The other side of Ferguson: Missouri Burning

[AthenaAwakened]

Did you know

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/21/6053811/white-on-white-murder

Yes, I am aware that the majority of crimes are either "black on black" or "white on white". what this says is that most crimes are committed amongst their own communities. Not surprising.

note that I never connected "being black" with "acting like a nigger". I come across more of that type of behavior among whites than blacks, simply due to being exposed to more whites than blacks.

the core point is that acting in a threatening manner should be expected to get one in trouble with the law.

Was the word nigger in the English language prior to the transatlantic slave trade?

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Yeah. That has been established several weeks ago.

But it agrees with your preconceptions so of course you don't think it's a Poe.

It's not a preconception. Brown really did rob a store.

Brown robbing the store is not what I was referring to. I was referring to your preconception that people supporting Brown would be stupid enough to hold up a sign like that. The picture agreed with that preconception, so you were inclined to accept it as legitimate. Despite the fact that actually looking at it for longer than about 5 seconds is enough to tell it has been photoshopped.

Narapoia,

Good observation

 

[bilby]

Yes, I am aware that the majority of crimes are either "black on black" or "white on white". what this says is that most crimes are committed amongst their own communities. Not surprising.

note that I never connected "being black" with "acting like a nigger". I come across more of that type of behavior among whites than blacks, simply due to being exposed to more whites than blacks.

the core point is that acting in a threatening manner should be expected to get one in trouble with the law.

Was the word nigger in the English language prior to the transatlantic slave trade?

That's not easy to determine. Amongst the earliest recorded usage is a 1625 document specifically referring to African slaves; however the derivation from Latin via Spanish/Portuguese, and the common use of the word for non-human objects with varieties that were notable for being black in colour (such as pearls, olives and grapes) suggests that the derivation could go either way.

It is unlikely that sufficient evidence exists to be sure either way; but if I had to guess, I would say that slaves were called 'niggers' because that was a word already in use for black varieties of commodities that can come in other colours. Either way, the word was used specifically in the context of traded commodities, so it is clearly only applicable to humans when those humans are slaves, at least in its 17th century usage.

By the 19th century, usage had changed to mean any dark skinned person - including Africans, Indians and Arabs; and it was clearly and explicitly derogatory to refer to non-Africans as 'niggers'. That it was considered acceptable for Africans (and their new world descendants), while being an insult when applied to Indians or Arabs, says a lot about the ugly attitudes of many 19th and early 20th century English speakers.

It has certainly never been a pleasant word when used to describe humans; and is not appropriate for use in reasoned discourse, except insofar as such discourse considers the word as an object rather than a descriptor.

This is particularly true given that our language is so rich as to provide the 'bon mot' for almost any occasion; If one wishes to refer to actions that are uncouth, vile, and generally unacceptable, this can be easily achieved without racial overtones by the use of the word 'cunt'. A person who is 'acting like a cunt' has no connotations regarding his racial background whatsoever. Of course, Australian English and American English do not share precisely the same idiom, so it may be that this transposition would not work to convey the intended meaning in the US. Nevertheless, I offer it as a potential alternative.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Was the word nigger in the English language prior to the transatlantic slave trade?

That's not easy to determine. Amongst the earliest recorded usage is a 1625 document specifically referring to African slaves; however the derivation from Latin via Spanish/Portuguese, and the common use of the word for non-human objects with varieties that were notable for being black in colour (such as pearls, olives and grapes) suggests that the derivation could go either way.

It is unlikely that sufficient evidence exists to be sure either way; but if I had to guess, I would say that slaves were called 'niggers' because that was a word already in use for black varieties of commodities that can come in other colours. Either way, the word was used specifically in the context of traded commodities, so it is clearly only applicable to humans when those humans are slaves, at least in its 17th century usage.

By the 19th century, usage had changed to mean any dark skinned person - including Africans, Indians and Arabs; and it was clearly and explicitly derogatory to refer to non-Africans as 'niggers'. That it was considered acceptable for Africans (and their new world descendants), while being an insult when applied to Indians or Arabs, says a lot about the ugly attitudes of many 19th and early 20th century English speakers.

It has certainly never been a pleasant word when used to describe humans; and is not appropriate for use in reasoned discourse, except insofar as such discourse considers the word as an object rather than a descriptor.

This is particularly true given that our language is so rich as to provide the 'bon mot' for almost any occasion; If one wishes to refer to actions that are uncouth, vile, and generally unacceptable, this can be easily achieved without racial overtones by the use of the word 'cunt'. A person who is 'acting like a cunt' has no connotations regarding his racial background whatsoever. Of course, Australian English and American English do not share precisely the same idiom, so it may be that this transposition would not work to convey the intended meaning in the US. Nevertheless, I offer it as a potential alternative.

When you hear the word nigger, do you think black or white?

 

[bilby]

That's not easy to determine. Amongst the earliest recorded usage is a 1625 document specifically referring to African slaves; however the derivation from Latin via Spanish/Portuguese, and the common use of the word for non-human objects with varieties that were notable for being black in colour (such as pearls, olives and grapes) suggests that the derivation could go either way.

It is unlikely that sufficient evidence exists to be sure either way; but if I had to guess, I would say that slaves were called 'niggers' because that was a word already in use for black varieties of commodities that can come in other colours. Either way, the word was used specifically in the context of traded commodities, so it is clearly only applicable to humans when those humans are slaves, at least in its 17th century usage.

By the 19th century, usage had changed to mean any dark skinned person - including Africans, Indians and Arabs; and it was clearly and explicitly derogatory to refer to non-Africans as 'niggers'. That it was considered acceptable for Africans (and their new world descendants), while being an insult when applied to Indians or Arabs, says a lot about the ugly attitudes of many 19th and early 20th century English speakers.

It has certainly never been a pleasant word when used to describe humans; and is not appropriate for use in reasoned discourse, except insofar as such discourse considers the word as an object rather than a descriptor.

This is particularly true given that our language is so rich as to provide the 'bon mot' for almost any occasion; If one wishes to refer to actions that are uncouth, vile, and generally unacceptable, this can be easily achieved without racial overtones by the use of the word 'cunt'. A person who is 'acting like a cunt' has no connotations regarding his racial background whatsoever. Of course, Australian English and American English do not share precisely the same idiom, so it may be that this transposition would not work to convey the intended meaning in the US. Nevertheless, I offer it as a potential alternative.

When you hear the word nigger, do you think black or white?

'Nigger' means 'Black'. To not think 'black' when you hear the word would be unimaginably stupid.

I am sorry if that wasn't clear from my post.

I even suggested a colour-blind alternative insult for those who insist on being scumbags without wanting to be racist scumbags.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

When you hear the word nigger, do you think black or white?

Well, I tend to think: "How does one nig?"

 

[NobleSavage]

Yo Athena,

I've always wondered, insisting that the word "nigger" is abhorrent, does it not give the racists a great word? One example I can think of is some schools removing the word from Mark Twain's books.

 

[ZiprHead]

When you hear the word nigger, do you think black or white?

Well, I tend to think: "How does one nig?"

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Yo Athena,

I've always wondered, insisting that the word "nigger" is abhorrent, does it not give the racists a great word? One example I can think of is some schools removing the word from Mark Twain's books.

You probably believe that way because you have never been called it, never had to wipe away a five year old's tears that has been called it, or seen the look of rage in 70 years old woman's eyes when she had to take hearing it and could not say a word about.

Let's just say it is complicated.

 

[NobleSavage]

Yo Athena,

I've always wondered, insisting that the word "nigger" is abhorrent, does it not give the racists a great word? One example I can think of is some schools removing the word from Mark Twain's books.

You probably believe that way because you have never been called it, never had to wipe away a five year old's tears that has been called it, or seen the look of rage in 70 years old woman's eyes when she had to take hearing it and could not say a word about.

Let's just say it is complicated.

Actually, I have. My family was lower middle class in an upper class neighborhood near Detroit. Someone told me my family was a bunch of niggers. I guess it hurts more when you are black?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

You probably believe that way because you have never been called it, never had to wipe away a five year old's tears that has been called it, or seen the look of rage in 70 years old woman's eyes when she had to take hearing it and could not say a word about.

Let's just say it is complicated.

Actually, I have. My family was lower middle class in an upper class neighborhood near Detroit. Someone told me my family was a bunch of niggers. I guess it hurts more when you are black?

Did you take it seriously? Did you think every poor white person was a nigger and had to fight everyday to prove to everyone that while niggers existed, you were not one of them? how many times a day do you doubt yourself because of a fear that those around you don't see you but only a nigger? IOW, how real was the word nigger to you, how real was your fear and dread of the word? How many doors did nigger close to you? What about the word nigger could not your whiteness overcome?

 

[NobleSavage]

Actually, I have. My family was lower middle class in an upper class neighborhood near Detroit. Someone told me my family was a bunch of niggers. I guess it hurts more when you are black?

Did you take it seriously? Did you think every poor white person was a nigger and had to fight everyday to prove to everyone that while niggers existed, you were not one of them? how many times a day do you doubt yourself because of a fear that those around you don't see you but only a nigger? IOW, how real was the word nigger to you, how real was your fear and dread of the word? How many doors did nigger close to you? What about the word nigger could not your whiteness overcome?

Oh, it was real enough. There was a black kid on my school bus and he was one of the "rich" cool kids.

 

[Malintent]

Was the word nigger in the English language prior to the transatlantic slave trade?

I am fascinated to know what the difference would be.

I have a great interest in etymology*. I have heard (unreliable tales) that the word existed prior as a reference to an unnecessary item on a boat.. and then reference to the "Monkey's Fist knot" at the end of a line (used for casting). I also heard that it existed as an adjective to reference lazy behavior prior to it being used to reference black people. But none of that is confirmed.

* what is the difference between an Etymologist and an Entomologist? (answer: an Etymologist would know).

 

[Malintent]

It has certainly never been a pleasant word when used to describe humans; and is not appropriate for use in reasoned discourse, except insofar as such discourse considers the word as an object rather than a descriptor.

Same exact situation with the words "Asian" and "Oriental". People from Asia are Asians. OBJECTS from Asia are Oriental. It is the same kind of insult to call a person from Asia "Oriental"... But, I do hear it said from time to time by those that either don't know the difference, or don't care.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The NHTSB has been called in to investigate this derailment. Everyone contact your loved ones to let them know you are alright.

In other news, there appears to be no updates on the church burning. Investigators do believe it was a deliberately set fire.

Burning down buildings is wrong. Hopefully the truth will come forth. Whether it was by rioters, anti-rioters, insurance fraud, or Thor. Jesus has not been found yet for questioning.

 

[ZiprHead]

I always thought it came from a shortened reference to black people from Niger or Nigeria.

Oh shit! Jimmy was right. The feds are breaking down my door.

 

[Derec]

Jesus has not been found yet for questioning.

It's not his MO. He'd simply have dome, overturned some tables, and whipped the parishioners.

 

[Derec]

Same exact situation with the words "Asian" and "Oriental". People from Asia are Asians. OBJECTS from Asia are Oriental.

I think that particular piece of political correctness is peculiar to US. It's generally peculiar as we do not use different adjectives for people and things from Europe or Africa etc.

It is the same kind of insult to call a person from Asia "Oriental"... But, I do hear it said from time to time by those that either don't know the difference, or don't care.

I do not think why it should be insulting. Btw, only East Asians are called "Asian" in the US whereas "Asian" in UK means South Asian, mostly Indian or Palistani.

 

[Malintent]

I do not think why it should be insulting. Btw, only East Asians are called "Asian" in the US whereas "Asian" in UK means South Asian, mostly Indian or Palistani.

We don't get to pick what is or is not insulting to another culture. People have the right to be offended (but they do not have the right to never be offended).

And it is pretty easy to see why it would be insulting. Would you not be insulted if you were referred to as an 'it' rather than a 'him' (or 'her' - whatever turns you on).

I was talking to Derec today, and it said something I disagreed with.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Did you take it seriously? Did you think every poor white person was a nigger and had to fight everyday to prove to everyone that while niggers existed, you were not one of them? how many times a day do you doubt yourself because of a fear that those around you don't see you but only a nigger? IOW, how real was the word nigger to you, how real was your fear and dread of the word? How many doors did nigger close to you? What about the word nigger could not your whiteness overcome?

Oh, it was real enough. There was a black kid on my school bus and he was one of the "rich" cool kids.

You know that's weak, right?

Six questions, one answer

BTW, "rich" kids seldom ride the bus.

 

[Derec]

[
We don't get to pick what is or is not insulting to another culture. People have the right to be offended (but they do not have the right to never be offended).

Are people themselves really offended or are the PC police offended on their behalf?

And it is pretty easy to see why it would be insulting. Would you not be insulted if you were referred to as an 'it' rather than a 'him' (or 'her' - whatever turns you on)

But that's not the same thing. For other areas we use the same adjective for things and for people. European cars but also European motorists. African food but also African chefs. We do not invent different words there out of overabundance of PC.