The incredible Willful Ignorance of 1/6 denyers

[Elixir]

I find it incredible that anyone in the US who has any interest in the preservation of American democracy, has remained ignorant of the FACT of Donald Trump’s coup attempt. I don’t want to discuss specific posters’ willful ignorance, but rather the dynamic that enables it to persist in the face of clear, undeniable truth.

Organization and intent are necessary for it to qualify as a coup attempt though.

You did not watch - or didn’t understand -the hearings where intent and organization were demonstrated.
Your ignorance, however deep, is insufficient to dispel the facts.

This exchange is bothersome. The unidentified poster considers themself rational and informed. I am mystified.
How does this persist, and what if anything can or should be done about it?
“You can lead a whore to culture but you can’t make her think”
- Mae West(?)

 

[Jarhyn]

Education, and thoroughly remembering those who are incorrigibly bound to repeat lies in the face of easily verified truth so that we may turn away from, reject, and otherwise castigate those who refuse to drop such incorrigible lies, while offering the means to turn away from such easily exposed lies through education and acceptance of social behaviors.

 

[Elixir]

Education, and thoroughly remembering those who are incorrigibly bound to repeat lies in the face of easily verified truth so that we may turn away from, reject, and otherwise castigate those who refuse to drop such incorrigible lies, while offering the means to turn away from such easily exposed lies through education and acceptance of social behaviors.

And therein lies the rub.
Forcing “education” upon the unwilling and the witless would quickly become the very Orwellian establishment it was intended to prevent.
It is vexing indeed.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

People are manipulatable. This is not fixable. We can try and prevent things through education, but this is mitigation, not prevention. Covid and Jan 6th and even QAnon are evidence that some people will simply believe what they want to believe, while feeding at a trough full of excrement... complaining about how everyone else stinks. The odd thing is this seemed to be a trollish movement that forgot it was trolling.

It has been the most unfortunate of awakenings... of just how susceptible to fascism our nation is.

 

[Elixir]

People are manipulatable. This is not fixable.

What a ray of sunshine! If they’re easily manipulated, then it should be easy to manipulate them into accepting the goddam truth.

We can try and prevent things through education, but this is mitigation, not prevention.

Right … maybe the best we can do, but I don’t see it stemming the tide.

Covid and Jan 6th and even QAnon are evidence that some people will simply believe what they want to believe, while feeding at a trough full of excrement... complaining about how everyone else stinks. The odd thing is this seemed to be a trollish movement that forgot it was trolling.

It has been the most unfortunate of awakenings... of just how susceptible to fascism our nation is.

Agreed 100%. The best thing that could happen now would be an alien invasion. THAT might provide some unity of purpose. But some would side with the aliens, some would call it Godswill and some would wait to resist until their own family members were being eaten.
People suck.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

People are manipulatable. This is not fixable.

What a ray of sunshine! If they’re easily manipulated, then it should be easy to manipulate them into accepting the goddam truth.

It is easier and short-term fulfilling to be angry. Education and reading take time and not coming up with the accuracy of a preconceived notion leads to an unpleasant feeling. Especially when riled into a mini-frenzy. Even with the texts and emails from Fox News personalities about January 6th and Fox News in general... people are still slopping up their trash.

We can try and prevent things through education, but this is mitigation, not prevention.

Right … maybe the best we can do, but I don’t see it stemming the tide.

Covid and Jan 6th and even QAnon are evidence that some people will simply believe what they want to believe, while feeding at a trough full of excrement... complaining about how everyone else stinks. The odd thing is this seemed to be a trollish movement that forgot it was trolling.

It has been the most unfortunate of awakenings... of just how susceptible to fascism our nation is.

Agreed 100%. The best thing that could happen now would be an alien invasion. THAT might provide some unity of purpose. But some would side with the aliens, some would call it Godswill and some would wait to resist until their own family members were being eaten.
People suck.

Are you kidding me? Trump would sign up with the aliens and his alt-right fool supporters would start wearing shirts saying "Rather be a Xertian than a Liberal" asking "what is Soros hiding from the Xertians?"

 

[Elixir]

Trump would sign up with the aliens and his alt-right fool supporters would start wearing shirts saying "Rather be a Xertian than a Liberal" asking "what is Soros hiding from the Xertians?"

And libberpublicans would be telling us how the Xertians aren't that bad, if you didn't want your kids to be eaten you shouldn't have fattened them up so nicely, and besides, they didn't do as much property damage as BLM.

 

[Jarhyn]

Education, and thoroughly remembering those who are incorrigibly bound to repeat lies in the face of easily verified truth so that we may turn away from, reject, and otherwise castigate those who refuse to drop such incorrigible lies, while offering the means to turn away from such easily exposed lies through education and acceptance of social behaviors.

And therein lies the rub.
Forcing “education” upon the unwilling and the witless would quickly become the very Orwellian establishment it was intended to prevent.
It is vexing indeed.

Education is compulsory before 18, so we are already in that Orwellian establishment if that's the case.

More, I think that a diploma should come at the far end of a pass/fail course on identifying propaganda using historic examples. If someone cannot discern that an article makes a claim but fails to support it with more than emotion, I don't think it would be Orwellian to have a public recognition that they are not a reliable evaluator.

When someone is not a lawyer and evaluating a legal claim, for example, one is legally bound to indicate that they are not a lawyer.

I propose similarly, with a bar easily passed by highschool students, on the ability to discern basic propaganda from historic examples. When the people JUST ASKING QUESTIONS are legally bound to explain that they can't pass a highschool course for discernment of propaganda, or worse CAN and then produce and commonly boost propaganda anyway, there is little danger in either case. As in the former, we can observe their disclaimer that they are an idiot; in the latter we can observe that they are actually, beyond a reasonable doubt, lying propagandist.

Of course the real rub is that so many powerful people are either idiots or lying propagandists that there's no path to institution of such a system. They would generate propaganda for idiots to loudly scream against having to be recognized as idiots.

That and I spite of all that, unreliable evaluators still deserve the power to vote, and if they are at all evil, they will seek to hide their unreliable evaluations and vote towards measures of the same.

 

[RVonse]

I find it incredible that anyone in the US who has any interest in the preservation of American democracy, has remained ignorant of the FACT of Donald Trump’s coup attempt. I don’t want to discuss specific posters’ willful ignorance, but rather the dynamic that enables it to persist in the face of clear, undeniable truth.

Organization and intent are necessary for it to qualify as a coup attempt though.

You did not watch - or didn’t understand -the hearings where intent and organization were demonstrated.
Your ignorance, however deep, is insufficient to dispel the facts.

This exchange is bothersome. The unidentified poster considers themself rational and informed. I am mystified.
How does this persist, and what if anything can or should be done about it?
“You can lead a whore to culture but you can’t make her think”
- Mae West(?)

What should be equally bothersome to you is there obviously exist a complete lack of representation for so many pissed off people. That they decided they just had to do something (which looked pretty insane).
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/30/opinion/jan-6-committee-report.html

Rather than worry about convincing willful ignorance for your boogyman Trump, perhaps your time might better be served looking to the future and not the past. Seeking new direction for individual representation to make a comeback. Because without that, you can forget about your so called "preservation of American democracy". Here might be 2 examples to start the list:

1) Get rid of citizens united
2) Get rid of lobbying and congressmen bribary
3) Get rid of insider congressmen(women) trading. Make them follow the same laws they give to us
4) Get us out of globalism and fake wars..

Ooops... I put 4 on the list because I just could not stop and hold myself back on the real problems so common ALL individuals, both left and right. Problems not getting fixed by either party BTW.

 

[marc]

It is more understandable if you learn about how cults maintain control over people. The best control is conditioning with stop-think methods. They are taught that these sources over here (higher ups in the cult, sympathizers) are valid sources of information, while those other sources (mainstream media, anyone critical of the cult, etc.) are full of lies and misinformation. If you present them with any factual information, as soon as they learn or suspect it is from an 'invalid' source, the thinking stops, the facts are dismissed as wrong and anything else from them is ignored.

Most, if not all of these people probably never watched a second of the Jan 6 hearings, and only listened to what their 'valid' sources told them about it. They think they are being rational and reasonable. They view it the same way as we view ignoring whatever FOX or OANN spout. You are unlikely to convince them by presenting facts. What can work is questioning them, in a way that when they think of an answer they end up in contradictions or absurdities.

Spoiler: Video of Beau talking about someone trying to convince a relative of FOX lies

Let's talk about Fox, quotes, and a father-in-law....

Support via Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/beautfcThe Roads with Beau: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC_x7nc3Vi4BPgmNnMsz774ACheck out the store. Sticker...

youtu.be

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

What should be equally bothersome to you is there obviously exist a complete lack of representation for so many pissed off people.

Do pissed off people vote? I guess it isn't considered democracy unless I win.

 

[Jarhyn]

What should be equally bothersome to you is there obviously exist a complete lack of representation for so many pissed off people.

Do pissed off people vote? I guess it isn't considered democracy unless I win.

Of course! Everyone wants to win after all, and if you can't win by being with everyone or convincing everyone to be with you honestly, you can just lie!
/S

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Trump would sign up with the aliens and his alt-right fool supporters would start wearing shirts saying "Rather be a Xertian than a Liberal" asking "what is Soros hiding from the Xertians?"

And libberpublicans would be telling us how the Xertians aren't that bad, if you didn't want your kids to be eaten you shouldn't have fattened them up so nicely, and besides, they didn't do as much property damage as BLM.

The number of children getting eaten by Xertians is being over-reported by both hospitals and people with agendas. Being eaten by a Xertian is no more likely than being eaten by a bear.

 

[Elixir]

Most, if not all of these people probably never watched a second of the Jan 6 hearings, and only listened to what their 'valid' sources told them about it. They think they are being rational and reasonable. They view it the same way as we view ignoring whatever FOX or OANN spout.

Well that’s a bitch. I view OAN and FOX as lying propaganda outlets, not because someone told me so, but because I HAVE LISTENED TO THEM. Their captive audience lives in truth deserts. They believe MSM and anyone not parroting the latest Orwellian Trumpism is lying, because FOX & friends told them so.

1) Get rid of citizens united

That would solve a lot of our ills, but you probably wouldn’t like the evisceration of the financial arm of the GQP. I find it interesting that you would advocate against the very thing that has given rise to fascism and its Trumpist manifestation. The last thing we should do though, is cater to the emotional tantrums of people who are pissed off that their guy lost, and have bought into the Big Lie that the election had to be fraudulent because THEY LOST.

 

[TomC]

What should be equally bothersome to you is there obviously exist a complete lack of representation for so many pissed off people.

Could you explain what you mean here a little better?

"Complete lack of representation for so many pissed off people"?

I am no fan of the EC. But all the people in the Capitol trying to overturn that fundamental U.S. institution have as much representation as anyone else. More, generally, being white folks.

I see them as anti-American operatives. They are more dangerous than the 9/11 hijackers because they had top level U.S. government officials backing them up.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I find it incredible that anyone in the US who has any interest in the preservation of American democracy, has remained ignorant of the FACT of Donald Trump’s coup attempt. I don’t want to discuss specific posters’ willful ignorance, but rather the dynamic that enables it to persist in the face of clear, undeniable truth.

Organization and intent are necessary for it to qualify as a coup attempt though.

You did not watch - or didn’t understand -the hearings where intent and organization were demonstrated.
Your ignorance, however deep, is insufficient to dispel the facts.

This exchange is bothersome. The unidentified poster considers themself rational and informed. I am mystified.
How does this persist, and what if anything can or should be done about it?
“You can lead a whore to culture but you can’t make her think”
- Mae West(?)

What should be equally bothersome to you is there obviously exist a complete lack of representation for so many pissed off people. That they decided they just had to do something (which looked pretty insane).
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/30/opinion/jan-6-committee-report.html

They were riled up into a frenzy by QAnon and the "boogieman" Trump with relentless postings about an election being stolen, yet going into court overly nearly 0 actual claims of election or voter fraud. They were angry and pissed off because they wanted to be.

Rather than worry about convincing willful ignorance for your boogyman Trump, perhaps your time might better be served looking to the future and not the past.

Can't, the party of the GOP seems quite content on eliminating taxes for corporations and the wealthy, making us proles have to work till we die, and forcing newly pregnant women to have to give birth. The GOP has two sides, bat shit insane and religious radicals. They don't care about us.

 

[Elixir]

More, generally, being white folks.

And even more, being largely rural.
Yes, those pissed off believers in the Big Lie are already heavily overrepresented in federal government.

 

[RVonse]

What should be equally bothersome to you is there obviously exist a complete lack of representation for so many pissed off people.

Do pissed off people vote? I guess it isn't considered democracy unless I win.

When the government is basically working for all the people, then the outcome of the vote is not so important. For example, Ross Perot was more or less the populist figure represented in the 1980's. But when Perot lost, his base who lost still trusted government could function on their behalf because (at that time) our government was not quite so fucked up yet. Today there is complete lack of trust of both parties and (like it not) Trump was the only viable way to fix those issues.

 

[Toni]

What should be equally bothersome to you is there obviously exist a complete lack of representation for so many pissed off people.

Do pissed off people vote? I guess it isn't considered democracy unless I win.

When the government is basically working for all the people, then the outcome of the vote is not so important. For example, Ross Perot was more or less the populist figure represented in the 1980's. But when Perot lost, his base who lost still trusted government could function on their behalf because (at that time) our government was not quite so fucked up yet. Today there is complete lack of trust of both parties and (like it not) Trump was the only viable way to fix those issues.

What should be equally bothersome to you is there obviously exist a complete lack of representation for so many pissed off people.

Do pissed off people vote? I guess it isn't considered democracy unless I win.

When the government is basically working for all the people, then the outcome of the vote is not so important. For example, Ross Perot was more or less the populist figure represented in the 1980's. But when Perot lost, his base who lost still trusted government could function on their behalf because (at that time) our government was not quite so fucked up yet. Today there is complete lack of trust of both parties and (like it not) Trump was the only viable way to fix those issues.

HOW on earth could any rational person believe that TRUMP could fix any issue? Serious question. I genuinely do not understand your statement.

 

[Elixir]

when Perot lost, his base who lost still trusted government could function on their behalf because (at that time) our government was not quite so fucked up yet.

Perot had not been promising a stolen election for months prior to the election, did not conspire to submit fake electors from States he lost, did not invite a mob to the Capitol to violently prevent the certification of his electoral loss ...
You ALMOST put your finger on it; the government became this fucked up when your Boy Trump the mobster/racketeer, intentionally fucked it up to try to retain power.