us. It wasn;t called 'intellegent design' when the story was written... it was called "god must be pissed".

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So anyway, the story of The Fall is partially to explain why snakes nip at our heels, why farming is a pain in the butt, and why farm animals don't bitch while giving birth compared to women.

So, understanding that The Fall is a myth, what exactly is the "intelligent design" explanation for the absurdity that is child birth?

I think you miss the point of the fall... the whole point is to create an excuse for all the "bad design" that we can trivially detect all around us. It wasn;t called 'intellegent design' when the story was written... it was called "god must be pissed".

But don't typically only YEC's believe in the literal truth of the historicalness of The Fall. Aren't ID'ers in a more sane-ish camp of understanding the world is older than 10,000 years? If they don't believe The Fall is historical, the consequences of it then poof into the air.

 

[Malintent]

I think you miss the point of the fall... the whole point is to create an excuse for all the "bad design" that we can trivially detect all around us. It wasn;t called 'intellegent design' when the story was written... it was called "god must be pissed".

But don't typically only YEC's believe in the literal truth of the historicalness of The Fall. Aren't ID'ers in a more sane-ish camp of understanding the world is older than 10,000 years? If they don't believe The Fall is historical, the consequences of it then poof into the air.

In my experience it has been a mixed batch.. but those conflicting worldviews that people sometimes have remain compartmentalized so as not to conciously conflict. Those "ID'ers" that accept an old earth still may accept "the fall" concept, as it helps them rationalize the intent of their intelligent designer (or at least puts the "blame" of bad design on humans, not a malicious intelligent designer). Or, you have ID'ers that do not accept the Fall as literal and are happy enough to say the intelligent designer is a bastard... or is simply "mysterious" (as there is a REASON for what we mear humans think might be a bad thing - god did it, so it is good)

 

[dockeen]

I think you miss the point of the fall... the whole point is to create an excuse for all the "bad design" that we can trivially detect all around us. It wasn;t called 'intellegent design' when the story was written... it was called "god must be pissed".

But don't typically only YEC's believe in the literal truth of the historicalness of The Fall. Aren't ID'ers in a more sane-ish camp of understanding the world is older than 10,000 years? If they don't believe The Fall is historical, the consequences of it then poof into the air.

With the people I have known, there is kind of a pendulum swing, where they go between the literal truth of the fall being something they would rather not have to deal with, but then they get stuck with the idea that the fall is the basis for the savior's mission.

 

[funinspace]

I think you miss the point of the fall... the whole point is to create an excuse for all the "bad design" that we can trivially detect all around us. It wasn;t called 'intellegent design' when the story was written... it was called "god must be pissed".

But don't typically only YEC's believe in the literal truth of the historicalness of The Fall. Aren't ID'ers in a more sane-ish camp of understanding the world is older than 10,000 years? If they don't believe The Fall is historical, the consequences of it then poof into the air.

I'd say most conservative/evangelical Christians think that "The Fall" is historical/real. They don't necessarily believe in a young earth. Many I think believe in an old earth/universe (like in reality), but then slip humans into the mix at some magical moment that works conveniently with their dogma whether that moment is 6,000, 10k, 30k, 100k years, or a "hell if I know". Most of them really don't want to, or aren't interested in sweating the details. The YECers are an even smaller minority.

 

[dockeen]

Note that it seems to me that more xtians these days postulate that "the fall" was a necessary ingredient for god to get the final result he wanted. It gets them around the problem of how a temporally omniscient being would create something, knowing in advance it would almost immediately go off the rails.

It enables a better blend of the tri-omni god that many/most xtians believe in into a story in which the god figure doesn't appear to be omni-anything.

 

[rhutchin]

So, understanding that The Fall is a myth, what exactly is the "intelligent design" explanation for the absurdity that is child birth?

rhutchin would not offer an explanation, but would insinuate that it seems to be fairly popular and no one has ever refused to be born.

Childbirth is a good example of a sophisticated process that was designed.

 

[rhutchin]

Ok, Christian, if you don't drink Draino it proves you aren't able to choose to do so. Go prove to me you have free will.

That people can choose to do something only tells us that people have a will.

I don't think anyone has ever shown the will to be free - certainly not in the libertarian sense.

Adam, in the garden, was able to eat of any tree he desired with the one exception. So, a person is free so long as his that which he wants is available for the choosing - a limited form of freedom.

 

[rhutchin]

This is the question I always ask Christians and I never get a response. Why the fall?

God made the garden, put Adam and Eve into the garden and then said that Satan should go in and get them to sin. So, it was all God's plan.

 

[Keith&Co.]

rhutchin would not offer an explanation, but would insinuate that it seems to be fairly popular and no one has ever refused to be born.

Childbirth is a good example of a sophisticated process that was designed.

Called it. No explanation. Just assertion. As always.

- - - Updated - - -

This is the question I always ask Christians and I never get a response. Why the fall?

God made the garden, put Adam and Eve into the garden and then said that Satan should go in and get them to sin. So, it was all God's plan.

Well, that is a response. But doesn't answer the question, WHY?