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The horrible horrible world of sports

DrZoidberg

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It's funny how many sports officials keep getting deposed over racist and sexist remarks. It's not slowing down. People with well paying jobs, they worked all their lives to get, talk like this all the time as if it's completely normal. Which it obviously is. Then get fired.

It's so obvious how there's parallel worlds now. There's the media world of pretend speech where nobody says what they really are thinking. And the real world.

With the advent of the Internet normal people are training themselves to express themselves freely (like we're doing here). When normal people get catapulted into the world of fame and power they aren't always aware that now they need to stop talking like they normally talk.

I think it's absurd that we're demanding sports professionals to have gender and racial sensibilities that require a university degree to master. These are working class people who worked their way up in life. They're not academics. I think it's cruel and stupid to wreck their careers just because they make the mistake of just talking like normal people talk.

Whether or not the people who make these remarks are sexist or racist is anyone's guess. But I highly doubt working class people who use colorful language are literal at all times. Perhaps it's attempt at humour that fails. Or any other non-nefarious explanation. Or they really are racists and sexists? Is that so bad? It's just sports. If you are good at sports you do well. The racism of the organisers of competitions doesn't really matter. Does it? The Nazis failed to stop Jesse Owens from scoring big in 1936.

I think our insistence of ideologically perfect and pure speech is intellectual snobbery and contempt for the working class.

I don't like it. I don't think it's a good thing. I also don't think it will do much to stop racism or sexism. Can't sports be the one place in the world where we let people just be themselves in all their horrible glory? Just so we have one little zone where we get to hear what normal people really think.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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It's funny how many sports officials keep getting deposed over racist and sexist remarks. It's not slowing down. People with well paying jobs, they worked all their lives to get, talk like this all the time as if it's completely normal. Which it obviously is. Then get fired.

It's so obvious how there's parallel worlds now. There's the media world of pretend speech where nobody says what they really are thinking. And the real world.

With the advent of the Internet normal people are training themselves to express themselves freely (like we're doing here). When normal people get catapulted into the world of fame and power they aren't always aware that now they need to stop talking like they normally talk.

I think it's absurd that we're demanding sports professionals to have gender and racial sensibilities that require a university degree to master. These are working class people who worked their way up in life. They're not academics. I think it's cruel and stupid to wreck their careers just because they make the mistake of just talking like normal people talk.

Whether or not the people who make these remarks are sexist or racist is anyone's guess. But I highly doubt working class people who use colorful language are literal at all times. Perhaps it's attempt at humour that fails. Or any other non-nefarious explanation. Or they really are racists and sexists? Is that so bad? It's just sports. If you are good at sports you do well. The racism of the organisers of competitions doesn't really matter. Does it? The Nazis failed to stop Jesse Owens from scoring big in 1936.

I think our insistence of ideologically perfect and pure speech is intellectual snobbery and contempt for the working class.

I don't like it. I don't think it's a good thing. I also don't think it will do much to stop racism or sexism. Can't sports be the one place in the world where we let people just be themselves in all their horrible glory? Just so we have one little zone where we get to hear what normal people really think.
Yeah, I get tired of reading how I don't work because I think inertia is a poor excuse for poor behavior. .
 

Toni

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It's funny how many sports officials keep getting deposed over racist and sexist remarks. It's not slowing down. People with well paying jobs, they worked all their lives to get, talk like this all the time as if it's completely normal. Which it obviously is. Then get fired.

It's so obvious how there's parallel worlds now. There's the media world of pretend speech where nobody says what they really are thinking. And the real world.

With the advent of the Internet normal people are training themselves to express themselves freely (like we're doing here). When normal people get catapulted into the world of fame and power they aren't always aware that now they need to stop talking like they normally talk.

I think it's absurd that we're demanding sports professionals to have gender and racial sensibilities that require a university degree to master. These are working class people who worked their way up in life. They're not academics. I think it's cruel and stupid to wreck their careers just because they make the mistake of just talking like normal people talk.

Whether or not the people who make these remarks are sexist or racist is anyone's guess. But I highly doubt working class people who use colorful language are literal at all times. Perhaps it's attempt at humour that fails. Or any other non-nefarious explanation. Or they really are racists and sexists? Is that so bad? It's just sports. If you are good at sports you do well. The racism of the organisers of competitions doesn't really matter. Does it? The Nazis failed to stop Jesse Owens from scoring big in 1936.

I think our insistence of ideologically perfect and pure speech is intellectual snobbery and contempt for the working class.

I don't like it. I don't think it's a good thing. I also don't think it will do much to stop racism or sexism. Can't sports be the one place in the world where we let people just be themselves in all their horrible glory? Just so we have one little zone where we get to hear what normal people really think.

I guess I suffered under the delusion that sports was a meritocracy, if an imperfect one. Also the delusion that human beings are supposed to be decent to one another, at least in public, and save their childish prejudices for private and at least recognize that it is wrong to mistreat people because of their race, sex, gender, gender identity, etc.

Within any realm, people talk the way that they are allowed to talk. Guess what? People code switch all the time, using speech patterns, phrases, etc. even accents depending upon where they are. It's largely a survival mechanism. Black people often code switch depending on whether they are in a professional setting, and what kind of social setting they are in. But hey, I do it as well and probably to a certain extent, so does everyone. Without realizing it or without intention, I tend to revert to the accent and colloquialisms of my childhood when I am with family and friends from that area. However, I learned, as apparently so did the people I grew up with, that certain words and phrases have strongly negative racial overtones and while they were commonly used in my childhood, once I realized what those words and phrases meant, I stopped using them. People can and do learn and change their behavior, adapt to situations.

When I worked in a fairly international setting, I was always very careful about how I spoke to ensure that co-workers and others for whom English was a second language could understand me and not be confused by accent or colloquialisms. Among colleagues in my branch of science, I use certain terms that I wouldn't use at home and refrain from discussing things that I know would upset family ---or that would break confidentiality. In a professional setting, I would never swear, for example and I am careful to maintain a professional demeanor, no matter how another person is behaving.

Regardless of setting or situation, I don't use racist or sexist language, because I think it's wrong, hurtful, demeaning and ignorant and not reflective of my values or opinions or decent human behavior.

Even children speak differently among each other and among their close friends than they do with parents and teachers.

If children are expected to know how to speak with respect to others, why cannot sports figures do the same?

Racism and sexism have no place in sports.
 

Keith&Co.

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I think it's absurd that we're demanding sports professionals to have gender and racial sensibilities that require a university degree to master.
I have no degree. Never spent a day in college. My academic background stops in 1980, high school.

Strangely, i don't find it a matter of academics to respect other people. That's pretty much all i try to do.
Someone has a doctorate, wants to be called 'doctor,' then doing so is a matter of respect.
Same when my supervisor got married. My using Ms. or Mrs., and her new last name or her maiden name, is her call.
If the guy in the next cube wants to start being 'Tiffany,' then letting them be Tiffany is, n my mind, respecting her.
Treating everyone on the team as an equal, without casually OR angrily using racial slurs is not that difficult.

It's not that complicated, nor a class or education thing. And if people thrust into high visibility suddenly are on wide-audience display that they do not appear to respect people of a certain gender, race, ethnicity, then there are pretty basic consequences.

We've all had at least a little sensitivity training if only when Corporate or District covers their ass against future lawsuits. There's no excuse for continuing to use disrespectful language without even trying to change.
 

DrZoidberg

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I think it's absurd that we're demanding sports professionals to have gender and racial sensibilities that require a university degree to master.
I have no degree. Never spent a day in college. My academic background stops in 1980, high school.

Strangely, i don't find it a matter of academics to respect other people. That's pretty much all i try to do.
Someone has a doctorate, wants to be called 'doctor,' then doing so is a matter of respect.
Same when my supervisor got married. My using Ms. or Mrs., and her new last name or her maiden name, is her call.
If the guy in the next cube wants to start being 'Tiffany,' then letting them be Tiffany is, n my mind, respecting her.
Treating everyone on the team as an equal, without casually OR angrily using racial slurs is not that difficult.

It's not that complicated, nor a class or education thing. And if people thrust into high visibility suddenly are on wide-audience display that they do not appear to respect people of a certain gender, race, ethnicity, then there are pretty basic consequences.

We've all had at least a little sensitivity training if only when Corporate or District covers their ass against future lawsuits. There's no excuse for continuing to use disrespectful language without even trying to change.

Why do they need to change? It's sports. Why can't an athlete be allowed to be racist? Or sexist?

Some people have beliefs and opinions that offend. Do they all have to be silenced, always?

It's just sports. It's one thing if this was politics or a company or something where a racist could do some damage. But this is sports. It's not an intellectual activity. Why are we demanding from these guys to become politically correct?
 

Toni

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I think it's absurd that we're demanding sports professionals to have gender and racial sensibilities that require a university degree to master.
I have no degree. Never spent a day in college. My academic background stops in 1980, high school.

Strangely, i don't find it a matter of academics to respect other people. That's pretty much all i try to do.
Someone has a doctorate, wants to be called 'doctor,' then doing so is a matter of respect.
Same when my supervisor got married. My using Ms. or Mrs., and her new last name or her maiden name, is her call.
If the guy in the next cube wants to start being 'Tiffany,' then letting them be Tiffany is, n my mind, respecting her.
Treating everyone on the team as an equal, without casually OR angrily using racial slurs is not that difficult.

It's not that complicated, nor a class or education thing. And if people thrust into high visibility suddenly are on wide-audience display that they do not appear to respect people of a certain gender, race, ethnicity, then there are pretty basic consequences.

We've all had at least a little sensitivity training if only when Corporate or District covers their ass against future lawsuits. There's no excuse for continuing to use disrespectful language without even trying to change.

Why do they need to change? It's sports. Why can't an athlete be allowed to be racist? Or sexist?

Some people have beliefs and opinions that offend. Do they all have to be silenced, always?

It's just sports. It's one thing if this was politics or a company or something where a racist could do some damage. But this is sports. It's not an intellectual activity. Why are we demanding from these guys to become politically correct?

Why can't athletes and others in the sports world expect the same consequences the rest of us face when we treat others horribly?
 

Keith&Co.

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Yes, it's 'just sports.' Athletes getting millions of dollars to entertain millions of people.

Athletes with a significant chance of making a career of selling orange juice or shoes. Meaning that they will get paid to share their opinions BECAUSE they can be expected to reach and influence a large audience with their opinions.

Who WANT their opinions on chewing tobacco held in high esteem and altering people's spending habits, but their comments on race and gender should be ignored because it's 'just sports.'

They have a larger platform to shape opinion with than some politicians. They do not get to have it both ways jus tbecause they're 'dumb jocks.'
 

Jimmy Higgins

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I think it's absurd that we're demanding sports professionals to have gender and racial sensibilities that require a university degree to master.
I have no degree. Never spent a day in college. My academic background stops in 1980, high school.

Strangely, i don't find it a matter of academics to respect other people. That's pretty much all i try to do.
Someone has a doctorate, wants to be called 'doctor,' then doing so is a matter of respect.
Same when my supervisor got married. My using Ms. or Mrs., and her new last name or her maiden name, is her call.
If the guy in the next cube wants to start being 'Tiffany,' then letting them be Tiffany is, n my mind, respecting her.
Treating everyone on the team as an equal, without casually OR angrily using racial slurs is not that difficult.

It's not that complicated, nor a class or education thing. And if people thrust into high visibility suddenly are on wide-audience display that they do not appear to respect people of a certain gender, race, ethnicity, then there are pretty basic consequences.

We've all had at least a little sensitivity training if only when Corporate or District covers their ass against future lawsuits. There's no excuse for continuing to use disrespectful language without even trying to change.

Why do they need to change? It's sports.
And to answer that question, we go to a visibly angry Jackie Robinson, who is holding a metal baseball bat in a... *splat*

Why can't an athlete be allowed to be racist? Or sexist?
They can be whatever they want to. Why are we not allowed to have opinions? Why is it in Dr. Zoidberg's utopia, only assholes matter (#OAM)?

Some people have beliefs and opinions that offend. Do they all have to be silenced, always?
So are we drawing the line at beliefs, verbal abuse, physical abuse?
 

Keith&Co.

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Within any realm, people talk the way that they are allowed to talk. Guess what? People code switch all the time, using speech patterns, phrases, etc. even accents depending upon where they are. It's largely a survival mechanism. Black people often code switch depending on whether they are in a professional setting, and what kind of social setting they are in. But hey, I do it as well and probably to a certain extent, so does everyone.
Not everyone.
I'm thinking of a candidate for President who was filmed admitting to bragging about sexual assault.
He dismissed criticism based on the conversation being 'locker room talk.' The direct implication being that if such behavior was tolerated in certain enclaves, he should be forgiven for using outside of such enclaves. For getting caught.

This is not uncommon. many people defend certain words or phrases by claiming it was acceptable somewhere else, such as the past, the distant past, the less PC past, the military, sports, seminary, or 'locker rooms.'
Well, so was slavery and wife-beating. Grow up or shut up.
 

T.G.G. Moogly

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Why do they need to change? It's sports. Why can't an athlete be allowed to be racist? Or sexist?

Some people have beliefs and opinions that offend. Do they all have to be silenced, always?

It's just sports. It's one thing if this was politics or a company or something where a racist could do some damage. But this is sports. It's not an intellectual activity. Why are we demanding from these guys to become politically correct?

Why can't athletes and others in the sports world expect the same consequences the rest of us face when we treat others horribly?

The world of sport is inhabited by knuckle-dragging, hair pulling, club-wielding, intellectually deprived, self-aggrandizing cave dwellers. That's the premise.
 

Toni

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Within any realm, people talk the way that they are allowed to talk. Guess what? People code switch all the time, using speech patterns, phrases, etc. even accents depending upon where they are. It's largely a survival mechanism. Black people often code switch depending on whether they are in a professional setting, and what kind of social setting they are in. But hey, I do it as well and probably to a certain extent, so does everyone.
Not everyone.
I'm thinking of a candidate for President who was filmed admitting to bragging about sexual assault.
He dismissed criticism based on the conversation being 'locker room talk.' The direct implication being that if such behavior was tolerated in certain enclaves, he should be forgiven for using outside of such enclaves. For getting caught.

This is not uncommon. many people defend certain words or phrases by claiming it was acceptable somewhere else, such as the past, the distant past, the less PC past, the military, sports, seminary, or 'locker rooms.'
Well, so was slavery and wife-beating. Grow up or shut up.

Yeah, he was allowed to act and speak that way. If he faced negative i sequences: money and attention dried up, he is t dumb enough not to modify his public behavior. But he apparently rly appeals to those who think that being rich and famous gives you license to treat others like dirt and disrespectful language is merely being ‘authentic.’
 

Keith&Co.

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The world of sport is inhabited by knuckle-dragging, hair pulling, club-wielding, intellectually deprived, self-aggrandizing cave dwellers. That's the premise.
The world of sport is exclusivelyinhabited by knuckle-dragging, hair pulling, club-wielding, intellectually deprived, self-aggrandizing white, male cave dwellers.
That's the full premise. No need to worry about sexist or racist comments being offensive if there's no one but white dumb men playing the sport; watching the sport; coaching the sport; reporting on the teams, owners, games, players or their felony trials; owning the teams; or watching their commercials.
 

Keith&Co.

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Yeah, he was allowed to act and speak that way. If he faced negative i sequences: money and attention dried up, he is t dumb enough not to modify his public behavior. But he apparently rly appeals to those who think that being rich and famous gives you license to treat others like dirt and disrespectful language is merely being ‘authentic.’
Well, Florida Man is just the Ur-Lord of such people. Those that insist "I should be permitted to do this here because i am permitted to do it there." (or 'then' or 'among them.')

My grandmother grew up in Florida a zillion years ago. She insisted, almost to the say she met my fiancé, that black people preferred to be called 'Darkies,' because that's what she was taught to call them in the Dark Ages.

Papa John's founder kept complaining that he couldn't use the n-word the way KFC's Colonel used to. "HE got away with it, why can't I?"

If there's any place set up where it's safe to be sexist, racist, etc. then certain people will try to use that to justify the same behavior farther afield.
 

funinspace

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I think it's absurd that we're demanding sports professionals to have gender and racial sensibilities that require a university degree to master.
I have no degree. Never spent a day in college. My academic background stops in 1980, high school.

Strangely, i don't find it a matter of academics to respect other people. That's pretty much all i try to do.
Someone has a doctorate, wants to be called 'doctor,' then doing so is a matter of respect.
Same when my supervisor got married. My using Ms. or Mrs., and her new last name or her maiden name, is her call.
If the guy in the next cube wants to start being 'Tiffany,' then letting them be Tiffany is, n my mind, respecting her.
Treating everyone on the team as an equal, without casually OR angrily using racial slurs is not that difficult.

It's not that complicated, nor a class or education thing. And if people thrust into high visibility suddenly are on wide-audience display that they do not appear to respect people of a certain gender, race, ethnicity, then there are pretty basic consequences.

We've all had at least a little sensitivity training if only when Corporate or District covers their ass against future lawsuits. There's no excuse for continuing to use disrespectful language without even trying to change.
I'm with Keith here, other than I have a BS degree in EE. However, at least in the early 1980's the engineering department provided no curriculum to create academic credentials to help in this regard. From what I gather, it seems that most engineers are not the most adept at political correctness, yet I seemed to have little trouble not inserting my foot in my mouth during my professional career. As Keith already suggested rocket science nor deep pondering of Plato is required to treat others with respect. It is a pretty simple formula...though Christian nationalism seems to be more and more confused, at least in the US.

And at least in a few organized sports, they are still allowed to act like adolescents when on the field as they get into fights. I can imagine if I punched or tackled a college as he pissed me off; some how I don't think I'd have a job the next day. Yet football stars get a slap on their pinky for their childish behavior...these guys are already coddled more than enough...
 

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The world of sport is inhabited by knuckle-dragging, hair pulling, club-wielding, intellectually deprived, self-aggrandizing cave dwellers. That's the premise.
The world of sport is exclusivelyinhabited by knuckle-dragging, hair pulling, club-wielding, intellectually deprived, self-aggrandizing white, male cave dwellers.
That's the full premise. No need to worry about sexist or racist comments being offensive if there's no one but white dumb men playing the sport; watching the sport; coaching the sport; reporting on the teams, owners, games, players or their felony trials; owning the teams; or watching their commercials.

It saddens me that I can't tell if you're serious or not.
 

DrZoidberg

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Why do they need to change? It's sports. Why can't an athlete be allowed to be racist? Or sexist?

Some people have beliefs and opinions that offend. Do they all have to be silenced, always?

It's just sports. It's one thing if this was politics or a company or something where a racist could do some damage. But this is sports. It's not an intellectual activity. Why are we demanding from these guys to become politically correct?

Why can't athletes and others in the sports world expect the same consequences the rest of us face when we treat others horribly?

The world of sport is inhabited by knuckle-dragging, hair pulling, club-wielding, intellectually deprived, self-aggrandizing cave dwellers. That's the premise.

Really? I think that says more about your assumptions than mine.

Having any demands on deological purity in sports is silly. How about keeping all politics out of sports? How can that be a bad thing?
 

Swammerdami

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The coaching staff and players of the England football team have recently demonstrated a far better command of sensitivity and inclusiveness than their nation's government.

I don't think that sport is the problem.

And, IIRC, Colin Kaepernick was well accepted by his fellow athletes, black or white. It was the Trump-Hannity-Carlson ilk that were implicitly racist when they attacked him.

The world of sport is inhabited by knuckle-dragging, hair pulling, club-wielding, intellectually deprived, self-aggrandizing cave dwellers. That's the premise.
The world of sport is exclusivelyinhabited by knuckle-dragging, hair pulling, club-wielding, intellectually deprived, self-aggrandizing white, male cave dwellers.
That's the full premise. No need to worry about sexist or racist comments being offensive if there's no one but white dumb men playing the sport; watching the sport; coaching the sport; reporting on the teams, owners, games, players or their felony trials; owning the teams; or watching their commercials.

It saddens me that I can't tell if you're serious or not.

It also saddens me a little that YOU can't tell Moogly and Keith are being sarcastic.


Having said all this, I MIGHT agree with Dr. Z in some specific cases. (I like specifics, but this thread deals only with generalities.) All sentient Americans know that the N_____ word is verboten (except between two blacks). But what about mentioning that a young woman is pretty? Such an ordinary remark is verboten among the Super-PC set, yet still seems natural and relatively innocent to many ordinary people.
 

DrZoidberg

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Having said all this, I MIGHT agree with Dr. Z in some specific cases. (I like specifics, but this thread deals only with generalities.) All sentient Americans know that the N_____ word is verboten (except between two blacks). But what about mentioning that a young woman is pretty? Such an ordinary remark is verboten among the Super-PC set, yet still seems natural and relatively innocent to many ordinary people.

You are missing the point. It's SPORTS. Who gives a shit what an athlete thinks about anything? Who gives a rats ass if the guy who wins at long jump is a member of KKK? Or if the bronze medalist pole vaulter is a member of the Taleban? Or if the gold winner of badminton is open about their pedophilia? Or if the guy who does the schedules for the tennis tournament thinks beating your wife is morally ok because it says in the Bible?

How would any of that take away from their athletic performance or ability to organize a sports competition?

I just think that ideology has no place in sports. That's all I wanted to say with this thread. We don't have to police ideological purity ALL THE FUCKING TIME. It's reached a point where I think it's ridiculous and it needs to stop. And when we reach the point where we're rapping athletes on the knuckles for what they say, then it's gone too far, IMHO. They're not paid to think. They're paid to sport.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Having said all this, I MIGHT agree with Dr. Z in some specific cases. (I like specifics, but this thread deals only with generalities.) All sentient Americans know that the N_____ word is verboten (except between two blacks). But what about mentioning that a young woman is pretty? Such an ordinary remark is verboten among the Super-PC set, yet still seems natural and relatively innocent to many ordinary people.

You are missing the point. It's SPORTS. Who gives a shit what an athlete thinks about anything?
You mean other than advertisers and the people advertised to?
 

DrZoidberg

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Having said all this, I MIGHT agree with Dr. Z in some specific cases. (I like specifics, but this thread deals only with generalities.) All sentient Americans know that the N_____ word is verboten (except between two blacks). But what about mentioning that a young woman is pretty? Such an ordinary remark is verboten among the Super-PC set, yet still seems natural and relatively innocent to many ordinary people.

You are missing the point. It's SPORTS. Who gives a shit what an athlete thinks about anything?
You mean other than advertisers and the people advertised to?

I know you have a penchant for defending thought crime. I don't.

Just because the corporate world joins in on the intolerance doesn't make it a good thing.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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You mean other than advertisers and the people advertised to?

I know you have a penchant for defending thought crime. I don't.
Dude, you asked a question.
Dr. Zoidberg said:
Who gives a shit what an athlete thinks about anything?
I answered it. Clearly companies and advertisers and those advertised to care what athletes think due to the amount of money athletes are paid to promote a product. They've been paying them a lot for a long while.

You tried to negate the importance of what athletes think by pretending no one cares what they think. That was pretty easily debunked. So if you don't like having a question you asked being answered, you should stop asking questions.
 

Keith&Co.

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Dude, you asked a question.
Dr. Zoidberg said:
Who gives a shit what an athlete thinks about anything?
I answered it. Clearly companies and advertisers and those advertised to care what athletes think due to the amount of money athletes are paid to promote a product. They've been paying them a lot for a long while.

You tried to negate the importance of what athletes think by pretending no one cares what they think. That was pretty easily debunked. So if you don't like having a question you asked being answered, you should stop asking questions.

If nothing else, the way an athlete loses endorsements after he or she starts spouting sexist or racist crap, indicates that at least the advertisers think lots and lots of people care.
No one seems to think, "Okay, he's an ass, but our target demographic is smart enough to know that his opinion on women's voting rights has nothing to do with his ability to differentiate between the smooth smoke of our cigars and the burning rat's nest taste of our competitor's product. We'll keep him on the 60-second spot."

The Good Doctor would insist that HE is not subject to manipulation by advertising, and would assume that no one else is or wants to be, thus 'sportsmen' can be ignored for low-brow behavior down in the manual-labor levels of society.
 

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It's funny how many sports officials keep getting deposed over racist and sexist remarks. It's not slowing down. People with well paying jobs, they worked all their lives to get, talk like this all the time as if it's completely normal. Which it obviously is. Then get fired.

It's so obvious how there's parallel worlds now. There's the media world of pretend speech where nobody says what they really are thinking. And the real world.

With the advent of the Internet normal people are training themselves to express themselves freely (like we're doing here). When normal people get catapulted into the world of fame and power they aren't always aware that now they need to stop talking like they normally talk.

I think it's absurd that we're demanding sports professionals to have gender and racial sensibilities that require a university degree to master. These are working class people who worked their way up in life. They're not academics. I think it's cruel and stupid to wreck their careers just because they make the mistake of just talking like normal people talk.

Whether or not the people who make these remarks are sexist or racist is anyone's guess. But I highly doubt working class people who use colorful language are literal at all times. Perhaps it's attempt at humour that fails. Or any other non-nefarious explanation. Or they really are racists and sexists? Is that so bad? It's just sports. If you are good at sports you do well. The racism of the organisers of competitions doesn't really matter. Does it? The Nazis failed to stop Jesse Owens from scoring big in 1936.

I think our insistence of ideologically perfect and pure speech is intellectual snobbery and contempt for the working class.

I don't like it. I don't think it's a good thing. I also don't think it will do much to stop racism or sexism. Can't sports be the one place in the world where we let people just be themselves in all their horrible glory? Just so we have one little zone where we get to hear what normal people really think.

What inspired this post? Is there a particular incident that you are thinking of?

I'm not really a sports fan myself, so what happens there is not of much consequence to me. But from what little I've seen, there doesn't seem to be much racism going on within a team or between teams. I see players of different races and backgrounds generally getting along, high fiving, hugging, patting each other on the back, celebrating victories together, consoling each other, etc. To me, sports seems to be more a positve example of how different people can get along. There are the occassional scuffles and fights, but those don't seem to be racially motivated. It used to be that being gay was something you had to hide (at least in male sports), but that seems to have gone by the wayside these days.

What pisses me off is woke shit getting interjected into sports (like it does with everything else). The woke media seems to be scrutinizing every little action to find something to be offended about, and then subsequently punish with reckless abandon. A good example is what happened to tennis commentator Doug Adler:

https://nypost.com/2020/01/25/espn-tennis-analyst-doug-adler-still-paying-for-absurd-racist-accusation/

You likely recall Adler, now 61, an ESPN tennis analyst, a walk-on All-American at USC, as the victim of ESPN’s and the New York Times’ preposterous prosecution of him as an unrestrained, on-air racist that led to his firing as he called the 2017 Australian Open.

That was the episode in which Adler complimented Venus Williams for her successful “guerilla” tactics in poaching the net. Guerilla-style tennis had become such a regularly spoken term that Nike starred Andre Agassi and Pete Sampras in a commercial playing “guerilla tennis.”

Just after Adler praised Williams’ guerilla tactics, Ben Rothenberg, a freelancer covering for the New York Times, recklessly tweeted that Adler had just racially slurred her as “a gorilla,” adding, “It’s horrifying that the Williams sisters have to be subjected to this in 2017.”

Its' one thing to basically upend someone's career, or life, because of a racist slur or a sexist comment... it's a punishment that doesn't fit the "crime". But it's a whole new level of absurdity and depravity when its done and the accuser is 100% in the wrong. And no one seems to care. Because social justice.
 

funinspace

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You mean other than advertisers and the people advertised to?

I know you have a penchant for defending thought crime. I don't.

Just because the corporate world joins in on the intolerance doesn't make it a good thing.
But it is not just sports. Endorsements and advertising is about image, idolization, and wanting to be like that star athlete. Up to a point athletes can still be assholes, they just won't be able to milk the endorsement gravy train...
 

Swammerdami

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Having said all this, I MIGHT agree with Dr. Z in some specific cases. (I like specifics, but this thread deals only with generalities.) All sentient Americans know that the N_____ word is verboten (except between two blacks). But what about mentioning that a young woman is pretty? Such an ordinary remark is verboten among the Super-PC set, yet still seems natural and relatively innocent to many ordinary people.

You are missing the point. It's SPORTS. Who gives a shit what an athlete thinks about anything? Who gives a rats ass if the guy who wins at long jump is a member of KKK? Or if the bronze medalist pole vaulter is a member of the Taleban? Or if the gold winner of badminton is open about their pedophilia? Or if the guy who does the schedules for the tennis tournament thinks beating your wife is morally ok because it says in the Bible?

How would any of that take away from their athletic performance or ability to organize a sports competition?...
I guess I did "miss the point." I adopted the  Principle of charity and assumed you were speaking of what conservatives call "excessive wokeness." I don't have a problem with porn, but I do draw the line before you do, evidently. If the best badminton player in the world is a child rapist, I'd prefer the second-best player to get the gold medal while the best player is sent to prison, or at least ostracized.

The Taliban is a murderous group with disgusting "ideology"; if the third-best pole vaulter is a member of the Taliban I don't want him competing: It would send a bad message to children.

I try to be tolerant, but I don't tolerate rape, injustice, and various other crimes.

I admit this is the first I've heard that some people treat pedophilia as just another ideology to be tolerated. I invoked the Principle of charity to partially agree with you. Now that you've clarified, I hereby retract that partial agreement.

Principle of Charity said:
In philosophy and rhetoric, the principle of charity or charitable interpretation requires interpreting a speaker's statements in the most rational way possible and, in the case of any argument, considering its best, strongest possible interpretation.
 

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Dude, you asked a question.
Dr. Zoidberg said:
Who gives a shit what an athlete thinks about anything?
I answered it. Clearly companies and advertisers and those advertised to care what athletes think due to the amount of money athletes are paid to promote a product. They've been paying them a lot for a long while.

You tried to negate the importance of what athletes think by pretending no one cares what they think. That was pretty easily debunked. So if you don't like having a question you asked being answered, you should stop asking questions.

It was a rhetorical question. Why would anyone care what an athlete thinks about anything? It's retarded.
 

DrZoidberg

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You mean other than advertisers and the people advertised to?

I know you have a penchant for defending thought crime. I don't.

Just because the corporate world joins in on the intolerance doesn't make it a good thing.
But it is not just sports. Endorsements and advertising is about image, idolization, and wanting to be like that star athlete. Up to a point athletes can still be assholes, they just won't be able to milk the endorsement gravy train...

No, it's just sports. Even if you idolise an athlete, it's not their brain or their thoughts you idolise
 

Toni

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Dude, you asked a question.
Dr. Zoidberg said:
Who gives a shit what an athlete thinks about anything?
I answered it. Clearly companies and advertisers and those advertised to care what athletes think due to the amount of money athletes are paid to promote a product. They've been paying them a lot for a long while.

You tried to negate the importance of what athletes think by pretending no one cares what they think. That was pretty easily debunked. So if you don't like having a question you asked being answered, you should stop asking questions.

It was a rhetorical question. Why would anyone care what an athlete thinks about anything? It's retarded.

Well, no one will ever call you woke.
 

Toni

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It's funny how many sports officials keep getting deposed over racist and sexist remarks. It's not slowing down. People with well paying jobs, they worked all their lives to get, talk like this all the time as if it's completely normal. Which it obviously is. Then get fired.

It's so obvious how there's parallel worlds now. There's the media world of pretend speech where nobody says what they really are thinking. And the real world.

With the advent of the Internet normal people are training themselves to express themselves freely (like we're doing here). When normal people get catapulted into the world of fame and power they aren't always aware that now they need to stop talking like they normally talk.

I think it's absurd that we're demanding sports professionals to have gender and racial sensibilities that require a university degree to master. These are working class people who worked their way up in life. They're not academics. I think it's cruel and stupid to wreck their careers just because they make the mistake of just talking like normal people talk.

Whether or not the people who make these remarks are sexist or racist is anyone's guess. But I highly doubt working class people who use colorful language are literal at all times. Perhaps it's attempt at humour that fails. Or any other non-nefarious explanation. Or they really are racists and sexists? Is that so bad? It's just sports. If you are good at sports you do well. The racism of the organisers of competitions doesn't really matter. Does it? The Nazis failed to stop Jesse Owens from scoring big in 1936.

I think our insistence of ideologically perfect and pure speech is intellectual snobbery and contempt for the working class.

I don't like it. I don't think it's a good thing. I also don't think it will do much to stop racism or sexism. Can't sports be the one place in the world where we let people just be themselves in all their horrible glory? Just so we have one little zone where we get to hear what normal people really think.

What inspired this post? Is there a particular incident that you are thinking of?

I'm not really a sports fan myself, so what happens there is not of much consequence to me. But from what little I've seen, there doesn't seem to be much racism going on within a team or between teams. I see players of different races and backgrounds generally getting along, high fiving, hugging, patting each other on the back, celebrating victories together, consoling each other, etc. To me, sports seems to be more a positve example of how different people can get along. There are the occassional scuffles and fights, but those don't seem to be racially motivated. It used to be that being gay was something you had to hide (at least in male sports), but that seems to have gone by the wayside these days.

What pisses me off is woke shit getting interjected into sports (like it does with everything else). The woke media seems to be scrutinizing every little action to find something to be offended about, and then subsequently punish with reckless abandon. A good example is what happened to tennis commentator Doug Adler:

https://nypost.com/2020/01/25/espn-tennis-analyst-doug-adler-still-paying-for-absurd-racist-accusation/

You likely recall Adler, now 61, an ESPN tennis analyst, a walk-on All-American at USC, as the victim of ESPN’s and the New York Times’ preposterous prosecution of him as an unrestrained, on-air racist that led to his firing as he called the 2017 Australian Open.

That was the episode in which Adler complimented Venus Williams for her successful “guerilla” tactics in poaching the net. Guerilla-style tennis had become such a regularly spoken term that Nike starred Andre Agassi and Pete Sampras in a commercial playing “guerilla tennis.”

Just after Adler praised Williams’ guerilla tactics, Ben Rothenberg, a freelancer covering for the New York Times, recklessly tweeted that Adler had just racially slurred her as “a gorilla,” adding, “It’s horrifying that the Williams sisters have to be subjected to this in 2017.”

Its' one thing to basically upend someone's career, or life, because of a racist slur or a sexist comment... it's a punishment that doesn't fit the "crime". But it's a whole new level of absurdity and depravity when its done and the accuser is 100% in the wrong. And no one seems to care. Because social justice.

I see that you are extremely upset about unfairness and unfair accusations directed at a newscaster by an ignorant person who apparently does not understand the difference between guerrilla and gorilla. I do find such ignorance appalling as well and worse when it is taken up by others.

That is miniscule, trivial compared to the harm that is done to people every day by a society that tolerates them being referred to in terms that describe them as less than human, less than intelligent, unintelligent, demeaning, denigrating, dehumanizing, demoralizing. Words racial slurs, sexist slurs, anti- LGBTQ slurs, the R word that the Good Doctor used upthread--and others. All of those are also based upon ignorance--and a need and desire to relegate certain persons to a less than position. Which make it so much easier to structure society so that it treats certain persons as less worthy than others.

Like you, I'm not much of a sports fan but my husband and some of my sons are so sometimes I see/hear/hear about about matches. Rarely, if ever, is there any racially motivated animus between players on teams that I've observed or hear about. But it is not at all uncommon---and thoroughly disgusting that in some places (Europe) some 'fans' like to do things like throw bananas and banana peels at black soccer players.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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It was a rhetorical question.
Oh, you are talking about goalposts.
Why would anyone care what an athlete thinks about anything? It's retarded.
Whether you think it is "retarded" or not, clearly people care what athletes think. Some of them even went as far as shitting their pants when a number of athletes kneeled.
 

Politesse

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I think it's absurd that we're demanding sports professionals to have gender and racial sensibilities that require a university degree to master.
Why would it take a Master's Degree to remember not to use sexist and racial slurs at work? You want professional pay, learn to be a fucking professional. There's no reason a person in a position of well-copmpensated authority should need to go around insulting colleagues and employees in the first place, let alone using profanity and ethnic slurs to do so. I do have a Master's degree, but I don't recall ever taking a class on "not calling people names"; that was always taken as a given. If someone can't handle that most obvious of rules, I've no problem at all with their position being opened up for someone with a lick of common sense.

Are you honestly claiming that when you call someone "retarded" as you did earlier in this thread, that you have no idea this is a slur since you never got a Master's Degree in psychology? Is that, concretely, what you are claiming about your own IQ, that you are too witless to understand when you are insulting someone unless it has been slowly spelled out to you by a professor somewhere? I am not insulting your actual intelligence, merely questioning the wisdom what I believe to be a purely rhetorical tactic of feigning stupidity. I think that you are, in fact, smart enough to know that calling someone a retard while the cameras are rolling is a bad idea, and not because of the contents of your bank account of any degree you might hold. So no, I do not think it would be "elitist" to fire you for something any adult should have the common sense not to do.
 

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But it is not just sports. Endorsements and advertising is about image, idolization, and wanting to be like that star athlete. Up to a point athletes can still be assholes, they just won't be able to milk the endorsement gravy train...

No, it's just sports. Even if you idolise an athlete, it's not their brain or their thoughts you idolise
Yeah, it's more than just sports. Otherwise endorsements wouldn't exist. Personally I don't care about watching organized sports. Maybe all YOU get out of sports is 'the best of the best', but clearly the EWE are enamored by image and general idolizing.
 

TSwizzle

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It's funny how many sports officials keep getting deposed over racist and sexist remarks. It's not slowing down. People with well paying jobs, they worked all their lives to get, talk like this all the time as if it's completely normal. Which it obviously is. Then get fired.

I don’t know how often this actually happens, doesn’t seem very often. I can’t recall anything recent but may have missed it. Is there something specific you have in mind ? But in general, public figures, even sports figures need to mind their language. They can’t be dropping “n” bombs left and right. But I somewhat agree that the reaction can be over the top when someone says something off color and the Twitterati mob get mobilized to get them canceled.

I did see a headline about a German coach trying to motivate the German Olympic cycling team to “catch up with the camel herders” when referring to the Algerian cyclists in front. He probably got into a bit of bother for that.
 

Toni

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It's funny how many sports officials keep getting deposed over racist and sexist remarks. It's not slowing down. People with well paying jobs, they worked all their lives to get, talk like this all the time as if it's completely normal. Which it obviously is. Then get fired.

I don’t know how often this actually happens, doesn’t seem very often. I can’t recall anything recent but may have missed it. Is there something specific you have in mind ? But in general, public figures, even sports figures need to mind their language. They can’t be dropping “n” bombs left and right. But I somewhat agree that the reaction can be over the top when someone says something off color and the Twitterati mob get mobilized to get them canceled.

I did see a headline about a German coach trying to motivate the German Olympic cycling team to “catch up with the camel herders” when referring to the Algerian cyclists in front. He probably got into a bit of bother for that.

One would hope that he would get into a bit of bother.

Seriously. I've worked a lot of different jobs, including ones that all one needed to do is to be able to tell which part of a corn plant was the tassel and yank it off, along with a bunch of kids, all white, in a pretty non-PC area and time and nowhere was it EVER ok to use racial epithets. Not EVER. FFS, my dad was a class A bigot; my father's stepfather was in the KKK and definitely not above using the N word but woe would have been to me if I ever did. As a little child, I knew it wasn't acceptable even though I heard it from adults in my life occaisonally. In the rural mid-West. In the 60's. Even more so when we traveled down south. It just ain't that hard.
 

TSwizzle

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Here’s an old example (2012) of how over the top the reaction can be when a sportsman makes a flippant remark ;

Manchester United's Rio Ferdinand has been found guilty of improper conduct and fined £45,000 by the Football Association for comments on Twitter. An independent commission concluded Ferdinand's response to a tweet describing Chelsea's Ashley Cole as a "choc ice" did not make him a racist.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/18847477
 

Toni

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Here’s an old example (2012) of how over the top the reaction can be when a sportsman makes a flippant remark ;

Manchester United's Rio Ferdinand has been found guilty of improper conduct and fined £45,000 by the Football Association for comments on Twitter. An independent commission concluded Ferdinand's response to a tweet describing Chelsea's Ashley Cole as a "choc ice" did not make him a racist.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/18847477

Sure. Non racist people can say racist things.

I don't think it's a crime to be a racist nor do I think that being a racist should be a crime.

I don't think that thinking, writing or saying (or tweeting) racist things should be illegal.

I don't have a problem with people writing or saying or tweeting racist things facing consequences.
 

Toni

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Here’s an old example (2012) of how over the top the reaction can be when a sportsman makes a flippant remark ;

Manchester United's Rio Ferdinand has been found guilty of improper conduct and fined £45,000 by the Football Association for comments on Twitter. An independent commission concluded Ferdinand's response to a tweet describing Chelsea's Ashley Cole as a "choc ice" did not make him a racist.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/18847477

Also from the article you linked:

But it was ruled the centre-half had brought the game into disrepute.

"The commission found that the breach included a reference to ethnic origin, colour or race," read an FA statement.

Ferdinand was also warned as to his future conduct. Manchester United have decided not to appeal against the decision.

The United defender tweeted: "I hear you fella! Choc ice is classic hahahahahaha!!" in response to a message from @carltonEbanks which stated: "Looks like Ashley Cole's going to be their choc ice. Then again he's always been a sell out. Shame on him."

The term relates to the black and white nature of a choc ice and can imply someone is being black on the outside and white on the inside.

The tweet appeared on Ferdinand's timeline after Chelsea and England left-back Cole appeared in court as a defence witness for team-mate John Terry, who was cleared of racially abusing Ferdinand's younger brother, Anton, in a game against QPR on 23 October last year.
 

TSwizzle

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Sure. Non racist people can say racist things.

I don't think it's a crime to be a racist nor do I think that being a racist should be a crime.

I don't think that thinking, writing or saying (or tweeting) racist things should be illegal.

I don't have a problem with people writing or saying or tweeting racist things facing consequences.

Of course you don’t.
 

bigfield

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This thread: "I wish people weren't so touchy about racism and sexism."
 

ideologyhunter

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Decades of scandalous behavior by some sports pros have removed the gloss of heroism that pro athletes once had. That's healthy, I think. Or at least it's realistic. These are highly skilled entertainers, and at the top tier they are millionaires. The end. Who, today, expects a sports star to be a moral example?
One of my clearest memories from elementary school (because it vexed me so, as a fourth grader), was our gym teacher, Mr. Voiers, sitting us down on the gym floor before class started and telling us that we should start to learn about the big names in sports, because they were good examples to follow. (This would've been around 1963.) This little speech truly irritated me, because my perspective was, "I want to read about Davy Crockett and Abraham Lincoln. Who cares about football players!" You can tell I was a fairly nerdy fourth grader. I suppose there are gym teachers who make similar speeches today, but it's a tougher sell, because the perp rate in pro sports must be close to the one in the hiphop world.
 

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Decades of scandalous behavior by some sports pros have removed the gloss of heroism that pro athletes once had. That's healthy, I think. Or at least it's realistic. These are highly skilled entertainers, and at the top tier they are millionaires. The end. Who, today, expects a sports star to be a moral example?
One of my clearest memories from elementary school (because it vexed me so, as a fourth grader), was our gym teacher, Mr. Voiers, sitting us down on the gym floor before class started and telling us that we should start to learn about the big names in sports, because they were good examples to follow. (This would've been around 1963.) This little speech truly irritated me, because my perspective was, "I want to read about Davy Crockett and Abraham Lincoln. Who cares about football players!" You can tell I was a fairly nerdy fourth grader. I suppose there are gym teachers who make similar speeches today, but it's a tougher sell, because the perp rate in pro sports must be close to the one in the hiphop world.

Why would scandalous behavior remove the gloss of heroism from athletes? All a runner needs to do is run fast. No matter his behaviour, as long as he is fastest he will be a hero.

Idiots might transfer that accomplishment on other fields of life. But who cares what idiots think?
 

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Why would scandalous behavior remove the gloss of heroism from athletes?

Because that's what scandals do. Drug abuse, spousal abuse, nonsupport of children, sex scandals, etc. -- they absolutely remove that gloss. Note that I'm saying that's possibly a good thing. The hero worship that centered on Babe Ruth 100 years ago isn't the same kind of renown that Darryl Strawberry had. Can you have a hero whose behavior you hold to be odious, or who does time for drug use, etc.? Heroism is not the same thing as excelling at your sport. It was an extra presumed quality that my old gym teacher told us these "heroes" had.
 

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DrZoidberg

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Why would scandalous behavior remove the gloss of heroism from athletes?

Because that's what scandals do. Drug abuse, spousal abuse, nonsupport of children, sex scandals, etc. -- they absolutely remove that gloss. Note that I'm saying that's possibly a good thing. The hero worship that centered on Babe Ruth 100 years ago isn't the same kind of renown that Darryl Strawberry had. Can you have a hero whose behavior you hold to be odious, or who does time for drug use, etc.? Heroism is not the same thing as excelling at your sport. It was an extra presumed quality that my old gym teacher told us these "heroes" had.

This is one of those, "can you enjoy listening to Michael Jackson knowing what he has done" - discussions. I say yes. And you say no?

I don't need my heroes to be perfect. I need them to do one thing really well. Apart from that they can be horrific people.

I prefer people to be open about their flaws. And I want a society that forgives, or sees past, flaws.

It reminds me of the Soviet Union who just after the revolution put all the engineers to work on building Russias first electrical grid. They were successful. The problem was that these were all middle class and who had prospered under the Tsar and were not happy about the revolution.

When Stalin took power he had the most competent among them tried and executed. In their place he put newly graduated ideologicaly schooled engineers. This had predictable outcomes.

No matter what our mission is we are always best served by focusing on the goal and only caring about ideology when it's relevant. Ideology is not relevant for sports.
 

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I still think it's bullshit that sponsors are sensitive about stuff like that. It says something about our culture. How we demand ideological purity, no matter if it makes sense or not

I don't think it's a matter of ideological purity, I think it's a matter of decency. Pretty basic decency, really. I think it's a good thing that our culture demands that. We've placed a burden on ignorant people to filter their language so that we can collectively enjoy some peace and harmony. As far as I know that's a constant across all cultures.
 

thebeave

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Here’s an old example (2012) of how over the top the reaction can be when a sportsman makes a flippant remark ;

Manchester United's Rio Ferdinand has been found guilty of improper conduct and fined £45,000 by the Football Association for comments on Twitter. An independent commission concluded Ferdinand's response to a tweet describing Chelsea's Ashley Cole as a "choc ice" did not make him a racist.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/18847477

Sure. Non racist people can say racist things.

I don't think it's a crime to be a racist nor do I think that being a racist should be a crime.

I don't think that thinking, writing or saying (or tweeting) racist things should be illegal.

I don't have a problem with people writing or saying or tweeting racist things facing consequences.

What would you say are acceptable, fair consequences for people writing, saying or tweeting racist things?
 

Toni

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Sure. Non racist people can say racist things.

I don't think it's a crime to be a racist nor do I think that being a racist should be a crime.

I don't think that thinking, writing or saying (or tweeting) racist things should be illegal.

I don't have a problem with people writing or saying or tweeting racist things facing consequences.

What would you say are acceptable, fair consequences for people writing, saying or tweeting racist things?

I really think that it depends on the person. Ideally, someone saying grossly intolerant things would be called out in no uncertain terms and unfollowed/whatever that platform does. For those in forward facing positions, public figures, etc. need to be made to understand that making public statements promoting racist, sexist, intolerant views is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. Depending on the person and offense, that could be enough or it could mean actual suspension/loss of position, public apologies, lots of things.

As with most medications, the smallest effective dose is preferred.
 

thebeave

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Sure. Non racist people can say racist things.

I don't think it's a crime to be a racist nor do I think that being a racist should be a crime.

I don't think that thinking, writing or saying (or tweeting) racist things should be illegal.

I don't have a problem with people writing or saying or tweeting racist things facing consequences.

What would you say are acceptable, fair consequences for people writing, saying or tweeting racist things?

I really think that it depends on the person. Ideally, someone saying grossly intolerant things would be called out in no uncertain terms and unfollowed/whatever that platform does. For those in forward facing positions, public figures, etc. need to be made to understand that making public statements promoting racist, sexist, intolerant views is unacceptable and will not be tolerated. Depending on the person and offense, that could be enough or it could mean actual suspension/loss of position, public apologies, lots of things.

As with most medications, the smallest effective dose is preferred.

Let's say someone on this forum was repeatedly using racial slurs, intended in a demeaning, condescending manner. What the should the consequences be for this person?
 
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