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The Image Christians Have of People

Unknown Soldier

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We are told we are made in the image of God which I suppose is good. However, our being made in God's image doesn't keep us people from being really bad. Christianity tells us that we are all sinners falling short of God's glory. We simply cannot be trusted to make our own moral decisions and should trust God to make those decisions for us. In fact, "if there is no God, then everything is permitted." And of course, we sinful people will do that which should not be permitted!

As we are told in Psalm 14:

The fool says in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good.

2 The Lord looks down from heaven
on all mankind
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.

4 Do all these evildoers know nothing?

They devour my people as though eating bread;
they never call on the Lord.
5 But there they are, overwhelmed with dread,
for God is present in the company of the righteous.
6 You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor,
but the Lord is their refuge.

7 Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
When the Lord restores his people,
let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!
Are we really that bad?
 
We are told we are made in the image of God which I suppose is good. However, our being made in God's image doesn't keep us people from being really bad. Christianity tells us that we are all sinners falling short of God's glory. We simply cannot be trusted to make our own moral decisions and should trust God to make those decisions for us. In fact, "if there is no God, then everything is permitted." And of course, we sinful people will do that which should not be permitted!

As we are told in Psalm 14:

The fool says in his heart,
“There is no God.”
They are corrupt, their deeds are vile;
there is no one who does good.

2 The Lord looks down from heaven
on all mankind
to see if there are any who understand,
any who seek God.
3 All have turned away, all have become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.

4 Do all these evildoers know nothing?

They devour my people as though eating bread;
they never call on the Lord.
5 But there they are, overwhelmed with dread,
for God is present in the company of the righteous.
6 You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor,
but the Lord is their refuge.

7 Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion!
When the Lord restores his people,
let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!
Are we really that bad?
Once there was a president called Donald Trump. Once there was a political party that put private welfare above the public good. Once there were science deniers and liars who said cigarettes were good for you, and that global warming was a myth, and that covid-19 was nothing to worry about.

Are we really that bad? Yes!

God is the anthropomorphic representation of the notion of Good. The Devil is the same for the notion of Evil. Good and Evil are apparently quite real.

Oh, and why do people antagonistic to Christianity always quote the Old Testament?
 
The problem with the idea of good and evil isn’t that these things are not real; It’s that they are never exclusive.

The pure 100% good, (or pure 100% evil) individual is pure 100% myth.

“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”
- Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago
 
Oh, and why do people antagonistic to Christianity always quote the Old Testament?
Possibly because they disagree with some of the laws that are found in the Old Testament (not the New Testament) that Christians try to get enacted as our national or state laws.
 
The problem with the idea of good and evil isn’t that these things are not real; It’s that they are never exclusive.

The pure 100% good, (or pure 100% evil) individual is pure 100% myth.

“If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a piece of his own heart?”
- Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago
And that is why we do not label people as good and evil, but only label actions and intentions as good and evil. One of the principles of Christianity is that no one is beyond redemption. Even the worst sinner may become a saint through the Grace of God. That's why the New Testament has stories of the Prodigal Son and the Ninety-Nine sheep who were left to find the one that wandered away. In the church in which I was raised, a person comes to the alter to accept Jesus as his personal savior, and then, by grace, by study, and by example becomes a better person with a changed heart (good intentions replace evil intentions). It is this notion of redemption that motivates reforms in our prison systems, from one of punishment to one of rehabilitation.
 
Oh, and why do people antagonistic to Christianity always quote the Old Testament?
May have something to do with the fact that it is part of the Bible sitting on every pulpit of just about every Christian church, and being quoted from by Christian clergy and lay persons alike whenever it is deemed to support a Christian point of view, whatever that may be.

Also, the alleged Messiah is quoted in the New Testament that "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."

It's not as though Christian denominations are incapable to rip bits out of the Bible on the grounds that they don't suit their particular beliefs. The protestants deleted eleven of its books.
 
Oh, and why do people antagonistic to Christianity always quote the Old Testament?
May have something to do with the fact that it is part of the Bible sitting on every pulpit of just about every Christian church, and being quoted from by Christian clergy and lay persons alike whenever it is deemed to support a Christian point of view, whatever that may be.
Plus, most of Christian belief is straight out of the Old Testament:
. Seven days of creation, Adam and Eve, Noah's flood, Sodom and Gamora, Etc. Such Old Testament stories leads many Christians to deny evolution and demand that creationism be taught in public schools as well as many other OT stories they expect others to accept unquestionably.
 
Oh, and why do people antagonistic to Christianity always quote the Old Testament?
May have something to do with the fact that it is part of the Bible sitting on every pulpit of just about every Christian church, and being quoted from by Christian clergy and lay persons alike whenever it is deemed to support a Christian point of view, whatever that may be.
Plus, most of Christian belief is straight out of the Old Testament:
. Seven days of creation, Adam and Eve, Noah's flood, Sodom and Gamora, Etc. Such Old Testament stories leads many Christians to deny evolution and demand that creationism be taught in public schools as well as many other OT stories they expect others to accept unquestionably.
My mother said that "a thousand years is as a single day to God" to make the seven days of creation consistent with a million years of evolution. And we never relied on faith healing when we were ill. It was a very pragmatic faith in the Salvation Army. "God always answers our prayers, but sometimes the answer is No" and "God helps those who help themselves". Ironically, I think I was first exposed to Einstein's time dilation on a TV show by the Moody Bible Institute of Science. And one of the officer's brothers had experimented on deriving red dye from gold to show how Moses turned the golden idol to blood. So, I was raised believing that science and religion were not enemies.
 
Oh, and why do people antagonistic to Christianity always quote the Old Testament?
May have something to do with the fact that it is part of the Bible sitting on every pulpit of just about every Christian church, and being quoted from by Christian clergy and lay persons alike whenever it is deemed to support a Christian point of view, whatever that may be.
Plus, most of Christian belief is straight out of the Old Testament:
. Seven days of creation, Adam and Eve, Noah's flood, Sodom and Gamora, Etc. Such Old Testament stories leads many Christians to deny evolution and demand that creationism be taught in public schools as well as many other OT stories they expect others to accept unquestionably.
My mother said that "a thousand years is as a single day to God" to make the seven days of creation consistent with a million years of evolution. And we never relied on faith healing when we were ill. It was a very pragmatic faith in the Salvation Army. "God always answers our prayers, but sometimes the answer is No" and "God helps those who help themselves". Ironically, I think I was first exposed to Einstein's time dilation on a TV show by the Moody Bible Institute of Science. And one of the officer's brothers had experimented on deriving red dye from gold to show how Moses turned the golden idol to blood. So, I was raised believing that science and religion were not enemies.
Is that from the Old Testament, New Testament, or hand waving trying to paper over the testaments?
 
Oh, and why do people antagonistic to Christianity always quote the Old Testament?
May have something to do with the fact that it is part of the Bible sitting on every pulpit of just about every Christian church, and being quoted from by Christian clergy and lay persons alike whenever it is deemed to support a Christian point of view, whatever that may be.
Plus, most of Christian belief is straight out of the Old Testament:
. Seven days of creation, Adam and Eve, Noah's flood, Sodom and Gamora, Etc. Such Old Testament stories leads many Christians to deny evolution and demand that creationism be taught in public schools as well as many other OT stories they expect others to accept unquestionably.
My mother said that "a thousand years is as a single day to God" to make the seven days of creation consistent with a million years of evolution. And we never relied on faith healing when we were ill. It was a very pragmatic faith in the Salvation Army. "God always answers our prayers, but sometimes the answer is No" and "God helps those who help themselves". Ironically, I think I was first exposed to Einstein's time dilation on a TV show by the Moody Bible Institute of Science. And one of the officer's brothers had experimented on deriving red dye from gold to show how Moses turned the golden idol to blood. So, I was raised believing that science and religion were not enemies.
Is that from the Old Testament, New Testament, or hand waving trying to paper over the testaments?
Pragmatic Christianity.
 
It depmds on the Christian and the particular group.

When I was in an assited living facililty there wre two weekly Chrtians meetings. One met in our commuty room.

You coud hear the preacher ranting and screaming about the evil non believers. You can the ranting on some Chrtian TV and radio. Yiou can hear it on FOX, evil atheist science out to destroy religion.
 
My mother said that "a thousand years is as a single day to God" to make the seven days of creation consistent with a million years of evolution.
But that makes the seven days consistent with seven thousand years; A day would need to be half a billion years to god for this claim to bring the timeline anywhere close to reality. She was off by a factor of 500,000, which is no small difference.

And having papered over that one tiny crack, we find that all the rest of the problems remain - the creation story isn’t just a bit off, it’s completely useless as a description of anything real, even after you change it to say something it doesn’t say about timing.

Being nice to religious beliefs, because we don’t want to be nasty to people we love and respect, is utterly pernicious and corrosive to education.

People are not their beliefs; I am sure your parents were lovely human beings, but nevertheless they believed a bunch of stuff that was neither true nor useful (other than as a tribal marker, which is only useful as long as it is endemic, and even then only at the most selfish level).
 
Once there was a president called Donald Trump. Once there was a political party that put private welfare above the public good. Once there were science deniers and liars who said cigarettes were good for you, and that global warming was a myth, and that covid-19 was nothing to worry about.

Are we really that bad? Yes!

Yes, but those bad people represent a minority. I say give credit to those who oppose corporate welfare, those who promote sound science, those who exposed smoking as a health hazard, and those who have warned us of global warming and Covid.

God is the anthropomorphic representation of the notion of Good. The Devil is the same for the notion of Evil. Good and Evil are apparently quite real.

Good and evil exist subjectively.

Oh, and why do people antagonistic to Christianity always quote the Old Testament?

Because it's part of the Christian Bible. Why do you ask?
 
My mother said that "a thousand years is as a single day to God" to make the seven days of creation consistent with a million years of evolution.
But that makes the seven days consistent with seven thousand years; A day would need to be half a billion years to god for this claim to bring the timeline anywhere close to reality. She was off by a factor of 500,000, which is no small difference.

And having papered over that one tiny crack, we find that all the rest of the problems remain - the creation story isn’t just a bit off, it’s completely useless as a description of anything real, even after you change it to say something it doesn’t say about timing.

Being nice to religious beliefs, because we don’t want to be nasty to people we love and respect, is utterly pernicious and corrosive to education.

People are not their beliefs; I am sure your parents were lovely human beings, but nevertheless they believed a bunch of stuff that was neither true nor useful (other than as a tribal marker, which is only useful as long as it is endemic, and even then only at the most selfish level).
Stories and myths are used to provide moral lessons, just like a lot of literature today. The notion of God instills a positive outlook on life, a faith that the world is a good place, at least it is if we all help to make it so. Mother would do a felt board telling of "Pilgrim's Progress", where we are introduced to virtues and vices as characters in the story. So, there is some value to be gained from a religious upbringing, regardless where you end up later in life. I sometimes worry that people who miss out on this experience may not feel as morally anchored. In any case, every person who professes a belief in morality is a possible ally of every other like-minded person. We can work together for the common good without settling on a common theology.
 
Being nice to religious beliefs, because we don’t want to be nasty to people we love and respect, is utterly pernicious and corrosive to education.
Stories and myths are used to provide moral lessons, just like a lot of literature today. The notion of God instills a positive outlook on life, a faith that the world is a good place, at least it is if we all help to make it so. Mother would do a felt board telling of "Pilgrim's Progress", where we are introduced to virtues and vices as characters in the story. So, there is some value to be gained from a religious upbringing, regardless where you end up later in life. I sometimes worry that people who miss out on this experience may not feel as morally anchored. In any case, every person who professes a belief in morality is a possible ally of every other like-minded person. We can work together for the common good without settling on a common theology.


Marvin, it sounds like you are saying, “let’s talk about the nice christians and pretend the damaging and destructive ones don’t exist.”

Why would you be willing to pretend the damaging and destructive ones don’t exist? Why are you willing to give them cover and let them thrive and do ore damage?


I went to a work meeting last month, it was a panel discussion about the church in the Black community (Black History Month event). They started of with a person saying, “I truly believe that every Chrisian this side of heaaven owes the gospel to every atheist this side of hell.” (And then had some questions about how to get young people to want the church more)

That’s just one recent example of th kinds of things christianity does that you think we should pretend doesn’t happen.

I get that your parents were nice and pragmatic. But do you REALLY REALLY? think the destructive uses of the bible don’t exist and should not be addressed?
 
My mother said that "a thousand years is as a single day to God" to make the seven days of creation consistent with a million years of evolution.
But that makes the seven days consistent with seven thousand years; A day would need to be half a billion years to god for this claim to bring the timeline anywhere close to reality. She was off by a factor of 500,000, which is no small difference.

And having papered over that one tiny crack, we find that all the rest of the problems remain - the creation story isn’t just a bit off, it’s completely useless as a description of anything real, even after you change it to say something it doesn’t say about timing.

Being nice to religious beliefs, because we don’t want to be nasty to people we love and respect, is utterly pernicious and corrosive to education.

People are not their beliefs; I am sure your parents were lovely human beings, but nevertheless they believed a bunch of stuff that was neither true nor useful (other than as a tribal marker, which is only useful as long as it is endemic, and even then only at the most selfish level).
Stories and myths are used to provide moral lessons, just like a lot of literature today. The notion of God instills a positive outlook on life, a faith that the world is a good place, at least it is if we all help to make it so. Mother would do a felt board telling of "Pilgrim's Progress", where we are introduced to virtues and vices as characters in the story. So, there is some value to be gained from a religious upbringing, regardless where you end up later in life. I sometimes worry that people who miss out on this experience may not feel as morally anchored. In any case, every person who professes a belief in morality is a possible ally of every other like-minded person. We can work together for the common good without settling on a common theology.
There may be some benefit to being brought up in a religious home in some cases, but that wasn't the case for me. Religion gave my father, who suffered from mental illness, an excuse to beat us. Religion denied me the right to engage in some of the things that children enjoy, like dancing, and playing card games. Religion made me wonder why a god was so cruel that he would send people to an eternal hell for the simple mistake of not recognizing him. Religion made me worry about my Catholic friends who I was told were going to hell. Religion robbed me of my childhood Sundays, as they were spent in church from morning to evening with only small breaks for meals. '

I raised my son without religion, while allowing him to be mildly exposed to his father's religion. I never told him what to believe, but I did. teach him what was right and what was wrong. He is a better personl than most Christians I've known. He's a wonderful father and supportive husband. He's never hurt anyone or hated anyone. I believe that most children benefit from not being overly exposed to religion, assuming they have good parents and positive influences in their lives.

I love my mother, who at 96 suffers from advanced dementia. I've forgiven her for forcing religion on me, as I see her as a victim of harsh indoctrination when she was in her 20s. She preached to my father until he also bought into the conservative Christian cult. So, while you may have felt that you benefitted from a childhood full of religious mythology, please don't project that on the rest of us.

I believe that my sister was harmed emotionally from religion, although she still clings to it, like a drug. Liberal versions of religion may be harmless, but sadly, there are too many harsh, conservative forms of religion that poison children, before they are old enough to think independently.

Sure, there are some morality tales in religion, but it's not necessary to learn morality via religion. All a parent has to do is set a good example, if they want to try and raise a morally sound child, assuming the child isn't predisposed with a brain disorder that leaves them unable to experience empathy.

Christianity teaches that all one has to do is ask forgiveness and magically their sins will be forgiven. I don't see that as a positive way of teaching moral values. One should take responsibility for their actions instead of simply asking the magical entity known as god to forgive them.

I do agree that people with similar values should unite and put aside their differences concerning their beliefs. Character and moral values are what's important.
 
Being nice to religious beliefs, because we don’t want to be nasty to people we love and respect, is utterly pernicious and corrosive to education.
Stories and myths are used to provide moral lessons, just like a lot of literature today. The notion of God instills a positive outlook on life, a faith that the world is a good place, at least it is if we all help to make it so. Mother would do a felt board telling of "Pilgrim's Progress", where we are introduced to virtues and vices as characters in the story. So, there is some value to be gained from a religious upbringing, regardless where you end up later in life. I sometimes worry that people who miss out on this experience may not feel as morally anchored. In any case, every person who professes a belief in morality is a possible ally of every other like-minded person. We can work together for the common good without settling on a common theology.


Marvin, it sounds like you are saying, “let’s talk about the nice christians and pretend the damaging and destructive ones don’t exist.”

Why would you be willing to pretend the damaging and destructive ones don’t exist? Why are you willing to give them cover and let them thrive and do ore damage?


I went to a work meeting last month, it was a panel discussion about the church in the Black community (Black History Month event). They started of with a person saying, “I truly believe that every Chrisian this side of heaaven owes the gospel to every atheist this side of hell.” (And then had some questions about how to get young people to want the church more)

That’s just one recent example of th kinds of things christianity does that you think we should pretend doesn’t happen.

I get that your parents were nice and pragmatic. But do you REALLY REALLY? think the destructive uses of the bible don’t exist and should not be addressed?

I give no one cover who unnecessarily harms someone else. But I do consider prejudice and hate to be unnecessary harms regardless of ones religious beliefs. Not all Christians behave well. Not all Christians behave badly. The same applies to atheists.

On the topic of the thread, my mother loved hiking and went on many trips with groups from the Sierra Club. She met a man who she felt was a very good person. And she said she was surprised when he told her he was an atheist. I suppose that's the value of "coming out", in that you let people see you as a person, rather than a class. They became friends and she exchanged many letters with him over the years.
 
It depmds on the Christian and the particular group.

When I was in an assited living facililty there wre two weekly Chrtians meetings. One met in our commuty room.

You coud hear the preacher ranting and screaming about the evil non believers. You can the ranting on some Chrtian TV and radio. Yiou can hear it on FOX, evil atheist science out to destroy religion.
One of the reasons many Christian leaders defame atheists is to attempt to maintain the faith of their followers. So even if one of those followers has good reasons to doubt that God exists beyond human imagination, that follower won't want to risk taking on the stigma of being an avowed atheist.
 
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