The idea of 'Freedom' to some an echo of earlier times?

[marc]

I've been reading the manga Vinland Saga, a story set about 1,000 years ago in the time of Vikings. At the end of one of the books the author makes this observation:

In any text I consult, it always says that the Vikings loved freedom and hated control and restrictions. To them, freedom was something won and maintained by strength. There was no means to rule a Viking other than crushing him with military or economic force. "King" was just the title of the one who wielded the most power. On the flip side, this meant that those who were ruled over and lost their freedom suffered because they were too weak.
In a society where power is everything, it is a matter of fact that the weakest will be slaves. It was a shared cultural understanding that those who were too weak to protect their own freedom were at fault for their plight. There was no guilt or doubt about the strong enslaving, subordinating, selling, or killing the weak. That was just the culture they lived in. So how did the kindhearted live in such a culture? There must have been some who hated the meritocracy and the punishment of the weak. It must have been very painful to have such a large gap between the customs of society and one's own sensibilities. Did they have to keep their ideas secret, and restrict themselves to silently lamenting the plight of mistreated slaves without taking action? Such a person adrift in the culture of the time must have been nameless and penniless. In fact, perhaps the only people who felt that way would've been slaves themselves. Only the strong leave their names in history; the stories of such ordinary minorities are not saved over the centuries. That's one of the many bothersome aspects of history. I just want to know.

Reading that I see echoes of the attitude in people today. Right-wingers who hate any kind of control or restrictions, like being asked to wear a damn mask in the middle of a pandemic is an infringement on their 'freedom'. How they equate their 'freedom' with owning weapons. That they are the type who want a 'strongman' type of leader, and insult politicians they don't like as being weak, a cuck, 'low energy', etc.. Prosperity gospel that preaches that wealth is god's blessing, so if you are poor it is because you deserve to be, usually by being lazy. The victimized and oppressed deserve what they got, weather victims of, rape, police brutality, or other injustice, justifying their lack of sympathy or outrage.

Of course, these same people will cry to the heavens about injustice when they face even a shadow of the abuses they feel others are deserving of, which probably makes the Vikings morally superior to them.

I also think this type of 'freedom' is an illusion. If it is only maintained by strength and not by structures of society, then your freedom will quickly be taken away by the person who has amassed a stronger force, so only a few will have any real freedom.

 

[Trausti]

I’d say that the conservative view of freedom, at least in the US, is about limited government. The US is a continuance of English governance - not viking warlords. Understand English history and you understand the conservative position.

 

[repoman]

Our slaves are our descendants who will inherit a Mad Max wasteland.

Slaves permanently to our creature comforts now.

They just don't know it yet because they have not been born.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

I’d say that the conservative view of freedom, at least in the US, is about limited government. The US is a continuance of English governance - not viking warlords. Understand English history and you understand the conservative position.

In theory.... But some people abuse this idea of limited government. For example, CEOs of companies that pollute and hate regulation. Regulation BADDDDDDDDDD! Not to those who do not want you polluting their air and water. Day dreamer Libertarians who believe the government should take care of policing and not much else.

 

[prideandfall]

I’d say that the conservative view of freedom, at least in the US, is about limited government. The US is a continuance of English governance - not viking warlords. Understand English history and you understand the conservative position.

except this is a blatant and demonstrable lie, or being charitable a blatant and demonstrable delusion propped up by wishful thinking and rank hypocrisy.

the conservative view is not one of limited government at all, it is one of a giant omnipresent government that only does the most fucking idiotic things it's imaginable to do.
a bloated tick of a military, fascist dystopian police forces, corporate welfare, billion dollar contracts to companies for services nobody needs, government surveillance of citizens to monitor moral character or religious belief or being gay... these are all conservative values pushed through the government.

they don't want "freedom" they want control that rigidly adheres to their ideology.

 

[Trausti]

I’d say that the conservative view of freedom, at least in the US, is about limited government. The US is a continuance of English governance - not viking warlords. Understand English history and you understand the conservative position.

except this is a blatant and demonstrable lie, or being charitable a blatant and demonstrable delusion propped up by wishful thinking and rank hypocrisy.

the conservative view is not one of limited government at all, it is one of a giant omnipresent government that only does the most fucking idiotic things it's imaginable to do.
a bloated tick of a military, fascist dystopian police forces, corporate welfare, billion dollar contracts to companies for services nobody needs, government surveillance of citizens to monitor moral character or religious belief or being gay... these are all conservative values pushed through the government.

they don't want "freedom" they want control that rigidly adheres to their ideology.

You need help, dude.

 

[Playball40]

I’d say that the conservative view of freedom, at least in the US, is about limited government. The US is a continuance of English governance - not viking warlords. Understand English history and you understand the conservative position.

except this is a blatant and demonstrable lie, or being charitable a blatant and demonstrable delusion propped up by wishful thinking and rank hypocrisy.

the conservative view is not one of limited government at all, it is one of a giant omnipresent government that only does the most fucking idiotic things it's imaginable to do.
a bloated tick of a military, fascist dystopian police forces, corporate welfare, billion dollar contracts to companies for services nobody needs, government surveillance of citizens to monitor moral character or religious belief or being gay... these are all conservative values pushed through the government.

they don't want "freedom" they want control that rigidly adheres to their ideology.

You need help, dude.

Why? Because he speaks the truth?

 

[TSwizzle]

{snip}

the conservative view is not one of limited government at all, it is one of a giant omnipresent government that only does the most fucking idiotic things it's imaginable to do.{snip}
they don't want "freedom" they want control that rigidly adheres to their ideology.

Hilarious. Try living in California where dictator Newsom and his brown shirts rule by decree.

 

[Trausti]

You need help, dude.

Why? Because he speaks the truth?

Oh, yes. That’s the ticket.

 

[ZiprHead]

You need help, dude.

Why? Because he speaks the truth?

Oh, yes. That’s the ticket.

I notice you failed to dispute any on P&F's statement.

 

[prideandfall]

Hilarious. Try living in California where dictator Newsom and his brown shirts rule by decree.

how is this a relevant statement in response to what i said?
at issue is not whether or not liberals buy into a government that is active in regulation, the OP makes the bogus claim that conservative ideology seeks to have small, limited government.
this is patently false, and the existence of california is in no way a refutation of that.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

{snip}

the conservative view is not one of limited government at all, it is one of a giant omnipresent government that only does the most fucking idiotic things it's imaginable to do.{snip}
they don't want "freedom" they want control that rigidly adheres to their ideology.

Hilarious. Try living in California where dictator Newsom and his brown shirts rule by decree.

I am in Texas. Due to covid-19, I have groceries delivered, ordered online at the local Walmart. I am not allowed to get beer this way, or wine. I cannot order rum on line and have it shipped to me. Texas is run by the GOP. Small government touting GOP. We have big government nanny state rules all over the place. GOP is for small government? Don't make me laugh!

 

[TSwizzle]

I am in Texas. Due to covid-19, I have groceries delivered, ordered online at the local Walmart. I am not allowed to get beer this way, or wine. I cannot order rum on line and have it shipped to me. Texas is run by the GOP. Small government touting GOP. We have big government nanny state rules all over the place. GOP is for small government? Don't make me laugh!

Buying alcohol online is probably restricted due to not knowing the age of the buyer. It at least makes some sense, you don't want underage people buying liquor willy nilly. (In California, we can't self checkout at the store if we buy alcohol.) But there is nothing stopping you going to the store and buying it surely ?

 

[James Brown]

"Limited government." What does that mean, exactly? It's rather subjective. One woman's limited government is another man's autocracy.

For myself, freedom is not about an external condition that I cannot control, but an internal mindset which is absolutely in my control.

“Freedom isn’t the right or ability to do whatever you please. Freedom comes from understanding the limits of our own power and the natural limits set in place by divine providence. By accepting life’s limits and inevitabilities and working with them rather than fighting them, we become free. If, on the other hand, we succumb to our passing desires for things that aren’t in our control, freedom is lost.” -Epictetus

Epictetus was born a slave, and at one point had his leg broken by his master so that he limped for the rest of his life. His body may have been someone else's property, but his mind was his own, completely unfettered. Better than vice versa, in my view.

 

[marc]

Well on 'Limited Government' I can see that as a way of expressing "loved freedom and hated control and restrictions". The thing is in the case of both the Vikings and modern conservatives it would appear to be a very selfish desire. They want limited control and restrictions on themselves, but they don't care about the control and restrictions on others. The Viking loved freedom but had no problem with slavery for others. The 'Limited Government' conservatives want to be free of government regulations, but are fine with regulations against abortion clinics, the ability of liberals to protest, etc..

 

[Alcoholic Actuary]

{snip}

the conservative view is not one of limited government at all, it is one of a giant omnipresent government that only does the most fucking idiotic things it's imaginable to do.{snip}
they don't want "freedom" they want control that rigidly adheres to their ideology.

Hilarious. Try living in California where dictator Newsom and his brown shirts rule by decree.

I live here. It's fine. Most people who live here love it. What freedom do you wish you had that Newsom took away? Freedom to open an auto dealership that sells exclusively diesel trucks?

aa

 

[ZiprHead]

I am in Texas. Due to covid-19, I have groceries delivered, ordered online at the local Walmart. I am not allowed to get beer this way, or wine. I cannot order rum on line and have it shipped to me. Texas is run by the GOP. Small government touting GOP. We have big government nanny state rules all over the place. GOP is for small government? Don't make me laugh!

Buying alcohol online is probably restricted due to not knowing the age of the buyer. It at least makes some sense, you don't want underage people buying liquor willy nilly. (In California, we can't self checkout at the store if we buy alcohol.) But there is nothing stopping you going to the store and buying it surely ?

We can buy liquor in the self-checkout. The transaction pauses and the attendant approves the sale if you're of age.

 

[TSwizzle]

I am in Texas. Due to covid-19, I have groceries delivered, ordered online at the local Walmart. I am not allowed to get beer this way, or wine. I cannot order rum on line and have it shipped to me. Texas is run by the GOP. Small government touting GOP. We have big government nanny state rules all over the place. GOP is for small government? Don't make me laugh!

Buying alcohol online is probably restricted due to not knowing the age of the buyer. It at least makes some sense, you don't want underage people buying liquor willy nilly. (In California, we can't self checkout at the store if we buy alcohol.) But there is nothing stopping you going to the store and buying it surely ?

We can buy liquor in the self-checkout. The transaction pauses and the attendant approves the sale if you're of age.

It's possible they do that in some stores in California.

 

[marc]

We can buy liquor in the self-checkout. The transaction pauses and the attendant approves the sale if you're of age.

Went to an Amazon Go store once. You use your phone to get a barcode for your Amazon account when you go in, and there is no checkout. Cameras in the ceiling keep track of everything you pick up, and it charges your account when you leave. The employees pretty much just sock shelves and prepare food, with one guy who has to stand in the alcohol section.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I’d say that the conservative view of freedom, at least in the US, is about limited government. The US is a continuance of English governance - not viking warlords. Understand English history and you understand the conservative position.

except this is a blatant and demonstrable lie, or being charitable a blatant and demonstrable delusion propped up by wishful thinking and rank hypocrisy.

the conservative view is not one of limited government at all, it is one of a giant omnipresent government that only does the most fucking idiotic things it's imaginable to do.
a bloated tick of a military, fascist dystopian police forces, corporate welfare, billion dollar contracts to companies for services nobody needs, government surveillance of citizens to monitor moral character or religious belief or being gay... these are all conservative values pushed through the government.

they don't want "freedom" they want control that rigidly adheres to their ideology.

You need help, dude.

He's got a valid point. The freedom-demanding morons want the government to enforce their lifestyle.

Someone who truly was for freedom wouldn't care about the other guy's religion or sexuality.