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The government doing things is not socialism

PyramidHead

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There's a spectre haunting our political discourse, and it's the idea that anytime a government produces something or provides a service, it's an example of socialism. The more the government does or provides, the more socialist the country is. This misunderstanding of socialism is understandable in some sense, but it still ought to be corrected.

In the last century, every attempt at implementing society-wide socialism has followed the same basic model as the Soviet Union. After the revolution, Lenin envisioned a path to socialism that would pass through a phase that he called state capitalism.

Vladimir Lenin said:
In order to convince the reader that this is not the first time I have given this ‘high’ appreciation of state capitalism and that I gave it before the Bolsheviks seized power I take the liberty of quoting the following passage from my pamphlet The Impending Catastrophe and How to Combat It, written in September 1917.

". . . Try to substitute for the Junker-capitalist state, for the landowner-capitalist state, a revolutionary-democratic state, i.e., a state which in a revolutionary way abolishes all privileges and does not fear to introduce the fullest democracy in a revolutionary way. You will find that, given a really revolutionary-democratic state, state-monopoly capitalism inevitably and unavoidably implies a step, and more than one step, towards socialism!"

". . . For socialism is merely the next step forward from state-capitalist monopoly."

". . . State-monopoly capitalism is a complete material preparation for socialism, the threshold of socialism, a rung on the ladder of history between which and the rung called socialism there are no intermediate rungs’ (pages 27 and 28)."

So, the architect of this economic system was well aware that it was not socialism, not yet, but believed it to be a necessary stepping-stone from here to there. What did state capitalism under Lenin do? It changed the pre-revolutionary system in two major ways: it changed from private ownership to state ownership (in large industry, not in agriculture or small business, which was still the largest part of the Russian economy) and changed from market dominance to planning. There were still markets, but they played a much less prominent role than before.

(By the way, farms were privately owned for the first time in Russian history! This was a concession to get the mass of people behind the revolution itself--by convincing them that it had granted them their own land, free from the encroachment of a feudal lord. It remained this way for decades, until Stalin also began nationalizing agriculture.)

So, why did state capitalism take this form? Why did Lenin and the Bolsheviks (who were by no means the majority of Marxists in the world and had bitter rivalries with those on the left, who were anti-state) believe that this was how to achieve socialism in Russia? The answer is simple: they saw the state as an ally of bourgeois capitalism that needed to be overtaken, harnessed by the proletariat. A system where the state runs everything wasn't the goal of the revolution, nor the goal of socialism, it was just what everybody saw as the most direct way of gaining power where they had none before.

It was a very macro-level way of thinking. The reasoning went, if workers seize the state apparatus and install right-minded officials in positions of power, then instead of serving the interests of the ruling class, the state will serve the interests of the working class. In other words, the Russian revolution pretty much left all the structural elements of the previous economy intact--positions of authority, the relationship between workers and their product, and the dynamic between wages and expenses--they simply changed the personnel. Instead of private owners running the factories and taking charge of the means of production, party bureaucrats did. Workers still showed up at the factory, worked their shifts, and went home, leaving the fruits of their labor back at the factory to be taken by someone else. On farms, peasants worked their privately owned plots of land, producing food for themselves and their families for part of the time and selling the surplus to industrial workers in the cities.

Is it any wonder socialism never emerged in these conditions?

The class relationship between workers and non-workers was the central theme of Marx's analysis of capitalism. He endlessly examined the dimensions of worker struggle for e.g. a shorter workday and how relinquishing every bit of their productive output to non-workers the instant they produced it would lead to alienation and social unrest among workers. Yet, Lenin and his followers ignored this element almost completely, and focused all of their efforts on this idea of a party vanguard, an elite, incorruptible political body that perfectly mirrored the interests of workers. Between 1917 and 1989, the society that resulted from these policies achieved extraordinary advances in an absurdly short amount of time, amidst multiple wars and beset on all sides by rivals, until it finally collapsed.

Its history is an important lesson, but the lesson is not that socialism has been tried and has failed. Primarily, it's a lesson for socialists, an acknowledgement that changing the macro-level organization of a society by modifying its power structure will not yield durable improvements WITHOUT also altering the class relationships at the heart of the workplace. In the wake of the USSR, so far every fledgling experiment in socialism has followed the same path of nationalization and planning, with little attention paid to the position of workers relative to their productive output, which is arguably the major (some would say entire) substance of socialism.

---

So no, the post office is not socialism, roads and bridges are not socialism, police and military are not socialism. Those are just state services, and in a society like the United States, they primarily exist to preserve the interests of capitalism. If a politician tries to say we can have socialism if the right people are in charge of the state, they are making the same mistake as the Bolsheviks did. At best, we can have something akin to social democracy, of the type often alluded to in Scandinavian countries, Portugal, and so on, but these are not permanent solutions to the problems socialism is trying to address; indeed, much of the social democratic reforms that were instituted in these places are being reversed as we speak. These are not "mixed economies" just because the state is leveraged as an agent of economic influence. You can certainly arrange nations along a spectrum based on how much power the government has over commodity production and exchange, but you will not be describing a spectrum between capitalism and socialism as long as there is no accompanying spectrum of how much democratic control workers have over the wealth they produce for society.
 
The government doing things in service to the people IS socialism. It is looking after society as a whole.

Capitalism is looking after what the individual owns. It is being consumed with how much one owns.

There is no part of capitalism that includes collecting taxes and using the money for public programs.

Capitalism is trying to find the most helpless population to pay the lowest labor price and the most corrupt government to pollute the environment as much as desired in any manner desired.

That the US government built the roads so capitalists could prosper is because the US government is run by big business.

Capitalism is also anti-democratic.
 
The government doing things in service to the people IS socialism. It is looking after society as a whole.

Capitalism is looking after what the individual owns. It is being consumed with how much one owns.

There is no part of capitalism that includes collecting taxes and using the money for public programs.
You are describing tendencies, but not really definitions. Capitalism very much does include taxes and public programs as a way of making it work; quite simply, no form of capitalism could function without either one. If anyone tells you otherwise and tries to insist on a "pure" capitalism at the level of simple exchanges through voluntary transactions, they are playing a confidence game with you, trying to distract you with bullshit about free markets (which can exist with or without capitalism) while leveraging every advantage they can for the ruling class, including state power.

When the state provides services that help people, you can't automatically assume that it's doing so primarily for their sake. Much of what states do is catered toward keeping people willing and able to serve as labor for capital. They'll help you when you're down, but only until you can rent yourself out to a capitalist again every week until you retire. They'll give you a free primary school education, but you're not going to learn anything that would make you seriously question the organization of production in society. Infrastructure is a nice convenience, but if it wasn't primarily used to get you to work and back, it wouldn't be as much of a state priority.

Capitalism is trying to find the most helpless population to pay the lowest labor price and the most corrupt government to pollute the environment as much as desired in any manner desired.

That the US government built the roads so capitalists could prosper is because the US government is run by big business.

Capitalism is also anti-democratic.
This I can agree with. But I take it at face value: capitalism is a system that relies on the state. I don't take state services at face value and call them "socialism" for that very reason.
 
Dear Lorenm you posted a link a few years ago listing examples of successful worker owned businesses. If you still have it could you post it again I have googled and found a few lists but they are not a long list like you posted.
 
The government doing things in service to the people IS socialism. It is looking after society as a whole.

Capitalism is looking after what the individual owns. It is being consumed with how much one owns.

There is no part of capitalism that includes collecting taxes and using the money for public programs.

Capitalism is trying to find the most helpless population to pay the lowest labor price and the most corrupt government to pollute the environment as much as desired in any manner desired.

That the US government built the roads so capitalists could prosper is because the US government is run by big business.

Capitalism is also anti-democratic.

The Government doing things in service to the people is socialism is the right wing definition of socialism. It's a poison pill used to increase citizen fear and loathing for social programs. Why do so many on the left allow right wingers to define words as they see fit?
 
The government doing things in service to the people IS socialism. It is looking after society as a whole.

Capitalism is looking after what the individual owns. It is being consumed with how much one owns.

There is no part of capitalism that includes collecting taxes and using the money for public programs.

Capitalism is trying to find the most helpless population to pay the lowest labor price and the most corrupt government to pollute the environment as much as desired in any manner desired.

That the US government built the roads so capitalists could prosper is because the US government is run by big business.

Capitalism is also anti-democratic.

The Government doing things in service to the people is socialism is the right wing definition of socialism. It's a poison pill used to increase citizen fear and loathing for social programs. Why do so many on the left allow right wingers to define words as they see fit?

It is the capitalist definition of socialism.

Using the government to help people has nothing to do with capitalism.
 
Where does 'pure capitalism' exist in the world today? Or 'pure socialism'? We have mixed economies and a whole lot of caterwauling from left and right as to what the 'purer' ism would bring.
 
The government doing things in service to the people IS socialism. It is looking after society as a whole.

Capitalism is looking after what the individual owns. It is being consumed with how much one owns.

There is no part of capitalism that includes collecting taxes and using the money for public programs.

Capitalism is trying to find the most helpless population to pay the lowest labor price and the most corrupt government to pollute the environment as much as desired in any manner desired.

That the US government built the roads so capitalists could prosper is because the US government is run by big business.

Capitalism is also anti-democratic.

The Government doing things in service to the people is socialism is the right wing definition of socialism. It's a poison pill used to increase citizen fear and loathing for social programs. Why do so many on the left allow right wingers to define words as they see fit?

It is the capitalist definition of socialism.

Using the government to help people has nothing to do with capitalism.

This thread isn't about capitalism. It is on how to properly define socialism. Do we use the right wing definition that you advocate, or do we use the one from the dictionary? The right wing definition is used to demonize those who advocate for a better safety net. I don't understand why you help them?
 
It not only demonizes the people who want a better safety net, it makes actual socialists politically incomprehensible. Whenever someone with genuine socialist leanings starts to talk, everybody finishes their sentence with "...and I guess the government will take it over, right? Who's gonna pay for that? Worked real well for China under Mao!"

Now, I have nothing against state services that increase the well-being of citizens, or policies that protect poor and vulnerable ones. I certainly won't oppose any kind of reform that helps workers and the middle class on the grounds that it's NOT socialism. I just wish people would realize that socialism is something different than state policies that help citizens. It has an important meaning that gets diluted when you focus on the state, which is just the instrument that has historically been used by those who attempted to work towards socialism by one route.
 
It is the capitalist definition of socialism.

Using the government to help people has nothing to do with capitalism.

This thread isn't about capitalism. It is on how to properly define socialism. Do we use the right wing definition that you advocate, or do we use the one from the dictionary? The right wing definition is used to demonize those who advocate for a better safety net. I don't understand why you help them?

In a pure sense socialism must mean the word it contains. It is the same word as we find in society.

Pure socialism is just concern for society as a whole. So building an interstate highway system is socialism.

Capitalism is about concern for yourself and your property with no conception of a society. The invisible hand is supposed to care for society.

Any economic scheme designed for a society would have an inherent morality.

It would question all powers structures within the system.
 
It is the capitalist definition of socialism.

Using the government to help people has nothing to do with capitalism.

This thread isn't about capitalism. It is on how to properly define socialism. Do we use the right wing definition that you advocate, or do we use the one from the dictionary? The right wing definition is used to demonize those who advocate for a better safety net. I don't understand why you help them?

In a pure sense socialism must mean the word it contains.
Not in any language on the face of the planet dude. If you want to learn what an assassin is, you don't go looking at the root word, which is "hashishiyyin," meaning hashish-user in Arabic. Probably most assassins these days don't use drugs but what do I know
 
In a pure sense socialism must mean the word it contains.
Not in any language on the face of the planet dude. If you want to learn what an assassin is, you don't go looking at the root word, which is "hashishiyyin," meaning hashish-user in Arabic. Probably most assassins these days don't use drugs but what do I know

In English yes. It comes right from "social".

Socialism with a capital "S" has a more specific definition.
 
Dear Lorenm you posted a link a few years ago listing examples of successful worker owned businesses. If you still have it could you post it again I have googled and found a few lists but they are not a long list like you posted.

While I recall seeing such a list I was not the one who posted it. Perhaps Harry Bosch?
 
There's a spectre haunting our political discourse, and it's the idea that anytime a government produces something or provides a service, it's an example of socialism. The more the government does or provides, the more socialist the country is. This misunderstanding of socialism is understandable in some sense, but it still ought to be corrected.

In the last century, every attempt at implementing society-wide socialism has followed the same basic model as the Soviet Union. After the revolution, Lenin envisioned a path to socialism that would pass through a phase that he called state capitalism.

Vladimir Lenin said:
In order to convince the reader that this is not the first time I have given this ‘high’ appreciation of state capitalism and that I gave it before the Bolsheviks seized power I take the liberty of quoting the following passage from my pamphlet The Impending Catastrophe and How to Combat It, written in September 1917.

". . . Try to substitute for the Junker-capitalist state, for the landowner-capitalist state, a revolutionary-democratic state, i.e., a state which in a revolutionary way abolishes all privileges and does not fear to introduce the fullest democracy in a revolutionary way. You will find that, given a really revolutionary-democratic state, state-monopoly capitalism inevitably and unavoidably implies a step, and more than one step, towards socialism!"

". . . For socialism is merely the next step forward from state-capitalist monopoly."

". . . State-monopoly capitalism is a complete material preparation for socialism, the threshold of socialism, a rung on the ladder of history between which and the rung called socialism there are no intermediate rungs’ (pages 27 and 28)."

So, the architect of this economic system was well aware that it was not socialism, not yet, but believed it to be a necessary stepping-stone from here to there. What did state capitalism under Lenin do? It changed the pre-revolutionary system in two major ways: it changed from private ownership to state ownership (in large industry, not in agriculture or small business, which was still the largest part of the Russian economy) and changed from market dominance to planning. There were still markets, but they played a much less prominent role than before.

(By the way, farms were privately owned for the first time in Russian history! This was a concession to get the mass of people behind the revolution itself--by convincing them that it had granted them their own land, free from the encroachment of a feudal lord. It remained this way for decades, until Stalin also began nationalizing agriculture.)

So, why did state capitalism take this form? Why did Lenin and the Bolsheviks (who were by no means the majority of Marxists in the world and had bitter rivalries with those on the left, who were anti-state) believe that this was how to achieve socialism in Russia? The answer is simple: they saw the state as an ally of bourgeois capitalism that needed to be overtaken, harnessed by the proletariat. A system where the state runs everything wasn't the goal of the revolution, nor the goal of socialism, it was just what everybody saw as the most direct way of gaining power where they had none before.

It was a very macro-level way of thinking. The reasoning went, if workers seize the state apparatus and install right-minded officials in positions of power, then instead of serving the interests of the ruling class, the state will serve the interests of the working class. In other words, the Russian revolution pretty much left all the structural elements of the previous economy intact--positions of authority, the relationship between workers and their product, and the dynamic between wages and expenses--they simply changed the personnel. Instead of private owners running the factories and taking charge of the means of production, party bureaucrats did. Workers still showed up at the factory, worked their shifts, and went home, leaving the fruits of their labor back at the factory to be taken by someone else. On farms, peasants worked their privately owned plots of land, producing food for themselves and their families for part of the time and selling the surplus to industrial workers in the cities.

Is it any wonder socialism never emerged in these conditions?

The class relationship between workers and non-workers was the central theme of Marx's analysis of capitalism. He endlessly examined the dimensions of worker struggle for e.g. a shorter workday and how relinquishing every bit of their productive output to non-workers the instant they produced it would lead to alienation and social unrest among workers. Yet, Lenin and his followers ignored this element almost completely, and focused all of their efforts on this idea of a party vanguard, an elite, incorruptible political body that perfectly mirrored the interests of workers. Between 1917 and 1989, the society that resulted from these policies achieved extraordinary advances in an absurdly short amount of time, amidst multiple wars and beset on all sides by rivals, until it finally collapsed.

Its history is an important lesson, but the lesson is not that socialism has been tried and has failed. Primarily, it's a lesson for socialists, an acknowledgement that changing the macro-level organization of a society by modifying its power structure will not yield durable improvements WITHOUT also altering the class relationships at the heart of the workplace. In the wake of the USSR, so far every fledgling experiment in socialism has followed the same path of nationalization and planning, with little attention paid to the position of workers relative to their productive output, which is arguably the major (some would say entire) substance of socialism.

---

So no, the post office is not socialism, roads and bridges are not socialism, police and military are not socialism. Those are just state services, and in a society like the United States, they primarily exist to preserve the interests of capitalism. If a politician tries to say we can have socialism if the right people are in charge of the state, they are making the same mistake as the Bolsheviks did. At best, we can have something akin to social democracy, of the type often alluded to in Scandinavian countries, Portugal, and so on, but these are not permanent solutions to the problems socialism is trying to address; indeed, much of the social democratic reforms that were instituted in these places are being reversed as we speak. These are not "mixed economies" just because the state is leveraged as an agent of economic influence. You can certainly arrange nations along a spectrum based on how much power the government has over commodity production and exchange, but you will not be describing a spectrum between capitalism and socialism as long as there is no accompanying spectrum of how much democratic control workers have over the wealth they produce for society.

Here's a tip. Don't let Lenin, Mao, Reagan or Jordan Peterson define socialism for you. It'll be less confusing. Any government aid to the people that is purely without reciprocal demands IS socialism. Any policy intended to lead to equality, IS socialism. Socialism isn't a dirty word. Marx was right about a lot of things. Which is why Marxism changed the world, and every modern country today is to a large extent socialist.

It was defined in the 19'th century. So the bar for what is socialism is set incredibly low.
 
I read Jordan Petersons 12 rules for life. It's funny how he conflates all forms of socialism, as if being for welfare is being for Stalinist totalitarianism. And he uses the Gulag system as an example of socialism not working. While USA today is an excellent shining example of how socialism is working just fine.

People tend to think in dichotomies which is why it can get this silly.
 
There's a spectre haunting our political discourse, and it's the idea that anytime a government produces something or provides a service, it's an example of socialism. The more the government does or provides, the more socialist the country is. This misunderstanding of socialism is understandable in some sense, but it still ought to be corrected.

In the last century, every attempt at implementing society-wide socialism has followed the same basic model as the Soviet Union. After the revolution, Lenin envisioned a path to socialism that would pass through a phase that he called state capitalism.

Vladimir Lenin said:
In order to convince the reader that this is not the first time I have given this ‘high’ appreciation of state capitalism and that I gave it before the Bolsheviks seized power I take the liberty of quoting the following passage from my pamphlet The Impending Catastrophe and How to Combat It, written in September 1917.

". . . Try to substitute for the Junker-capitalist state, for the landowner-capitalist state, a revolutionary-democratic state, i.e., a state which in a revolutionary way abolishes all privileges and does not fear to introduce the fullest democracy in a revolutionary way. You will find that, given a really revolutionary-democratic state, state-monopoly capitalism inevitably and unavoidably implies a step, and more than one step, towards socialism!"

". . . For socialism is merely the next step forward from state-capitalist monopoly."

". . . State-monopoly capitalism is a complete material preparation for socialism, the threshold of socialism, a rung on the ladder of history between which and the rung called socialism there are no intermediate rungs’ (pages 27 and 28)."

So, the architect of this economic system was well aware that it was not socialism, not yet, but believed it to be a necessary stepping-stone from here to there. What did state capitalism under Lenin do? It changed the pre-revolutionary system in two major ways: it changed from private ownership to state ownership (in large industry, not in agriculture or small business, which was still the largest part of the Russian economy) and changed from market dominance to planning. There were still markets, but they played a much less prominent role than before.

(By the way, farms were privately owned for the first time in Russian history! This was a concession to get the mass of people behind the revolution itself--by convincing them that it had granted them their own land, free from the encroachment of a feudal lord. It remained this way for decades, until Stalin also began nationalizing agriculture.)

So, why did state capitalism take this form? Why did Lenin and the Bolsheviks (who were by no means the majority of Marxists in the world and had bitter rivalries with those on the left, who were anti-state) believe that this was how to achieve socialism in Russia? The answer is simple: they saw the state as an ally of bourgeois capitalism that needed to be overtaken, harnessed by the proletariat. A system where the state runs everything wasn't the goal of the revolution, nor the goal of socialism, it was just what everybody saw as the most direct way of gaining power where they had none before.

It was a very macro-level way of thinking. The reasoning went, if workers seize the state apparatus and install right-minded officials in positions of power, then instead of serving the interests of the ruling class, the state will serve the interests of the working class. In other words, the Russian revolution pretty much left all the structural elements of the previous economy intact--positions of authority, the relationship between workers and their product, and the dynamic between wages and expenses--they simply changed the personnel. Instead of private owners running the factories and taking charge of the means of production, party bureaucrats did. Workers still showed up at the factory, worked their shifts, and went home, leaving the fruits of their labor back at the factory to be taken by someone else. On farms, peasants worked their privately owned plots of land, producing food for themselves and their families for part of the time and selling the surplus to industrial workers in the cities.

Is it any wonder socialism never emerged in these conditions?

The class relationship between workers and non-workers was the central theme of Marx's analysis of capitalism. He endlessly examined the dimensions of worker struggle for e.g. a shorter workday and how relinquishing every bit of their productive output to non-workers the instant they produced it would lead to alienation and social unrest among workers. Yet, Lenin and his followers ignored this element almost completely, and focused all of their efforts on this idea of a party vanguard, an elite, incorruptible political body that perfectly mirrored the interests of workers. Between 1917 and 1989, the society that resulted from these policies achieved extraordinary advances in an absurdly short amount of time, amidst multiple wars and beset on all sides by rivals, until it finally collapsed.

Its history is an important lesson, but the lesson is not that socialism has been tried and has failed. Primarily, it's a lesson for socialists, an acknowledgement that changing the macro-level organization of a society by modifying its power structure will not yield durable improvements WITHOUT also altering the class relationships at the heart of the workplace. In the wake of the USSR, so far every fledgling experiment in socialism has followed the same path of nationalization and planning, with little attention paid to the position of workers relative to their productive output, which is arguably the major (some would say entire) substance of socialism.

---

So no, the post office is not socialism, roads and bridges are not socialism, police and military are not socialism. Those are just state services, and in a society like the United States, they primarily exist to preserve the interests of capitalism. If a politician tries to say we can have socialism if the right people are in charge of the state, they are making the same mistake as the Bolsheviks did. At best, we can have something akin to social democracy, of the type often alluded to in Scandinavian countries, Portugal, and so on, but these are not permanent solutions to the problems socialism is trying to address; indeed, much of the social democratic reforms that were instituted in these places are being reversed as we speak. These are not "mixed economies" just because the state is leveraged as an agent of economic influence. You can certainly arrange nations along a spectrum based on how much power the government has over commodity production and exchange, but you will not be describing a spectrum between capitalism and socialism as long as there is no accompanying spectrum of how much democratic control workers have over the wealth they produce for society.

Here's a tip. Don't let Lenin, Mao, Reagan or Jordan Peterson define socialism for you. It'll be less confusing. Any government aid to the people that is purely without reciprocal demands IS socialism. Any policy intended to lead to equality, IS socialism. Socialism isn't a dirty word. Marx was right about a lot of things. Which is why Marxism changed the world, and every modern country today is to a large extent socialist.

It was defined in the 19'th century. So the bar for what is socialism is set incredibly low.

Lol. name one thing Marx was right about that has anything to do with 'government aid to the people without reciprocal demands'
 
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