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The Netherlands, The land of no masks

TSwizzle

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This won't be received well by the authoritarians and anti-science propagandists;

For while 120 countries in the world, including much of Europe, have ordered citizens to wear masks in public places to prevent the spread of Covid-19, the Dutch are doing things differently. The nation's top scientists, having examined key data and research, have declared there is no firm evidence to back the use of face coverings. Indeed, they argue that wearing the wretched things may actually hamper the fight against disease. 'Face masks in public places are not necessary, based on all the current evidence,' said Coen Berends, spokesman for the National Institute for Public Health and the Environment. 'There is no benefit and there may even be negative impact.'

DailyMail
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Anti-science? So you cite one group of professionals that you want to agree with, while ignoring the other professionals saying to wear masks when too close to other people. Both groups say 6 ft distance.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Talk about cherry picking!

A vast number of places say masks. One doesn't and you pick that one.

That's not how science works.
 

Treedbear

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I tried to find anything that added some level of intelligence to the story and only found this:
"Face masks are ‘NOT necessary’ and could even harm the fight against coronavirus, say Holland’s top scientists"

Speaking on Wednesday, after a meeting with health experts and mayors, Dutch Medical Care Minister Tamara van Ark said: “From a medical point of view, there is no evidence of a medical effect of wearing face masks, so we decided not to impose a national obligation.”

Coen Berends, spokesman for the National Institute for Public Health and the Environment, added: “Face masks in public places are not necessary, based on all the current evidence. There is no benefit and there may even be negative impact.”

Holland’s position is based on assessments by the Outbreak Management Team, a group of experts advising the government.

It first ruled against masks in May and has re-evaluated the evidence several times, including again last week.

However Dutch residents must still wear face coverings on public transport.

Christian Hoebe, a professor of infectious diseases in Maastricht and member of the advisory team, said: “Face masks should not be seen as a magic bullet that halts the spread.

“The evidence for them is contradictory. In general, we think you must be careful with face masks because they can give a false sense of security. People think they’re immune from disease or stop social distancing. That is very negative.”

So apparently the Dutch really do have a problem with authority figures in that they insist on taking any advise they receive as a perfect and immutable solution that will protect them from any harm. No need to think about or integrate that advice into their general formula for well being. If you insist on living life as if it was a fairy tale I suggest it's more like Beowolf than Rumpelstiltskin.
 

southernhybrid

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I wonder why most of my European friends online have said not to believe anything that's in the "Daily Mail". I do think it's better to get one's information from a medical website, so here you go.

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/coronavirus/in-depth/coronavirus-mask/art-20485449

Can face masks help slow the spread of the coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) that causes COVID-19? Yes, face masks combined with other preventive measures, such as frequent hand-washing and social distancing, help slow the spread of the virus.

So why weren't face masks recommended at the start of the pandemic? At that time, experts didn't know the extent to which people with COVID-19 could spread the virus before symptoms appeared. Nor was it known that some people have COVID-19 but don't have any symptoms. Both groups can unknowingly spread the virus to others.

These discoveries led public health groups to do an about-face on face masks. The World Health Organization and the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) now include face masks in their recommendations for slowing the spread of the virus. The CDC recommends cloth face masks for the public and not the surgical and N95 masks needed by health care providers.

I think I trust the advice of the Mayo Clinic, the CDC and The WHO over the Daily Mail. The Swedes didn't follow the quidelines and they have had more cases of COVID statistically then any of the neighboring countries. And that idiot Herman Cain attended the Trump rally without wearing a mask or social distancing. He ended up dead from COVID. A friend of mine lost her father in law to the virus. He got it from his pastor after attending a church service without wearing a mask or social distancing.

And let me share a conversation that my husband had with his idiot brother who is also a dentist. They argued about the usage of masks, as the dentist Trump supporter has been running around eating in restaurants, shopping and having his new young girlfriend stay with him most nights. He said that masks don't work. So, my husband asked him if he wears a mask when he's caring for his patients. He said of course he does. So, my husband asked him why he wears the mask while caring for his patients. He answered, "Because I don't want to infect my patients." Okay. Then he went on a rant about how people don't use masks properly. That may be very true in some cases, but not wearing a mask properly doesn't mean that wearing a mask correctly doesn't help decrease the spread of the virus. If dentists, doctors and nurses wear masks to protect themselves and their patients, why shouldn't we all follow the science and do our best to wear our masks properly?

Of course, masks alone aren't the only thing we should do. We still need to keep our distance from others when shopping, and wash our hands correctly after touching potentially infected surfaces. It's not that difficult to wear a mask properly and follow the guidelines offered by medical professionals. I honestly don't understand the resistance to doing something so easy. No one is taking your rights away. You are just being asked to be a responsible citizen. WTF!

I am happy to say that everyone was wearing a mask yesterday morning when we went to the grocery store. People were acting more respectful of each other, by trying to maintain their distance. Until recently, this was rare in Georgia and now Georgia is in the top five states for viral spread. I wonder if it has anything do to with the poor leadership that is coming from our idiot governor!
 

TSwizzle

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I honestly don't understand the resistance to doing something so easy. No one is taking your rights away. You are just being asked to be a responsible citizen. WTF!

Because, as has been pointed out, there is no clear empirical evidence that wearing a face mask provides adequate protection. It is unnatural and uncomfortable to wear a face mask and people just don't want to wear them. Nobody is stopping you wearing a face mask. So if people can mind their own business about that, why don't you give them the same courtesy and mind your own business ? Or just stay home.
 

Bomb#20

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I honestly don't understand the resistance to doing something so easy. No one is taking your rights away. You are just being asked to be a responsible citizen. WTF!

Because, as has been pointed out, there is no clear empirical evidence that wearing a face mask provides adequate protection. It is unnatural and uncomfortable to wear a face mask and people just don't want to wear them. Nobody is stopping you wearing a face mask. So if people can mind their own business about that, why don't you give them the same courtesy and mind your own business ? Or just stay home.
That's civilian thinking. We're in a military situation. The viruses are an enemy air force, they're attacking our country, and they're seeking out targets. Face masks are to viruses as blackouts are to bombers.

If you leave your lights on during the air raid there's probably only a one in a thousand chance that a bomber crew will spot it and drop a bomb on you; but if a thousand people leave their lights on during the blackout the enemy will know when they're over the city and more people will get bombed. And if you leave your mask off during the epidemic there's probably only a one in a thousand chance that you're unknowingly infected and will drop viruses on the guy in front of you; but if a thousand people leave their masks off during the epidemic then somebody is going to get infected who wouldn't have, the virus's R0 number will go up and more people will get sick.

So when the air defense marshal tells everyone in the city to turn off the lights when the sun goes down, do we say turned off lights don't provide adequate protection from bombs? They don't. Do we say it's uncomfortable to be in the dark? It is. Do we say people just don't want to? People don't. Do we say nobody is stopping you from blacking out your house? Nobody is. Do we say if I can mind my business about your house's lights, why don't you give me the same courtesy and mind your business about my house's lights? You could. All those things are perfectly true. But no, that's not what we say. All that is civilian thinking. We're in a military situation. So we turn the damn lights off.
 

TSwizzle

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That's civilian thinking. We're in a military situation. The viruses are an enemy air force, they're attacking our country, and they're seeking out targets. Face masks are to viruses as blackouts are to bombers.{snip absurd}

A virus is not an enemy air force, and can no more "seek out targets" than pigs can fly.
 

Loren Pechtel

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I honestly don't understand the resistance to doing something so easy. No one is taking your rights away. You are just being asked to be a responsible citizen. WTF!

Because, as has been pointed out, there is no clear empirical evidence that wearing a face mask provides adequate protection. It is unnatural and uncomfortable to wear a face mask and people just don't want to wear them. Nobody is stopping you wearing a face mask. So if people can mind their own business about that, why don't you give them the same courtesy and mind your own business ? Or just stay home.

There is no study demonstrating the effectiveness of parachutes in jumping out of airplanes. Furthermore, there is a highly credible study (published in the BMJ at that) showing they are of no benefit. #RejectTheParachute


I'm not kidding about the study--it was really making a point about studying the right things. They were jumping from a small plane parked on the grass.

 

Bomb#20

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A virus is not an enemy air force, and can no more "seek out targets" than pigs can fly.
It's a metaphor. They might as well be an enemy air force -- they're airborne, they can kill as many of us as bombers, and effectively defending ourselves requires coordinated action. And they might as well be seeking out targets -- they're undergoing natural selection in favor of any characteristic that makes them more successful at finding targets.
 
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