• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

The most informed voters are often the most badly misled

Perspicuo

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2011
Messages
1,289
Location
Costa Rica
Basic Beliefs
Empiricist, ergo agnostic
Why the most informed voters are often the most badly misled
http://www.vox.com/2015/6/8/8740897/informed-voters-may-not-be-better-voters

If that sounds a bit odd to you, then read Daniel Foster's argument against Clinton's idea, which lays the objection bare: "the people who can’t be bothered to register (as opposed to those who refuse to vote as a means of protest) are, except in unusual cases, civic idiots." And who wants civic idiots choosing our next president?

I'd say: "What part of 'democracy' do you not understand? You do realize, I hope, that the people who voted were the ones who voted for G.W.Bush --twice; the second time after he helped sink the economy to unbelievable levels."

More information doesn't always mean better conclusions.

[...]
It gets worse: Republicans [during the Clinton administration] in the 60th percentile of political knowledge were less likely to answer the question correctly than Republicans in 10th percentile of political knowledge — which suggests that at least some of what we learn as we become more politically informed is how to mask our partisanship by spouting things that sound that like facts, but often aren't:

[graph]

See also (the study): http://www.princeton.edu/~bartels/thinking.pdf
 
Very good article.

Essentially, political information works the exact opposite of the scientific method. In science, you constantly seek to disprove your own theories. In politics, you exclude any information that conflicts with your own theories. It creates a never ending circle of confirmation bias. "I'm right because the facts agree with me. How do I know these are the facts? Because a trustworthy source told me. How do I know they are trustworthy? Because they agree with me."
 
Maybe I am misunderstanding, but I get different takeaway from the linked research article. From my reading, it suggests that overall the more informed people's perceptions of issues are more impacted by partisan bias, however they are also much more informed by the objective realities and facts about those issues. For example, look at Figures 6 and 7. Compare people at the 80% percentile of being politically informed vs. people at the 20% percentile. The more informed people have perceptions that are twice as much impacted by bias (a regression weight of .20 vs. .10). However, they also have a perception that is 6 times more impacted by "reality" (a weight of .60 vs. .10).
Thus, uniformed people give about equal weight to reality and bias (both .10) with most of their perception being random error and noise due to ignorance and/or stupidity. Informed people show more bias than the uninformed, but they give 3 times more weight to reality than they due to bias (.60 vs. .20) and have a lot less random error in their views.
 
Automatic registration is a half-arsed non-fix for the problem of non-deliberate non-participation.

If you are serious about democracy, you need mandatory attendance at the ballot.

People shouldn't have to cast a valid ballot, and it would be incompatible with a secret ballot to prevent them from not voting. But they should have to show up - even if their choice having done so is to cast a blank ballot.

Anything else falls short of democracy, by elevating the opinions of the enthusiasts above those of the apathetic majority.
 
Automatic registration is a half-arsed non-fix for the problem of non-deliberate non-participation.

If you are serious about democracy, you need mandatory attendance at the ballot.

People shouldn't have to cast a valid ballot, and it would be incompatible with a secret ballot to prevent them from not voting. But they should have to show up - even if their choice having done so is to cast a blank ballot.

Anything else falls short of democracy, by elevating the opinions of the enthusiasts above those of the apathetic majority.


It isn't clear that full participation is a defining feature of "democracy", but regardless there is nothing inherently positive about that or about democracy itself.
As the founders understood and often spoke about, all the positive fruits of government determined "by the people" rest in those people being informed and in making rational choices based upon how their interests are served by the factual realities and how the proposed policies would actually impact those realities.
Without the application of reason to accurate information, a "vote" is just a random act or and act emotionally manipulated by other agents. Thus, it fails to serve either of the two basic positive roles that voting can serve, which are 1) to allow people to protect their interests (which cannot be done if they lack knowledge of how the policies impact their interests), and 2) to ensure that policies best serve the collective good by having as many people as possible rationally evaluate their past and potential impacts (much like a scientific peer review process improves the validity of theories.

Adding uninformed or apathetic voters actually harms both of these purposes and thus lowers any positive value of a democratic system. Doing so not only makes the resulting policies less in service of the public good, it actually makes it less likely that they will serve the interests specifically of those uninformed or apathetic voters. Because such voters are more likely to be swayed by unreasonable emotional appeals, than facts and reason, their impact via voting makes policies that superficially appeal to emotions but not actually advance their or most people's interests and well being.
 
Automatic registration is a half-arsed non-fix for the problem of non-deliberate non-participation.

If you are serious about democracy, you need mandatory attendance at the ballot.

People shouldn't have to cast a valid ballot, and it would be incompatible with a secret ballot to prevent them from not voting. But they should have to show up - even if their choice having done so is to cast a blank ballot.

Anything else falls short of democracy, by elevating the opinions of the enthusiasts above those of the apathetic majority.

Nah, no blank ballots. You have to vote, but "abstain" is always an option on any given question. Also, throw in some simple questions of fact (say, Which is the most common means to get to work: Tree, horse, car, helicopter) to make people read the questions. Don't show up at the polls, you get fined. Your ballot will only be accepted if you get the questions right or after you have tried for an hour. (But any ballot that doesn't get the questions of fact right is deemed a spoiled ballot.) That way voting is easier than not voting.
 
Automatic registration is a half-arsed non-fix for the problem of non-deliberate non-participation.

If you are serious about democracy, you need mandatory attendance at the ballot.

People shouldn't have to cast a valid ballot, and it would be incompatible with a secret ballot to prevent them from not voting. But they should have to show up - even if their choice having done so is to cast a blank ballot.

Anything else falls short of democracy, by elevating the opinions of the enthusiasts above those of the apathetic majority.


It isn't clear that full participation is a defining feature of "democracy", but regardless there is nothing inherently positive about that or about democracy itself.
As the founders understood and often spoke about, all the positive fruits of government determined "by the people" rest in those people being informed and in making rational choices based upon how their interests are served by the factual realities and how the proposed policies would actually impact those realities.
Without the application of reason to accurate information, a "vote" is just a random act or and act emotionally manipulated by other agents. Thus, it fails to serve either of the two basic positive roles that voting can serve, which are 1) to allow people to protect their interests (which cannot be done if they lack knowledge of how the policies impact their interests), and 2) to ensure that policies best serve the collective good by having as many people as possible rationally evaluate their past and potential impacts (much like a scientific peer review process improves the validity of theories.

Adding uninformed or apathetic voters actually harms both of these purposes and thus lowers any positive value of a democratic system. Doing so not only makes the resulting policies less in service of the public good, it actually makes it less likely that they will serve the interests specifically of those uninformed or apathetic voters. Because such voters are more likely to be swayed by unreasonable emotional appeals, than facts and reason, their impact via voting makes policies that superficially appeal to emotions but not actually advance their or most people's interests and well being.

I disagree that apathetic voters are more likely to be swayed by unreasonable emotional appeals than facts and reason. It may very well be the case that an understanding of the facts is precisely what made them apathetic in the first place.
 
It isn't clear that full participation is a defining feature of "democracy", but regardless there is nothing inherently positive about that or about democracy itself.
As the founders understood and often spoke about, all the positive fruits of government determined "by the people" rest in those people being informed and in making rational choices based upon how their interests are served by the factual realities and how the proposed policies would actually impact those realities.
Without the application of reason to accurate information, a "vote" is just a random act or and act emotionally manipulated by other agents. Thus, it fails to serve either of the two basic positive roles that voting can serve, which are 1) to allow people to protect their interests (which cannot be done if they lack knowledge of how the policies impact their interests), and 2) to ensure that policies best serve the collective good by having as many people as possible rationally evaluate their past and potential impacts (much like a scientific peer review process improves the validity of theories.

Adding uninformed or apathetic voters actually harms both of these purposes and thus lowers any positive value of a democratic system. Doing so not only makes the resulting policies less in service of the public good, it actually makes it less likely that they will serve the interests specifically of those uninformed or apathetic voters. Because such voters are more likely to be swayed by unreasonable emotional appeals, than facts and reason, their impact via voting makes policies that superficially appeal to emotions but not actually advance their or most people's interests and well being.

I disagree that apathetic voters are more likely to be swayed by unreasonable emotional appeals than facts and reason. It may very well be the case that an understanding of the facts is precisely what made them apathetic in the first place.

Reason requires time, effort, and very deliberate cognitive processing, and thus motivation to bother engaging in it. By definition, apathetic voters lack such interest and motivation. Thus, they are more likely to take the easiest route to a decision, which is always emotional reactivity and the highly biased and error prone outputs of automatic forms of information processing. They are not the only emotional voters. Plenty if not most highly interested voters vote via emotion and biased thinking, but interest and motivation are neccessary prerequisites to even begin to form and informed and reasoned opinion. Thus, adding apathetic voters can only increase the % of voters that are uninformed and/or don't care enough to apply reason to the information they have, and thus will make either random or emotional choices.
 
Reason requires time, effort, and very deliberate cognitive processing, and thus motivation to bother engaging in it. By definition, apathetic voters lack such interest and motivation. Thus, they are more likely to take the easiest route to a decision, which is always emotional reactivity and the highly biased and error prone outputs of automatic forms of information processing. They are not the only emotional voters. Plenty if not most highly interested voters vote via emotion and biased thinking, but interest and motivation are neccessary prerequisites to even begin to form and informed and reasoned opinion. Thus, adding apathetic voters can only increase the % of voters that are uninformed and/or don't care enough to apply reason to the information they have, and thus will make either random or emotional choices.

Care to support any of the generalizations you put in this post? If not why are you posting?

For instance what say you to the proposition that an individual well practiced in reasoning uses it as one would use a reflex.
 
I disagree that apathetic voters are more likely to be swayed by unreasonable emotional appeals than facts and reason. It may very well be the case that an understanding of the facts is precisely what made them apathetic in the first place.

Reason requires time, effort, and very deliberate cognitive processing, and thus motivation to bother engaging in it. By definition, apathetic voters lack such interest and motivation. Thus, they are more likely to take the easiest route to a decision, which is always emotional reactivity and the highly biased and error prone outputs of automatic forms of information processing. They are not the only emotional voters. Plenty if not most highly interested voters vote via emotion and biased thinking, but interest and motivation are neccessary prerequisites to even begin to form and informed and reasoned opinion. Thus, adding apathetic voters can only increase the % of voters that are uninformed and/or don't care enough to apply reason to the information they have, and thus will make either random or emotional choices.

We could be getting hung up on words. I took your original statement about "apathetic voters" to be about people who are apathetic about voting. You seem to be using it to mean people who vote, who are apathetic about everything. Obviously if someone has no motivation whatsoever, they aren't helping matters by voting. But it's easy to imagine people who are extremely motivated to learn the facts and reasons behind our political system, and having done so, conclude that their voting is not a strategy likely to bring about meaningful change. I'm apathetic about voting because I know that our electoral system is highly inefficient and easily corrupted by monied interests. If I got all my talking points from AM radio comedians, maybe that information wouldn't prevent me from caring enough to vote in a Presidential election. But knowing what I know about campaigns and how they're financed, and how meaningless my contributions are on a first-past-the-post ballot, I have become apathetic about voting due to my understanding of these matters. Emotional appeals have no effect on compelling me to vote for President; in fact, literally the only thing that would make me do it is the possibility that my home state will not vote ~80% Democrat as it always has. So, to your original point, the time, effort, and cognitive processing that I devote to educating myself about American politics is why I can't be bothered to devote any time or effort to voting for President, except under very narrow circumstances.
 
Adding uninformed or apathetic voters actually harms both of these purposes and thus lowers any positive value of a democratic system. Doing so not only makes the resulting policies less in service of the public good, it actually makes it less likely that they will serve the interests specifically of those uninformed or apathetic voters. Because such voters are more likely to be swayed by unreasonable emotional appeals, than facts and reason, their impact via voting makes policies that superficially appeal to emotions but not actually advance their or most people's interests and well being.

I disagree that apathetic voters are more likely to be swayed by unreasonable emotional appeals than facts and reason. It may very well be the case that an understanding of the facts is precisely what made them apathetic in the first place.
Quite so. Further, natural apathy is likely to confer a degree of resistance to emotional appeals that more involved people lack. So even when an apathetic voter is swayed more by unreasonable emotional appeals than facts and reason, he's likely to be swayed less by unreasonable emotional appeals than a highly involved voter is. So is being ignorant a worse trait in a voter than being manipulable?

Moreover, being an uninformed voter isn't an independent variable. Well-informed voters are also more likely to be swayed by unreasonable emotional appeals than facts and reason, and probably to an even greater degree than uninformed voters are, precisely because susceptibility to unreasonable emotional appeals is one of the chief causes of people believing strongly enough in a controversial political cause to go to the effort of informing themselves; the article gave the example of 9/11 truthers. To conclude that informed voters are more swayed by facts and reason merely because being swayed by facts and reason relies on being informed is to reverse cause and effect.
 
It isn't clear that full participation is a defining feature of "democracy", but regardless there is nothing inherently positive about that or about democracy itself.
As the founders understood and often spoke about, all the positive fruits of government determined "by the people" rest in those people being informed and in making rational choices based upon how their interests are served by the factual realities and how the proposed policies would actually impact those realities.
Without the application of reason to accurate information, a "vote" is just a random act or and act emotionally manipulated by other agents. Thus, it fails to serve either of the two basic positive roles that voting can serve, which are 1) to allow people to protect their interests (which cannot be done if they lack knowledge of how the policies impact their interests), and 2) to ensure that policies best serve the collective good by having as many people as possible rationally evaluate their past and potential impacts (much like a scientific peer review process improves the validity of theories.
But there is something inherently positive about democracy itself; and a vote, even without the application of reason to accurate information, still serves the most important basic positive role that voting can serve, which is 3) to measure how many people would be on each side in the event that the social choice to be made were to be determined by a fight instead of a vote, and thereby to provide a rough-and-ready prediction of who would win the fight.

Army Officer:
You at the barricade listen to this!
No one is coming to help you to fight
You're on your own
You have no friends
Give up your guns - or die!

Enjolras:
Damn their warnings, damn their lies
They will see the people rise!

Students:
Damn their warnings, damn their lies
They will see the people rise!

Les Miserables​

Democracy reduces civil war by preventing disaffected zealots from deluding themselves into thinking the people are with them and are just waiting for a spark.
 
Informed? I think that word is not being used correctly here.
Agreed.

My observation is that the overwhelming majority of people think an "informed person" is one that agrees with them, the uninformed being those who disagree with them.

I have seen very few of the faithful among either the Democrats or Republicans who can be swayed from their opinion on an issue even when given sufficient evidence (facts) to demonstrate that they are using emotion rather than reason. They believe they are informed because they have listened to all the bias confirming speeches by the leadership of their party..
 
Informed? I think that word is not being used correctly here.
Agreed.

My observation is that the overwhelming majority of people think an "informed person" is one that agrees with them, the uninformed being those who disagree with them.

I have seen very few of the faithful among either the Democrats or Republicans who can be swayed from their opinion on an issue even when given sufficient evidence (facts) to demonstrate that they are using emotion rather than reason. They believe they are informed because they have listened to all the bias confirming speeches by the leadership of their party..

I agree that an informed person is like me. A person who doesn't edit, doesn't use spell check, doesn't construct proper sentences, but, is one who reads voraciously and conducts valid experiments. Other than that what does partisanship have to do with whether one is informed?
 
Reason requires time, effort, and very deliberate cognitive processing, and thus motivation to bother engaging in it. By definition, apathetic voters lack such interest and motivation. Thus, they are more likely to take the easiest route to a decision, which is always emotional reactivity and the highly biased and error prone outputs of automatic forms of information processing. They are not the only emotional voters. Plenty if not most highly interested voters vote via emotion and biased thinking, but interest and motivation are neccessary prerequisites to even begin to form and informed and reasoned opinion. Thus, adding apathetic voters can only increase the % of voters that are uninformed and/or don't care enough to apply reason to the information they have, and thus will make either random or emotional choices.

Care to support any of the generalizations you put in this post? If not why are you posting?

For instance what say you to the proposition that an individual well practiced in reasoning uses it as one would use a reflex.

I'd say that the entire field of cognitive science over the last 40 years shows that reason always requires more time and effort than emotional and biased responding. Reason is by definition a process of considering as much logically relevant information as possible and evaluating it in terms of its evidential support for as many alternative ideas as can be plausibly considered. That process inherently takes time, and has virtually zero properties in common with what could be labeled a "reflex", which in contrast emotions and biased thinking has much in common with. Hundreds of experiments show that when people either "rush" their judgments or are mentally taxed with thinking about other things, their decision outcomes are more greatly predicted by their a priori determined emotional biases and/or things like prejudices and stereotypes, or other common reasoning biases like presuming that the most familiar sounding answer is the correct one, etc..
Whether among average people or experts in logic and scientific reasoning, the less time and direct conscious attention they give to a decision process, the less their decision conforms to the rules of valid logic and application of relevant knowledge and the more it is shaped by current emotional states, learned emotional associations, and what are called "fast-and-frugal" heuristics.
 
Reason requires time, effort, and very deliberate cognitive processing, and thus motivation to bother engaging in it. By definition, apathetic voters lack such interest and motivation. Thus, they are more likely to take the easiest route to a decision, which is always emotional reactivity and the highly biased and error prone outputs of automatic forms of information processing. They are not the only emotional voters. Plenty if not most highly interested voters vote via emotion and biased thinking, but interest and motivation are neccessary prerequisites to even begin to form and informed and reasoned opinion. Thus, adding apathetic voters can only increase the % of voters that are uninformed and/or don't care enough to apply reason to the information they have, and thus will make either random or emotional choices.

We could be getting hung up on words. I took your original statement about "apathetic voters" to be about people who are apathetic about voting. You seem to be using it to mean people who vote, who are apathetic about everything. Obviously if someone has no motivation whatsoever, they aren't helping matters by voting. But it's easy to imagine people who are extremely motivated to learn the facts and reasons behind our political system, and having done so, conclude that their voting is not a strategy likely to bring about meaningful change.

No, I am not referring to people who don't care about anything. I am referring just to people who don't care enough about the impact of their voting to vote. Becoming informed and then applying that knowledge at the time of voting don't just happen naturally, it takes immense effort and vigilance that requires a strong source of motivation. Non-voters fall into 4 general categories, only one of which are the group you refer to. First, there are the people who don't know whether there is any impact, they just don't want to bother voting. Given that the immense effort to get informed and apply that knowledge to voting is largely motivated by the same desire to have a impact that would motivate voting itself, there is zero motive for these non-voters to have become informed in the first place or apply that knowledge if you coerce them to vote. The second group are people who believe there is an impact, but just don't care about having that impact, just like I believe in the impact of exercise but don't care enough to actually do it. Just like the first group, they have no motive to put forth the effort to become informed or apply that info to voting. Third, there are the people that based mostly on ideology and unreasoned pessimism believe their is no impact of voting, so they don't bother. Since their belief in the non-impact of voting is not itself informed, their resulting non-voting cannot be informed. Finally, there are your noble abstainers who made an effort to inform themselves apply it to the options, then decided their was no impact so they don't vote. But, once they decide their is no impact, what is their motive to stay informed and apply that knowledge each election to decide if any realities have changed that make a vote impactful? I'd argue none, thus most of them become uninformed and unreasoned non-voters once they have reached that decision that voting has no impact. I'd also argue that it is objectively so implausible that voting is equally non-impactful for all sorts of elections and across time that any person that consistently does not vote cannot plausibly be basing this in an informed assessment of the impact and instead is blindly applying a view that has become a dogma.
In sum, the people that become and stay informed and continually are willing to apply their knowledge to their decision on whether to vote are a tiny fraction of non-voters who are also the most likely to vote under some circumstances because impact objectively varies and they are supposedly informed enough to notice that and motivated enough to act on it.

I'm apathetic about voting because I know that our electoral system is highly inefficient and easily corrupted by monied interests. If I got all my talking points from AM radio comedians, maybe that information wouldn't prevent me from caring enough to vote in a Presidential election. But knowing what I know about campaigns and how they're financed, and how meaningless my contributions are on a first-past-the-post ballot, I have become apathetic about voting due to my understanding of these matters. Emotional appeals have no effect on compelling me to vote for President; in fact, literally the only thing that would make me do it is the possibility that my home state will not vote ~80% Democrat as it always has. So, to your original point, the time, effort, and cognitive processing that I devote to educating myself about American politics is why I can't be bothered to devote any time or effort to voting for President, except under very narrow circumstances.

I don't doubt you are in that tiny % of non-voters that care about the outcomes of elections but believe that you don't have an impact. However, note that you confirm my argument that this small subgroup would vote sometimes depending upon the variable impact. You don't vote presidential because you're area already goes Dem every time, but you would vote if you thought it might not. That means you are already making a decision on how you would vote, you just are not actually voting when your informed views says that the way you would vote wouldn't impact the outcome. Thus, when you don't vote there is no benefit to you actually voting, thus no benefit to coercing you to vote. In contrast, coercing all those other sub-groups of non-voters to vote would be harmful in general and even to themselves since their non-voting is tied to the same lack of motivation that would make them uninformed and subject to emotional routes to decisions that require the least effort.

Finally, I would argue that it is objectively implausible that the choice options have absolutely zero impact, despite systemic corruption and common tethering of both parties to monied and corporate interests. Thus, an informed person would only not vote if they lack sufficient concern for what differences do exist. For example, both parties are far from my ideal and corporate influence greatly concerns me. But I vote because I still recognize objective impactful differences, such as Supreme Court appointments, that are created by the objective differences between the parties that do exist, such as the type of citizens that each tries to appeal to when increasing turn-out, with republicans appealing to racist theocrats. That real difference is something I care about enough to vote on.
Now, maybe some informed non-voters do have some concern about the differences, but just greater concern for systemic corruption, so they don't vote as a form of protest to hope to change the system. That can be informed, so long as the person acknowledges the real differences between the Dems and Repubs and that their decision may harm their own interests in the short term in the hope that their "protest" vote will have long term benefits. But any non-voter that simply claims no differences between the parties is so objectively wrong that they cannot be an informed voter (not saying you are among them, because that isn't an argument you made, just one many "protest" non-voters do make). In my experience, denial of those significant differences is usually rooted in arguments fueled by an ideology of convenient cynicism or a desire to highlight particular problems (like corporate influence), even if requires taking unreasonable stances like claiming both parties are identical.
 
Informed? I think that word is not being used correctly here.
Agreed.

My observation is that the overwhelming majority of people think an "informed person" is one that agrees with them, the uninformed being those who disagree with them.

I have seen very few of the faithful among either the Democrats or Republicans who can be swayed from their opinion on an issue even when given sufficient evidence (facts) to demonstrate that they are using emotion rather than reason. They believe they are informed because they have listened to all the bias confirming speeches by the leadership of their party..
You have a point (though I would say right-wingers are more misinformed while left-wingers may be more uninformed), but I was more speaking to the OP where being misinformed while being informed. It is a contradiction. I remember Hannity or the like saying that Conservatives were the most informed because they could identify who certain people were, as if identity meant anything.

The PIPA study a while ago on Iraq showed how being dedicated to a media company can affect what you think is actually true. The illegal immigration problem for instance when illegal immigration under Obama has dropped (mainly due to the '08 slowdown). The millions who lost their insurance verses the hundreds of millions that kept theirs.
 
Care to support any of the generalizations you put in this post? If not why are you posting?

For instance what say you to the proposition that an individual well practiced in reasoning uses it as one would use a reflex.

I'd say that the entire field of cognitive science over the last 40 years shows that reason always requires more time and effort than emotional and biased responding. Reason is by definition a process of considering as much logically relevant information as possible and evaluating it in terms of its evidential support for as many alternative ideas as can be plausibly considered. That process inherently takes time, and has virtually zero properties in common with what could be labeled a "reflex", which in contrast emotions and biased thinking has much in common with. Hundreds of experiments show that when people either "rush" their judgments or are mentally taxed with thinking about other things, their decision outcomes are more greatly predicted by their a priori determined emotional biases and/or things like prejudices and stereotypes, or other common reasoning biases like presuming that the most familiar sounding answer is the correct one, etc..
Whether among average people or experts in logic and scientific reasoning, the less time and direct conscious attention they give to a decision process, the less their decision conforms to the rules of valid logic and application of relevant knowledge and the more it is shaped by current emotional states, learned emotional associations, and what are called "fast-and-frugal" heuristics.

Yet the well practiced pilot who has worked out options carries out tasks requiring much reasoning as rapidly as to similarly complicated reactive tasks. BTW: renaming a complex reasoning sequence as heuristic shorthand isn't getting there. Just sayin '..... there's no panacea or law covering reason. They can be wedged into any highly practiced regime as can both native and acquired reflexes. When performance for all practical purposes becomes errorless (eliminating error sources is part of the reasoning I consider), and seemingly automatic they fit into time regimes similar to reflexes.

What the OP is talking about has no relation to reasoning since it goes to stereotype much too fast for it to be considered reasoned.
 
Automatic registration is a half-arsed non-fix for the problem of non-deliberate non-participation.

If you are serious about democracy, you need mandatory attendance at the ballot.

People shouldn't have to cast a valid ballot, and it would be incompatible with a secret ballot to prevent them from not voting. But they should have to show up - even if their choice having done so is to cast a blank ballot.

Anything else falls short of democracy, by elevating the opinions of the enthusiasts above those of the apathetic majority.


It isn't clear that full participation is a defining feature of "democracy", but regardless there is nothing inherently positive about that or about democracy itself.
As the founders understood and often spoke about, all the positive fruits of government determined "by the people" rest in those people being informed and in making rational choices based upon how their interests are served by the factual realities and how the proposed policies would actually impact those realities.
Without the application of reason to accurate information, a "vote" is just a random act or and act emotionally manipulated by other agents. Thus, it fails to serve either of the two basic positive roles that voting can serve, which are 1) to allow people to protect their interests (which cannot be done if they lack knowledge of how the policies impact their interests), and 2) to ensure that policies best serve the collective good by having as many people as possible rationally evaluate their past and potential impacts (much like a scientific peer review process improves the validity of theories.

Adding uninformed or apathetic voters actually harms both of these purposes and thus lowers any positive value of a democratic system. Doing so not only makes the resulting policies less in service of the public good, it actually makes it less likely that they will serve the interests specifically of those uninformed or apathetic voters. Because such voters are more likely to be swayed by unreasonable emotional appeals, than facts and reason, their impact via voting makes policies that superficially appeal to emotions but not actually advance their or most people's interests and well being.

This seems like solid reasoning to me.

I've known all kinds of people who vote for literally no rational reason whatsoever. Of course, if you make voting mandatory there's going to be a subset of people who become less apathetic because of which, but the question then becomes does that subset of people balance out the negative effect of people voting because Harper fooled them into thinking he's not a fuck-stick.

The real problem is that most people are not very smart, everyone is trying to fool them, and nobody has the time to be informed. All that we can hope for is flexible and effective political systems, and populations rational enough to support good policy.
 
Back
Top Bottom